14:30:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:30:56 <DanC> TomAdams, ready to serve as scribe?
14:31:02 <TomAdams> Sure.
14:31:04 <Zakim> +DanC
14:31:06 <TomAdams> Just about to call in.
14:31:17 <Zakim> +PatH
14:31:22 <KevinW> KevinW has joined #DAWG
14:31:48 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:31:51 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:31:51 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, ??P18, EricP, DanC, PatH
14:31:55 <Zakim> +[Tucana]
14:31:56 <AlbertoR> AlbertoR has joined #dawg
14:32:02 <TomAdams> zakim, Tucana is TomAdams
14:32:02 <Zakim> +TomAdams; got it
14:32:09 <Zakim> +Farrukh
14:32:14 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:32:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, ??P18, EricP, DanC, PatH, TomAdams, Farrukh
14:32:36 <Zakim> +AlbertoR
14:33:01 <DanC> Regrets: Andy Seaborne, Hiroyuki Sato, Janne, ...
14:33:14 <DanC> Regrets: Andy Seaborne, Hiroyuki Sato, Janne, Hiroyuki Sato, ...
14:33:15 <SimonR> Regrets from Kendall as well.
14:33:24 <DanC> Regrets: Andy Seaborne, Hiroyuki Sato, Janne, Kendall Clark, ...
14:33:48 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
14:33:48 <DanC> partial regrets: alberto
14:34:20 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:34:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, SimonR, EricP, DanC, PatH, TomAdams, Farrukh, AlbertoR
14:34:26 <patH> I may have to leave a little early this week. 
14:35:11 <Zakim> +??P10
14:35:24 <DanC> Zakim, ??P10 is DaveB
14:35:24 <Zakim> +DaveB; got it
14:35:34 <Zakim> +??P26
14:35:38 <TomAdams> Dave seconded minutes
14:35:47 <DanC> Zakim, ??P26 is JosD
14:35:47 <Zakim> +JosD; got it
14:35:48 <TomAdams> RESOLVED to accept minutes of last meeting
14:35:59 <TomAdams> Next meeting Tuesday Oct 26
14:36:21 <AlbertoR> possibly scribe next week
14:36:28 <TomAdams> Correction, November 2 for next meeting
14:36:32 <AlbertoR> good to have backup eventually
14:36:41 <TomAdams> Scribe: Alberto
14:37:00 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
14:38:01 <TomAdams> Eric P, discussed next F2f meeting
14:38:06 <TomAdams> Continuing action
14:38:17 <DanC> ericp requested mon/tue
14:38:28 <DanC> danc has a conflict monday with TAG
14:38:33 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:38:33 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review record and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0173.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:38:37 <ericP> i sent the request reciept to the list
14:38:38 <DanC> Zakim, close agendum 1
14:38:38 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
14:38:39 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:38:40 <Zakim> 2. Web Services Constraints and Capabilities [from DanC]
14:38:41 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:38:41 <Zakim> agendum 1 was just opened, DanC
14:38:47 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 2
14:38:47 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Web Services Constraints and Capabilities" taken up [from DanC]
14:39:09 <ericP> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0145.html
14:39:15 <DanC> . ACTION EricP: draft UC on overlap between RDF query and web service constraints with respect to WS-Policy
14:39:30 <TomAdams> Eric wrote something up, cited example, unsure of expressivity
14:39:35 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2004/08/20-ws-pol-pos/#query
14:39:50 <ericP> <-- example query for web services constraints
14:40:09 <DaveB> written by ericp (page is unsigned)
14:41:11 <TomAdams> Matrix is familiar to WS policy people. 
14:42:48 <TomAdams> Expressing what you need to use our web server, must use a security token, X509, etc. Expressed as simple value disjunction for this use case. Not all use cases being kicked around in meeting can be covered by value disjunction.
14:43:21 <DaveB> replace with ...  { ?assertion wss:tokentype ?t} AND (t = "wsse:Kerberosv5TGT" or ?t = "wsse:X509v3" )
14:43:28 <DaveB> ^- value disjunction
14:43:28 <AlbertoR> simple disjunction as motivated by http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/2004Sep/0000.html use case
14:43:33 <TomAdams> Other used case: You need X509 or (SSL and basic auth)
14:43:46 <DaveB> q+ to re-ask my question in agenda
14:44:16 <DanC> ack dave
14:44:16 <Zakim> DaveB, you wanted to re-ask my question in agenda
14:44:38 <DanC> (which WG, DaveB?)
14:44:38 <TomAdams> Quick straw poll conducted on whether to stick this into use cases. 6 came back in the affirmative.
14:44:50 <DaveB> ws-policy ppl
14:45:04 <DanC> (so you're using "decided" in a liberal sense?)
14:45:25 <TomAdams> DaveB asked a question of Eric last week on the decisions of the ws-policy WG.
14:45:34 <DanC> there is no ws-policy WG
14:45:49 <TomAdams> s/WG/ppl
14:45:54 <TomAdams> DaveB, If they stopped at disjunction, why did they?
14:46:18 <DaveB> I heard eric say they were about 50/50 for adding/not adding disjunction
14:46:44 <TomAdams> Quick straw poll on not bothering, 2 people.
14:46:52 <TomAdams> To include in the use cases.
14:47:28 <TomAdams> Dave and Steve suggest that we have enough use cases.
14:47:51 <TomAdams> ACTION: Eric to ask Kendall to put use case into UC&R
14:48:16 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:48:16 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Feedback on the SPARQL design" taken up [from DanC]
14:48:24 <TomAdams> ACTION 1=Eric to ask Kendall to put use case into UC&R or find a use case that covers it
14:48:57 <DanC> note: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues#disjunction
14:49:20 <DanC> agenda + disjunction issues
14:49:38 <TomAdams> Steve heard the comment, added to agenda.
14:49:55 <DaveB> ref to steveH's proposal on disjunction http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0604.html
14:50:21 <TomAdams> Eric acting as editor on Andy's behalf
14:50:28 <AlbertoR> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0160.html
14:51:02 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:51:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveH, Kevin, SimonR, EricP, DanC, PatH, TomAdams, Farrukh, AlbertoR, DaveB, JosD
14:51:20 <TomAdams> SteveH, No pref
14:51:27 <TomAdams> KevinW, no pref
14:51:28 <SteveH> ref to my comment on CNF: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0604.html
14:51:56 <TomAdams> SimonR, no particular required prefix character, $, ?, :.
14:52:13 <TomAdams> DanC, No pref
14:52:15 <SteveH> sorry... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0047.html
14:52:16 <TomAdams> patH, $
14:52:46 <SimonR> Specifically, I liked the suggestion where there was no required prefix character.  And identifier that wasn't a qname (i.e. no colon) would be a variable.
14:52:48 <TomAdams> patH, Suggest a design in which the user declares the character, but has a default, which i $
14:52:51 <TomAdams> TomAdams, $
14:52:57 <TomAdams> FarrukhNajmi, $
14:52:58 <SimonR> And -> Any
14:53:07 <TomAdams> AlbertoR, $
14:53:20 <TomAdams> DaveB, $
14:53:25 <TomAdams> JosD, $
14:53:32 <AlbertoR> JosD was ?
14:53:38 <JosD> indeed
14:53:51 <TomAdams> JosD, ? (correction)
14:54:11 <TomAdams> ericP, Sensed the way the wind is blowing and changed to $
14:54:19 <SimonR> I agree with Farrukh about having either one or the other, at least.
14:55:09 <AlbertoR> can live with both - but preference (best practice) is $
14:55:21 <SimonR> I sort of prefer $ because it's more like XPath/XQuery/XSLT.
14:55:38 <DanC> . ACTION: PatH review SPARQL def'ns post-publication
14:55:41 <TomAdams> DanC, Will leave as input to editor, update as they see fit.
14:56:00 <TomAdams> patH, Thought it was on hold, will do it this week.
14:56:25 <TomAdams> DanC, Pat to work on editors draft
14:56:34 <DanC> editor's draft http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/
14:56:53 <TomAdams> Pat's action cont
14:57:10 <TomAdams> Dan sent defns for select, editor didn't read them...
14:57:26 <DanC> definitions for SELECT, projection http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0151.html
14:57:45 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:57:45 <Zakim> agendum 4. "PREFIX syntax" taken up [from DanC]
14:58:16 <TomAdams> Dave's action complete.
14:59:06 <TomAdams> DanC, Thinks we should make the language smaller.
14:59:06 <AlbertoR> +q
14:59:10 <AlbertoR> q+
14:59:28 <DaveB> example http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0161.html
14:59:34 <DaveB> proposal http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0164.html
15:00:20 <TomAdams> AlbertoR, Didn't digest grammar, like proposal, is this related to serialisation of results
15:00:21 <TomAdams> ?
15:00:38 <TomAdams> DaveB, Not aware of relation to result
15:01:13 <AlbertoR> wondered if the proposal/solution would cover things like select ?prefix:var ?prefix:var1
15:01:27 <ericP> ericP's position on the three-part proposal: +1 -2 +3
15:02:07 <TomAdams> Simon is for just doing prefixing at the beginning
15:04:02 <DanC> (hmm... why did I make prefix syntax a WG issue and not other syntax details? chairing error.)
15:04:57 <TomAdams> Eric P gave his decision, accpt 1 and 3, but not 2
15:05:14 <SimonR> Now that I've read 164, I'd support part 1 and 3, but not 2.  2 is a special case which changes the consistent rule elsewhere that qnames and URIs are interchangeable.
15:05:37 <SimonR> +1 to EricP's position, as I understand it.
15:06:26 <TomAdams> Dan to leave this as a he who does the work writes the rule, is suggesting a use case
15:06:27 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:06:27 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Toward adopting some tests" taken up [from DanC]
15:07:03 <DaveB> If $ is chaging, all the tests are unapprovable
15:07:08 <DaveB> ? is changing
15:07:09 <AlbertoR> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0176.html
15:07:34 <AlbertoR> is about some SOURCE tests details - i.e. my experience while running tests
15:09:16 <AlbertoR> me too - I have the machinery in place - it does not do OPTIONAL though - results are checked "manually" to - but could use some propose isomorphism utility
15:09:54 <DaveB> DanC walsk through item 5, looking at dawg-triple-pattern-001
15:10:12 <DaveB> daveb has run it.  steveh has translated to rdql and run it.  josH has done similar ot n3
15:10:56 <AlbertoR> and Alberto is about to run some simple tests (a part the SOURCE ones) - but OPTIONAL ones
15:11:12 <TomAdams> DaveB, Not redundant if you have optional triples
15:12:17 <TomAdams> DanC will think about results for optional triples
15:13:56 <TomAdams> ?? Not happy with result format, does p come before q?
15:14:15 <AlbertoR> does SQL / ER models "demand" order on columns? not sure...
15:14:24 <DaveB> "query results are a set of pattern solutions." -- sec 2, SPARQL paragraph 2
15:14:35 <TomAdams> SimonR, There is no order specified, so the ordering does not matter in this case.
15:14:56 <TomAdams> ?? Sometimes order matters, such as in XSLT
15:15:18 <SimonR> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#MultipleMatches
15:15:19 <TomAdams> DanC, Suggests that the protocol does this, not SPARQL
15:15:44 <AlbertoR> right - but XSLT is already outside the SPARQL protocol stack I expect...good to sort RDF-for-XML syntax for example (we do that actually)
15:16:41 <TomAdams> A pattern solution is a set of bindings (no order), the results is a set of query solns
15:16:56 <TomAdams> The order of a given row is not order, the order of the rows is not ordered
15:17:04 <TomAdams> DanC, points to section 8
15:17:18 <TomAdams> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#choosing
15:18:01 <TomAdams> Correction: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/#select
15:18:12 <TomAdams> "Results can be thought of as a table, with one row per query  solution. Some cells may be empty because a variable is not bound  in that particular solution."
15:18:20 <AlbertoR> yes - I can read (and implemented) un-order result sets (rows or columns) - just a set of results
15:18:34 <TomAdams> SimonR, Have redefined "results"
15:18:47 <AlbertoR> q+
15:19:50 <TomAdams> Simon is encouraged to look at wording and defn
15:20:14 <TomAdams> AlbertoR, References earlier comment.
15:20:45 <TomAdams> AlbertoR, Need to spell out clearly that we don't support ordering.
15:21:12 <TomAdams> DanC, Expects result format to be in the protocol level, would expect results to be deterministic
15:21:41 <TomAdams> DanC makes comments that for protocol format, columns are ordered lexigraphically
15:21:53 <TomAdams> DanC, Rows are a separate issue.
15:22:26 <ericP> q+ to talk about rs:size and graph match
15:22:45 <TomAdams> DanC, Asks Steve about taking size out of result format
15:23:20 <DanC> ACTION SteveH: take rs:size out of expected results from all tests
15:24:12 <DanC> ACTION EricP: supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0151.html
15:24:13 <SimonR> SimonR has joined #dawg
15:24:35 <TomAdams> ericP, Points on barrier between protocol and query language.
15:25:03 <TomAdams> ericP, QL specifies select, gives them back in order specified, rows separate issue.
15:25:34 <TomAdams> ericP, In terms of getting information fro QL spec to protocol spec, can the protocol spec peak into the QL?
15:25:54 <TomAdams> DanC, See similar issues, wants to see what Eric comes up with
15:26:46 <TomAdams> ericP, Talking about removing the number of rows. If you remove the number of rows and do a graph compare between an implementation and that defined in the spec, if you don't have a distinct, won't be able to automatically merge the tuples that have the same binding.
15:27:12 <TomAdams> ericP, May be able to do it with a rule, but not tailored to the result set.
15:28:18 <TomAdams> DanC, The merged example graphs (texas) are isomrphic
15:28:39 <TomAdams> s/isomrphic/isomorphic
15:29:41 <TomAdams> ??: Graph are logically equivalent
15:30:17 <ericP> foo rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Texas"];
15:30:26 <ericP>     rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Boston"];
15:30:33 <ericP>     rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Texas"].
15:30:39 <ericP> compare to:
15:30:46 <ericP> foo rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Boston"];
15:30:49 <ericP>     rs:result [ rs:variable "where"; rs:value "Texas"].
15:30:50 <ericP> .
15:32:10 <DaveB> patH says they are not isomorphic, but are logically equivalent
15:32:17 <DaveB> (rdf-entailed I guess)
15:32:27 <Zakim> -AlbertoR
15:32:28 <Zakim> -PatH
15:32:43 <DanC> ADJOURN.
15:32:48 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:32:48 <TomAdams> Meeting adjourned
15:32:55 <Zakim> -Farrukh
15:32:56 <Zakim> -JosD
15:35:47 <TomAdams> Bye all! Have fun ;)
15:35:49 <Zakim> -TomAdams
15:36:33 <KevinW> KevinW has left #DAWG
15:37:02 <Zakim> -Kevin
15:37:55 <DanC> Zakim, make logs world-access
15:37:55 <Zakim> I don't understand 'make logs world-access', DanC
15:38:21 <SteveH> bye
15:38:24 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:39:15 <TomAdams> zakim, list attendees
15:39:15 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been SteveH, Kevin, EricP, DanC, PatH, [Tucana], TomAdams, Farrukh, SimonR, AlbertoR, DaveB, JosD
15:41:00 <Zakim> -SimonR
15:41:05 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:41:10 <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
15:41:10 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
15:41:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Eric to ask Kendall to put use case into UC&R or find a use case that covers it [1]
15:41:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/26-dawg-irc#T14-47-51
15:41:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: SteveH to take rs:size out of expected results from all tests [2]
15:41:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/26-dawg-irc#T15-23-20
15:41:10 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to supply definitions for SELECT (vars ordered or not?) ala http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004OctDec/0151.html [3]
15:41:10 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/26-dawg-irc#T15-24-12