20:02:19 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 20:02:24 rrsagent, make logs world 20:02:38 +??P6 20:02:51 +John_Slatin 20:02:55 zakim, ??P6 is David_MacDonald 20:02:55 +David_MacDonald; got it 20:03:36 +??P7 20:03:43 +Alex_Li 20:03:53 +JasonWhite 20:03:54 +Matt 20:04:00 zakim, ??P7 is Takayuki_Watanabe 20:04:00 +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it 20:04:04 zakim, mute me 20:04:04 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:04:11 zakim, unmute me 20:04:11 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:04:14 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:04:14 On the phone I see Makoto_Ueki, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Castaldo, Gregg_and_Ben, Michael_Cooper, Avi, David_MacDonald, John_Slatin, Takayuki_Watanabe, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Matt 20:04:18 zakim, who is here? 20:04:18 On the phone I see Makoto_Ueki, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Castaldo, Gregg_and_Ben, Michael_Cooper, Avi, David_MacDonald, John_Slatin, Takayuki_Watanabe, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Matt 20:04:21 On IRC I see RRSAgent, gregg, nabe, rcastaldo, bcaldwell, Zakim, bengt, Yvette_Hoitink, Michael, sh1mmer 20:04:44 zakim, I am Takayuki_Watanabe 20:04:44 ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuki_Watanabe 20:05:01 +[Microsoft] 20:05:14 David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag 20:05:20 zakim, Microsoft is Mike_Barta 20:05:20 +Mike_Barta; got it 20:05:26 David will scribe 20:05:49 summary of techniques 20:06:20 zakim, mute me 20:06:20 Takayuki_Watanabe should now be muted 20:06:59 testin is big issue working through it only have tests for HTML, reasos for testing 1) quality assurance 2) 20:07:40 lots of work on techniques..how they relate to test files , lots of holes in mapping techiques with no SC, & ice versa 20:08:17 latest mapping document: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/10/8-sc-techniques-mapping.html 20:08:34 sometimes echniue nis at a different level of conformance than we feel necessary...don't know what to do about it but will figure it out...don't want to make eople conform at levels they don['t eed to. 20:08:58 zakim, mute me 20:08:58 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:09:06 some techniques qre not supported by user agents brings us to old future techniques etc 20:09:21 looking to checklists to solve someor allthese problems 20:09:40 lots of questionsfor face 2 f about 20:10:53 another question about do you put techniques that should work but are not supported 20:10:57 +??P11 20:11:06 I won't be there :-( 20:11:19 roberto, too bad 20:11:20 agenda+ F2F 20:11:23 John slati and david macdonald will be on phone meeting dialing to face 2 face 20:11:24 next agendum 20:11:28 bengt too 20:11:39 IWA is a very "poor" association :-) 20:11:45 Chris & Jenae & maybe jason 20:11:52 agenda+ Propsal: Issue 381 - John's cleanup of 3.1 example 20:11:55 zakim, ??P11 is Bengt_Farre 20:11:55 +Bengt_Farre; got it 20:12:01 zakim, mute me 20:12:01 Yvette_Hoitink was already muted, Yvette_Hoitink 20:12:04 zakim, unmute me 20:12:04 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:12:08 agenda+ Open issues 20:13:01 total dial i for F2F: Bengt, David MacDOnald, John SLatin, Jenae, Chris 20:13:08 & Jason 20:14:16 times willon GL homepage w3.org/wai/gl 20:14:38 agenda+ Discussion of public comments submitted by JIS (25 min.) 20:14:42 agenda? 20:14:57 next agendum 20:15:17 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=381 20:15:23 proposal, a#381 john's cleanup of 3.1 example 20:15:29 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004OctDec/0084.html 20:17:13 JS: one example response to things that participant from JIS and discussion, & harvy bingham about abstract & concrete things - volcao erupting. complex vs. concrete. an attempt to retain example with links 20:17:43 zakim, mute me 20:17:43 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:17:46 ohter examles in plain language rewrite 20:18:29 MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag 20:21:18 recommendation replaces label for a concrete concept, now an example of a complex concept enhance by different media, nontext to make it easy to understand 20:23:10 JS will resubmit cause multi media wet to a different page. which doesn't make sense as a way to make originalo page accessible so JS will modify that the multi media is on the same page. 20:23:42 the word "wet" above is "went" 20:25:48 GV suggests that the example removes the word site and leave its location ambiguous 20:26:03 zakim, unmute me 20:26:03 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:26:36 To clarify this explanation, there is also a link to an accessible video and 3D simulation of what happened underneath the crust and within the volcano during the eruption. 20:27:44 Unanimous agreement that everyone wants to do the above 20:28:15 Suggest we kill current ex 3 in guidline about school child report 20:28:29 proposed by js 20:30:01 unanimous concent to delete the above child report of school trip 20:30:11 open issues 20:30:26 zakim, unmute me 20:30:26 Takayuki_Watanabe should no longer be muted 20:30:54 3 more JIS people will join in 30 minutes 20:30:54 zakim, mute me 20:30:54 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:30:59 next agendum 20:31:16 -=----------------------------------------------- 20:31:21 new issue 20:31:47 ideas for proscessing open issues. we have 585 open issues 20:32:20 zakim, unmute me 20:32:20 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:32:23 one at a time will take several presidential elections :-) 20:34:08 GV suggests everybody look at guidlines and pick your favorite one. and walk the guidlene and all the points that go with it. find open ones and mke proposals, sentence 20:34:22 JS takes 3.1 20:34:34 DM takes 1.4 & 1.5 20:34:44 fYvette takes 2.4 20:35:21 I'd like 1.3 20:35:26 WC 1.1 20:35:36 WC 1.2 20:36:05 Mike marta Microsoft 2.1 20:36:33 action: john issue summary for 3.1 20:36:56 action: david issue summary for 1.4 20:37:01 Yvette takes 1.3 20:37:14 action: yvette issue summary for 2.4 20:37:23 action: mike issue summary for 2.1 20:37:49 action: roberto castaldo issue summary for 2.2 20:38:07 action: yvette issue summary for 1.3 20:38:14 action: gregg issue summary for 2.3 20:40:51 action: ben issue summary for 4.1 20:43:21 current draft in link generates bugzilla search after the normitive (blue ) section of each guidline auto to page with all issues. links at top show only normative, all informatives. not necessary to do bugzilla search 20:44:07 zakim, mute me 20:44:07 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:44:23 GV asks if anyone wants to take bugs that are orphans not associated with document guidlines 20:44:55 zakim, unmute me 20:44:55 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:44:56 q+ 20:45:04 GV ask Ben to make a link in the GUidlines to non specific bugs 20:45:13 masahiro has joined #wai-wcag 20:45:56 GV says read all y0our issues and if anything big shows up send an email to the list. 20:45:57 action: everyone - send Gregg and email on issues you encounter that are major problems 20:46:07 +??P12 20:46:42 timelines for issue summaries - big issues to list before next week, by wed 20:46:57 issue summaries in the next week or two 20:47:19 zakim, mute me 20:47:19 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:47:28 zakim, unmute me 20:47:28 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:47:53 zakim, ??P12 may be masahiro 20:47:53 +masahiro?; got it 20:47:58 zakim, mute ??P12 20:47:58 sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named '??P12' 20:48:05 zakim, mute masahiro? 20:48:05 masahiro? should now be muted 20:48:19 I'm sorry my IP phone's mic seems something wrong. 20:48:42 unmute press 60# 20:48:42 masahiro, just say "zakim, unmute me" if you want to say something 20:49:01 zakim, masahiro? is masahiro 20:49:01 +masahiro; got it 20:49:10 type "zakim, unmute me" 20:49:33 gregg, yes: _saying_ it to the computer won't help :-) 20:49:51 However I can hear your discussion. 20:50:13 Doyle says If you don't declare a doctype and manually review cod can you still pass 4.1 20:50:27 masahiro, that's the idea. You can follow the discussion but your microphone is switched off so you don't produce noise 20:51:27 zakim, mute me 20:51:27 Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted 20:52:27 zakim, unmute me 20:52:27 Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted 20:52:41 GV does anyone believe that testing means automatic only....tgroup says no, 20:52:52 zakim, unmute me. 20:52:52 sorry, masahiro, I do not see a party named 'me.' 20:53:08 q- 20:53:10 Uanimous consent that we tdo not requrire automatic check 20:53:14 ack Yvette 20:53:18 ack John 20:53:41 JS we don't want to require auto validation but we allow it, GV says yes 20:54:04 Zakim ,mute me 20:54:48 GV do we want to require that people declare what spec they are using, YH say no , GV says NO 20:55:04 GV says people won't know what they are using 20:56:39 GV If the spec does not requre that you name its versio then our guideline doesn't either 20:57:47 Mat May, all HML and XML require doctype statement. 20:58:32 MAT ; if no doctype declare these technologies go into quirk mode which is a big problem today 20:58:46 Unanimous consent that we do not require a declaration... 20:59:09 q+ 20:59:14 q- 20:59:20 next agendum 20:59:21 because the technologies that require declarations already do 20:59:26 __________________________________________________ 20:59:32 new topic 20:59:34 JIS 20:59:52 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1144 21:02:23 Guideline 2.4 L2 SC 1: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1147 21:02:27 We will focus o issues guideline 2.4, a sentence in Japaese and other languages does not have words 21:02:57 GV: what is a symbol in (conji?) Japanese 21:03:15 I am sorry "do not contain words" is not an appropriate expression. 21:03:16 Japanese sentence does contain words but we use another unit to count 21:03:17 length. 21:03:38 describes the length of a sentence by the number of characters not words 21:03:59 when they describe length of document they use the umber f characters 21:04:35 sp confi/kanji 21:04:37 the number of characters changes in different japanese languages 21:04:48 thx mike you rock 21:05:21 q+ 21:06:40 japaese braille requires spaces betwe words. insert spaces between spaces to write oute braille therefore doesn't the concpts of words work? 21:08:24 do some words require mulitple kanji characters 21:08:34 yews 21:08:35 yes 21:09:14 Tak: 50,000 words hard to translate 21:10:27 q- 21:11:06 GV : the # of words are temporary ideas to explore the concept eg. a long document should have chapters but not a short one. Do you have ay suggestions? Takayuki 21:12:20 For example, "This is a book." is "Korehahondesu." in Japanese. 21:12:21 (I use Roman-characters expression instead of writing Japanese with 21:12:22 Japanese characters.) 21:12:34 "kore" "ha" "hon" "desu" is similar units as English words. 21:12:35 "kore" corresponds "This", "hon" corresponds "a book", and both "ha" 21:12:36 and "desu" corresponds to "is". 21:12:36 GV what does a word mean? can we work with the conept of words... 21:12:37 We, however, do not think this way but we think this sentence 21:12:38 consisting of "kore-ha" and "hon-desu". "kore-ha" and "hon-desu" is 21:12:39 Bunsetu, which acts like a phrase. 21:13:34 q+ to say "number of sentences as threshold" 21:14:00 GV says OK we have to find another solution...we understand the problem and will work on it. 21:16:12 GV does every language have sentences? NABE says no, but mike says can't go there, cause a book can be a paragraph 21:16:22 in some slavic languages 21:16:43 ack Jason 21:16:46 GV we'll come back to it 21:16:46 ack jason 21:16:49 q- 21:16:49 ack john 21:18:20 JS What is "long" in Japanese, Tak : we use # of Characters. 21:18:44 Correction: GV does every language have sentences? NABE DOES NOT say no, 21:18:54 50000 words in English, = ### characters in Japanese 21:19:13 GV asks is there a spellcheker in Japanese 21:19:36 alex says not in chenese Tak say not in Japanese either 21:19:41 q+ to say "no spelling errors either?" 21:20:59 When text entry is required the text is checked and correct choices are suggested. get away from word "spell" 21:24:52 Thx NABE for the correction 21:25:23 your welcome. :-) 21:25:33 ack Yvette 21:25:33 Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "no spelling errors either?" 21:27:09 finite and known vs the concept of rules and known 21:28:22 q+ 21:28:29 ack john 21:28:33 Guidline 3.1 level 3 the list is oriented to english, JIS suggests it not be normative 21:28:43 http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=1149 21:30:01 GV: this guiline is very long and is also causing language barrier problems. 21:30:09 -Takayuki_Watanabe 21:30:48 sorry I used up my Skype Credit. I cannot purchace another credit now. 21:31:46 q+ 21:31:47 q+ 21:31:48 GV suggests rephrase the guidline as its objectives and let the technical documents taje care of the language specific details 21:31:50 ack gregg 21:32:23 ack Yvette 21:32:30 -Michael_Cooper 21:32:36 Takayuki is off the p0hone but on irc right 21:33:59 ack Matt 21:34:38 Matt: proposes complexity of didferent languages we should say "you should adopt a styleguide" 21:34:52 GV get it out of guidlines 21:34:53 ack Jason 21:35:00 address it elsewhere 21:35:04 Jason agrees 21:35:41 JW the grammer of indiginous languages will not work in current approach 21:36:03 we need flexibility such as Matt's suggestion 21:36:18 --------------------------------------- 21:36:23 Sorry I'm in trouble to make an international call by another IP phone. 21:37:12 We are glad you are still with us in IRC Tak :-) 21:37:54 agree 21:38:05 GV is there a general consensus to go ahead and find wording in main guidlenes that would move the specific language approach used currently 21:38:21 But it is almost impossible to follow the discussion. :-) 21:38:25 yes general consensous to re-write 21:38:46 action: JS will take this on 21:39:44 action: JS will reword 3.1 level 3 to make it less english specific. (remove action 10 replace it with this) 21:41:16 ack Jason 21:41:48 JW: we shouold not set a baseline but a general criteria for setting baselines 21:42:22 ack John 21:42:44 JW: changing wording for easy translations, cause other languages could have trouble with it so let translators do the job properlly 21:43:21 JS says wendy will put documet in front of european translators looking for problems as the Japanese have done 21:44:28 GV perhaps we need a better glossary, we need to watch for jargon and idium, avoid idum completely, sometimes need jargon. we wll walk them one at a time 21:45:05 ALex : no need for baseline if we follow standards. 21:45:41 GV: can't assume that every browser can handle every technology 21:46:35 alex: follow open standards. GV says: are you saying can't use non-open standards such as "flash" 21:47:02 Thank you JIS for early wake up 21:47:31 look forward to JIS joining us in Doublin 21:47:38 Have a good meeting 21:47:43 -Avi 21:47:44 -Mike_Barta 21:47:46 Hi folks 21:47:49 -Bengt_Farre 21:47:50 -Alex_Li 21:47:51 -JasonWhite 21:47:53 -Matt 21:47:54 -John_Slatin 21:47:54 -Gregg_and_Ben 21:47:55 -David_MacDonald 21:47:55 rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag 21:47:56 -Roberto_Castaldo 21:47:57 -Yvette_Hoitink 21:47:57 I and Makoto Ueki will join f2f in Dublin 21:48:03 -Makoto_Ueki 21:48:19 Thank you everyone for discussing JIS comments 21:48:47 I will not be in doublin but will wish you guys the best and talk on the phoe 21:48:50 -masahiro 21:48:51 WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended 21:48:52 Attendees were Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Castaldo, Gregg_and_Ben, Makoto_Ueki, Michael_Cooper, Avi, John_Slatin, David_MacDonald, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Matt, Takayuki_Watanabe, 21:48:54 ... [Microsoft], Mike_Barta, Bengt_Farre, masahiro 21:49:28 Thanks for inviting me. 21:50:12 nabe has left #wai-wcag 21:50:41 masahiro has left #wai-wcag 21:51:02 MattSEA has left #wai-wcag 21:53:31 rrsagent, bye 21:53:31 I see 11 open action items: 21:53:31 ACTION: john issue summary for 3.1 [1] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-36-33 21:53:31 ACTION: david issue summary for 1.4 [2] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-36-56 21:53:31 ACTION: yvette issue summary for 2.4 [3] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-37-14 21:53:31 ACTION: mike issue summary for 2.1 [4] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-37-23 21:53:31 ACTION: roberto castaldo issue summary for 2.2 [5] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-37-49 21:53:31 ACTION: yvette issue summary for 1.3 [6] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-38-07 21:53:31 ACTION: gregg issue summary for 2.3 [7] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-38-14 21:53:31 ACTION: ben issue summary for 4.1 [8] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-40-51 21:53:31 ACTION: everyone - send Gregg and email on issues you encounter that are major problems [9] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T20-45-57 21:53:31 ACTION: JS will take this on [10] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T21-38-46 21:53:31 ACTION: JS will reword 3.1 level 3 to make it less english specific. (remove action 10 replace it with this) [11] 21:53:31 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/10/14-wai-wcag-irc#T21-39-44