14:56:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:49 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:17 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
15:01:20 <Zakim> +Wendy
15:01:27 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
15:01:42 <wendy> wendy has joined #wai-wcag
15:01:51 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
15:01:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see Wendy, Michael_Cooper
15:02:27 <Zakim> +??P28
15:02:44 <wendy> zakim, ??P28 is Chris
15:02:44 <Zakim> +Chris; got it
15:02:46 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland
15:03:38 <ken> ken has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:44 <Zakim> +Ken_Kipnes
15:08:58 <Michael> Requirements for WCAG 2.0 Checklists and Techniques: http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2-tech-req/
15:12:56 <wendy> Requirements for UAAG 1.0 test suite http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/TS/reqs-20020208.html (not sure the latest)
15:13:47 <AliG> AliG has joined #wai-wcag
15:14:14 <wendy> Earlier draft of Tim's document: Accessibility Testing Technical Documentation (Draft) - 18 Mar 03 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003AprJun/att-0019/wai-test11.htm
15:14:54 <AliG> Having a problems with my phone will try to join the call in a few minutes.
15:16:41 <wendy> AliG? what is the error message that you hear?
15:17:44 <AliG> None, the Skype software I am using cannot connect to its proxy server.
15:19:28 <wendy> sounds like it's a skype issue. Chris had trouble using skype as well.
15:19:36 <Zakim> +??P36
15:19:55 <wendy> zakim, ??P36 is Lisa_Seeman
15:19:55 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
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15:20:26 <Zakim> +??P37
15:20:40 <wendy> zakim, ??P37 is Alistair
15:20:40 <Zakim> +Alistair; got it
15:24:59 <wendy> tb test suites for best practice?  break into best practice and conformance.
15:25:06 <wendy> mc perhaps best practice better accounted in examples
15:25:32 <wendy> mc examples should be the same throughout the document, become more detailed further into materials you get
15:25:40 <wendy> tb test suites designed to demonstrate conformance
15:25:43 <wendy> ag yes
15:25:59 <wendy> ag should be used to determine if the tasks have been achieved.
15:26:16 <wendy> ag not all tests are automatable
15:28:47 <wendy> ls instead of a test with a pass/fail, if they were educational tools. "do you have less than 3 words? if so, check that alt-text is in fact short and not adding unnecessary, additional time to surf the page" then would be less worried about them being water tight in every situation.
15:29:27 <Zakim> -Alistair
15:29:28 <wendy> cr when writing them, my focus was testing conformance and that rationale would be in other documents. wasn't thinking about best practices.
15:30:54 <Zakim> +??P37
15:31:57 <Michael> need to present this idea to the Thursday call to make sure we all agree
15:32:05 <Michael> (wac)
15:32:28 <wendy> wac speculating that next public drafts are in february/march. will be pushing for 1st public WDs of checklists and test suites.
15:37:40 <Michael> wac overview of process to get to Recommendation
15:37:49 <Michael> wac test suites don't count as implementation experience
15:38:24 <Michael> wac evaluation tools that meet test suite could count, but that wasn't originally planned, instead we just expected to have Web sites that meet WCAG
15:38:43 <Michael> wac but so many types of sites, would we have to have examples of each type, and different languages etc.?
15:42:27 <Michael> mc do we need test suites for more technologies than HTML to fit requirements?
15:42:53 <Michael> ag need to prove backwards compatibility w/ WCAG 1.0
15:43:28 <Michael> ag including css, html, image, etc., anything covered in WCAG 1.0
15:44:01 <Michael> wac test cases specific to WCAG 1.0 to demonstrate changes, or test cases that help determine if WCAG 1.0 conformant site passes 2.0?
15:44:33 <Michael> ag select test cases so we don't need for technologies like PDF that weren't in WCAG 1.0 scope
15:46:07 <wendy> mc w/out a script test suite, how validate that wcag 2.0 applies to dynamic technologies?
15:46:15 <wendy> what about DOM test suite?
15:47:15 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix
15:48:28 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
15:50:29 <Michael> http://www.w3.org/DOM/Test
15:52:06 <wendy> wac how create a test suite for scripting w/out requiring usability testing?
15:52:27 <wendy> mc are test suites defining what evaluation tools should be looking for or are they modeling what wcag 2.0 conformant code should look like or ??
15:52:40 <wendy> ag shouldn't they test whether someone has implemented the code properly?
15:53:13 <wendy> ag techniques show best practice in hope that people start using.  
15:54:40 <wendy> ag test files must support tasks
15:54:51 <wendy> mc saw last week that test files are more detailed than techniques
15:55:06 <wendy> ag that's the overlap between the top-down and bottom-up approach
15:56:06 <wendy> ag remove limiting # of chars from test file (b/c of the overlap between top-down and bottom-up approaches)
15:57:30 <wendy> kk tools have 3 levels: errors, manual, etc.
15:57:46 <wendy> ag need to idnetify the type ofimage
15:58:05 <wendy> mc length can be a clue, to trigger a closer look.
15:58:42 <wendy> mc trigger closer look when using the eval tool not be a required test for the tool developer to implmeent
15:59:11 <wendy> ls we're making classifications for other parts of the page, why not images as well?
16:00:38 <wendy> ag my comments based on work from TF3 in euroaccessibility
16:01:21 <AliG> take a look at http://www.accessinmind.com/supportEAM/ImageTech.html (its a very rough draft)...
16:04:43 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#text-equiv
16:06:20 <AliG> http://www.accessinmind.com/supportEAM/WCAG1Tasks.html
16:16:35 <Michael> wac add section to requirements for test suites, and another section for relation among techniques, checklists, test suites
16:17:24 <Michael> wac other W3C requirements documents have test suite requirements, we can use as models
16:17:32 <Michael> e.g., UAAG
16:17:59 <Michael> ag difference between methodology & test suite
16:21:55 <Michael> wac/ag: test suite tasks for evaluators, techniques tasks for authors
16:22:13 <Michael> wac open questions:
16:22:28 <Michael> relationships between documents
16:23:08 <wendy> audience of different resources
16:23:33 <wendy> checklist as set of tasks? if a dev task and need more resources, go to techniques. if eval, to test suite.
16:26:10 <wendy> action: michael, ben, chris, gregg, alistair, wendy work on draft of requirements for techs, checklists, and test suite
16:26:27 <wendy> action: jenae, tim, ken, etc. thoroughly review draft once it is sent to the list
16:27:48 <wendy> perhaps section 6: test suite and 7 relationship between techniques, checklists, and test suites
16:27:54 <wendy> audience of checklists vs test suites
16:29:11 <wendy> action: michael, chris, alistair meet friday to begin discussion
16:30:10 <Michael> wac potential concern about use of term "test suite" because of what we mean vs. what other W3C specs mean
16:30:40 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
16:31:50 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
16:36:06 <wendy> ag some of the tasks have both evaluation and repair info in the same task. e.g., task should be "dont' use font element"  repair is "use css instead"
16:37:22 <wendy> action: ag, wac, bc to get alistair set up and using bugzilla
16:38:22 <Zakim> -Alistair_Garrison
16:38:23 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:38:23 <Zakim> -Ken_Kipnes
16:38:24 <Zakim> -Wendy
16:38:25 <Zakim> -Chris
16:38:26 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
16:38:26 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:38:27 <Zakim> Attendees were Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Chris, Tim_Boland, Ken_Kipnes, Lisa_Seeman, Alistair, Alistair_Garrison
16:38:32 <Michael> rrsagent, bye
16:38:32 <RRSAgent> I see 4 open action items:
16:38:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: michael, ben, chris, gregg, alistair, wendy work on draft of requirements for techs, checklists, and test suite [1]
16:38:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/24-wai-wcag-irc#T16-26-10
16:38:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jenae, tim, ken, etc. thoroughly review draft once it is sent to the list [2]
16:38:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/24-wai-wcag-irc#T16-26-27
16:38:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: michael, chris, alistair meet friday to begin discussion [3]
16:38:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/24-wai-wcag-irc#T16-29-11
16:38:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ag, wac, bc to get alistair set up and using bugzilla [4]
16:38:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/24-wai-wcag-irc#T16-37-22