14:55:36 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:58:53 ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag 14:59:10 ken has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:16 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started 15:00:23 +[Microsoft] 15:00:57 +??P6 15:01:23 +Michael_Cooper 15:02:04 +Wendy 15:02:15 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 15:02:37 +??P8 15:02:38 +Becky_Gibson 15:02:44 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 15:03:32 +??P10 15:05:05 Andi has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:23 Andi has left #wai-wcag 15:07:50 ben has joined #wai-wcag 15:07:51 +John_Slatin 15:09:09 ken email = ken.kipnes@oracle.com 15:13:26 oracle has an internal tool that covers a combination of 508 and wcag. ken has a series of tests. chris and ken will discuss. 15:13:41 next week: talk about how tests are evolving 15:15:08 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20040730/ 15:15:25 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/ 15:18:47 html issues which were (per straw poll) identified as contentious (i.e., differences in opinion about priority): 1.3 (address element to i.d. author), 2.4 (collection info - link element), 3.1 (section headings), 5.2 (abbr), 5.3 (acronym) 15:19:14 5.4 (blink), 5.5 (marquee ), 5.7 (blockquote) 15:19:40 5.9 (title attribute), 5.10 (supp meaning cues - also title) 15:20:04 5.13 (inline struct elements) 15:20:17 5.15 (relative size) 15:20:37 7.2 (title on table element) 15:21:08 7.3 (summarizing data tables) 15:21:56 7.4 (abbr attribute in table headers) 15:22:05 7.5 (i.d. row groups) 15:22:14 7.6 (colgroups) 15:22:27 7.7 (scope attribute) 15:22:36 [this numbering is from the 8 october draft] 15:22:43 7.8 (headers and ids) 15:22:53 most of the table techniques were contentious. 15:23:01 7.9 layout tables 15:23:31 9.2 15:23:41 9.4 image and txt links 15:23:50 9.5 link groups 15:24:02 9.6 tabindex to skip link groups 15:24:09 9.7 skipping link groups 15:24:14 9.9 link separation 15:24:33 9.13 anchors and targets (opening new windwos w/links) 15:24:39 9.14 frames 15:24:59 9.16 15:25:11 10.8 15:25:13 10.10 15:25:24 10.11 15:26:16 of the ones just listed, let's look at those where some people wanted to "kill" 15:26:34 1.3 4 kills, 3 p2, 3 optional 15:26:50 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/#address 15:27:07 is it an accessibility issue? is it a semantic element that we want to encourage people to use? 15:27:26 cr does it increase accessibility? 15:27:52 cr people want to avoid using to avoid getting spam 15:28:03 js typically seen it used to label email address 15:28:36 js if you want semantic markup, better in metadata 15:30:14 mc it is a semantic element. do we have a unique technique for each semantic element or do we have one technique for all semantic elements that links to the spec? 15:30:18 preferences? 15:31:34 bg don't see an accessibilty benefit in knowing who the author is. 15:31:48 mc "here are other semantic elements..." 15:31:54 bg that's part of follow spec 15:33:02 js it's semantically confusing. the address and name of the author are 2 very different things. 15:37:21 general technique about following specs/standards (link to WaSP). 1 html technique for "other elements" that don't have clear accessibility benefit. 1 html technique for other elements that in theory have accessibility benefit (but not well supported now) 15:37:55 js if have techniques that don't benefit accessibility, it will dilute our suggestions that are accessibility related 15:39:42 js a good rationale for a general technique for principle 4 - why it is important to use tech according to spec and points people to the specs 15:43:05 wac which spec? list accessiblity benefits of xhtml 2.0 in attempt to help the chicken/egg. encourage use of xhtml 1.1 to help transition to 2.0 once available. keeping in mind not widely supported yet, but help build demand for 15:43:49 js if a general tech about semantic markup, we could talk about what elements are considered semantic elements 15:44:44 wac list in html techniques for wcag 1.0 and xag has info about benefits of semantic elements 15:45:13 create semantically-rich languages - http://w3.org/TR/xag#g2_0 15:45:29 document and export semantics - http://w3.org/TR/xag#g4_0 15:46:11 index of html elements and attributes (from HTML Techniques for WCAG 1.0) - http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10-HTML-TECHS/#html-index 15:46:16 RRSAgent, make log world 15:47:00 action: michael propose techniques based on this discussion 15:47:48 7.2 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/#datatables_title 15:47:53 says to use summary and caption 15:47:57 (not title) 15:48:11 straw poll results: p1, p2, and kill 15:48:44 js perhaps clearer for readers ifhad a tech that said "use summary or caption" and in that said, "don't use title" 15:48:57 mc 7.1 is use caption (optional), 7.3 summary (optional) 15:49:11 js put a line in each of those that says, "don't use title to do this purpose" 15:50:14 action: michael remove technique 7.2, moving the info to both 7.1 and 7.3 15:50:31 7.4 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/#datatables_abbr 15:50:39 p2s, optionals, kill 15:55:21 js already listed as optional. no reason to kill if people can find reason to use it. 15:56:21 leave as is 15:56:38 8.1 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/#datatables_abbr 15:56:43 had votes in every category 15:57:55 js a candidate for a fallback technique? 15:58:29 js in the main body of the techs doc, don't want to recommend using tables for layout (want to promote css), but we have been thinking about fallback techniques to addrss today's reality 15:59:26 bc these aren't fallback techniques for user agents. more of a fallback technique for authoring tools. 15:59:33 +Chris_Ridpath.a 16:00:03 js also until user agents, b/c had been problem in screen readers reading multiple column layout. how many copies are in active use? 16:00:50 bg ag said that if we don't draw a line in the sand, auth and user tools will not be motivated to fix. however, so ingrained, we have to provide the alternative techniques. 16:01:09 js if it is ingrained, then why do we provide techs? 16:01:16 bg there are techs that make it better for the screen reader 16:01:32 bc don't misuse structure, etc. 16:01:37 -Jenae_Andershonis 16:03:05 js instead of doing the negative technique, focus on "use css for layout" and move layout table info to fallback 16:04:07 cr if we leave it in general, will they miss it? 16:07:31 bc we're deprecating a technique that says not to do something. can we roll this into the intro? 16:14:19 http://www.w3.org/TR/ATAG20-TECHS/tier3.html 16:14:36 looking at uaag and atag suggestions for layout tables. what do they do and how do they reference wcag? 16:15:18 Some examples of transformations include [T0432] - HTML: table-based layout into CSS. [T0212] 16:15:37 two options: 1. move to intro 2. move to fallback techniques 16:15:58 bc a combination of the 2? add an ednote about fallback techs? 16:17:52 js issues w/cms 16:18:20 bg easy to create a tabe that someone could plunk into content, more difficult to create content w/css. either have to give them a separate file or ...?? 16:18:34 bg or provide in the head of the document. 16:19:33 mc cms techs needed 16:19:37 wac that's atag 16:20:33 action: michael move layout table to intro, ednote for repair techniques and ednote about css issue 16:21:13 -Chris_Ridpath.a 16:21:25 9.1 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/#linktext 16:21:45 it's not technology specific. belongs in general not html 16:21:53 +??P1 16:22:29 bc needs to includes title. link text could be obscure and supplemented by title. 16:22:35 bc how do you test what is useful? 16:22:45 bc it is unnecessarily restrictuve. 16:22:52 js distinguish between screen text and ... 16:22:58 mc conditional content (ala uaag) 16:24:31 9.2 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20041008/#a-title 16:24:40 js combine 9.1 and 9.2? 16:24:55 bc don't object to either tech being there. objecting to 9.1 being a p1. 16:25:38 bg is this where the "click here" example goes? 16:26:04 bg that would be a "don't do this" (negative technique) and we are moving away from 16:26:28 bg there is nothing html-specific about this as written 16:32:12 bc either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined 16:34:33 mc primarily addrsesed in general techniques, ednote here 16:36:04 ChrisR has left #wai-wcag 16:36:15 -Becky_Gibson 16:36:16 -Wendy 16:36:16 -Michael_Cooper 16:36:17 -Ben_Caldwell 16:36:18 -John_Slatin 16:36:19 -Chris_Ridpath.a 16:36:20 -Ken_Kipness 16:39:04 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended 16:39:05 Attendees were [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper, Jenae_Andershonis, Ken_Kipness, Wendy, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Ben_Caldwell, John_Slatin, Chris_Ridpath.a 16:39:17 I see 3 open action items: 16:39:17 ACTION: michael propose techniques based on this discussion [1] 16:39:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/03-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-00 16:39:17 ACTION: michael remove technique 7.2, moving the info to both 7.1 and 7.3 [2] 16:39:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/03-wai-wcag-irc#T15-50-14 16:39:17 ACTION: michael move layout table to intro, ednote for repair techniques and ednote about css issue [3] 16:39:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/11/03-wai-wcag-irc#T16-20-33