14:13:07 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #swbp
14:13:30 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: RDF in XHTML http://w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/agenda-2004-10-22
14:15:25 <benadida> JJC going over http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0013.html
14:17:00 <jjc> Dan: so what do we do about literals?
14:18:02 <jjc> Unfortunate that Mark could not attend.
14:19:57 <DanC> whether it's required... I'm looking over the use cases in http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML
14:20:41 <Steven> Why doesn't <meta about="http://example.org/doc" REL="dc:creator">Jeremy Carroll</META> WORK FOR YOU?
14:20:57 <Steven> s/A-Z/a-z/
14:21:50 <jjc> Problem is that "Jeremy Carroll" becomes "Jeremy Carroll"^^rdf:XMLLiteral (without lang)
14:22:11 <jjc> or "<span xml:lang="en">Jeremy Carroll</span>"^^rdf:XMLLiteral
14:22:18 <benadida> Action: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals for CC
14:23:02 <jjc> Not clear if tools will see that this is the same person as "Jeremy Carroll" plain literal.
14:23:10 <Steven> zakim, dial steven-617
14:23:10 <Zakim> ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:23:11 <Zakim> +Steven
14:23:17 <jjc> ^same person^same name^
14:23:27 <Steven> (HCG ended early)
14:23:32 <jjc> discussion of tools: CWM, DC tools, FOAF
14:23:43 <DanC> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:23:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P9, +1.617.230.aaaa, [Tucana], Dom (muted), DanC, Steven
14:23:47 <jjc> suggestion that Dan Bri would be best to follow up on foaf
14:24:03 <benadida> Action: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with respect to FOAF and literals
14:24:20 <Steven> ACTION:  Ben to find someone to determine requirement with respect to FOAF and literals
14:24:34 <benadida> ACTION: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals for CC
14:24:41 <Ralph> Ralph has joined #swbp
14:24:49 <Ralph> apologies!
14:25:04 <Zakim> +Ralph
14:25:06 <DanC> but based on what I know, I'd say, conservatively, that the ability to express plain literals is a requirement.
14:25:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-25-06
14:26:33 <DanC> StevenP: HTML WG meets ftf 1st week of Nov
14:26:40 <DanC> ... so input before then is best.
14:26:53 <DanC> ... 8-9 Nov 2004
14:27:14 <jjc> Steven: :Last Call is waiting on this
14:27:51 <jjc> ACTION: jjc verify that nodeID attribute addresses bnode issue
14:28:42 <jjc> reification e-mail
14:28:44 <benadida> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Sep/0020.html
14:28:51 <DanC> JJC: as http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Sep/0020.html shows, RDF/A is OK w.r.t. reification
14:28:58 <jjc> Jeremy: point is that there isn't a problem.
14:31:38 <jjc> Steven introduces RDF/A
14:31:49 <jjc> http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html
14:32:06 <DanC> q+ to note that the CC use case doesn't look right
14:32:21 <jjc> q+ note that plain literals stuff looks ok
14:32:28 <jjc> q+ to note that plain literals stuff looks ok
14:32:46 <benadida> q-
14:32:50 <jjc> Steven: moved from resource to href
14:33:02 <jjc> motivated by CC, also makes it look more like html 4
14:33:29 <dom> ack DanC
14:33:29 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note that the CC use case doesn't look right
14:33:33 <jjc> DanC: finds minor issue with CC use case
14:33:49 <Ralph> minor?
14:34:27 <Ralph> DanC: example 6.1 says "the statements are not about the document", whereas CC does want to say something about the document
14:34:28 <jjc> Marks question about="" or about = "#" ?
14:34:30 <DanC> this document is ""
14:34:31 <jjc> DanC ""
14:34:35 <jjc> Jeremy ""
14:34:57 <Ralph> Steven: about='' is ok
14:34:59 <DanC> I think about="" will get ignored by the deployed stuff.
14:35:38 <jjc> Steven: meta stuff was always implicitly about this doc, now being made explicit
14:36:31 <Ralph> Ralph: about='' conforms to an RDF/XML usage pattern too, so that's good
14:36:55 <DanC> q+ to ask if ben has thought about the impact of the XHTML 2.0 namespace and media type on CC deployment
14:37:20 <jjc> STeven: default about="" on head
14:37:29 <benadida> q-
14:37:33 <jjc> This allows current authors to continue their practice
14:37:34 <DanC> (I don't see that in the psuedocode under 7 Rules)
14:37:44 <Zakim> jjc, you wanted to note that plain literals stuff looks ok
14:38:47 <jjc> content= attribute
14:39:04 <jjc> DanC notes that these means duplicating metadata which is visible
14:39:53 <Ralph> DanC: eg. <... content="Ralph">Ralph</ ...
14:40:06 <dom> zakim, unmute dom
14:40:06 <Zakim> Dom should no longer be muted
14:41:15 <DanC> JJC: tools perhaps don't support XMLLiteral in RDF well, but maybe it's OK to push in that direction by way of XHTML 2
14:41:41 <dom> what about adding another attribute that distinguishes both cases?
14:42:10 <DanC> I think another attribute was discussed earlier. Seems like a good idea, to me.
14:42:21 <dom> maybe not going as far as allowing any datatypes, but at least separating XMLLiteral from plain literal
14:42:54 <DanC> yes, we can hear, dom
14:42:55 <DanC> oops
14:43:58 <dom> à la "rdf:datatype"
14:45:23 <DanC> <span content="456">456</span>
14:45:39 <jjc> DanC: problem also for date strings etc ...
14:46:14 <jjc> i.e. computer code rather than Natural Language content
14:47:08 <DanC> (is there an XSLT thingy to grok RDF/A available?)
14:48:04 <jjc> Steven: there's meant to be something XLST but it's not quite ready ...
14:49:12 <dom> the XSLT can hardcode it
14:49:22 <DanC> right
14:49:24 <jjc> DanC: any default attr e.g. about="" should eb explciit in XSLT as well as in DTD
14:49:29 <benadida> q
14:49:32 <DanC> ack danc
14:49:32 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask if ben has thought about the impact of the XHTML 2.0 namespace and media type on CC deployment
14:49:36 <dom> ie, if not(test(@about)) assume(about="")
14:50:13 <jjc> ACTION: ben assess impact of namespace change on CC
14:50:38 <DanC> and the media type
14:50:41 <dom> note that XHTML 2.0 is the way forward, GRDDL can be used for the way backward
14:51:43 <dom> ACTION 4=  ben assess impact of namespace change on CC and the media type
14:53:16 <Steven> ACTION: Steven and Mark to add about="" to example in 6.1
14:53:17 <jjc> Moving on to feedback ...
14:53:29 <Ralph> Ben: if CC can provide the chunk for an author to insert that is acceptable to HTML4 and gives the right semantics when users adopt XHTML2, that's good
14:53:40 <dom> [I note that the new profile-based GRDDL may be easier to deploy than the profile+link one]
14:53:41 <Ralph> DanC: but about='' isn't HTML4
14:53:42 <DanC> (timecheck? I'm available to stay past the top of the hour to talk about the requirements document)
14:54:28 <jjc> STeven: XHTML will reference RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax
14:54:59 <DanC> q+ to note jjc's point about bnodes conflicts with " RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] provides sufficient flexibility to represent all of the abstract concepts in RDF [RDF-CONCEPTS]."
14:56:16 <DanC> ack danc
14:56:16 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to note jjc's point about bnodes conflicts with " RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] provides sufficient flexibility to represent all of the abstract concepts in RDF
14:56:19 <Zakim> ... [RDF-CONCEPTS]."
14:56:48 <DanC> PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 [name?] is ...
14:57:01 <DanC> PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 is a full and valid syntax of RDF...
14:57:21 <DanC> q+ to ask where the resulting graph is defined
14:57:47 <Steven> Section 5: RDF Concepts
14:58:01 <DanC> PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 RDF Concepts is a useful design for expressing RDF graphs in XHTML 2
14:58:20 <Steven> http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div150483264
14:58:56 <dom> bye, sorry and thanks
14:59:22 <DanC> PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 RDF Concepts is a useful design for expressing RDF graphs in XHTML 2, and references [RDF-CONCEPTS] normatively in a satisfactory way
14:59:39 <Ralph> second this form
14:59:43 <DanC> 2nd
14:59:55 <DanC> (the next thing is to ask for objections/abstentions)
15:00:07 <DanC> (and then announce that we are resolved)
15:01:17 <DanC> so RESOLVED.
15:01:46 <DanC> umm... action somebody to tell the HTML WG? ah... stevenP is here; please let them know.
15:01:53 <benadida> no problem, David :)
15:02:33 <Zakim> -Dom
15:03:50 <Ralph> jjc: ? about xml:lang
15:04:11 <Ralph> ... grddl transform must be specifed to add <span> elements
15:04:23 <Steven> zakim, mute me
15:04:23 <Zakim> Steven should now be muted
15:04:36 <Steven> (Baby crying, I have to get him, so I am muted now)
15:05:08 <Ralph> ... see example 5.1.1.1
15:05:10 <DanC> http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div448277832
15:05:48 <DanC> <head about="">
15:05:48 <DanC>     <meta property="dc:creator" content="Albert Einstein" />
15:05:48 <DanC>     <meta property="dc:title">E = mc<sup>2</sup>: The Most Urgent Problem of Our Time</meta>
15:05:48 <DanC> </head>
15:05:53 <Ralph> ... see example 5.1.2.1
15:06:06 <Steven> ack me
15:06:10 <Zakim> -[Tucana]
15:08:07 <DanC> ack danc
15:08:07 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to ask where the resulting graph is defined
15:10:48 <Ralph> Steven: HTML WG f2f 8-9 Nov
15:11:54 <DanC> SP suggests 2004-10-29 Fri
15:12:30 <DanC> (conflicts with a SemWeb CG meeting, at which DanC, Swick, Danbri are expected. negotiable, but a little tricky)
15:12:58 <DanC> (and DavidW)
15:13:36 <DanC> 10am Chicago time is OK for me.
15:13:46 <DanC> 11am Boston
15:14:01 <DanC> JJC: I'd have just 60min, not 90, at that time.
15:14:08 <Ralph> 1500-1600 UTC 29 Oct
15:15:44 <Zakim> -??P9
15:15:45 <Zakim> -Steven
15:16:09 <Ralph> zakim, aaaa is BenA
15:16:09 <Zakim> +BenA; got it
15:16:27 <Ralph> [adjourned]
15:16:50 <DanC> http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML
15:25:30 <DanC> http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/SHOE/
15:27:29 <DanC> ACTION DanC: ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do i put this in my web page?" community
15:29:08 <Zakim> -DanC
15:29:13 <Zakim> -Ralph
15:29:14 <Zakim> -BenA
15:29:15 <Zakim> SW_BPD(xhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:29:16 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.617.230.aaaa, [Tucana], Dom, DanC, Steven, Ralph, BenA
15:29:19 <benadida> benadida has left #swbp
15:29:20 <DanC> yeah, did we decide to meet in a week? I sorta think we did.
15:29:37 <DanC> the record should at least show that as a leading proposal
15:30:36 <Ralph> I understood that we were going to meet on 29 Oct 1500-1600 UTC, yes
15:31:36 <dom> regrets from me, then; I'll be in a F2F meeting
15:32:07 <Ralph> noted
15:43:16 <Ralph> rrsagent, bye
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items:
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with respect to FOAF and literals [1]
15:43:16 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-24-20
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals for CC [2]
15:43:16 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-24-34
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jjc verify that nodeID attribute addresses bnode issue [3]
15:43:16 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-27-51
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben assess impact of namespace change on CC and the media type [4]
15:43:16 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-50-13
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Steven and Mark to add about="" to example in 6.1 [5]
15:43:16 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-53-16
15:43:16 <RRSAgent> ACTION: DanC to ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do i put this in my web page?" community [6]
15:43:16 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T15-27-29