IRC log of wmca on 2004-10-13
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 10:36:46 [RRSAgent]
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- 10:38:24 [maxf]
- maxf has joined #wmca
- 10:38:37 [maxf]
- heya
- 10:45:47 [wendy]
- xya, nokia: related to xforms?
- 10:45:53 [wendy]
- ls yes. it's a fantastic accessible platform.
- 10:46:12 [maxf]
- xya is Oskari
- 10:46:22 [wendy]
- ls few people are building xforms. convert html forms to xforms.
- 10:46:57 [wendy]
- ls add metadata and render as xforms. but if user agent doesn't
suppport, can render as html form and reposition the text so that the
label sits with the input.
- 10:47:14 [wendy]
- ls onc eyou know that this piece of text is help for the form
control, can adjust the presentation.
- 10:47:24 [wendy]
- roland, ibm
- 10:47:56 [wendy]
- roland: you can't use the same words/sentence structures...people
admitting to be blind....admitting reading level is a bigger
problem.
- 10:48:16 [wendy]
- roland dealing with quantity of info, is a staggering problem. UK
govnt, 80% of users, 20% are disadvantaged.
- 10:48:28 [wendy]
- roland it's more than expanding acronyms, they couldn't understand
the concepts
- 10:48:34 [wendy]
- ls
- 10:48:52 [wendy]
- ls can't make site available to everyone. some people will not
undersatnd.
- 10:49:10 [wendy]
- ls why we need to move out of the page. can't make "a page" that is a
good experience for everyone.
- 10:49:38 [wendy]
- ls need to reach the people who can understand the concepts
- 10:50:01 [wendy]
- ls text is a barrier to understanding the concepts. perhaps with page
map, they can understand.
- 10:51:05 [wendy]
- ===
- 10:51:56 [wendy]
- Uni. Dresden, Gerald Hubsch
- 11:08:37 [wendy]
- oops. m issed the question
- 11:08:47 [wendy]
- gh the fragmentation takes place before teh xslt is applied.
- 11:08:56 [wendy]
- gh split up into most # of atoms.
- 11:09:16 [wendy]
- gh wml cmoplier generate, documentvalidation validates...don't know
if validates for all documents
- 11:09:25 [wendy]
- fabio generate the markup before deciding how long
- 11:09:30 [wendy]
- gh at run time is one option
- 11:09:39 [wendy]
- rhys happy to see xpath.
- 11:09:50 [wendy]
- rhys hav eyou looked at our xpath spec in content selection
- 11:09:58 [wendy]
- rl it's worth a look
- 11:10:14 [wendy]
- rl device classification: interest in how you do that and axes
- 11:10:26 [wendy]
- gh for the protype it's straightforward. mobile, pda, notebook
- 11:10:38 [wendy]
- gh othe rapproaches used in rendering language devloped in consensus
project
- 11:10:59 [wendy]
- gh use device classification that divides into 7 classes depend on
input/output capabilities, voice capable, etc
- 11:11:12 [wendy]
- rl we know aobut that project, just wondering
- 11:11:37 [wendy]
- rl my company does this commercially, the fragmenation is about
device capability and not about author choice.
- 11:11:53 [wendy]
- rl you might find mileage about putting it outside of content
- 11:12:03 [wendy]
- rl diff splitting/device could get you some mileage
- 11:12:19 [wendy]
- gh agree that keep structure info about semantically related from the
content is more effective
- 11:12:42 [wendy]
- rh if using a tree there is inherent semantic interpretation in
traversing tree is same path as dialog
- 11:12:49 [wendy]
- rh in some cases, more appropriate to change the order
- 11:12:56 [wendy]
- rh in your scenario, can't do that
- 11:13:08 [wendy]
- gh split it up into components? ya, ok
- 11:13:16 [wendy]
- rh what use for fragment url?
- 11:13:48 [wendy]
- gh after fragmentation, those fragments cached for sequential
delivery to the client, after the client has finished it decides if
whoel doc or part of doc has been fetched.
- 11:13:57 [wendy]
- gh decides which fragment to deliver next
- 11:14:02 [wendy]
- gh delivers from cache
- 11:14:10 [wendy]
- rh what is the tech used for fragment uri. just id?
- 11:14:12 [wendy]
- gh just id
- 11:14:30 [wendy]
- rh it's a resurfacing debate about how to reference something in a
document
- 11:14:46 [wendy]
- oskari...
- 11:15:08 [wendy]
- gh there are options to include layout information, specific
properties. filte rproperties out for diff devices
- 11:15:15 [wendy]
- ===
- 11:15:43 [wendy]
- BT, Tim Glover
- 11:33:39 [wendy]
- icra, at what point did you think metadata would be useful?
- 11:34:03 [wendy]
- tg html itself is not data, it has suggestions for how to lay things
out. to me, that's metadata.
- 11:34:21 [wendy]
- rh this shows how far you can get w/out metadta. gives a hint for
essential metadata.
- 11:34:34 [wendy]
- ah what is approach thinking for accessibilit preferences? recommend
IMS AccLip
- 11:35:02 [wendy]
- bb how do you select a template?
- 11:35:19 [wendy]
- tg conditional elements w/in template. create a template for each
uri, in order. first will be selected.
- 11:35:28 [wendy]
- bb those conditions...isn't that metadat?
- 11:35:38 [wendy]
- tg based on device profile
- 11:35:57 [wendy]
- tg simple boolean. want more sophisticated
- 11:36:02 [wendy]
- bb like media queries?
- 11:36:05 [wendy]
- tg yes, like
- 11:36:22 [wendy]
- sb what did you say about expression querying profile? in doc, in
server?
- 11:36:39 [wendy]
- tg each template associated with a condition. outside condition, can
associate templates.
- 11:36:54 [wendy]
- sb have a file w/all templates?
- 11:37:01 [wendy]
- tg yes, all tempaltes, mimetypes, and conditions
- 11:37:10 [wendy]
- sb exploring in diwg.
- 11:37:15 [wendy]
- tg it has include built in
- 11:37:21 [wendy]
- sb based on spec or your own?
- 11:37:32 [wendy]
- tg i can say %include [file]
- 11:37:36 [wendy]
- tg server-side include
- 11:37:56 [wendy]
- xyz i've written lots of xslt, however this approach seems to suffer
from same thing as xslt. very specific for a specific page.
- 11:38:02 [maxf]
- Owen
- 11:38:05 [wendy]
- .. how reusable are they?
- 11:38:17 [wendy]
- tg suggest we use sql, it is much more abstract
- 11:38:35 [wendy]
- tg for small apps, you have a stable dtd, you can write templates
that match.
- 11:38:57 [wendy]
- tg personally, feel that a relational database is superior way. sql
is supier to xquery.
- 11:39:17 [wendy]
- , orange: i wrote a book on xml and sql. ought to read.
- 11:39:43 [wendy]
- roland concept-dervice characteristics should be?
- 11:39:48 [wendy]
- tg thought about vaguely.
- 11:40:06 [wendy]
- tg capabilities classes more appropriate than device
characteristidcs.
- 11:40:11 [wendy]
- tg could write OWL to write
- 11:40:25 [wendy]
- tg small screen is one example
- 11:40:40 [wendy]
- ===
- 11:44:20 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make team
- 11:44:20 [RRSAgent]
- I'm logging. I don't understand 'make team', wendy. Try /msg RRSAgent
help
- 11:44:27 [wendy]
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- 11:44:27 [RRSAgent]
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- 11:44:37 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, make log team
- 11:44:42 [wendy]
- zoinks, i'm tired...
- 14:56:23 [RRSAgent]
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- 14:56:48 [wendy]
- rhys;
- 14:57:01 [wendy]
- wrote down additional thoughts
- 14:57:09 [wendy]
- looked at metadata that might not be in the content space
- 14:57:36 [wendy]
- way to classify thousands of devices
- 14:57:44 [wendy]
- a rough notion of how look on diff devices
- 14:58:02 [wendy]
- what would it mean to have content-side metadata that said "what was
the author thinking about this class of devices when built this..."
- 14:58:21 [wendy]
- debated that probably not just devices, may need to cover something
to do with user modeling
- 14:58:26 [wendy]
- what is the user likely to do with this stuff
- 14:58:33 [wendy]
- a topic for diwg to discuss
- 14:58:59 [wendy]
- what you like if you like large text, here's for bigger text
- 14:59:04 [wendy]
- work across devices and user profiles
- 14:59:10 [wendy]
- [stereotypes?]
- 14:59:20 [wendy]
- role seemed to be key thing
- 14:59:45 [wendy]
- clearly a need to say, "it has a role that i can't express alone in
xhtml"
- 15:00:11 [wendy]
- also talked about tasks. concluded that task, an achievement th euser
makes on the site, could also be a role
- 15:00:19 [wendy]
- roles could span multiple pages, not just defined in one page
- 15:01:01 [wendy]
- adaptation rules - what need to say?
- 15:01:20 [wendy]
- image degredation - scaling down? clipping? diff kind of data
(text?)
- 15:01:27 [wendy]
- this at principles level: general ways to do transformation
- 15:01:43 [wendy]
- also general principels for metadata itself
- 15:02:55 [wendy]
- scalable, maintain it further downstream than you think (perhaps not
metadata itself, but references to it), standards-based, if extend - do
in a findable way
- 15:03:05 [wendy]
- took some of the things we came up with yesterday, identified some as
key