14:30:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:30:21 <Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
14:30:24 <Zakim> -??P0
14:30:25 <Zakim> +??P0
14:30:30 <Zakim> +DanC
14:30:38 <Zakim> +??P3
14:30:40 <AndyS> zakim, ??P3 is AndyS
14:30:40 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:30:44 <Zakim> +Farrukh
14:30:56 <Zakim> +??P5
14:31:05 <SimonR> Zakim, ??P0 is SimonR
14:31:05 <Zakim> +SimonR; got it
14:31:09 <kendall> hmm, 9:30 here in the DC part of the east coast :>
14:31:46 <kendall> someone calling in from a kitchen :>
14:32:13 <Zakim> +??P6
14:32:40 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
14:32:51 <DB-scribe> regrets from .. Hiroyuki Sato
14:33:02 <DB-scribe> regrets from Yoshio Fukushige
14:33:02 <DanC> regrets Yoshio Fukushige
14:33:08 <DB-scribe> and Alberto Reggiori
14:34:43 <DB-scribe> minutes of prev meeting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0210.html
14:34:53 <FarrukhNajmi> FarrukhNajmi has joined #dawg
14:34:54 <DB-scribe> don't seem to be in agenda
14:34:57 <Zakim> + +3249456aaaa
14:34:57 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonR, Kendall_Clark, DanC, AndyS, Farrukh, JanneS, DaveB, +3249456aaaa
14:35:15 <kendall> hi jos
14:35:38 <DB-scribe> we had regrets from SteveH earlier IIRC
14:36:14 <DB-scribe> 0210 accepted as minutes
14:36:26 <DB-scribe> ericp is chair of next telcon 
14:36:39 <DB-scribe> donm is 2004-11-16
14:36:58 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:36:58 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark
14:36:59 <kendall> I'm at risk because of XML 2004
14:37:08 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:37:08 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose SimonR
14:37:15 <DB-scribe> scribe is SimonR
14:37:24 <DanC> regrets: DanC for 16 Nov, 23 Nov, 30 Nov
14:37:38 <DB-scribe> (regrets for me 23, 30th also)
14:37:44 <DanC> agenda + next SPARQL WD: timing, reviewers
14:37:47 <kendall> Anyone attending XML 2004 in DC next week?
14:37:53 <DB-scribe> DanC: can you move Zakim onto new agendums?
14:38:03 <Zakim> -JosD
14:38:12 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 1
14:38:12 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0244.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:33 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:38:33 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, DanC
14:38:36 <DanC> Zakim, close agendum 1
14:38:36 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
14:38:37 <Zakim> I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:38 <Zakim> 2. Use Cases [from DanC]
14:38:39 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 2
14:38:39 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Use Cases" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:50 <DanC> Zakim, who's talking
14:38:50 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's talking', DanC
14:38:58 <DanC> Zakim, who is making noise?
14:39:08 <Zakim> DanC, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: SimonR (0%), Farrukh (33%), AndyS (10%), DanC (56%)
14:39:16 <Zakim> +JosD
14:39:59 <DB-scribe> EricP went to .. workshop got use case, not appeared so far
14:40:08 <DB-scribe> kendall work on stuff in 0205
14:40:12 <AndyS> Background here should be less
14:40:47 <DB-scribe> EricP action done
14:40:50 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:40:50 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ftf 4" taken up [from DanC]
14:41:14 <DB-scribe> re 2 - not much wg excitement re use case
14:41:58 <TomAdams> TomAdams has joined #dawg
14:42:04 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:42:04 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:42:29 <kendall> bummer: next f2f is same day as Bush's inauguration, which I was hoping to protest. Suck!
14:42:33 <DB-scribe> ACTION DanC: Make a dawg f2f4 registration form
14:42:39 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:42:39 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:42:52 <TomAdams> zakim, Tucana is TomAdams
14:42:52 <Zakim> sorry, TomAdams, I do not recognize a party named 'Tucana'
14:42:54 <Zakim> +[Tucana]
14:42:56 <TomAdams> zakim, Tucana is TomAdams
14:42:56 <Zakim> +TomAdams; got it
14:43:05 <DB-scribe> JanneS to elaborate further on currency, other details in email to lsit
14:43:16 <DanC> welcome TomAdams 
14:43:50 <DB-scribe> what's the weather - could be 0C, or -20C says Jannes - bring a good jacket
14:43:54 <kendall> whew!
14:44:10 <DB-scribe> helsinki to espoo - in rush hour, could be 20m
14:45:22 <kendall> great to know
14:45:28 <kendall> +10
14:45:30 <DB-scribe> slight pref to Helsinki, I heard from JanneS - walking around, things to see
14:45:35 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:45:35 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ftf 5" taken up [from DanC]
14:45:59 <DB-scribe> continue EricP action:
14:46:05 <DB-scribe> ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March  28 Feb - 4 Mar (2 days).  Some WG preference to Mon/Tue of that week. some progress: 
14:47:38 <DB-scribe> notes only TomA on both swbpd wg and da wg
14:47:42 <DB-scribe> also JosD, PatH
14:47:51 <DB-scribe> scheduling nightmare
14:48:11 <TomAdams> Tom is happy to have an overlap, Dave Wood, Tucana's CTO is co-chair of SWBP
14:48:25 <DB-scribe> AndyS - swig meeting say about sparql
14:48:29 <DB-scribe> DanC - also on plenary day
14:48:31 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:48:31 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Protocol, Interoperability Demonstration Services" taken up [from DanC]
14:49:15 <DB-scribe> protocol draft
14:49:20 <DB-scribe> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0255.html
14:49:32 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0255.html http://monkeyfist.com/kendall/sparql-protocol/
14:49:58 <DB-scribe> too long to read now, for me
14:50:48 <DB-scribe> KC - didn't want to specify a min protocol with 1 method, got 7 methods, all orthoganal
14:51:00 <DB-scribe> trying to make it possible to get consensu on diffefrrent methods without affecting the others
14:51:29 <DB-scribe> reflects things we (mindlab) wants to do with rdf queries
14:52:26 <DB-scribe> abstract protocol (5) and a concrete one (7) with http
14:52:31 <DB-scribe> with examples for all the methods in http
14:52:36 <DB-scribe> at http://monkeyfist.com/kendall/sparql-protocol/#http
14:53:20 <DB-scribe> KC - deadset against hardocidng query parametsr for a number of reasons
14:53:48 <DB-scribe> [GRAPH_ID] is standing in for some param, not actually using that particular word
14:55:02 <ericP> .. and probes an ally for bare wires
14:55:50 <DB-scribe> ACTION TomA, JanneS: read the protocol draft http://monkeyfist.com/kendall/sparql-protocol/ and email a review to the WG before next telcon
14:57:16 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:57:16 <Zakim> agendum 6. "SPARQL update, issues" taken up [from DanC]
14:57:38 <kendall> jos:  heh :>
14:58:45 <DB-scribe> eric's actions continued
14:59:01 <DB-scribe> ACTION EricP: supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0151.html
14:59:10 <DB-scribe> ACTION PatH review SPARQL def'ns post-publication
14:59:20 <DB-scribe> ACTION PatH: review SPARQL def'ns post-publication
14:59:25 <ericP> ddd
14:59:32 <DB-scribe> ACTION AndyS: to write a test cases which use ? and $ in the same query
15:00:13 <DB-scribe> DanC asks for somebody else to help on comments list reading, responsing
15:00:31 <DB-scribe> AndyS - missing some things for recording for future work
15:00:32 <DB-scribe> see http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/
15:00:42 <DB-scribe> TomA happy to do that, but I'm half a slacker ;)
15:01:01 <AndyS> The work is bursty - current going quiet - next WD ...
15:01:07 <AndyS> ... then LC.
15:01:14 <kendall> I can help with the next burst, I suspect.
15:01:23 <DB-scribe> TomC is the comment reading, responding person - will get poked by DanC if necessary :)
15:01:32 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:01:32 <Zakim> agendum 7. "SOURCE Issue" taken up [from DanC]
15:01:39 <DB-scribe> my msg on SOURCE http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0241.html
15:02:01 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone
15:02:01 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', DanC
15:02:03 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:02:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see SimonR, Kendall_Clark, DanC, AndyS, Farrukh, JanneS, DaveB, JosD, TomAdams
15:02:55 <DB-scribe> DanC read it, endorses it
15:03:06 <DB-scribe> AndyS read it, some questions and want a grip on the detail
15:03:13 <DB-scribe> s/a/to get a/
15:03:19 <DB-scribe> questions to the list
15:04:17 <DB-scribe> Farrukh - there are use cases where the source of the data is significant; not read this email yet
15:04:28 <DB-scribe> JanneS - not digested yet
15:05:40 <DB-scribe> ACTION JanneS: review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0256.html and check what happens when no source support is implemented
15:05:58 <DB-scribe> JosD - read it, issue when source is unbound
15:07:09 <DB-scribe> got issue when there is no binding
15:07:19 <DB-scribe> DB - need to see an example
15:08:09 <DB-scribe> KendallC - quickly reading it
15:09:45 <kendall> my nomenclature "Operation Target Set"
15:09:52 <kendall> since I have non-query operations
15:10:00 <DB-scribe> suggestion to change Query Graph
15:10:03 <DB-scribe> DB - to Data Graph
15:11:09 <DB-scribe> suggestions Federated Graph
15:11:12 <DB-scribe> for QG
15:11:12 <AndyS> "Aggregated" is the term we used in UC&R discussions
15:11:14 <DB-scribe> or Set
15:12:42 <AndyS> I have an implementation that (first pass) seems close but a little different
15:13:05 <DB-scribe> ACTION DaveB: update the test repository to record or amend tests to correspond to the http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0241.html proposal
15:13:36 <DanC> ACTION DanC: suggest formal definitions for SOURCE
15:13:49 <DanC> ... perhaps using larch tools
15:14:17 <DB-scribe> DaveB ACTION is done
15:14:34 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:14:34 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Disjunction issue" taken up [from DanC]
15:14:59 <DB-scribe> ^- above action is the agenda action for Daveb item5, done
15:15:14 <DB-scribe> SimonR been reading things...
15:15:32 <DB-scribe> and now LEFT OUTER JOIN - can't figure out what it means
15:16:44 <DB-scribe> with disj you generate NULLS - this var is not bound in this soln
15:16:46 <AndyS> SQL LEFT OUTER JOIN presumably
15:16:57 <DB-scribe> for a LOJ, you generate NULLS to preserve values which have 0 answers
15:17:04 <DB-scribe> - no idea what those NULLs mean
15:17:14 <DB-scribe> unless they mean the same things as those in disj(unction)
15:17:27 <DB-scribe> so maybe proving optional can't be used to implement disjunction
15:17:53 <DB-scribe> SimonR - cannot answer the last line as yes/no yet
15:18:17 <DB-scribe> as AndyS has written, has defined things as unbound
15:18:41 <DanC> ericp, my action regards terms like "queried graph" and "graph name" and such
15:18:43 <DB-scribe> AndyS - is that not related to the optional scoping rule
15:19:05 <DB-scribe> LOJ is not defined algebratically
15:19:13 <DB-scribe> so is hard to combine with other things such as disj
15:19:19 <ericP> danc, gotcha
15:19:20 <DB-scribe> ^-SR
15:19:44 <DB-scribe> SR - if I have an optional result, I can't look at each soln and interpret what it means.
15:19:56 <DB-scribe> For everything else, a solution like ?x=foo ?y=bar
15:20:05 <DB-scribe> with a LOJ, hard to work out what it means
15:20:46 <DB-scribe> having problem forming an example, or help in the literature to find an interpretation
15:21:59 <DB-scribe> ACTION Simon: explain how much of disjuction can be done with optionals, nested or otherwise.  Point to references, problems with LEFT OUTER JOIN in the literature.
15:22:20 <DB-scribe> AndyS suggests looking at JosD's tests
15:22:36 <DB-scribe> JosD - keep the variable name in the soln
15:23:06 <DanC> ... herberand universe ...
15:26:39 <DB-scribe> record is sketchy here, not following it
15:26:57 <DB-scribe> ACTION SteveH: own (i.e. propose resolution to) disjunction issue
15:27:03 <DB-scribe> ACTION SteveH: owns issue 'nested optionals'
15:27:10 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:27:10 <Zakim> agendum 9. "next SPARQL WD: timing, reviewers" taken up [from DanC]
15:27:26 <SimonR> The main suspicion I have is that the nulls generated by the left outer join sort-of-mean "there are no values for this variable", whereas the "unconstrained" markers generated by disjunction mean almost exactly the opposite, that the variable could take any value without invalidating the proposition.
15:28:39 <ericP> simon, i'm curious how those differ
15:28:44 <ericP> (practicallt)
15:28:48 <ericP> (practically)
15:29:14 <SimonR> EricP: Well, imagine how equality works between them, joining, etc....
15:30:03 <DB-scribe> schedule thoughts
15:33:49 <ericP> simon, i've not seen a practical problem with SQL in which NULL != NULL
15:35:00 <DB-scribe> timeliness
15:35:58 <DB-scribe> Farrukh says around April 2005 would be a great time to have a CR sparql query.  earliest.
15:36:10 <DanC> Farrukh: the project I'm involved in, an open source implementation of EBXML, isn't likely to integrate SPARQL until April 2005... so a Candidate Recommendation at that point would be good.
15:36:33 <DanC> ACTION DanC: notify SemWeb CG of EbXML possible sync point in April
15:36:54 <DB-scribe> DaveB, AndyS, SteveH, EricP potentially doing www2005 tutorial, may 2050
15:36:55 <DB-scribe> 2005
15:37:02 <kendall> i have same conference concerns, FWIW
15:37:27 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:37:27 <Zakim> I do not see any non-closed agenda items, DanC
15:37:44 <DB-scribe> (belated regrets from HowardK)
15:37:56 <TomAdams> q+ To talk about spec quickly...
15:38:03 <DB-scribe> AndyS - UNSAID
15:38:12 <DB-scribe> ... want to raise the barrier to features coming in
15:38:52 <DB-scribe> not clear there is yet requirement for unsaid.  WD1 said likely to be dropped
15:38:59 <DB-scribe> ... may become more likely
15:39:15 <DB-scribe> DanC will track this decision via an issue
15:39:41 <DanC> ack TomAdams 
15:39:50 <DB-scribe> TomC - spec question on going to CR
15:40:09 <DB-scribe> Kowari release early Dec, could start impl early Jan
15:40:15 <Zakim> -JosD
15:40:28 <kendall> hmm, /me adds .AU to Expatriation Target Set :)
15:40:31 <DB-scribe> (Tucana) Dave wanted to know when things stable
15:40:40 <AndyS> UK likes long vacation over XMas as well.  Not for the beach though
15:41:01 <kendall> US *likes*  long holiday over Xmas, it's just that our Evil Overlords don't permit it!
15:41:40 <AndyS> Timepoint: W3C TechPlenary
15:41:41 <DB-scribe> TA - April/May would suite for a CR, new software relase
15:45:12 <DanC> yes, toys to play with is a big deal in getting feedback
15:46:10 <DanC> ADJOURN.
15:46:11 <DB-scribe> reported my toy http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0174.html
15:46:14 <Zakim> -Farrukh
15:46:15 <Zakim> -JanneS
15:46:19 <JosD> believes that Jan 2005 last call will be hard (is new language and not like 5 year old N3)
15:46:29 <Zakim> -DanC
15:46:30 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:47:08 <AndyS> Simon?
15:47:18 <ericP> cheers all
15:47:24 <SimonR> AndyS: Yes?
15:47:38 <SimonR> EricP: See you later.
15:47:41 <AndyS> We said we'd talk about interoperablity
15:47:54 <DanC> thanks much for the thoughts on the schedule, everybody. I was starting to worry alone, and starting to get grumpy as a result.
15:48:02 <SimonR> Sure.  On the phone, or just IRC?
15:48:22 <AndyS> Phone (if Tom will allow it)
15:48:24 <FarrukhNajmi> FarrukhNajmi has left #dawg
15:48:43 <SimonR> AndyS: We can queue up.  :)
15:48:48 <AndyS> q+
15:48:56 <AndyS> ack TomAdams
15:48:56 <Zakim> TomAdams, you wanted to talk about spec quickly...
15:49:42 <AndyS> Cough, cough
15:51:00 <AndyS> ack AndyS
15:51:16 <TomAdams> q+ To hassles Simon to review the Kowari paper ;)
15:53:28 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
15:53:31 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
15:53:49 <kendall> later, guys. i need lunch soon. :)
15:54:18 <TomAdams> Good luck guys ;) Simon, if you're not too tired, please take a look at that Kowari paper I sent you. It needs to be submitted in a few hours. Thanks!
15:54:23 <Zakim> -TomAdams
15:56:29 <AndyS> http://www.sparql.org/
15:57:00 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0220.html
16:17:32 <Zakim> -SimonR
16:17:34 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:17:35 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()9:30AM has ended
16:17:36 <Zakim> Attendees were Kendall_Clark, DanC, AndyS, Farrukh, SimonR, JanneS, DaveB, +3249456aaaa, JosD, [Tucana], TomAdams
16:40:46 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
16:40:56 <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> I see 12 open action items:
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to Make a dawg f2f4 registration form [1]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T14-42-33
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March  28 Feb - 4 Mar (2 days).  Some WG preference to Mon/Tue of that week. some progress:  [2]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T14-46-05
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0151.html [3]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T14-59-01
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH to review SPARQL def'ns post-publication [4]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T14-59-20
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: AndyS to to write a test cases which use ? and $ in the same query [5]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T14-59-32
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: JanneS to review http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0256.html and check what happens when no source support is implemented [6]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-05-40
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DaveB to update the test repository to record or amend tests to correspond to the http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0241.html proposal [7]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-13-05
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to suggest formal definitions for SOURCE [8]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-13-36
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Simon to explain how much of disjuction can be done with optionals, nested or otherwise.  Point to references, problems with LEFT OUTER JOIN in the literature. [9]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-21-59
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SteveH to own (i.e. propose resolution to) disjunction issue [10]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-26-57
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SteveH to owns issue 'nested optionals' [11]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-27-03
16:40:56 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to notify SemWeb CG of EbXML possible sync point in April [12]
16:40:56 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/09-dawg-irc#T15-36-33