IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-11-10

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:36 [RRSAgent]
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15:00:39 [Zakim]
15:00:41 [Michael]
rrsagent, make logs world
15:00:51 [Zakim]
15:01:22 [Zakim]
+ +
15:01:36 [Becky]
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15:02:05 [Zakim]
15:02:16 [Zakim]
15:02:24 [ken]
ken has joined #wai-wcag
15:02:58 [Zakim]
15:03:02 [ben]
zakim, ??P11 is Ben
15:03:02 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
15:03:23 [Zakim]
15:05:39 [David_MacDonald]
David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag
15:05:40 [Michael]
zakim, +46 is Alistair_Garrison
15:05:40 [Zakim]
+Alistair_Garrison; got it
15:05:51 [ChrisR]
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15:05:52 [David_MacDonald]
15:08:17 [Zakim]
15:08:53 [wendy]
wendy has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:38 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:09:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], ??P5, ??P7, ??P8, ??P6, Alistair_Garrison, Tim_Boland, Becky_Gibson, Matt, Ben, Michael_Cooper, Wendy
15:11:04 [wendy]
fyi michael: looks like we ended with 9.1 and 9.2 last time:
15:11:53 [wendy]
Topic: test suite. Chris added files to the test suite from the Oracle tests after discussion with Ken
15:12:04 [Michael]
Other participants are David MacDonald, Ken Kipness, Chris Ridpath, Lisa Seeman - but don't know the order they joined
15:12:27 [David_MacDonald]
ken was before me, lisa was after me.
15:13:01 [wendy]
bc part of the baseline discussion is assuming that uaag 1.0 is met and what is the author responsibility? where uaag 1.0 not met (deficiencies in user agents) then author's have repair techniques.
15:13:21 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
15:13:32 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
15:13:43 [wendy]
zakim, ??P5 may be Chris
15:13:43 [Zakim]
+Chris?; got it
15:13:54 [AliG]
AliG has joined #wai-wcag
15:13:55 [wendy]
zakim, ??P7 may be Ken
15:13:55 [Zakim]
+Ken?; got it
15:14:07 [wendy]
zakim, ??P8 may be David
15:14:07 [Zakim]
+David?; got it
15:14:12 [wendy]
zakim, ??P6 may be Lisa
15:14:12 [Zakim]
+Lisa?; got it
15:14:22 [wendy]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenae
15:14:22 [Zakim]
+Jenae; got it
15:14:28 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:14:28 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jenae, Chris?, Ken?, David?, Lisa?, Alistair_Garrison, Tim_Boland, Becky_Gibson, Matt, Ben, Michael_Cooper, Wendy
15:14:29 [David_MacDonald]
I tink I'm p6
15:14:40 [wendy]
zakim, who's talking?
15:14:51 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Lisa? (13%), David? (95%)
15:15:04 [wendy]
zakim, David is Lisa_Seeman
15:15:04 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
15:15:20 [wendy]
zakim, Lisa is Chris_Ridpath
15:15:20 [Zakim]
+Chris_Ridpath; got it
15:15:34 [wendy]
zakim, Ken? is David_MacDonald
15:15:34 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
15:15:49 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:15:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jenae, Chris?, David_MacDonald, Lisa_Seeman, Chris_Ridpath, Alistair_Garrison, Tim_Boland, Becky_Gibson, Matt, Ben, Michael_Cooper, Wendy
15:16:01 [wendy]
zakim, Chris is Ken_Kipnes
15:16:01 [Zakim]
+Ken_Kipnes; got it
15:16:30 [wendy]
zakim's early morning brain teasers
15:20:16 [wendy]
discussion about test file for labeling forms
15:21:33 [wendy]
mc proposes putting a summary of this discsussion either in the test or in bugzilla.
15:23:12 [wendy]
@@chris will input summary of that discussion
15:23:23 [wendy]
next: at least one printable character in a form
15:23:31 [wendy]
text or img w/alt-tet
15:23:57 [wendy]
issue of "null label"
15:24:25 [wendy]
cr will modify to look for img with alt
15:24:32 [wendy]
label must describe the control
15:25:05 [wendy]
requires more work (describe? best word?)
15:25:10 [wendy]
label must refer to the control
15:25:21 [wendy]
e.g., bad example, "()" is not a good label
15:25:47 [wendy]
provide some indication of function?
15:26:13 [wendy]
Test: autorefresh - may be accessible if you can opt into it
15:27:03 [wendy]
the default of the page is to not autorefresh but there is a mode that says, "i want to reffresh" and it would set an interval
15:28:17 [wendy]
that last one is likely a "repair" technique. UAAG 1.0 checkpoint 2.4 Allow time-independent interaction (P1) should cover
15:28:21 [wendy]
15:28:54 [wendy]
ls would like to see more info about testing with users
15:29:04 [wendy]
mc need for disclaimer about what the test suite is for
15:29:21 [wendy]
ls many of the proposed tests have exceptions
15:29:36 [David_MacDonald]
chrishey chris can you drop your test case URL in IRQ
15:30:34 [David_MacDonald]
typo :-)
15:32:19 [wendy]
ja anxious to go through test cases. reminds us that we said we'd start in november, but haven't yet.
15:33:28 [wendy]
timing? plan is for internal drafts on tues 16 nov, then blessing on thursday 18 nov for publication on 18 or 19.
15:35:45 [wendy]
ag idea is to look at techniques documents in relation to wcag 1.0 to ensure that they are all there. doing reality checks against best practice today.
15:36:04 [wendy]
ag produce evaluation documentation based on wcag 2.0 but tied with wcag 1.0 (to help transition)
15:36:21 [wendy]
ag looking at all documents, restructuring slightly and discovering where the gaps are.
15:36:40 [wendy]
ag looking at test suites and to bind conditional statements. plan to have ready by 15 december.
15:38:41 [wendy]
ag if someone uses a gif, need to know about contrast.
15:38:59 [wendy]
ag concern about using techs together and that our techs docs are separate
15:39:59 [wendy]
mc we have some people who have looked at mappings and transition (e.g., David's mapping of 1.0 to 2.0 techniques)
15:40:51 [wendy]
next week: spend at least 1/2 the call walking through test files
15:41:35 [wendy]
back to contentious html techniques
15:42:40 [wendy]
voting results:
15:43:15 [wendy]
html techs draft:
15:44:09 [wendy]
15:44:29 [wendy]
mc if point to diff locations, shouldn't be combined
15:45:34 [wendy]
ls may want to go to the same place for different reasons
15:46:09 [wendy]
bg shouldn't have an img next to a duplicate text link
15:46:46 [wendy]
mc not a huge barrier but annoying
15:46:56 [wendy]
dmd annoying in general, or more so for someone with a disability
15:47:29 [wendy]
mc graphicaly the 2 links are perceived as one link
15:47:41 [wendy]
dmd why is it done?
15:47:59 [wendy]
mc it's often an icon that emphasizes "read more"
15:48:33 [wendy]
bg can be diffcult to make it one link. often want a button that has an img on it
15:48:44 [wendy]
dmd annoying enough can call an accessibility issue?
15:48:58 [wendy]
bg screen reader will hear it twice and keyboard user will hit it twice
15:49:43 [wendy]
mc 4 votes for making level 3, perhaps where it belongs
15:50:04 [wendy]
hide link groups -
15:50:12 [wendy]
all votes were either optional or kill
15:50:20 [wendy]
many people didn't understand it
15:51:12 [wendy]
mc should be just about hiding the skip link
15:51:25 [wendy]
mc right after technique describing providing a skip link
15:51:37 [wendy]
bg for keyboard users, there is no advantage to hiding them
15:52:35 [wendy]
wac combine with providing skip link?
15:52:45 [wendy]
bg some are css
15:53:13 [wendy]
mc try not to hide them, but if need to, here are accessible ways to do it.
15:55:26 [wendy]
summary: keep it separate (checklist reasons), clean it up, mark as optional
15:55:42 [wendy]
9.9 link separation
15:56:18 [wendy]
bg is not technology-specific
15:56:33 [wendy]
m3m the user agent should be responsible for doing this
15:57:22 [wendy]
remove to transitional/fallback or removed completely?
15:57:50 [Zakim]
15:58:08 [wendy]
bc only issue is with browsers that are 7-8 years old
15:58:20 [wendy]
bg however, needs to create a bridge from 1.0 (since existed there)
15:58:35 [wendy]
mc recommendation - don't use this anymore
15:59:06 [wendy]
mc perhaps a special category that 1.0 talked about, we ought to talk about. in some cases say "no longer required" or "here's the new requirement"
15:59:12 [wendy]
bc an appendix or transition materials?
15:59:22 [wendy]
dmd appendix of deprecated techniques
16:00:31 [wendy]
action: michael figure out what to do about techniques that exist solely b/c they were mentioned in wcag 1.0
16:00:55 [wendy]
action 1 = michael move techniques that exist b/c they were in 1.0 but are deprecated to an appendix
16:01:40 [wendy]
9.11 and 9.12
16:01:42 [wendy]
16:01:48 [wendy]
16:02:01 [wendy]
kill both: User agents should handle
16:02:28 [wendy]
bc at the repair level, tabindex and accesskey might end up being repair strategies (but for different reasons that from those mentioned here)
16:03:02 [wendy]
action: michael remove 9.11 and 9.12
16:03:21 [wendy]
9.13 popups
16:03:22 [wendy]
16:04:06 [wendy]
1. if creating new windows, do programmatically identifiable way 2. if creating a new window that is not easily prog. i.d., (script), inform the user
16:04:32 [wendy]
bc informing the user - repair tech?
16:05:05 [wendy]
bc is there a way to cause a pop-up that is not prog. i.d.?
16:05:41 [wendy]
mc if created a javascript function to open a window, asst. tech would not likely parse all the javascript to determine.
16:05:47 [wendy]
bg perhaps script tech to set focus to that window
16:06:00 [wendy]
bc if ua mtg uaag, then user has control over
16:06:09 [wendy]
mc wanring user is still in fallback techs
16:06:22 [wendy]
bc only tech is a repair tech, "inform users when pop-ups are created"
16:07:22 [wendy]
mc problem with wording, "prog i.d.?"
16:09:24 [wendy]
mc issue with guideline "explicit notice is given..."
16:09:36 [wendy]
mc 2 techs, but ednote that have quesitons about guideline and if this should exst
16:12:04 [wendy]
16:12:22 [wendy]
bg shouldn't outlaw something that's in html. there are valid reasons for using title.
16:12:30 [wendy]
mc didn't want title to be confused with alt
16:12:34 [wendy]
mc particularly img in links
16:15:00 [wendy]
mc if you do use title on img, also use alt
16:15:11 [wendy]
mc if you use title, it is conditional content that doesn't replace alt
16:15:44 [wendy]
mc title could be more extended, that may want in tooltip
16:16:08 [wendy]
bc user agent can query for presence of title. leave it to user to ask for it.
16:16:46 [wendy]
either 1. remove the technique or 2. say something more concrete about diffs between alt and title
16:17:06 [wendy]
dmd say, "title is not use consistently..."
16:17:21 [wendy]
bg use according to spec
16:17:50 [wendy]
bc could put title on 'a' element
16:18:12 [wendy]
bc what would a stand alone img title?
16:18:29 [wendy]
bg other info about the image
16:20:33 [wendy]
bc need clarification in uaag 1.0
16:20:39 [wendy]
mc would it clarify our technique?
16:20:46 [wendy]
bc would make this tech less necessary
16:20:55 [wendy]
bc ther would be a query model to get at that info
16:21:23 [ChrisR]
(Capturing Lisa's comment) Lisa suggested that not all controls required a label. Some simple forms,
16:21:23 [ChrisR]
such as a login form, with only one control did not require a label.
16:21:46 [wendy]
1. ednote? 2. bugzilla?
16:22:56 [wendy]
bc uaag 2.3 - "allows conditional content to be rendered in place of..." none of this is implemented well in user agents, but problem where title can be conditional content for other text.
16:23:17 [wendy]
bc could end up replacing text in link with content of title and then sentence wouldn't make sense anymore.
16:23:33 [wendy]
bc unless the user has ability to query for value of conditional content, potential fo rcreating confusion.
16:24:37 [wendy]
wac proposes ben sends to UAWG to discuss
16:25:09 [wendy]
ben expects to have a few questions to send to UAWG after Matt and Ben finish analysis
16:25:54 [wendy]
action: michael remove 10.4 and add issue to bugzilla
16:26:45 [wendy]
16:27:14 [Zakim]
16:27:54 [wendy]
publishing public drafts next week
16:28:00 [wendy]
CSS - lots of things to get caught up on
16:28:10 [wendy]
HTML - many changes to make based on discussions (similar to CSS)
16:28:31 [wendy]
General - will have holes, but ask people to look at and comment about structure
16:32:29 [wendy]
scripting - since uaag baseline issue effects it most and planning to add paragraph to intro of wcag 2.0, add paragraph to intro of scripting and perhaps a more detaile dparagraph about how would effect
16:32:47 [wendy]
action: matt and wendy work on intro for scripting
16:33:02 [wendy]
please review the drafts before next wednesday. will discuss
16:33:10 [wendy]
next week - 2 hour call?
16:33:32 [Zakim]
16:33:34 [Zakim]
16:33:35 [Zakim]
16:33:35 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
16:33:36 [Zakim]
16:33:36 [Zakim]
16:33:37 [Zakim]
16:33:38 [Zakim]
16:33:39 [Zakim]
16:33:40 [Zakim]
16:33:41 [Zakim]
16:33:43 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:33:45 [Zakim]
Attendees were +, Tim_Boland, Becky_Gibson, Matt, Ben, Michael_Cooper, Alistair_Garrison, Wendy, Chris?, David?, Lisa?, Jenae, Lisa_Seeman, Chris_Ridpath,
16:33:48 [Zakim]
... David_MacDonald, Ken_Kipnes
16:34:05 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log public
16:34:10 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
17:01:09 [wendy]
zakim, bye
17:01:09 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:03:27 [Michael]
rrsagent, bye
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 4 open action items:
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael move techniques that exist b/c they were in 1.0 but are deprecated to an appendix [1]
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael remove 9.11 and 9.12 [2]
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael remove 10.4 and add issue to bugzilla [3]
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: matt and wendy work on intro for scripting [4]
17:03:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in