13:59:49 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 13:59:55 rrsagent, make logs world 14:00:23 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started 14:00:32 +Jenae_Andershonis 14:00:40 +??P14 14:01:31 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 14:01:36 +Michael_Cooper 14:01:47 zakim, ??P14 is Ken_Kipness 14:01:47 +Ken_Kipness; got it 14:02:14 bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag 14:02:26 +Don_Evans 14:02:29 +??P25 14:02:35 zakim, ??P25 is Ben 14:02:35 +Ben; got it 14:02:43 +Wendy 14:02:59 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 14:02:59 zakim, drop wendy 14:02:59 Wendy is being disconnected 14:03:00 -Wendy 14:03:18 +??P21 14:03:20 ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag 14:03:34 zakim, ??P21 is Chris_Ridpath 14:03:34 +Chris_Ridpath; got it 14:03:40 +Wendy 14:03:49 +Becky_Gibson 14:03:50 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:03:50 On the phone I see Jenae_Andershonis, Ken_Kipness, Michael_Cooper, Don_Evans, Ben, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson 14:05:13 zakim, who's making noise? 14:05:23 wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (10%), Chris_Ridpath (19%), Becky_Gibson (30%) 14:05:29 zakim, I am Becky_Gibson 14:05:29 ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson 14:05:39 zakim, mute Chris 14:05:39 Chris_Ridpath should now be muted 14:05:47 zakim, unmute Chris 14:05:47 Chris_Ridpath should no longer be muted 14:06:19 zakim, who's making noise? 14:06:29 wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jenae_Andershonis (4%), Ken_Kipness (37%), Michael_Cooper (28%), Chris_Ridpath (9%) 14:06:38 zakim, drop Ken 14:06:38 Ken_Kipness is being disconnected 14:06:39 -Ken_Kipness 14:07:06 +??P14 14:07:16 zakim, ??P14 is Ken_Kipness 14:07:16 +Ken_Kipness; got it 14:08:13 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0763.html 14:08:35 policies for contributions of test cases: http://www.w3.org/2004/06/29-testcases.html 14:27:36 QA Handbook re acquiring test suite: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-qa-handbook-20040830/#Acquire 14:27:47 Questions: 14:28:03 Need to come up with a formal set of steps to transfer test suite 14:28:16 Do we need to follow the QA process? 14:28:55 How will test suite be maintained after transfer? 14:29:37 Does test suite even have to be on W3C site? 14:29:51 Partial Answers: 14:30:04 We probably still should follow QA process to make sure we don't miss things 14:30:14 Give editor access to Chris et al to maintain tests after transfer 14:30:26 It would be good for tests to be on W3C site 14:31:30 hey michael, i can take over minutes - just wanted to get that email out. 14:31:35 ok 14:32:01 cr agreeing on tests. have posted 6 to the list. there hasn't been much discussion, but it closely follows the techniques document. 14:32:11 testsuite for ALT: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0549.html 14:32:11 cr review these 6 tests and determine if accessible? 14:33:03 http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=1&lang=eng&wcag=true - no disagreement 14:33:15 http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=3&lang=eng&wcag=true 14:33:22 "should" thus it is an optional test 14:33:29 idea is that alt-text is as short as possible 14:33:48 bc it is not a must. as long as it is not required 14:33:58 mc "must vs should" "short vs defining short" 14:34:35 wac if alt-text gets too long, use a description 14:34:46 cr if you have alt-text longer than 100 characters, then look at it. 14:35:30 bc want authors to evaluate appropriateness of alt-text. 14:35:42 mc general statement vs when using an automated tool 14:36:31 cr if we tell them it has to be short, we need to give them a limit. 14:38:36 http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=178&lang=eng&wcag=true - "meaningful" how do we define? 14:40:50 mc can pass all the tests, but get to final one "meaningful" and could not pass 14:41:18 cr think the meaningful test is most likely to get dumped because can't describe that well 14:41:22 mc unless define a procedure 14:42:41 Ask yourself, "Why is it there? What does it illustrate or add to the text?" from http://www.w3.org/2000/08/nba-manual/Overview.html 14:43:14 bg "company logo" vs "ibm logo" 14:43:17 mc vs "ibm" 14:45:58 continued discussion about "meaningful" 14:46:19 mc "right pointing arrow" vs "go to next page" 14:46:37 bc that gets back to success criteria 14:48:25 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#text-equiv 14:48:28 1. For all non-text content that is functional, such as graphical links or buttons, text-alternatives identify the purpose or function of the non-text content. [I] 14:48:28 2. For all non-text content that is used to convey information, text-alternatives convey the same information. [I] 14:48:28 3. For non-text content that is intended to create a specific sensory experience, such as music or visual art, text-alternatives identify and describe the non-text content. [I] 14:48:29 4. For multimedia and time-dependent interactive content, text-alternatives identify the content and media alternatives are provided as described in guideline 1.2. [I] 14:48:32 5. Non-text content that does not provide information, functionality, sensory experience and is neither multimedia nor time-dependent interactive content, is marked such that it can be ignored by assistive technology. [I] 14:48:35 6. Any text-alternatives provided are explicitly associated with non-text content. [I] 14:48:45 have a test for each one or are they within the "meaningful" test? 14:49:08 cr 20 questions for each image, ignore them all? 14:49:30 bc a process needed to identify the different types of images (when it conveys information vs when it provides function). 14:49:54 mc split up techniques as well 14:50:00 (since split SC) 14:50:09 bc or an example for each 14:51:08 cr #5 - that's covered by http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowCheck?check=16&lang=eng&wcag=true 14:51:42 cr if using image as link, identify link target - could add a test (if don't already have one in anchors) 14:51:59 bc perhaps just add a few more tests...replace "meaningful" with "functional images" or something 14:52:13 cr have to make sure the tests cover the success criteria completely 14:52:21 ja the end-to-ends can help with that 14:52:54 -Jenae_Andershonis 14:53:46 action: chris review success criteria and map to tests 14:53:57 mc what do about "alt-text should be short"? 14:54:18 bc as long as have "should" it is not required. it's part of the toolbox. but it won't apply in every case. 14:54:38 cr and we're responsible for identifying ambiguous terms. 14:54:46 cr defining 14:55:33 mc w/caveat that it is should not a must, more of a test of the guidelines 14:57:23 wac get review 14:57:41 wac need to link to test suite somehow. editorial note on this test. 14:59:04 http://www.w3.org/QA/TheMatrix 15:01:02 wac chunk techniques like did with general? 15:01:16 wac resources section links to related tests? 15:01:35 mc a view (TOC) all of the test files for given technique are collected together 15:01:50 mc a given test file may apply to multiple techniques, the TOC could point to some test files more than once. 15:01:56 Draft view of tests mapped to techniques: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowGuide?name=wcag-2-0-html-techs.xml&lang=eng 15:03:31 cr note that this is from an older version of the techniques 15:04:16 wac similar model to links from SC to general - single link for each technique that would link to TOC of tests for that technique 15:05:11 wac publish as WG note or in WCAG WG space? 15:05:17 mc have same status as techniques 15:05:21 cr checklists should be the same too 15:08:14 wac need to find a way to publish one piece at a time instead of everything at once, although b/c of the way we generate links between things can't update one chunk at a time. 15:08:46 mc perhaps for november draft, live in WG space, but eventually should live at same level as other documents 15:11:25 action: michael for 8 oct html techs link from alt-text technique to 1st of the alt-text tests 15:13:02 action 2 = michael for 8 oct html techs link from alt-text technique to test suite (whehter it be 1st test or TOC of some sort - work with Chris) 15:18:06 submitting techniques 15:18:38 bg has 4 techniques for adding labels 15:21:12 make bulleted list for user agent issues for 8 oct drafts but flesh out dtd for support for the 3 nov draft 15:22:33 bg diff alternatives: use php to generate on the fly if don't have javascript 15:22:40 (replaces heading w/images) 15:23:03 bc breaks jaws ability to do header navigation 15:23:18 bg put background image on the header? 15:23:53 bc can get header in list, but as reading document it doesn't see them as headings (can't skip to using 'h') 15:24:27 action: becky rework example (replace div with header) 15:25:06 mc agreed to put thse techniques in 15:25:19 wac with disclaimers 15:25:40 bg check with very large fonts 15:27:23 bg reference source 15:28:39 bg send info back to developer, perhaps he can include additional info on his blog 15:29:02 HTMl techniques proposals on the list 15:31:17 mc if decide that script only used accessibly, drop that technique (for fallback). keep that technique (for fallback) until know decision about scripting. 15:31:47 new drafts next friday 15:31:51 including change logs 15:33:40 next week: checklists, transferring test suites into w3c space, public drafts on friday, and then the dublin meetings 15:34:10 -Chris_Ridpath 15:35:55 action: wendy make visible (member-space?) summary of DIWG/WCAG WG and send to Becky 15:36:26 -Becky_Gibson 15:36:27 -Ben 15:36:31 -Don_Evans 15:36:32 -Ken_Kipness 15:36:33 -Wendy 16:02:02 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 16:02:04 bcaldwell has left #wai-wcag 16:02:10 zakim, bye 16:02:10 leaving. As of this point the attendees were Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ken_Kipness, Don_Evans, Ben, Wendy, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson 16:02:10 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 16:02:15 RRSAgent, make log world 16:02:22 RRSAgent, bye 16:02:22 I see 4 open action items: 16:02:22 ACTION: chris review success criteria and map to tests [1] 16:02:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T14-53-46 16:02:22 ACTION: michael for 8 oct html techs link from alt-text technique to test suite (whehter it be 1st test or TOC of some sort - work with Chris) [2] 16:02:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T15-11-25 16:02:22 ACTION: becky rework example (replace div with header) [3] 16:02:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T15-24-27 16:02:22 ACTION: wendy make visible (member-space?) summary of DIWG/WCAG WG and send to Becky [4] 16:02:22 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/29-wai-wcag-irc#T15-35-55 21:06:25 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 21:06:36 programmatic object - sequence, selection, and iteration 21:06:41 ncludes: scripting, java, flash w/action script 21:06:45 "when we talk about scripts, are we talking about script web content or the result that is web content? you don't see script on the screen, you see an ojbect, or an image as a result. " 21:07:26 mc programmatic object "action of doing something" issues of fallback are a technology-support issue 21:07:37 bc basic requirement about labeling? 21:08:08 bc distinction between what a prog. object/script does (so can choose to change UA or identify it before something happens) vs it having a text alternative 21:08:52 mc dependson what the object does. applet: label it, like an image. however, are web sites that have html framework that loads flash. 21:09:32 mc even need to label it (the flash site)? w/flash - if it *is* the site, what would be the label? 21:09:52 bc current user agents don't say anything. needs a mechanisms that the site is encoded in flash. 21:10:23 mc the fact that flash is programmatic is not why you have to do it, it's the lack of support 21:11:25 mc require text for images in cases where text is not supported 21:11:55 bc screen readers say "graphic or image" when encounter regardless of alt -text 21:12:05 bc they don't say "here's an object" or identify other types of content. 21:13:30 bc the user has to make a choice like disabling javascript or plug-ins in order to search for alternatives 21:13:40 bc applies across all the types at one time 21:13:58 mc images handled separately from javascript 21:14:12 mc renders image also provide alternative. scripting is one or the other. 21:14:22 bc alternatives often not options until disable something else 21:14:36 mc no reason an asst tech couldn't grab info from dom 21:16:48 mc write in terms of how things should be vs how things are 21:17:48 mc more likely to be future-proof 21:17:54 gz yes 21:18:04 bc can live with it, but need to spend energy hammering on UAs 21:20:21 mc in guideline level wouldn't have anything that speaksto programmatic objects (per se), unless if have guidelines abouthow to make them accessible (e.g., keyboard access), however wouldn't say "provide fallbacks" do that at technology-specific level depending on support 21:20:35 mc determine if we should recommend fallbacks for given technology and how 21:22:48 non-text content: 1.1 (generally), specific non-text content - multimedia (1.2) and programmatic objects (4.1/4.2) either collapse or be more specific. 21:22:52 is 1.1 primarily about images? 21:24:07 can we get rid of the term non-text content? 21:24:21 instead use images, multimedia, and programmatic objects (or prog funcationality?) 21:24:34 lump progr. objects into non-text content with function 21:24:45 equivalent handled under 4.2 21:25:10 is text as ultimate fallback always the right answer? 21:25:16 view from a different perspective. 21:25:59 there are different media types people encounter: structured text, static images, multimedia, audio-only, video-only, dynamic interactions (programmatic objects) 21:26:08 need guidelines related to each one 21:26:33 then we're not thinking text or non-text, thinking about media types 21:27:14 what about text/xml that could end up either in structured text or an image (if converted to svg) 21:28:09 dealing with text in raster image different from svg 21:28:58 principle: make text scalable, for raster images do x, for svg do y 21:29:16 just call it data? depends on the transformation process 21:29:56 mathml explicitly provides a visual version and a logical version, supposedly interchangable 21:31:29 at the moment, svg is not widely supported, and therefore needs text equivalent - not b/c the text is not there but b/c of lack of support 21:32:10 assuming the author will have to interact w/supporting tech to figure out what it is 21:33:01 still have to identify what it is (a chart, a decoration, etc.) 21:33:56 similar argument to identifying contents of data table 21:35:35 (and structured relationships within ) 21:37:11 question of baseline. if cna't define it, never know what tech someone will use. 21:37:24 will always label images, why are other technologies treated differently? 21:37:47 maybe someday... 20 years or so? :) 21:38:03 Gez has joined #wai-wcag 21:39:34 even for images, matter of technology support. 21:41:13 mc no matter what unsupported technology, provide a label regardless of the media type. if is supported, don't need a label. 21:41:26 currently, set is the same. 21:41:31 however, how do you define supported? 21:57:25 going through JIS to see how they work it out. General principles are good. 21:58:58 can we throw baseline over the wall to policy? 21:59:46 like to say "declare baseline" then give info about reasonable baseline given today's technology. 22:01:14 is scripting its own thing? anything else like it 22:01:16 ? 22:01:58 current inaccessible uses of javascript: menus 22:03:06 client-side validation 22:03:32 security, time, cost - not accessibility issue. 22:03:57 inserting content 22:04:07 javascript calculators (price calculators) 22:04:15 could change content at a rate someone can't keep up with 22:04:29 accessibilit of the function not of javascript support for the function 22:04:40 separate accessibility issues if sripting is not supported 22:04:50 is tehre a work around? 22:04:59 where does javascript create accessibility issue? 22:22:45 -Gez_Lemon 22:28:19 -Michael_Cooper 22:28:21 -Ben 22:28:26 -Wendy 22:28:27 Team_(wai-wcag)21:00Z has ended 22:28:28 Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Ben, Wendy, Gez_Lemon 22:50:09 zakim, bye 22:50:09 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 22:50:12 RRSAgent, bye 22:50:12 I see no action items