IRC log of dawg on 2004-10-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:30:50 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:30:56 [DanC]
TomAdams, ready to serve as scribe?
14:31:02 [TomAdams]
14:31:04 [Zakim]
14:31:06 [TomAdams]
Just about to call in.
14:31:17 [Zakim]
14:31:22 [KevinW]
KevinW has joined #DAWG
14:31:48 [patH]
patH has joined #dawg
14:31:51 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:31:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, ??P18, EricP, DanC, PatH
14:31:55 [Zakim]
14:31:56 [AlbertoR]
AlbertoR has joined #dawg
14:32:02 [TomAdams]
zakim, Tucana is TomAdams
14:32:02 [Zakim]
+TomAdams; got it
14:32:09 [Zakim]
14:32:14 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:32:14 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, ??P18, EricP, DanC, PatH, TomAdams, Farrukh
14:32:36 [Zakim]
14:33:01 [DanC]
Regrets: Andy Seaborne, Hiroyuki Sato, Janne, ...
14:33:14 [DanC]
Regrets: Andy Seaborne, Hiroyuki Sato, Janne, Hiroyuki Sato, ...
14:33:15 [SimonR]
Regrets from Kendall as well.
14:33:24 [DanC]
Regrets: Andy Seaborne, Hiroyuki Sato, Janne, Kendall Clark, ...
14:33:48 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:33:48 [DanC]
partial regrets: alberto
14:34:20 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, SimonR, EricP, DanC, PatH, TomAdams, Farrukh, AlbertoR
14:34:26 [patH]
I may have to leave a little early this week.
14:35:11 [Zakim]
14:35:24 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P10 is DaveB
14:35:24 [Zakim]
+DaveB; got it
14:35:34 [Zakim]
14:35:38 [TomAdams]
Dave seconded minutes
14:35:47 [DanC]
Zakim, ??P26 is JosD
14:35:47 [Zakim]
+JosD; got it
14:35:48 [TomAdams]
RESOLVED to accept minutes of last meeting
14:35:59 [TomAdams]
Next meeting Tuesday Oct 26
14:36:21 [AlbertoR]
possibly scribe next week
14:36:28 [TomAdams]
Correction, November 2 for next meeting
14:36:32 [AlbertoR]
good to have backup eventually
14:36:41 [TomAdams]
Scribe: Alberto
14:37:00 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
14:38:01 [TomAdams]
Eric P, discussed next F2f meeting
14:38:06 [TomAdams]
Continuing action
14:38:17 [DanC]
ericp requested mon/tue
14:38:28 [DanC]
danc has a conflict monday with TAG
14:38:33 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:38:33 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review record and agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:37 [ericP]
i sent the request reciept to the list
14:38:38 [DanC]
Zakim, close agendum 1
14:38:38 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
14:38:39 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:40 [Zakim]
2. Web Services Constraints and Capabilities [from DanC]
14:38:41 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:38:41 [Zakim]
agendum 1 was just opened, DanC
14:38:47 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 2
14:38:47 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Web Services Constraints and Capabilities" taken up [from DanC]
14:39:09 [ericP]
14:39:15 [DanC]
. ACTION EricP: draft UC on overlap between RDF query and web service constraints with respect to WS-Policy
14:39:30 [TomAdams]
Eric wrote something up, cited example, unsure of expressivity
14:39:35 [ericP]
14:39:50 [ericP]
<-- example query for web services constraints
14:40:09 [DaveB]
written by ericp (page is unsigned)
14:41:11 [TomAdams]
Matrix is familiar to WS policy people.
14:42:48 [TomAdams]
Expressing what you need to use our web server, must use a security token, X509, etc. Expressed as simple value disjunction for this use case. Not all use cases being kicked around in meeting can be covered by value disjunction.
14:43:21 [DaveB]
replace with ... { ?assertion wss:tokentype ?t} AND (t = "wsse:Kerberosv5TGT" or ?t = "wsse:X509v3" )
14:43:28 [DaveB]
^- value disjunction
14:43:28 [AlbertoR]
simple disjunction as motivated by use case
14:43:33 [TomAdams]
Other used case: You need X509 or (SSL and basic auth)
14:43:46 [DaveB]
q+ to re-ask my question in agenda
14:44:16 [DanC]
ack dave
14:44:16 [Zakim]
DaveB, you wanted to re-ask my question in agenda
14:44:38 [DanC]
(which WG, DaveB?)
14:44:38 [TomAdams]
Quick straw poll conducted on whether to stick this into use cases. 6 came back in the affirmative.
14:44:50 [DaveB]
ws-policy ppl
14:45:04 [DanC]
(so you're using "decided" in a liberal sense?)
14:45:25 [TomAdams]
DaveB asked a question of Eric last week on the decisions of the ws-policy WG.
14:45:34 [DanC]
there is no ws-policy WG
14:45:49 [TomAdams]
14:45:54 [TomAdams]
DaveB, If they stopped at disjunction, why did they?
14:46:18 [DaveB]
I heard eric say they were about 50/50 for adding/not adding disjunction
14:46:44 [TomAdams]
Quick straw poll on not bothering, 2 people.
14:46:52 [TomAdams]
To include in the use cases.
14:47:28 [TomAdams]
Dave and Steve suggest that we have enough use cases.
14:47:51 [TomAdams]
ACTION: Eric to ask Kendall to put use case into UC&R
14:48:16 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:48:16 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Feedback on the SPARQL design" taken up [from DanC]
14:48:24 [TomAdams]
ACTION 1=Eric to ask Kendall to put use case into UC&R or find a use case that covers it
14:48:57 [DanC]
14:49:20 [DanC]
agenda + disjunction issues
14:49:38 [TomAdams]
Steve heard the comment, added to agenda.
14:49:55 [DaveB]
ref to steveH's proposal on disjunction
14:50:21 [TomAdams]
Eric acting as editor on Andy's behalf
14:50:28 [AlbertoR]
14:51:02 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:51:02 [Zakim]
On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, SimonR, EricP, DanC, PatH, TomAdams, Farrukh, AlbertoR, DaveB, JosD
14:51:20 [TomAdams]
SteveH, No pref
14:51:27 [TomAdams]
KevinW, no pref
14:51:28 [SteveH]
ref to my comment on CNF:
14:51:56 [TomAdams]
SimonR, no particular required prefix character, $, ?, :.
14:52:13 [TomAdams]
DanC, No pref
14:52:15 [SteveH]
14:52:16 [TomAdams]
patH, $
14:52:46 [SimonR]
Specifically, I liked the suggestion where there was no required prefix character. And identifier that wasn't a qname (i.e. no colon) would be a variable.
14:52:48 [TomAdams]
patH, Suggest a design in which the user declares the character, but has a default, which i $
14:52:51 [TomAdams]
TomAdams, $
14:52:57 [TomAdams]
FarrukhNajmi, $
14:52:58 [SimonR]
And -> Any
14:53:07 [TomAdams]
AlbertoR, $
14:53:20 [TomAdams]
DaveB, $
14:53:25 [TomAdams]
JosD, $
14:53:32 [AlbertoR]
JosD was ?
14:53:38 [JosD]
14:53:51 [TomAdams]
JosD, ? (correction)
14:54:11 [TomAdams]
ericP, Sensed the way the wind is blowing and changed to $
14:54:19 [SimonR]
I agree with Farrukh about having either one or the other, at least.
14:55:09 [AlbertoR]
can live with both - but preference (best practice) is $
14:55:21 [SimonR]
I sort of prefer $ because it's more like XPath/XQuery/XSLT.
14:55:38 [DanC]
. ACTION: PatH review SPARQL def'ns post-publication
14:55:41 [TomAdams]
DanC, Will leave as input to editor, update as they see fit.
14:56:00 [TomAdams]
patH, Thought it was on hold, will do it this week.
14:56:25 [TomAdams]
DanC, Pat to work on editors draft
14:56:34 [DanC]
editor's draft
14:56:53 [TomAdams]
Pat's action cont
14:57:10 [TomAdams]
Dan sent defns for select, editor didn't read them...
14:57:26 [DanC]
definitions for SELECT, projection
14:57:45 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:57:45 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "PREFIX syntax" taken up [from DanC]
14:58:16 [TomAdams]
Dave's action complete.
14:59:06 [TomAdams]
DanC, Thinks we should make the language smaller.
14:59:06 [AlbertoR]
14:59:10 [AlbertoR]
14:59:28 [DaveB]
14:59:34 [DaveB]
15:00:20 [TomAdams]
AlbertoR, Didn't digest grammar, like proposal, is this related to serialisation of results
15:00:21 [TomAdams]
15:00:38 [TomAdams]
DaveB, Not aware of relation to result
15:01:13 [AlbertoR]
wondered if the proposal/solution would cover things like select ?prefix:var ?prefix:var1
15:01:27 [ericP]
ericP's position on the three-part proposal: +1 -2 +3
15:02:07 [TomAdams]
Simon is for just doing prefixing at the beginning
15:04:02 [DanC]
(hmm... why did I make prefix syntax a WG issue and not other syntax details? chairing error.)
15:04:57 [TomAdams]
Eric P gave his decision, accpt 1 and 3, but not 2
15:05:14 [SimonR]
Now that I've read 164, I'd support part 1 and 3, but not 2. 2 is a special case which changes the consistent rule elsewhere that qnames and URIs are interchangeable.
15:05:37 [SimonR]
+1 to EricP's position, as I understand it.
15:06:26 [TomAdams]
Dan to leave this as a he who does the work writes the rule, is suggesting a use case
15:06:27 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:06:27 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "Toward adopting some tests" taken up [from DanC]
15:07:03 [DaveB]
If $ is chaging, all the tests are unapprovable
15:07:08 [DaveB]
? is changing
15:07:09 [AlbertoR]
15:07:34 [AlbertoR]
is about some SOURCE tests details - i.e. my experience while running tests
15:09:16 [AlbertoR]
me too - I have the machinery in place - it does not do OPTIONAL though - results are checked "manually" to - but could use some propose isomorphism utility
15:09:54 [DaveB]
DanC walsk through item 5, looking at dawg-triple-pattern-001
15:10:12 [DaveB]
daveb has run it. steveh has translated to rdql and run it. josH has done similar ot n3
15:10:56 [AlbertoR]
and Alberto is about to run some simple tests (a part the SOURCE ones) - but OPTIONAL ones
15:11:12 [TomAdams]
DaveB, Not redundant if you have optional triples
15:12:17 [TomAdams]
DanC will think about results for optional triples
15:13:56 [TomAdams]
?? Not happy with result format, does p come before q?
15:14:15 [AlbertoR]
does SQL / ER models "demand" order on columns? not sure...
15:14:24 [DaveB]
"query results are a set of pattern solutions." -- sec 2, SPARQL paragraph 2
15:14:35 [TomAdams]
SimonR, There is no order specified, so the ordering does not matter in this case.
15:14:56 [TomAdams]
?? Sometimes order matters, such as in XSLT
15:15:18 [SimonR]
15:15:19 [TomAdams]
DanC, Suggests that the protocol does this, not SPARQL
15:15:44 [AlbertoR]
right - but XSLT is already outside the SPARQL protocol stack I expect...good to sort RDF-for-XML syntax for example (we do that actually)
15:16:41 [TomAdams]
A pattern solution is a set of bindings (no order), the results is a set of query solns
15:16:56 [TomAdams]
The order of a given row is not order, the order of the rows is not ordered
15:17:04 [TomAdams]
DanC, points to section 8
15:17:18 [TomAdams]
15:18:01 [TomAdams]
15:18:12 [TomAdams]
"Results can be thought of as a table, with one row per query solution. Some cells may be empty because a variable is not bound in that particular solution."
15:18:20 [AlbertoR]
yes - I can read (and implemented) un-order result sets (rows or columns) - just a set of results
15:18:34 [TomAdams]
SimonR, Have redefined "results"
15:18:47 [AlbertoR]
15:19:50 [TomAdams]
Simon is encouraged to look at wording and defn
15:20:14 [TomAdams]
AlbertoR, References earlier comment.
15:20:45 [TomAdams]
AlbertoR, Need to spell out clearly that we don't support ordering.
15:21:12 [TomAdams]
DanC, Expects result format to be in the protocol level, would expect results to be deterministic
15:21:41 [TomAdams]
DanC makes comments that for protocol format, columns are ordered lexigraphically
15:21:53 [TomAdams]
DanC, Rows are a separate issue.
15:22:26 [ericP]
q+ to talk about rs:size and graph match
15:22:45 [TomAdams]
DanC, Asks Steve about taking size out of result format
15:23:20 [DanC]
ACTION SteveH: take rs:size out of expected results from all tests
15:24:12 [DanC]
ACTION EricP: supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala
15:24:13 [SimonR]
SimonR has joined #dawg
15:24:35 [TomAdams]
ericP, Points on barrier between protocol and query language.
15:25:03 [TomAdams]
ericP, QL specifies select, gives them back in order specified, rows separate issue.
15:25:34 [TomAdams]
ericP, In terms of getting information fro QL spec to protocol spec, can the protocol spec peak into the QL?
15:25:54 [TomAdams]
DanC, See similar issues, wants to see what Eric comes up with
15:26:46 [TomAdams]
ericP, Talking about removing the number of rows. If you remove the number of rows and do a graph compare between an implementation and that defined in the spec, if you don't have a distinct, won't be able to automatically merge the tuples that have the same binding.
15:27:12 [TomAdams]
ericP, May be able to do it with a rule, but not tailored to the result set.
15:28:18 [TomAdams]
DanC, The merged example graphs (texas) are isomrphic
15:28:39 [TomAdams]
15:29:41 [TomAdams]
??: Graph are logically equivalent
15:30:17 [ericP]
foo rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Texas"];
15:30:26 [ericP]
rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Boston"];
15:30:33 [ericP]
rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Texas"].
15:30:39 [ericP]
compare to:
15:30:46 [ericP]
foo rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Boston"];
15:30:49 [ericP]
rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Texas"].
15:30:50 [ericP]
15:32:10 [DaveB]
patH says they are not isomorphic, but are logically equivalent
15:32:17 [DaveB]
(rdf-entailed I guess)
15:32:27 [Zakim]
15:32:28 [Zakim]
15:32:43 [DanC]
15:32:48 [Zakim]
15:32:48 [TomAdams]
Meeting adjourned
15:32:55 [Zakim]
15:32:56 [Zakim]
15:35:47 [TomAdams]
Bye all! Have fun ;)
15:35:49 [Zakim]
15:36:33 [KevinW]
KevinW has left #DAWG
15:37:02 [Zakim]
15:37:55 [DanC]
Zakim, make logs world-access
15:37:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'make logs world-access', DanC
15:38:21 [SteveH]
15:38:24 [Zakim]
15:39:15 [TomAdams]
zakim, list attendees
15:39:15 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been SteveH, Kevin, EricP, DanC, PatH, [Tucana], TomAdams, Farrukh, SimonR, AlbertoR, DaveB, JosD
15:41:00 [Zakim]
15:41:05 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:41:10 [DanC]
RRSAgent, bye
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Eric to ask Kendall to put use case into UC&R or find a use case that covers it [1]
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: SteveH to take rs:size out of expected results from all tests [2]
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: EricP to supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala [3]
15:41:10 [RRSAgent]
recorded in