IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-10-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

08:23:27 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
08:25:19 [sh1m]
sh1m has joined #wai-wcag
08:25:21 [ben]
advantage of making techniques non-normative is that they can be added to over time to cover things that are missing in current techniques drafts
08:28:22 [ben]
techniques for time-limits (general)
08:28:34 [ben]
avoid automated loops
08:29:26 [ben]
difficult to derive general techniques directly from success criteria
08:31:30 [ben]
tw - why not include general techniques in guidelines?
08:32:29 [ben]
one role of general techniques is to help people understand guidelines
08:34:16 [bengt]
what are the call in instructions ?
08:34:36 [ben]
hi bengt - we're on zakim (same as thursday call)
08:35:20 [ben]
when working from specs to derive techniques, things like the embed element would not be written about
08:35:38 [bengt]
zakim, who is online ?
08:35:38 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bengt.
08:35:48 [bengt]
zakim, who is on the phone ?
08:35:48 [Zakim]
sorry, bengt, I don't know what conference this is
08:35:49 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sh1m, RRSAgent, Zakim, Andi, Michael, David_MacDonald, ben, bengt, sh1mmer
08:36:09 [Michael]
zakim, this is wai
08:36:09 [Zakim]
ok, Michael; that matches WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM
08:36:27 [ben]
there is tension between specs and the code commonly used by authors
08:39:26 [ben]
keyboard interface group (reporting on gateway techniques breakout)
08:39:54 [Zakim]
08:39:58 [ben]
issues related to get to each function and each piece within that function (difficult to write)
08:40:06 [ben]
zakim, ??P2 is Bengt
08:40:06 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
08:40:18 [David_MacDonald]
hi Bengt..long time no talk
08:40:39 [ben]
is tab order abstract enough for general techniques?
08:41:08 [ben]
discussed using linear and nonlinear keyboard navigation
08:41:41 [ben]
provide options to move through documents in a logical order as well as to skip groups
08:42:20 [ben]
some overlap with navigation mechanisms guidelines?
08:42:47 [ben]
is tab order or navigation into functional groups going too far?
08:43:41 [ben]
minimum conformance might be to be able to get focus and interact using keyboard
08:43:54 [ben]
? is there some structure or order required as well?
08:44:47 [ben]
08:45:45 [ben]
are there success criteria that cover this? (not really under 3.2 or 2.1)
08:46:19 [ben]
?s about tab order and what we mean when we talk about it being "logical"?
08:47:38 [ben]
example of euroaccessiblity group on human testing - their goal was 999 of 1000 vs. 8 out of 10
08:48:09 [David_MacDonald]
can you put a mike beside Alester
08:49:12 [ben]
need for higher standard on human testability?
08:49:36 [ben]
euroaccessibility had a series of 7 tests related to this
08:50:00 [ben]
difficult to make testable staements wihout being technology specific
08:50:42 [David_MacDonald]
that's better
08:51:26 [ben]
ag - important to keep testable statements at techniques and checklists level up to date over time
08:53:07 [ben]
can make the 80% human testable higher through inclusion of clearer examples and test cases
08:53:49 [ben]
general techniques: report on guideline 3.2 breakout
08:54:03 [ben]
had 11 success criteria to deal with, only got through 3
08:55:38 [ben]
level on (extreme changes in context) - talked about pop up windows and changes in speaker for audio that is not visually determinable
08:55:59 [ben]
regarding new windows, what about opening a media player
08:56:15 [ben]
? is an alert box an extreme change in context (thought no, but not sure)
08:56:31 [ben]
was this an HTML technique that was incompletely generalized
08:56:55 [ben]
raised questions, no techniques proposed
08:57:16 [ben]
second criterion (consistent navigation)
08:57:40 [ben]
what are "components" that are repeated (other examples needed, what is covered?)
08:58:38 [ben]
next criterion, what does activation mean? (opening a pull down, putting focus in input box, changing state of checkbox or radio butons)
08:59:06 [ben]
? is this a UA issue that should not have to be in WCAG?
09:00:37 [ben]
other technologies (ex. flash) have potential to cause more drastic changes in content
09:01:07 [ben]
many issues (even in general techniques) with needing to go to technology-specifics to answer questions on interpretation of guidelines
09:02:20 [ben]
if we don't deal with over-general guidelines, we may run into problems going forward
09:04:10 [Michael]
3.2 avoid mistakes
09:04:14 [Michael]
forms - prompts, mistakes
09:04:19 [Michael]
identify required items
09:04:41 [Michael]
feedback on required fields, bad formatting
09:05:08 [Michael]
restricted values (list boxes)
09:05:34 [Michael]
way to reverse mistakes - review submission before confirmation, undo, cancel
09:05:44 [Michael]
breaking up long forms into multiple steps (pages)
09:06:07 [Michael]
Google example where it tries to help you with suggestions for improved spelling
09:06:29 [Michael]
Visual feedback e.g., "print this page" links where you don't know if it printed or not
09:07:14 [Michael]
Input options known but less than 75 - why that number, and why so high?
09:07:25 [Michael]
Plain language when reporting errors
09:08:24 [Michael]
Bugzilla-style help as an approach
09:09:46 [Michael]
That was "2.5 avoid mistakes" above...
09:10:38 [Michael]
Some of this was a question of whether it should be a technique or a success criterion
09:12:08 [ben]
how does this apply to voice XML? would verification be required for each input?
09:13:39 [ben]
many questions and issues to be addressed in General techniques
09:16:27 [ben]
issue; does having a general technique for each criterion make the guidelines more difficult to interpret - first two layers (guidelines and general techniques) are not tech specific, so may be making it more difficult for authors to get the information they need
09:16:32 [ben]
other big elephants:
09:16:47 [ben]
techniques for out of specification technologies (ex. embed)?
09:17:13 [ben]
general techniques - should some be success criteria?
09:17:24 [ben]
general techniques seem to get HTML specific at times
09:17:43 [ben]
standrard for testability (human) - rigorous enough?
09:19:21 [ben]
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09:19:50 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
09:20:31 [ben]
dm - previous proposal included general techniques at the same level as other technology specific - worth revisiting to allow peopel to dig deeper more quickly?
09:22:12 [ben]
some feedback suggests that WCAG 2.0 is too abstract - concern is that jumping into the code too quickly could lead to a lack of understanding
09:23:16 [David_MacDonald]
09:25:28 [ben]
ag - underlying issue for these issues - is it because we're trying to bind accessibility with usability?
09:28:27 [ben]
mc - line between the two is not a hard line
09:29:25 [ben]
HTML and CSS techs - you can use them to create a technically accessible techniques
09:29:41 [ben]
general feels "almost HTML specific"
09:29:58 [ben]
better way to organize?
09:31:17 [David_MacDonald]
louder please tom
09:36:36 [Andi]
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09:38:17 [sh1m]
sh1m has joined #wai-wcag
09:38:47 [Zakim]
09:38:49 [Zakim]
09:38:51 [Zakim]
09:38:52 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
09:38:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were Bengt
09:39:01 [bengt]
hehe :)
09:39:33 [sh1m]
zakim, who's on the pgone
09:39:33 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the pgone', sh1m
09:39:40 [sh1m]
zakim, who's on the phone?
09:39:40 [Zakim]
sorry, sh1m, I don't know what conference this is; apparently WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
09:39:42 [Zakim]
On IRC I see sh1m, Andi, Michael, ben, RRSAgent, Zakim, David_MacDonald, bengt, sh1mmer
09:53:30 [David_MacDonald]
09:54:36 [David_MacDonald]
I'm on the phone
09:54:45 [Michael]
ok, we'll be on in a few
09:55:06 [bengt]
zakim, this is wai_wcag
09:55:06 [Zakim]
ok, bengt; that matches WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM
09:55:13 [MattDUB]
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09:56:06 [MattDUB]
rrsagent, make log world
09:59:46 [Zakim]
09:59:47 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
09:59:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were
10:00:03 [bengt]
zakim, this is wai_wcag
10:00:03 [Zakim]
bengt, I see WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be wai_wcag".
10:00:05 [ben]
hi guys - just dialing in now
10:00:12 [bengt]
zakim, this will be wai_wcag
10:00:13 [Zakim]
ok, bengt; I see WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM scheduled to start 120 minutes ago
10:00:24 [bengt]
zakim, this is wai_wcag
10:00:24 [Zakim]
bengt, I see WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be wai_wcag".
10:00:37 [David_MacDonald]
l will be back on in 5 minutes but I'm in IRC
10:01:09 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has now started
10:01:16 [Zakim]
10:01:36 [ben]
zakim, ??P0
10:01:36 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P0', ben
10:02:06 [ben]
zakim, ??P0 is WG
10:02:06 [Zakim]
+WG; got it
10:02:22 [ben]
zaki, who is on the phone?
10:02:30 [ben]
zakim, who is on the phone?
10:02:30 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WG
10:03:03 [Andi]
Script Techniques - what's going on? what are the plans? what do you need people to work on?
10:03:28 [Andi]
Select lists - in HTML techniques as a "combo" technique
10:03:52 [Andi]
no such thing as pure JavaScript techniques
10:04:01 [Zakim]
10:04:18 [ben]
zakim, ??P1 is Bengt
10:04:18 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
10:04:51 [Andi]
JavaScript techniques document only has 7 techniques
10:05:21 [Andi]
know that the JavaScript techniques document needs to exist but beyond that, the purpose is unclear
10:05:49 [Andi]
is the purpose to describe how to use JavaScript in an accessible way or to avoid using JavaScript
10:06:19 [Andi]
need to flush out everything about JavaScript and create work items
10:07:04 [Andi]
use the time here to work on describing the problems vs. coming up with solutions
10:07:18 [Andi]
for example: bug in DHTML menus
10:08:05 [Andi]
want JavaScript techniques document to have code in it that people can really use
10:08:59 [Andi]
is the work being done on the UAAG side to complement the techniques?
10:10:10 [Andi]
so many different DHTML menuing systems
10:10:20 [Andi]
some work with AT and some don't
10:10:27 [Zakim]
10:11:15 [bengt]
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10:11:40 [Andi]
WCAG could test them and specify which ones work rather than describing how to write one from scratch
10:11:59 [Zakim]
10:12:17 [ben]
zakim, ??P1 is Bengt
10:12:17 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
10:12:29 [ben]
zakim, who is on the phone?
10:12:29 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WG, Bengt
10:12:42 [Andi]
have about 10 or 12 serious JavaScript developers - 3 or 4 have joined the working group, others available for feedback
10:12:53 [Andi]
next draft November 8th
10:12:53 [bengt]
hmm bluescreened computer ...
10:13:18 [Andi]
list of scenarios where JavaScript is a problem is the most valuable thing to do today
10:15:33 [Zakim]
10:15:45 [Andi]
what about other types of scripts?
10:16:04 [Andi]
constrained by the W3C to only provide techniques for W3C technologies
10:16:10 [David_MacDonald]
zakim +??P2 is David_MacDonald
10:16:26 [Andi]
technically, we are providing techniques for ECMA script - JavaScript is an implementation of ECMA script
10:16:30 [David_MacDonald]
zakim, +??P2 is David_MacDonald
10:16:30 [Zakim]
sorry, David_MacDonald, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2'
10:16:47 [Andi]
concepts should also apply to VB script
10:16:57 [bengt]
zakim, ??P2 is David_MacDonald
10:16:57 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
10:17:14 [David_MacDonald]
Thx Ben
10:18:07 [Andi]
bind events through the DOM rather than using embedded event handlers
10:19:05 [David_MacDonald]
Matt, tom a little louder please
10:19:37 [Andi]
could even get to the point where users can apply their own scripts to a site (external JavaScripts)
10:20:13 [Andi]
cross site scripting
10:22:03 [David_MacDonald]
I'll have a ham sandwich
10:22:08 [David_MacDonald]
10:22:12 [David_MacDonald]
10:24:58 [Andi]
try working through 1.3 as a group
10:27:03 [Andi]
L1 SC1 - Structures and relationships within the content can be programmatically determined.
10:33:50 [Andi]
been looking at scripting with HTML. what about scripting with SVG or something else?
10:34:27 [Andi]
not sure - for now, add to the list of things to do
10:35:09 [Andi]
need to resolve where we are on the <noscript> question
10:36:18 [Andi]
Michael believes that if the script doesn't do anything that needs to be or can be done another way, then the <noscript> element doesn't do anything
10:37:54 [Andi]
what about Web applications? what would go in the <noscript> element?
10:38:23 [Andi]
lose all the functionality if you don't have JavaScript
10:39:16 [Andi]
one technique is to create the application without script first, then add the script function
10:39:27 [Andi]
degrades naturally without the need for <noscript>
10:39:31 [Andi]
but this is double the work
10:40:56 [Andi]
general rule is to only remove stuff from the screen with scripts - don't add stuff
10:42:28 [Andi]
UI designers won't accept this
10:44:37 [Andi]
useful to work out whether or not we can just say that JavaScript is an accessibility barrier to some people
10:47:38 [Andi]
certain things, such as drop down menus, are easy to provide alternatives for
10:57:45 [ken]
ken has joined #wai-wcag
10:59:42 [Andi]
<noscript> should not be required if the page works with scripts disabled and you don't lose any content or functionality
11:02:51 [Andi]
could use technique on decorative images as the starting point for defining when a script is purely decorative
11:04:41 [Andi]
back to 1.3 L1 SC1 techniques
11:08:50 [Andi]
is there anything to say about this in scripting techniques
11:14:06 [Andi]
general techniques - information about why something is needed should be moved into the informative sections of the guidelines
11:15:34 [Andi]
HTML, CSS, and script techniques are interrelated
11:16:01 [Andi]
until we have some other techniques such as SVG and SMIL, we can't really work out what needs to go in the general techniques
11:21:05 [Andi]
have a lot of information that maps to level 1 conformance item but it's not required for minimum conformance - what do we do with it?
11:21:27 [Andi]
maybe we need to figure out what the technology specific requirements are first and then go back to the guidelines
11:21:58 [Andi]
guidelines are normative but we're on a track where the technology specific techniques are going to be treated as normative
11:22:57 [Andi]
guidelines are like a constitution, techniques are like laws
11:26:18 [Andi]
if we structure techniques as if they are normative, will that get us anywhere and will that get us to the point where the guidelines are normative and the techniques are not?
11:29:09 [David_MacDonald]
I'm ducking out to do my daily morning mass, I will light a candle for us. ....I'll be back. If you are on lunch I'll catch you after lunch
11:30:00 [jslatin]
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11:30:23 [ben]
zakim, who is on the phone?
11:30:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see WG, Bengt, David_MacDonald
11:30:28 [Andi]
with regard to 1.3, not all of the things currently listed in the HTML techniques for L1 SC1 should really be required for Level 1 conformance
11:30:56 [Andi]
this is identifying a problem with the success criteria in the guidelines
11:31:52 [jslatin]
Hi, everyone!
11:32:12 [Zakim]
11:32:42 [Andi]
one approace - create techniques, identify which are required and which are optional, assign conformance levels, then use that to validate the guidelines
11:34:50 [Andi]
approace = approach
11:38:48 [Andi]
Hi John, I just noticed you there
11:38:49 [bengt]
Hi John
11:39:42 [jslatin]
Hi, andi, hi, bengt. just got here, will stay for 30 min then go to office & log back in
11:39:50 [Andi]
11:39:54 [Andi]
we're about to break for lunch
11:40:20 [jslatin]
Well then I'm just in time! Have some for me.
11:41:05 [Andi]
we're breaking for lunch now and will continue this discussion of required vs. optional techniques after lunch
11:41:51 [jslatin]
Good. See you later then.
11:44:08 [Zakim]
11:44:15 [bengt]
going to take a swim now :)
11:44:18 [Zakim]
11:44:19 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
11:44:20 [Zakim]
Attendees were WG, Bengt, David_MacDonald
12:43:59 [ben]
back from break
12:44:34 [ben]
making progress on sorting techniques
12:45:05 [ben]
categegories: priority 1, priority 2, priority 3, optional, remove/deprecate
12:47:05 [Andi]
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12:47:36 [ben]
where possible, note places where techniques might be priority 1, but would change default presentation
12:47:43 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
12:48:43 [ben]
Starting with HTML techniques (Oct 8, 2004 draft)
12:49:30 [ben]
1.1 (doctype) - P1 - 10 votes
12:52:57 [jslatin]
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13:21:38 [Andi]
Hi John
13:22:34 [MattDUB]
John, we're voting on priorities for techniques. If you want to follow along and vote over IRC, I'll vote for you.
13:24:08 [jslatin]
Thanks. I'll try to call in.
13:24:43 [jslatin]
Says I'm the first one on the call right now...
13:24:45 [MattDUB]
could be easier just to do this over irc...
13:25:16 [MattDUB]
we can dial in, but there's not much discussion, just voting.
13:25:53 [jslatin]
Not really. In IRC I have to shitft+tab to get to the transcript window and then JAWS reads me the *whole* window in order to read the most recent message. Voting this way wd be sort of like using the voting machines downstairs in my building...
13:26:18 [MattDUB]
ok. we'll dial in.
13:26:49 [jslatin]
13:27:44 [MattDUB]
Becky is dutifully entering the 80 digits required to call via phone card...
13:29:28 [jslatin]
Thanks, Becky. I know it's a pain. But I get no audible cue when new msgs come into IRC so I do sort of random shift-tabbing & JAWS throws in all sorts of wierd characters-- says PIE for lienbreaks (I think it's line breaks...) for instance
13:30:03 [MattDUB]
mmm. pie.
13:30:17 [Andi]
what kind of pie?
13:30:24 [MattDUB]
want pie now.
13:38:58 [bengt]
zakim, this is wai_wcag
13:38:58 [Zakim]
ok, bengt; that matches WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM
13:39:13 [bengt]
zakim, who is on the phone ?
13:39:13 [Zakim]
On the phone I see John_Slatin, ??P5, ??P6
13:39:25 [bengt]
zakim, ??P6 is bengt
13:39:25 [Zakim]
+bengt; got it
13:40:31 [ben]
hi bengt, we're walking the HTML techniques document to sort it into WCAG 1.0 type priority levels
13:40:47 [bengt]
13:40:53 [ben]
we're currently on 9.5 of HTML techniques
13:42:01 [ben]
if you'd like to vote, just hit a number on your phone when michael runs through the votes (priority 1, priority 2, priority 3, optional, and kill)
13:50:39 [ben]
action: michael - remove HTML technique 9.11
13:51:16 [ben]
action michael - remove HTML technique 9.12
13:52:14 [bengt]
ben ?? is 9.11 really correct
13:52:16 [Zakim]
13:53:30 [ben]
hi david, we're walking the HTML techniques document to sort it into WCAG 1.0 type priority levels
13:53:50 [ben]
we're currently on HTML 9.14
13:54:01 [David_MacDonald]
13:55:10 [ben]
if you'd like to vote, just hit a number on your phone when michael runs through the votes (priority 1, priority 2, priority 3, optional, and kill)
13:55:26 [ben]
we're not discussing these as we go, just quick straw poll
13:56:57 [bengt]
indentation is really strange
13:57:47 [jslatin]
is target deprecated in xhtml?
13:58:05 [ben]
indentation? in the draft?
13:58:40 [bengt]
hmm, I got the wrong one up as in the wai/gl reference instead of f2f reference
13:58:42 [David_MacDonald]
ben could you pop in the URL of the latest
13:59:23 [bengt]
wai/gl doenst refer to the latest
14:00:08 [ben]
14:14:04 [jslatin]
Kill d-link, P1 for onscreen link to long description
14:18:48 [jslatin]
What about <p title="desc_of_Figure2">yetta yatta</p>?
14:21:59 [Zakim]
14:24:12 [Zakim]
14:24:28 [bengt]
hmm, 924 and I got in
14:24:39 [bengt]
zakim, ??P6 is bengt
14:24:39 [Zakim]
+bengt; got it
14:25:05 [ben]
hi guys - 15 minute break
14:25:09 [Zakim]
14:25:12 [Zakim]
14:25:13 [Zakim]
14:25:14 [Zakim]
14:25:15 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
14:25:16 [Zakim]
Attendees were John_Slatin, bengt
14:25:29 [bengt]
zakim, this will be wai_wcag
14:25:29 [Zakim]
"wai_wcag" matches WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM, and WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM, bengt
14:37:26 [Michael]
Michael has joined #wai-wcag
14:41:16 [David_MacDonald]
test 1,2,3
14:41:35 [bengt]
network down ?
14:42:48 [Michael]
we just got real internet access, went down during the switchover
14:42:51 [David_MacDonald]
i see you bengt so
14:42:54 [Michael]
we're dialed into the phone now
14:43:24 [bengt]
zakim, this is wai_wcag
14:43:24 [Zakim]
ok, bengt; that matches WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM
14:43:35 [Zakim]
14:43:37 [bengt]
zakim, who is on the phone ?
14:43:37 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Wendy, ??P1
14:43:56 [David_MacDonald]
zakim, ??P1 is David_MacDonald
14:43:56 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
14:43:58 [Michael]
zakim, Wendy is temporarily WG
14:43:58 [Zakim]
+WG; got it
14:44:24 [Zakim]
14:44:35 [bengt]
zakim, ??P3 is bengt
14:44:35 [Zakim]
+bengt; got it
14:44:39 [MattDUB]
MattDUB has joined #wai-wcag
14:49:15 [Michael]
zakim, who's making noise?>
14:49:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's making noise?>', Michael
14:49:19 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
14:49:19 [Michael]
zakim, who's making noise?
14:49:30 [Zakim]
Michael, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: WG (29%), David_MacDonald (5%), bengt (39%)
14:49:37 [bengt]
mute me
14:49:43 [MattDUB]
zakim, mute bengt
14:49:43 [Zakim]
bengt should now be muted
14:49:48 [MattDUB]
14:49:54 [Zakim]
14:49:55 [bengt]
hmm, I have mute on in this ened
14:53:21 [Michael]
ack john
15:05:14 [jslatin]
are those approaches mutually exclusive?
15:28:24 [Michael]
ack john
15:48:01 [MattDUB]
15:48:10 [MattDUB]
2.3 Render conditional content
16:06:17 [jslatin]
Allegory strikes again!
16:09:36 [Michael]
what did you guys just say?
16:09:50 [bengt]
zakim, who is making nois ?
16:09:50 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, bengt.
16:09:56 [bengt]
zakim, who is making noise ?
16:10:06 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: WG (91%), David_MacDonald (28%)
16:10:22 [bengt]
starting time 8.30 ?
16:11:14 [bcaldwell]
16:15:23 [bengt]
ok need to go
16:15:46 [Zakim]
16:21:44 [jslatin]
I can go thru rest of HTML techs and "vote" on each one and email it to Michael...
16:29:12 [Zakim]
16:37:15 [Zakim]
16:37:16 [Zakim]
16:37:17 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(f2f)4:00AM has ended
16:37:18 [Zakim]
Attendees were David_MacDonald, WG, bengt, John_Slatin
16:38:33 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has left #wai-wcag
16:40:22 [MattDUB]
MattDUB has left #wai-wcag
18:15:18 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag