19:37:52 RRSAgent has joined #tagmem 19:38:17 Zakim has joined #tagmem 19:38:28 zakim, this will be TAG 19:38:28 ok, Stuart; I see TAG_Weekly()2:30PM scheduled to start 8 minutes ago 19:55:00 Norm has joined #tagmem 19:55:43 TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has now started 19:55:50 +Norm 19:57:27 +[IBMCambridge] 19:57:27 zakim, this is tag 19:57:28 Norm, this was already TAG_Weekly()2:30PM 19:57:29 ok, Norm; that matches TAG_Weekly()2:30PM 19:58:36 zakim, [IBMCambridge] is me 19:58:36 +Noah; got it 19:59:05 +Stuart 20:01:22 scribe: noah 20:01:30 scribenick: Noah 20:05:34 +DanC 20:06:30 +Roy 20:07:39 Topic: Administrivia 20:07:41 Zakim, who's on the phone? 20:07:41 On the phone I see Norm, Noah, Stuart, DanC, Roy 20:07:49 +TimBL 20:07:51 regrets: CL 20:08:01 regrets: Paul Cotton 20:08:07 regrets: Chris Lilley 20:08:09 that's all 8 of us 20:08:18 present: Noah, Norm, Stuart, Dan, Roy, Tim 20:08:44 SW: We will meet next week, Dec. 20th 20:08:52 Regrets for Dec 20: Chris 20:09:04 Zakim, pick a scribe 20:09:05 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DanC 20:09:12 Scribe for Dec. 20: Dan 20:10:27 Minutes for Dec: 6th accepted without dissent (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon- 20:10:27 20041206.html) 20:10:53 Try that again, the accepted minutes are at: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Dec/att-0009/tag-telcon-20041206.html 20:11:08 (sorry, that first one was a cut/paste error) 20:11:53 Agreement to accept minutes of F2F of Nov 29th & 30th: (http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag.html) 20:12:01 Topic: Tech Plenary 20:12:22 Steve suggests that there may be a panel or working session on Versioning at the tech plenary. 20:12:30 Stuart will talk to David Orchard tomorrow. 20:12:42 topic: WebArch Publication Status 20:12:47 s/Orchard/Ezell 20:12:56 9 Dec draft http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/#id-resources 20:13:00 9 Dec draft http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/ 20:13:37 Dan gives update on recent work on arch doc. See links immediately above. 20:13:41 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt 20:13:49 And diff link above. 20:14:16 Norm has joined #tagmem 20:14:21 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt 20:15:32 Discussing the diffs. 20:15:54 First comment is in response to comments from University of Edinburgh (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0171.html) 20:16:24 I'm going to try and paste diffs..let's see if they come over OK. 20:16:25 This document is an example of an information resource. It consists of 20:16:25 words and punctuation symbols and graphics and other artifacts that 20:16:25 can be encoded, with varying degrees of fidelity, into a sequence of 20:16:25 bits. There is nothing about the essential information content of this 20:16:25 - document that cannot in principle be transfered in a representation. 20:16:27 + document that cannot in principle be transfered in a message. In the 20:16:29 + case of this document, the message payload is the representation of 20:16:31 + this document. 20:17:04 Argh...getting behind...we are working through the diff-from-pr file. I will note any substantive discussion. 20:19:00 Dan reports "the director" is OK with all these, but has asked us as TAG to consider Nokia's comment (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html) 20:19:20 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#id-resources 20:19:27 We are discussing Nokia comment #3, regarding namespaces. 20:19:38 Nokia's comment was: 20:19:39 3. Section 4.5.3. XML Namespaces, third paragraph 20:19:39 Current Text: 20:19:39 "... If namespace URIs that end with a hash ("#") are chosen, 20:19:39 then simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local 20:19:39 name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the identified 20:19:41 term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces." 20:19:43 Replacement Text: 20:19:45 "... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local 20:19:47 name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is 20:19:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html 20:19:49 used for [RDFXML] namespaces." 20:20:46 note NM's suggestion [[ 20:20:47 Replacement Text: 20:20:47 "... Simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local 20:20:47 name creates a URI for the identified term. This technique is 20:20:47 used for [RDFXML] namespaces." 20:20:50 ]] 20:21:14 oops; that was not NM's suggestion 20:21:40 Right, that was Nokia's suggestion (to which NM actually objects) 20:22:30 Tim: minimum is clean up text: 20:22:45 [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local 20:22:45 name to creates a URI for the identified term. 20:24:11 I wish that RDFXML had added "#", but there we are. 20:24:36 Noah: I like that somewhat better than Nokia's. My concern with Nokia's is that it appears to apply even to namespaces that don't end in some sort of separator character. 20:24:55 Tim: right, and there's still the question of whether the concatenated URI is actually one that the owner intended to assign for the purpose 20:25:20 NW: I somewhat agree with Noah's concerns. Maybe we can talk about URI's ending in non-name characters? 20:27:10 Stuart: Noah, would you drop the whole para 20:27:22 NM: Yes, I guess so. 20:27:35 SW: I hear 3 proposals as follows: 20:27:45 From Norm: change reference to # to "separator characters" 20:27:49 From Noah: drop the para 20:27:56 From Tim: text quoted above? 20:28:20 SW: anyone who can't live any of these? 20:28:36 NW: yes, I don't like dropping the para (Norm, I didn't get the reason) 20:29:01 NW; drafting proposed text... 20:29:18 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/PR-webarch-20041105/#xml-namespaces 20:29:24 s/that end with a hash ("#") are/that end with a punctuation or other non-Name character are/ 20:30:16 NM: that's name char from XML rec? 20:30:18 NW: yes 20:30:27 DC: we're talking about XML namespaces here 20:32:21 I think this is the net of Norm's proposal: 20:32:22 For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. If namespace URIs that end with a that end with a punctuation or other non-Name character are chosen, then simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name creates a URI for a secondary resource (the identified term). This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces. 20:33:32 Some discussion of colon as an edge case. 20:34:57 RRSAgent, pointer? 20:34:57 See http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc#T20-34-57 20:35:16 NW: important point, we need an algorithmic way of breaking these apart once they're together. By making sure there's a non-name char, we ensure that property. 20:35:44 TBL: In webarch, is this an example? 20:35:49 NW: it's a suggestion. 20:37:47 TBL: Suggesting you can use anything other than # prejudges httprange-14, at least insofar as once you use an x/y form to refer to a non-document resource. 20:38:05 ??: Tim, do you object to the proposal to drop the text? 20:38:22 s/??/Stuart/ 20:38:30 (I sent "test case: colons in paths?" to uri@w3.org) 20:38:51 TBL: we talk about fragids elsewhere 20:39:06 q+ 20:39:53 ack Norm 20:39:54 ack norm 20:40:34 NW: perhaps we're at impasse. Nokia objects to #, Tim wants #, each feeling the other prejudges http-range14. Therefore, suggest Tim's text as best compromise. 20:40:53 NW: It mentions what RDF does, nothing more. 20:41:04 SW: I note some popular RDF namespaces end in "/" 20:41:12 reviewing, yes, I like: [[ 20:41:12 [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local 20:41:12 name to creates a URI for the identified term. ]] 20:41:46 Proposal: For flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used for many [RDFXML] namespaces. 20:42:36 (hmm... in fact, it's used for all RDFXML namespaces) 20:43:05 Note that one set of mappings, such as those which either insert a hash sign or use simple allows the local identifier in XML syntax to be equal to the the fragment identifier in the URI syntax. 20:43:47 timbl, please do not refer to hash characters. 20:44:00 Proposal: For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML] namespaces. 20:44:28 s/ namespaces.// 20:44:36 i still prefer: [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified term. 20:44:36 NM: How about /used by [RDFXML] namespaces/used by many [RDFXML] namespaces/ 20:45:24 For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML] namespaces." 20:46:08 Proposal (again with correction): "For many flat namespaces, concatenation is one useful mapping. This technique is used by [RDFXML]."" 20:46:41 TB: how about dropping work "many" 20:49:24 [[ 20:49:25 [RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified term. 20:49:26 ]] 20:49:38 NM: two problems (a) still a general problem if there is no separator at all (b) I now notice that if there's no separator, you are also prejudging http-range14 20:49:50 s/creates/create/ 20:50:43 Proposal, replace the entire paragraph with: "[RDFXML] uses simple concatenation of the namespace URI and the local name to creates a URI for the identified term." 20:51:01 Roy has joined #tagmem 20:51:01 ALso in the proposal: merge with following paragraph. 20:51:26 Agreed without dissent. 20:51:56 ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to namespace and # 20:52:08 s/Agreed with dissent./Agreed without dissentions. 20:52:11 s/Agreed with dissent./Agreed without dissentions./ 20:52:14 +Roy_Fielding 20:52:17 -Roy 20:53:07 SW: anything else to discuss with respect to webarch publication? 20:53:34 DC: You've seen press release, and there have been some comments. You only need to speak up if you want to get into the critical path. 20:53:50 DC: Goal is to get release out tomorrow, may slip to Wed. 20:54:04 NW: Slipping to Wed. would help Sun. 20:54:04 q+ to ask about Edinburgh and Stickler 20:54:26 SW: Any other testimonials expected? 20:55:10 NW: Are we satisfied that the work we've done would satisfy Edinburgh? 20:56:01 DC: The director has been in contact with commentator. 20:56:25 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt 20:56:53 @@ -2539,7 +2544,9 @@ 20:57:10 NW: Patrick Stickler has sent some additional comments about a week ago. 20:57:25 DC: see the diffs, we've made some changes. 20:59:22 Stickler: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0169.html 21:00:38 q+ 21:01:06 TBL: We seem to have dropped any mention that the namespace document is in any way connected to the URI that is the namespace name. 21:01:28 The information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI 21:01:43 + An information resource that contains useful information, 21:01:43 + machine-processable and/or human-readable, about terms in a 21:01:44 + particular XML namespace. 21:02:02 (hmm... I thought the glossary was just excerpts from the main text. not so, evidently) 21:02:08 not so 21:02:54 ^that an XML Namespace URI^ 21:02:59 ^that an XML Namespace URI identifies 21:03:05 ack norm 21:03:05 Norm, you wanted to ask about Edinburgh and Stickler and to 21:03:20 Non-scribe contribution. Note that Stickler says: 21:03:22 "I again propose to the TAG that the definition of 'namespace document' 21:03:22 not reflect any presumption about what any given URI used as a 21:03:22 namespace name might identify, but to restrict the definition of 21:03:22 'namespace document' to the distinguishing characteristics of 21:03:22 that class of resource, and at most, to indicate that it is 21:03:23 considered useful to use URIs which identify namespace documents 21:03:25 as namespace names, without erroneously asserting that every URI 21:03:27 used as a namespace name identifies a namespace document." 21:03:36 q+ 21:05:48 ack noah 21:06:38 TBL: I don't see him objecting to saying that the URI which is a namespace name can be used to identify a namespace document 21:07:01 TBL: Would Dave Ragett's (spelling?) book on HTML be a namespace document? Per our current definition, it would be. 21:07:14 (I abstain from any definitions that are written out of the context of the rest of the document.) 21:07:49 Proposal: An information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI that contains useful information, machine-usable and/or human-usable, about terms in a particular XML namespace. It is useful, though not manditory, that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace document. 21:08:03 SW: Notes that Patrick Stickler wrote: "It is useful, though not manditory, 21:08:03 that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace 21:08:03 document. 21:08:03 " 21:08:04 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0169.html 21:09:11 SW: I'm OK with it, but not sure Patrick Stickler will be. 21:09:27 NW: but if we don't put this in, then the HTML book qualifies. 21:09:43 TBL: I'm not so sure he'd object. 21:09:56 I would not expect him to object to that. 21:09:59 DC: I think the objection was to the suggestion that >every< NS URI necessarily points to such a document. 21:10:10 +1 to Norm's proposal 21:10:17 SW: Calling the question on: "Proposal: An information resource identified by an XML Namespace URI that contains useful information, machine-usable and/or human-usable, about terms in a particular XML namespace. It is useful, though not manditory, that the URI employed as a namespace name identifies a namespace document." 21:10:25 Agreed without abstention. 21:10:37 Agreed unanimously. 21:10:40 (hmm... now there are changes incoming from NDW and from IJ. interesting.) 21:13:01 NW: I've checked in already the two changes we've agreed to make today. 21:13:51 SW: anyone here in the critical path for press release? 21:13:53 DC: no 21:14:01 SW: anything more on webarch? 21:14:09 All: no 21:15:40 (hmm... who said they'd do something soon in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag ? ) 21:15:40 Topic: Issues and Findings 21:15:49 SW: any comments on the xml-chunk finding 21:16:00 NW: I've gotten some feedback, but haven't sorted it. 21:16:07 SW: possible agenda topic for next week? 21:16:09 before we break, I have one heads-up off the record. 21:16:13 NW: yes, I could do that 21:16:57 http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/11/29-30-tag#item08b 21:18:34 SW: let's have at least a brief telcon next week 21:19:22 DanC: I've checked in the two changes we discussed today, am I off the critical path for the WebArch REC? 21:19:37 hmm 21:20:02 if you prefer, yes. you're welcome to provide eyeballs on the final text, title page, SOTD, that sort of thing 21:20:21 i.e. as editor, you have right of review of the final bytes 21:20:30 Ok. I'm happy to provide eyeballs. I wasn't asking in an effort to get out of working, just to make sure we didn't have a deadlock :-) 21:23:01 ok, then I take it that you're not waiving that right, and you are, as of now, still on the critical path 21:23:15 you may wave it at any time 21:23:54 RRSAgent, make logs world-access 21:24:12 -DanC 21:24:16 -TimBL 21:24:17 -Noah 21:24:17 -Stuart 21:24:18 -Norm 21:24:19 TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended 21:24:20 Attendees were Norm, Noah, Stuart, DanC, Roy, TimBL, Roy_Fielding 21:24:25 No, I'm not waiving it. I'll keep my eyeballs tuned :-) 21:27:08 RRSAgent, pointer? 21:27:08 See http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc#T21-27-08 21:27:26 there, Noah, the logs are captured. Scribe duties include at least mailing a pointer to www-tag@w3.org 21:27:40 bonus points for editing it 21:28:31 there's a perl script that sorta makes nice HTML out of the IRC log, but if you haven't done it before, it's perhaps not worth bothering 21:31:06 hmm... I'm not entirely clear how we disposed of Nokia's 1st 2 points. 21:31:13 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html 21:31:48 ugh... no "persistence" change in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20041209/diff-from-pr.txt 21:31:51 Gack. We started with point 3 so I assumed 1 and 2 had been done earlier. 21:32:33 Personally, I'm happy with the changes they propose. 21:32:39 let's see what Ian said about those... "I think TBL input is important here so I did not make any changes" 21:32:42 phpht. 21:37:29 Norm? 21:39:50 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004OctDec/0170.html 21:40:04 RRSAgent, bye 21:40:04 I see 1 open action item: 21:40:04 ACTION: Dan to talk to Steve Bratt regarding changes to namespace and # [1] 21:40:04 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/12/13-tagmem-irc#T20-51-56