IRC log of swbp on 2004-10-22

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:13:07 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #swbp
14:13:30 [DanC]
DanC has changed the topic to: RDF in XHTML http://w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/HTML/agenda-2004-10-22
14:15:25 [benadida]
JJC going over http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Oct/0013.html
14:17:00 [jjc]
Dan: so what do we do about literals?
14:18:02 [jjc]
Unfortunate that Mark could not attend.
14:19:57 [DanC]
whether it's required... I'm looking over the use cases in http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML
14:20:41 [Steven]
Why doesn't <meta about="http://example.org/doc" REL="dc:creator">Jeremy Carroll</META> WORK FOR YOU?
14:20:57 [Steven]
s/A-Z/a-z/
14:21:50 [jjc]
Problem is that "Jeremy Carroll" becomes "Jeremy Carroll"^^rdf:XMLLiteral (without lang)
14:22:11 [jjc]
or "<span xml:lang="en">Jeremy Carroll</span>"^^rdf:XMLLiteral
14:22:18 [benadida]
Action: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals for CC
14:23:02 [jjc]
Not clear if tools will see that this is the same person as "Jeremy Carroll" plain literal.
14:23:10 [Steven]
zakim, dial steven-617
14:23:10 [Zakim]
ok, Steven; the call is being made
14:23:11 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:23:17 [jjc]
^same person^same name^
14:23:27 [Steven]
(HCG ended early)
14:23:32 [jjc]
discussion of tools: CWM, DC tools, FOAF
14:23:43 [DanC]
Zakim, who is on the call?
14:23:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P9, +1.617.230.aaaa, [Tucana], Dom (muted), DanC, Steven
14:23:47 [jjc]
suggestion that Dan Bri would be best to follow up on foaf
14:24:03 [benadida]
Action: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with respect to FOAF and literals
14:24:20 [Steven]
ACTION: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with respect to FOAF and literals
14:24:34 [benadida]
ACTION: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals for CC
14:24:41 [Ralph]
Ralph has joined #swbp
14:24:49 [Ralph]
apologies!
14:25:04 [Zakim]
+Ralph
14:25:06 [DanC]
but based on what I know, I'd say, conservatively, that the ability to express plain literals is a requirement.
14:25:17 [RRSAgent]
See http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-25-06
14:26:33 [DanC]
StevenP: HTML WG meets ftf 1st week of Nov
14:26:40 [DanC]
... so input before then is best.
14:26:53 [DanC]
... 8-9 Nov 2004
14:27:14 [jjc]
Steven: :Last Call is waiting on this
14:27:51 [jjc]
ACTION: jjc verify that nodeID attribute addresses bnode issue
14:28:42 [jjc]
reification e-mail
14:28:44 [benadida]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Sep/0020.html
14:28:51 [DanC]
JJC: as http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/2004Sep/0020.html shows, RDF/A is OK w.r.t. reification
14:28:58 [jjc]
Jeremy: point is that there isn't a problem.
14:31:38 [jjc]
Steven introduces RDF/A
14:31:49 [jjc]
http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html
14:32:06 [DanC]
q+ to note that the CC use case doesn't look right
14:32:21 [jjc]
q+ note that plain literals stuff looks ok
14:32:28 [jjc]
q+ to note that plain literals stuff looks ok
14:32:46 [benadida]
q-
14:32:50 [jjc]
Steven: moved from resource to href
14:33:02 [jjc]
motivated by CC, also makes it look more like html 4
14:33:29 [dom]
ack DanC
14:33:29 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note that the CC use case doesn't look right
14:33:33 [jjc]
DanC: finds minor issue with CC use case
14:33:49 [Ralph]
minor?
14:34:27 [Ralph]
DanC: example 6.1 says "the statements are not about the document", whereas CC does want to say something about the document
14:34:28 [jjc]
Marks question about="" or about = "#" ?
14:34:30 [DanC]
this document is ""
14:34:31 [jjc]
DanC ""
14:34:35 [jjc]
Jeremy ""
14:34:57 [Ralph]
Steven: about='' is ok
14:34:59 [DanC]
I think about="" will get ignored by the deployed stuff.
14:35:38 [jjc]
Steven: meta stuff was always implicitly about this doc, now being made explicit
14:36:31 [Ralph]
Ralph: about='' conforms to an RDF/XML usage pattern too, so that's good
14:36:55 [DanC]
q+ to ask if ben has thought about the impact of the XHTML 2.0 namespace and media type on CC deployment
14:37:20 [jjc]
STeven: default about="" on head
14:37:29 [benadida]
q-
14:37:33 [jjc]
This allows current authors to continue their practice
14:37:34 [DanC]
(I don't see that in the psuedocode under 7 Rules)
14:37:44 [Zakim]
jjc, you wanted to note that plain literals stuff looks ok
14:38:47 [jjc]
content= attribute
14:39:04 [jjc]
DanC notes that these means duplicating metadata which is visible
14:39:53 [Ralph]
DanC: eg. <... content="Ralph">Ralph</ ...
14:40:06 [dom]
zakim, unmute dom
14:40:06 [Zakim]
Dom should no longer be muted
14:41:15 [DanC]
JJC: tools perhaps don't support XMLLiteral in RDF well, but maybe it's OK to push in that direction by way of XHTML 2
14:41:41 [dom]
what about adding another attribute that distinguishes both cases?
14:42:10 [DanC]
I think another attribute was discussed earlier. Seems like a good idea, to me.
14:42:21 [dom]
maybe not going as far as allowing any datatypes, but at least separating XMLLiteral from plain literal
14:42:54 [DanC]
yes, we can hear, dom
14:42:55 [DanC]
oops
14:43:58 [dom]
à la "rdf:datatype"
14:45:23 [DanC]
<span content="456">456</span>
14:45:39 [jjc]
DanC: problem also for date strings etc ...
14:46:14 [jjc]
i.e. computer code rather than Natural Language content
14:47:08 [DanC]
(is there an XSLT thingy to grok RDF/A available?)
14:48:04 [jjc]
Steven: there's meant to be something XLST but it's not quite ready ...
14:49:12 [dom]
the XSLT can hardcode it
14:49:22 [DanC]
right
14:49:24 [jjc]
DanC: any default attr e.g. about="" should eb explciit in XSLT as well as in DTD
14:49:29 [benadida]
q
14:49:32 [DanC]
ack danc
14:49:32 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask if ben has thought about the impact of the XHTML 2.0 namespace and media type on CC deployment
14:49:36 [dom]
ie, if not(test(@about)) assume(about="")
14:50:13 [jjc]
ACTION: ben assess impact of namespace change on CC
14:50:38 [DanC]
and the media type
14:50:41 [dom]
note that XHTML 2.0 is the way forward, GRDDL can be used for the way backward
14:51:43 [dom]
ACTION 4= ben assess impact of namespace change on CC and the media type
14:53:16 [Steven]
ACTION: Steven and Mark to add about="" to example in 6.1
14:53:17 [jjc]
Moving on to feedback ...
14:53:29 [Ralph]
Ben: if CC can provide the chunk for an author to insert that is acceptable to HTML4 and gives the right semantics when users adopt XHTML2, that's good
14:53:40 [dom]
[I note that the new profile-based GRDDL may be easier to deploy than the profile+link one]
14:53:41 [Ralph]
DanC: but about='' isn't HTML4
14:53:42 [DanC]
(timecheck? I'm available to stay past the top of the hour to talk about the requirements document)
14:54:28 [jjc]
STeven: XHTML will reference RDF Concepts and Abstract Syntax
14:54:59 [DanC]
q+ to note jjc's point about bnodes conflicts with " RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] provides sufficient flexibility to represent all of the abstract concepts in RDF [RDF-CONCEPTS]."
14:56:16 [DanC]
ack danc
14:56:16 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to note jjc's point about bnodes conflicts with " RDF/XML [RDF-SYNTAX] provides sufficient flexibility to represent all of the abstract concepts in RDF
14:56:19 [Zakim]
... [RDF-CONCEPTS]."
14:56:48 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 [name?] is ...
14:57:01 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 is a full and valid syntax of RDF...
14:57:21 [DanC]
q+ to ask where the resulting graph is defined
14:57:47 [Steven]
Section 5: RDF Concepts
14:58:01 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 RDF Concepts is a useful design for expressing RDF graphs in XHTML 2
14:58:20 [Steven]
http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div150483264
14:58:56 [dom]
bye, sorry and thanks
14:59:22 [DanC]
PROPOSED: that the style of section 5 RDF Concepts is a useful design for expressing RDF graphs in XHTML 2, and references [RDF-CONCEPTS] normatively in a satisfactory way
14:59:39 [Ralph]
second this form
14:59:43 [DanC]
2nd
14:59:55 [DanC]
(the next thing is to ask for objections/abstentions)
15:00:07 [DanC]
(and then announce that we are resolved)
15:01:17 [DanC]
so RESOLVED.
15:01:46 [DanC]
umm... action somebody to tell the HTML WG? ah... stevenP is here; please let them know.
15:01:53 [benadida]
no problem, David :)
15:02:33 [Zakim]
-Dom
15:03:50 [Ralph]
jjc: ? about xml:lang
15:04:11 [Ralph]
... grddl transform must be specifed to add <span> elements
15:04:23 [Steven]
zakim, mute me
15:04:23 [Zakim]
Steven should now be muted
15:04:36 [Steven]
(Baby crying, I have to get him, so I am muted now)
15:05:08 [Ralph]
... see example 5.1.1.1
15:05:10 [DanC]
http://www.formsplayer.com/notes/rdf-a.html#div448277832
15:05:48 [DanC]
<head about="">
15:05:48 [DanC]
<meta property="dc:creator" content="Albert Einstein" />
15:05:48 [DanC]
<meta property="dc:title">E = mc<sup>2</sup>: The Most Urgent Problem of Our Time</meta>
15:05:48 [DanC]
</head>
15:05:53 [Ralph]
... see example 5.1.2.1
15:06:06 [Steven]
ack me
15:06:10 [Zakim]
-[Tucana]
15:08:07 [DanC]
ack danc
15:08:07 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to ask where the resulting graph is defined
15:10:48 [Ralph]
Steven: HTML WG f2f 8-9 Nov
15:11:54 [DanC]
SP suggests 2004-10-29 Fri
15:12:30 [DanC]
(conflicts with a SemWeb CG meeting, at which DanC, Swick, Danbri are expected. negotiable, but a little tricky)
15:12:58 [DanC]
(and DavidW)
15:13:36 [DanC]
10am Chicago time is OK for me.
15:13:46 [DanC]
11am Boston
15:14:01 [DanC]
JJC: I'd have just 60min, not 90, at that time.
15:14:08 [Ralph]
1500-1600 UTC 29 Oct
15:15:44 [Zakim]
-??P9
15:15:45 [Zakim]
-Steven
15:16:09 [Ralph]
zakim, aaaa is BenA
15:16:09 [Zakim]
+BenA; got it
15:16:27 [Ralph]
[adjourned]
15:16:50 [DanC]
http://esw.w3.org/topic/EmbeddingRDFinHTML
15:25:30 [DanC]
http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/SHOE/
15:27:29 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do i put this in my web page?" community
15:29:08 [Zakim]
-DanC
15:29:13 [Zakim]
-Ralph
15:29:14 [Zakim]
-BenA
15:29:15 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(xhtml)10:00AM has ended
15:29:16 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.617.230.aaaa, [Tucana], Dom, DanC, Steven, Ralph, BenA
15:29:19 [benadida]
benadida has left #swbp
15:29:20 [DanC]
yeah, did we decide to meet in a week? I sorta think we did.
15:29:37 [DanC]
the record should at least show that as a leading proposal
15:30:36 [Ralph]
I understood that we were going to meet on 29 Oct 1500-1600 UTC, yes
15:31:36 [dom]
regrets from me, then; I'll be in a F2F meeting
15:32:07 [Ralph]
noted
15:43:16 [Ralph]
rrsagent, bye
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items:
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to find someone to determine requirement with respect to FOAF and literals [1]
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-24-20
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Ben to determine requirement with respect to literals for CC [2]
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-24-34
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jjc verify that nodeID attribute addresses bnode issue [3]
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-27-51
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben assess impact of namespace change on CC and the media type [4]
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-50-13
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Steven and Mark to add about="" to example in 6.1 [5]
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T14-53-16
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: DanC to ask for contact from SHOE/DAML/OWL "how do i put this in my web page?" community [6]
15:43:16 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/22-swbp-irc#T15-27-29