IRC log of dawg on 2004-09-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:26:27 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #dawg

14:26:33 [Zakim]

+DanC

14:26:36 [Zakim]

+??P21

14:27:01 [howardk]

howardk has joined #dawg

14:27:09 [Zakim]

+??P25

14:27:12 [AndyS]

zakin, ??P25 is AndyS

14:27:18 [howardk]

morning all

14:27:20 [AndyS]

zakim, ??P25 is AndyS

14:27:20 [Zakim]

+AndyS; got it

14:28:13 [AndyS]

zakim, please dial ericP-617

14:28:13 [Zakim]

ok, AndyS; the call is being made

14:28:14 [Zakim]

+EricP

14:28:40 [Zakim]

+HowardK

14:28:58 [Yoshio]

Good evening

14:29:39 [SimonR]

DanC: Possibly trouble -- I can't seem to reach Zakim. You might have to find a backup backup scribe.

14:29:48 [DanC]

roger

14:29:58 [Zakim]

+??P28

14:30:00 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:30:00 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Yoshio

14:30:08 [SteveH]

Zakim, +??P28 is SteveH

14:30:08 [Zakim]

sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named '+??P28'

14:30:10 [Yoshio]

NO!

14:30:18 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:30:18 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark

14:30:25 [DanC]

Zakim, pick a scribe

14:30:25 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DaveB

14:30:27 [SteveH]

Zakim, ??P28 is SteveH

14:30:27 [Zakim]

+SteveH; got it

14:31:04 [Zakim]

+PatH

14:31:06 [DanC]

DanC has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access 28 Sep. chair: DanC; scribe: DaveB

14:31:13 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:31:13 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review record and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0539.html" taken up [from DanC]

14:31:48 [Zakim]

+[ASemantics]

14:31:54 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

14:31:54 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Yoshio, DaveB, Kendall_Clark, DanC, HiroyuiS, AndyS, EricP, HowardK, SteveH, PatH, [ASemantics]

14:31:57 [DaveB]

did JanneS volunteer scribing for next mtg?

14:32:04 [DaveB]

yes

14:32:08 [patH]

patH has joined #dawg

14:32:09 [DaveB]

roll call

14:32:29 [DaveB]

as above oOn the phone, correct spelling

14:32:33 [Yoshio]

HiroyukiS

14:32:41 [DaveB]

regrets tomA, JanneS

14:32:56 [DaveB]

f2f3 meeting record

14:33:18 [DaveB]

DanC - copy of AndyS live editing from f2f3 not avail, is that OK?

14:34:07 [DaveB]

AndyS to send notes to email, or point at them if already sent

14:34:36 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf3-brs + ammendment to come

14:34:43 [DanC]

RESOLVED

14:35:00 [DaveB]

DONM

14:35:07 [DaveB]

5 Oct, EricP to chair

14:35:19 [DaveB]

JanneS scribe

14:35:47 [Yoshio]

possible regrets (moving next day)

14:35:51 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:35:51 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Introduction and abstract (name, marketing)" taken up [from DanC]

14:36:11 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35463/DAWG-QL-name/results

14:37:22 [Zakim]

+??P30

14:37:33 [Yoshio]

yes

14:37:45 [SimonR]

(Yay, I got through on the phone!)

14:38:06 [DaveB]

Zakim, ??P30 is SimonR

14:38:06 [Zakim]

+SimonR; got it

14:38:18 [DaveB]

DanC - propose to edit in SPARQL for now, but not close the issue

14:38:56 [DaveB]

DaveB - and remove the other choices I hope

14:39:13 [DaveB]

ACTION AndyS change name to SPARQL, keeping issue open in rq23

14:39:16 [DanC]

editor is inclined to accept the feedback in the direction of SPARQL

14:39:43 [DaveB]

KendallC - words for abstract

14:39:51 [DaveB]

that action DONE

14:40:14 [DanC]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0557.html

14:40:15 [Zakim]

+??P32

14:40:27 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P32 in JosD

14:40:27 [Zakim]

I don't understand '??P32 in JosD', DanC

14:40:45 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:40:45 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "issue: SOURCE" taken up [from DanC]

14:40:58 [JosD]

JosD has joined #dawg

14:41:49 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

14:42:35 [Zakim]

+Kendall_Clark

14:43:05 [DaveB]

re section9 of rq23

14:43:16 [DaveB]

editors inclined to publish as is

14:43:29 [DanC]

ACTION DaveB: Update the source section 9, add

14:43:29 [DanC]

more formal links, update the examples, try to think about extra

14:43:29 [DanC]

constraints as EricP proposed (SOURCE ?s and ?s onlin in SELECT). Look

14:43:29 [DanC]

at various ppl's source test cases.

14:44:35 [DanC]

ACTION SteveH: test cases (10 or so) re: current SOURCE design. in progress

14:44:44 [DanC]

ACTION AlbertoR: real test cases re: current SOURCE design. in progress

14:44:55 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

14:44:55 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

14:45:10 [Yoshio]

* Yoshio ducked

14:45:20 [AndyS]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0541.html

14:45:40 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

14:45:40 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

14:45:49 [DanC]

Andy's ACTION done http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0541.html

14:45:54 [DaveB]

re 0541 helps JosD to distinguish 2 designs

14:46:58 [DaveB]

AndyS re 0541

14:47:11 [DaveB]

Q2 (2a) has 2 row results

14:47:52 [DaveB]

in q2b there is no implicit distinct, no request for ?src, so get 1 result

14:48:33 [Yoshio]

Hmm, not feel natural with two lines

14:50:38 [ericP]

defns only http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/defns.html

14:52:45 [DaveB]

discussion of duplicates in results, costs

14:52:58 [DaveB]

and refernece to Query Solution that isn't clear if it's a set of (set of bindings)

14:53:36 [DaveB]

PatH suggests being agnositic on duplicates, ref to systems that do resulting counting

14:54:46 [DaveB]

distinct will always give 1 right answer

14:54:51 [DaveB]

DISTINCT not in syntax yet

14:55:28 [kendall]

i've been thinking that limit might be a protocol bit

14:55:34 [Yoshio]

why so minmalistic? it would be hard to use with dupicates... at least unnatural...

14:56:17 [ericP]

yoshio, it has a cost on streaming

14:56:26 [AlbertoR]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0549.html

14:56:32 [AndyS]

Can be useful to see that "Andy" occurs twice when projecting out in SELECT

14:56:43 [DanC]

alberto, tests based on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0327.html ?

14:56:50 [ericP]

yoshio, you end up with all of your results in a hash table that is consulted before each new tuple gets streamed

14:57:00 [AndyS]

It also costs in terms of memory (need to keep track of previous things returned)

14:57:41 [Yoshio]

mmm, things are more complicated than I thought... but...

14:57:44 [SimonR]

ericP: Actually, in order for us to do streaming joins we have to make sure our intermediate results have a sort ordering. So a side-effect of streaming for us is that distinct is actually fairly easy....

14:58:16 [DaveB]

continue alberto's action, ref to 0327

14:58:32 [Yoshio]

how about allowing duplicates only when streaming

14:59:31 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

14:59:31 [Zakim]

agendum 4. "Toward 1st spec WD" taken up [from DanC]

15:00:11 [DaveB]

action dirk continued

15:00:50 [SteveH]

dont qnames have to have a :?

15:00:57 [DaveB]

action AndyS DONE

15:01:25 [DaveB]

SteveH: yeah. but in some n3's it is optional

15:02:07 [SteveH]

DaveB, how is that qualified?

15:02:20 [SteveH]

it would just be a URI wouldn't it?

15:02:48 [DaveB]

AndyS hoping for draft by 1 Oct/Friday

15:02:52 [DaveB]

hopeing?

15:03:15 [AndyS]

yes - I *think* we can could drop the ?/$ but hard for some lexers (I'm told)

15:03:39 [DaveB]

DaveB asks for 2 working days

15:04:01 [AlbertoR]

AndyS: talked with DW right now (not on IRC either) - he will make his action later when he has time - then we can discuss more about ? vs. $

15:04:12 [kendall]

fwiw, i find queries w/out var markers harder to read than ones with var markers.

15:04:15 [AndyS]

And it looks all the same (qnames / variables)

15:04:35 [DaveB]

ACTION HowardK: review updated spec (appearing 1 Oct) for 5th Oct

15:04:44 [SteveH]

I do think the ?'s help visually, but I see Alberto's concerns

15:05:01 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:05:01 [Zakim]

agendum 5. "Web Service Constraints etc." taken up [from DanC]

15:05:11 [DaveB]

(other review actions SteveH, DaveB continued)

15:05:31 [DaveB]

KendallC action DONE

15:05:43 [DaveB]

in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0553.html

15:05:56 [Yoshio]

* re: ? and $ what has become of the problem when bookmarking?

15:06:19 [DaveB]

Yoshio: it makes little difference, you have to URI escape lots of characters anyway, for safety

15:06:48 [Yoshio]

DaveB: I see

15:06:52 [DaveB]

DanC - would be nice to have a UC re rdf query and web service constraints

15:07:34 [DaveB]

ACTION EricP: draft UC on overlap between RDF query and web service constraints

15:07:47 [DaveB]

... re WS-Policy

15:08:10 [DaveB]

also see OWL-S, lots of other semantic web services work

15:08:47 [DaveB]

possibly for a new UC draft 5th Oct

15:08:50 [DaveB]

(UC&R)

15:09:09 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:09:09 [Zakim]

agendum 6. "Toward updated Use Cases & Requirements WD" taken up [from DanC]

15:09:39 [AlbertoR]

Yoshio: no is more about client side DBC API having problems dealing with '?' e.g. queries run through M$ Excel using an ODBC - you need wierd escaping of ? sings - Dirk will (hopefully) email more abou this later

15:09:46 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases $Revision: 1.136 $ of $Date: 2004/08/31 13:49:06 $

15:09:54 [DaveB]

KendallC has UC to add identity management, DI, above query/WS one, (danbri one)

15:09:59 [DaveB]

action continued

15:10:18 [DaveB]

SteveH continued

15:11:15 [DaveB]

ACTION PatH: Review UC&R draft appearing around Oct1, for Oct5 telcon

15:12:26 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:12:26 [Zakim]

agendum 7. "ftf meeting schedule" taken up [from DanC]

15:13:01 [DaveB]

SteveH can host, haven't written the email

15:13:17 [DaveB]

southampton offers to host

15:13:18 [DaveB]

action done

15:13:22 [ericP]

if we're going to be cold, let's go all the way

15:13:34 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

15:13:34 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Yoshio, DaveB, DanC, HiroyuiS, AndyS, EricP, HowardK, SteveH, PatH, [ASemantics], SimonR, ??P32, Kendall_Clark

15:13:49 [Yoshio]

Cool : )

15:14:09 [DaveB]

Yoshio pref Helsinki

15:14:30 [DaveB]

DaveB Southampton, then WDC

15:14:33 [DaveB]

DanC no pref

15:14:51 [DaveB]

Hiroyuki pref Helsinki

15:15:01 [DaveB]

AndyS Southampton, Helsink, WDC that order

15:15:03 [Yoshio]

* can we see aurora there?

15:15:18 [DaveB]

EricP Helsinki, Southampton, WDC (but pref Helsinki!)

15:15:27 [DaveB]

HowardK WDC (if !Bush) else Helsinki

15:15:45 [DaveB]

SteveH Southampton Helsinki WDC

15:15:55 [DaveB]

PatH WDC Southampton Helsinki

15:16:03 [DaveB]

Alberto Helsinki Southampton

15:16:21 [DaveB]

SimonR WDC or others no pref

15:16:26 [DaveB]

Kendall Helsinki

15:16:31 [DanC]

Zakim, ??P32 is JosD

15:16:31 [Zakim]

+JosD; got it

15:16:32 [DaveB]

JosD WDC

15:17:16 [DaveB]

Helsinki would be regrets - JosD, PatH

15:17:53 [ericP]

it should be easy to eliminate

15:18:13 [AndyS]

Richard Branson is arranging it.

15:18:19 [kendall]

heh

15:19:08 [DanC]

January 2005

15:19:08 [DanC]

Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa

15:19:09 [DanC]

1

15:19:11 [DanC]

2 3 4 5 6 7 8

15:19:13 [DanC]

9 10 11 12 13 14 15

15:19:15 [DanC]

16 17 18 19 20 21 22

15:19:17 [DanC]

23 24 25 26 27 28 29

15:19:19 [DanC]

30 31

15:21:19 [DaveB]

PROPOSED: 19-20 January 2005 Espo, Finland hosted by Profium

15:21:41 [DaveB]

RESOLVED F2F4 above

15:21:43 [kendall]

yay vodka!

15:21:56 [ericP]

and saunas

15:21:58 [AlbertoR]

sauna too :)

15:22:13 [kendall]

and birch-leaved self-flagellation ^H^H^H^H oops :>

15:22:13 [ericP]

and hacheting holes in the ice so we can swim

15:24:24 [kendall]

wow

15:24:34 [DanC]

28 February - 4 March 2005

15:24:34 [DanC]

W3C Technical plenary (per W3C member events calendar)

15:24:47 [DaveB]

ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March 28Feb-4Mar (2 days)

15:25:04 [DaveB]

some pref to Mon/Tue for f2f5

15:25:23 [kendall]

+1

15:25:40 [DanC]

Zakim, close this agendum

15:25:40 [Zakim]

agendum 7 closed

15:25:41 [Zakim]

I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is

15:25:42 [Zakim]

8. Issues [from DanC]

15:25:51 [AndyS]

+1 to Mon/Tues

15:25:52 [DanC]

agenda?

15:26:28 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:26:28 [Zakim]

agendum 8. "Issues" taken up [from DanC]

15:27:16 [DaveB]

all item 8 actions state DONE/not done as in agenda

15:27:19 [DanC]

Zakim, next agendum

15:27:19 [Zakim]

agendum 8 was just opened, DanC

15:27:35 [DaveB]

item 9

15:27:48 [DaveB]

kendallC walking tour action continued

15:27:59 [DaveB]

kendallC deadline is F2F4

15:28:18 [DaveB]

KendallC CC interface, attempt this week or next. continued

15:28:26 [DaveB]

KendallC xml format - done

15:28:38 [DaveB]

in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0554.html

15:28:50 [DaveB]

DaveB format done

15:28:59 [DaveB]

in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0556.html

15:29:07 [DaveB]

EricP action done

15:29:36 [DaveB]

KendalLC - working on protocol doc not complete yet

15:31:19 [ericP]

I'm really divided on the value of being validated by XML-Schema

15:31:25 [ericP]

or DTD

15:32:09 [AlbertoR]

q?

15:32:13 [AlbertoR]

q+

15:32:28 [ericP]

q+ to ask if dave tried to shorhorm either into an RDF-compatible form

15:33:12 [DanC]

ack AlbertoR

15:33:19 [AndyS]

q+

15:33:30 [kendall]

q+ to ask about sparql var names fitting into xml names

15:33:35 [DaveB]

more explanation needd - xslt, xpath - add an example

15:34:58 [DaveB]

bnodes in results

15:35:02 [DaveB]

issues with that

15:35:09 [kendall]

q+ to ask what <hpage></hpage> means

15:35:18 [DaveB]

PatH - does it allow future queries use that term?

15:35:44 [DanC]

ack ericp

15:35:44 [Zakim]

ericP, you wanted to ask if dave tried to shorhorm either into an RDF-compatible form

15:35:52 [SteveH]

kendall, I think <foo/> means foo=NULL

15:36:12 [DaveB]

yeah, I didn't actually form the data & queries, sorry

15:36:14 [kendall]

yeah

15:36:17 [DanC]

then how to encode foo="", steveH?

15:36:21 [DaveB]

I needed something with datatypes

15:36:24 [SimonR]

SteveH: How do you represent an empty plain literal, then?

15:36:24 [kendall]

not sure what i think about that

15:36:31 [AlbertoR]

DanC - right

15:36:47 [SteveH]

DanC, agreed, I was guessing, no saying I liked it

15:36:49 [kendall]

example with xml literal would be good, IMO

15:37:19 [DaveB]

ah yeah; it'll be horribly entity encoded stuff

15:37:36 [kendall]

yep, but be good to show it, fwiw

15:37:46 [AlbertoR]

DaveB syntax is cool - much flatter than orginal - just wanna be sure it has got all feature we need

15:38:03 [SteveH]

I like result1.xml, modulo NULL too

15:38:36 [DanC]

ack andys

15:39:55 [DanC]

ack kendall

15:39:55 [Zakim]

kendall, you wanted to ask about sparql var names fitting into xml names and to ask what <hpage></hpage> means

15:40:31 [DaveB]

explict it has no value, in xml syntax

15:40:43 [DaveB]

... is ok says AndyS

15:41:52 [DaveB]

constraining variable names to fit in xml

15:42:01 [DaveB]

... matching xml name production or subset

15:42:15 [DaveB]

AndyS in grammar, variable names are XML NCName

15:43:06 [AndyS]

What about XML literals with same tag name?

15:43:10 [DaveB]

PatH suggests introducing 'var ?x'

15:43:19 [DaveB]

er, var x. then withdraws

15:43:27 [DanC]

I think he meant <var name="...">..</var>

15:44:17 [ericP]

q?

15:44:37 [DaveB]

adv to schema with closed content model

15:44:49 [DanC]

q+

15:44:52 [DaveB]

could be in editing with schemas

15:45:02 [DaveB]

Alberto - or generating records

15:45:03 [AndyS]

q+ to ask what we said about XMLliterals

15:45:10 [kendall]

yes, easier to write this stuff by hand in smart xml editors w/ a schema

15:45:19 [kendall]

but i don't much much stock in that use case

15:45:38 [DanC]

ack danc

15:46:29 [DanC]

ack andy

15:46:29 [Zakim]

AndyS, you wanted to ask what we said about XMLliterals

15:46:30 [DaveB]

hmm, could have <name xsi:type="xsd:anyURI">...</name>

15:47:07 [DanC]

hmm... xpath expression that accidently matches...

15:47:19 [AlbertoR]

q+

15:47:24 [DaveB]

worst case could be getting back a query in the result

15:47:39 [DaveB]

suggestion to use <[!CDATA, or whatever the syntax is

15:48:00 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:48:00 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:48:28 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:48:28 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:49:18 [kendall]

zakim, mute me

15:49:18 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should now be muted

15:50:28 [kendall]

zakim, unmute me

15:50:28 [Zakim]

Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted

15:50:44 [DaveB]

two results formats - var bindings, rdf graphs

15:50:52 [DaveB]

the latter we have rdf/xml as rec format, also ntriples,...

15:51:01 [AndyS]

+1 to returning RDF graphs as well as "XML for XML tools"

15:51:19 [DaveB]

re the protocol design, KendallC has considered this two result formats.

15:51:33 [DaveB]

DanC asks for examples of these cases

15:52:38 [DaveB]

possibility of SELECT returning var binidngs (xml) and also returning a subgraph

15:52:48 [DaveB]

... in rdf/xml or whatever

15:54:11 [DaveB]

DanC: the rdf graph result for variable bindings might either look like a) the query graph or b) an encoding of the variable bindings, like the test resutl format

15:54:18 [kendall]

thx

15:55:00 [DaveB]

CONSTRUCT in the current doc present but not up-to-date linked with earlier sections

15:55:13 [DaveB]

KendallC - third kind is the ASK result boolean

15:55:14 [DanC]

(I think we're already pretty high-risk, so I encourage you to go for it, AndyS)

15:55:36 [AndyS]

:-)

15:55:41 [AlbertoR]

q- I will take question about result1.xml on list later

15:55:49 [AlbertoR]

q-

15:56:16 [DaveB]

DaveB - need a format for ASK result without a protocol

15:56:38 [DanC]

regrets next week from JosD

15:56:46 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

15:56:51 [Zakim]

-DaveB

15:56:53 [Zakim]

-[ASemantics]

15:56:54 [Zakim]

-PatH

15:56:55 [Zakim]

-JosD

15:56:58 [Yoshio]

bye

15:57:00 [Zakim]

-SimonR

15:57:01 [Zakim]

-SteveH

15:57:03 [Zakim]

-DanC

15:57:04 [Zakim]

-HiroyuiS

15:57:05 [Zakim]

-Kendall_Clark

15:57:06 [Zakim]

-HowardK

15:57:07 [Zakim]

-Yoshio

15:57:24 [AlbertoR]

AlbertoR has left #dawg

15:57:35 [HiroyukiS]

bye

15:57:40 [DanC]

hm.... ASK result format: <aye/> vs. <nay/>. 1/2 ;-)

15:58:20 [DaveB]

:)

15:58:33 [AndyS]

+1 (=true)

15:58:43 [DaveB]

how about +1, -1 or 0 (dunno)

15:59:27 [DaveB]

IIRC OWL tests had a single char answer for something

16:07:03 [DanC]

Zakim, who is on the phone?

16:07:03 [Zakim]

On the phone I see AndyS, EricP

16:07:15 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2004/09/28-dawg-irc#T16-07-03-1

16:14:59 [Zakim]

-AndyS

16:15:00 [Zakim]

-EricP

16:15:01 [Zakim]

SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended

16:15:02 [Zakim]

Attendees were Yoshio, DaveB, Kendall_Clark, DanC, AndyS, HiroyuiS, EricP, HowardK, SteveH, PatH, [ASemantics], SimonR, JosD