14:26:27 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
14:26:33 <Zakim> +DanC
14:26:36 <Zakim> +??P21
14:27:01 <howardk> howardk has joined #dawg
14:27:09 <Zakim> +??P25
14:27:12 <AndyS> zakin, ??P25 is AndyS
14:27:18 <howardk> morning all
14:27:20 <AndyS> zakim, ??P25 is AndyS
14:27:20 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
14:28:13 <AndyS> zakim, please dial ericP-617
14:28:13 <Zakim> ok, AndyS; the call is being made
14:28:14 <Zakim> +EricP
14:28:40 <Zakim> +HowardK
14:28:58 <Yoshio> Good evening
14:29:39 <SimonR> DanC: Possibly trouble -- I can't seem to reach Zakim.  You might have to find a backup backup scribe.
14:29:48 <DanC> roger
14:29:58 <Zakim> +??P28
14:30:00 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:30:00 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Yoshio
14:30:08 <SteveH> Zakim, +??P28 is SteveH
14:30:08 <Zakim> sorry, SteveH, I do not recognize a party named '+??P28'
14:30:10 <Yoshio> NO!
14:30:18 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:30:18 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Kendall_Clark
14:30:25 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
14:30:25 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose DaveB
14:30:27 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P28 is SteveH
14:30:27 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
14:31:04 <Zakim> +PatH
14:31:06 <DanC> DanC has changed the topic to: RDF Data Access 28 Sep. chair: DanC; scribe: DaveB
14:31:13 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:31:13 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review record and agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0539.html" taken up [from DanC]
14:31:48 <Zakim> +[ASemantics]
14:31:54 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:31:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yoshio, DaveB, Kendall_Clark, DanC, HiroyuiS, AndyS, EricP, HowardK, SteveH, PatH, [ASemantics]
14:31:57 <DaveB> did JanneS volunteer scribing for next mtg?
14:32:04 <DaveB> yes
14:32:08 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
14:32:09 <DaveB> roll call
14:32:29 <DaveB> as above oOn the phone, correct spelling
14:32:33 <Yoshio> HiroyukiS
14:32:41 <DaveB> regrets tomA, JanneS
14:32:56 <DaveB> f2f3 meeting record
14:33:18 <DaveB> DanC - copy of AndyS live editing from f2f3 not avail, is that OK?
14:34:07 <DaveB> AndyS to send notes to email, or point at them if already sent
14:34:36 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftf3-brs + ammendment to come
14:34:43 <DanC> RESOLVED
14:35:00 <DaveB> DONM
14:35:07 <DaveB> 5 Oct, EricP to chair
14:35:19 <DaveB> JanneS scribe
14:35:47 <Yoshio> possible regrets (moving next day)
14:35:51 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:35:51 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Introduction and abstract (name, marketing)" taken up [from DanC]
14:36:11 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35463/DAWG-QL-name/results
14:37:22 <Zakim> +??P30
14:37:33 <Yoshio> yes
14:37:45 <SimonR> (Yay, I got through on the phone!)
14:38:06 <DaveB> Zakim, ??P30 is SimonR
14:38:06 <Zakim> +SimonR; got it
14:38:18 <DaveB> DanC - propose to edit in SPARQL for now, but not close the issue
14:38:56 <DaveB> DaveB - and remove the other choices I hope
14:39:13 <DaveB> ACTION AndyS change name to SPARQL, keeping issue open in rq23
14:39:16 <DanC> editor is inclined to accept the feedback in the direction of SPARQL
14:39:43 <DaveB> KendallC - words for abstract
14:39:51 <DaveB> that action DONE
14:40:14 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0557.html
14:40:15 <Zakim> +??P32
14:40:27 <DanC> Zakim, ??P32 in JosD
14:40:27 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P32 in JosD', DanC
14:40:45 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:40:45 <Zakim> agendum 3. "issue: SOURCE" taken up [from DanC]
14:40:58 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
14:41:49 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
14:42:35 <Zakim> +Kendall_Clark
14:43:05 <DaveB> re section9 of rq23
14:43:16 <DaveB> editors inclined to publish as is
14:43:29 <DanC> ACTION DaveB: Update the source section 9, add
14:43:29 <DanC> more formal links, update the examples, try to think about extra
14:43:29 <DanC> constraints as EricP proposed (SOURCE ?s and ?s onlin in SELECT). Look
14:43:29 <DanC> at various ppl's source test cases.
14:44:35 <DanC> ACTION SteveH: test cases (10 or so) re: current SOURCE design. in progress
14:44:44 <DanC> ACTION AlbertoR: real test cases re: current SOURCE design. in progress
14:44:55 <kendall> zakim, mute me
14:44:55 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:45:10 <Yoshio> * Yoshio ducked
14:45:20 <AndyS> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0541.html
14:45:40 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
14:45:40 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:45:49 <DanC> Andy's ACTION done http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0541.html
14:45:54 <DaveB> re 0541 helps JosD to distinguish 2 designs
14:46:58 <DaveB> AndyS re 0541
14:47:11 <DaveB> Q2 (2a) has 2 row results
14:47:52 <DaveB> in q2b there is no implicit distinct, no request for ?src, so get 1 result
14:48:33 <Yoshio> Hmm, not feel natural with two lines
14:50:38 <ericP> defns only http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/rq23/defns.html
14:52:45 <DaveB> discussion of duplicates in results, costs
14:52:58 <DaveB> and refernece to Query Solution that isn't clear if it's a set of (set of bindings)
14:53:36 <DaveB> PatH suggests being agnositic on duplicates, ref to systems that do resulting counting
14:54:46 <DaveB> distinct will always give 1 right answer
14:54:51 <DaveB> DISTINCT not in syntax yet
14:55:28 <kendall> i've been thinking that limit might be a protocol bit
14:55:34 <Yoshio> why so minmalistic? it would be hard to use with dupicates... at least unnatural...
14:56:17 <ericP> yoshio, it has a cost on streaming
14:56:26 <AlbertoR> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0549.html
14:56:32 <AndyS> Can be useful to see that "Andy" occurs twice when projecting out in SELECT
14:56:43 <DanC> alberto, tests based on http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0327.html ?
14:56:50 <ericP> yoshio, you end up with all of your results in a hash table that is consulted before each new tuple gets streamed
14:57:00 <AndyS> It also costs in terms of memory (need to keep track of previous things returned)
14:57:41 <Yoshio> mmm, things are more complicated than I thought... but...
14:57:44 <SimonR> ericP: Actually, in order for us to do streaming joins we have to make sure our intermediate results have a sort ordering.  So a side-effect of streaming for us is that distinct is actually fairly easy....
14:58:16 <DaveB> continue alberto's action, ref to 0327 
14:58:32 <Yoshio> how about allowing duplicates only when streaming
14:59:31 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
14:59:31 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Toward 1st spec WD" taken up [from DanC]
15:00:11 <DaveB> action dirk continued
15:00:50 <SteveH> dont qnames have to have a :?
15:00:57 <DaveB> action AndyS DONE
15:01:25 <DaveB> SteveH: yeah.  but in some n3's it is optional
15:02:07 <SteveH> DaveB, how is that qualified?
15:02:20 <SteveH> it would just be a URI wouldn't it?
15:02:48 <DaveB> AndyS hoping for draft by 1 Oct/Friday
15:02:52 <DaveB> hopeing?
15:03:15 <AndyS> yes - I *think* we can could drop the ?/$ but hard for some lexers (I'm told)
15:03:39 <DaveB> DaveB asks for 2 working days
15:04:01 <AlbertoR> AndyS: talked with DW right now (not on IRC either) - he will make his action later when he has time - then we can discuss more about ? vs. $
15:04:12 <kendall> fwiw, i find queries w/out var markers harder to read than ones with var markers.
15:04:15 <AndyS> And it looks all the same (qnames / variables)
15:04:35 <DaveB> ACTION HowardK: review updated spec (appearing 1 Oct) for 5th Oct
15:04:44 <SteveH> I do think the ?'s help visually, but I see Alberto's concerns
15:05:01 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:05:01 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Web Service Constraints etc." taken up [from DanC]
15:05:11 <DaveB> (other review actions SteveH, DaveB continued)
15:05:31 <DaveB> KendallC action DONE
15:05:43 <DaveB> in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0553.html
15:05:56 <Yoshio> * re: ? and $ what has become of the problem when bookmarking?
15:06:19 <DaveB> Yoshio: it makes little difference, you have to URI escape lots of characters anyway, for safety
15:06:48 <Yoshio> DaveB: I see
15:06:52 <DaveB> DanC - would be nice to have a UC re rdf query and web service constraints
15:07:34 <DaveB> ACTION EricP: draft UC on overlap between RDF query and web service constraints
15:07:47 <DaveB> ... re WS-Policy
15:08:10 <DaveB> also see OWL-S, lots of other semantic web services work
15:08:47 <DaveB> possibly for a new UC draft 5th Oct
15:08:50 <DaveB> (UC&R)
15:09:09 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:09:09 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Toward updated Use Cases & Requirements WD" taken up [from DanC]
15:09:39 <AlbertoR> Yoshio: no is more about client side DBC API having problems dealing with '?' e.g. queries run through M$ Excel using an ODBC - you need wierd escaping of ? sings - Dirk will (hopefully) email more abou this later
15:09:46 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases $Revision: 1.42 $ of $Date: 2004/09/28 16:16:59 $
15:09:54 <DaveB> KendallC has UC to add identity management, DI, above query/WS one, (danbri one)
15:09:59 <DaveB> action continued
15:10:18 <DaveB> SteveH continued
15:11:15 <DaveB> ACTION PatH: Review UC&R draft appearing around Oct1, for Oct5 telcon
15:12:26 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:12:26 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ftf meeting schedule" taken up [from DanC]
15:13:01 <DaveB> SteveH can host, haven't written the email
15:13:17 <DaveB> southampton offers to host
15:13:18 <DaveB> action done
15:13:22 <ericP> if we're going to be cold, let's go all the way
15:13:34 <DanC> Zakim, who's on the phone?
15:13:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see Yoshio, DaveB, DanC, HiroyuiS, AndyS, EricP, HowardK, SteveH, PatH, [ASemantics], SimonR, ??P32, Kendall_Clark
15:13:49 <Yoshio> Cool : )
15:14:09 <DaveB> Yoshio pref Helsinki
15:14:30 <DaveB> DaveB Southampton, then WDC
15:14:33 <DaveB> DanC no pref
15:14:51 <DaveB> Hiroyuki pref Helsinki
15:15:01 <DaveB> AndyS Southampton, Helsink, WDC that order
15:15:03 <Yoshio> * can we see aurora there?
15:15:18 <DaveB> EricP Helsinki, Southampton, WDC (but pref Helsinki!)
15:15:27 <DaveB> HowardK WDC (if !Bush) else Helsinki
15:15:45 <DaveB> SteveH Southampton Helsinki WDC
15:15:55 <DaveB> PatH WDC Southampton Helsinki
15:16:03 <DaveB> Alberto Helsinki Southampton
15:16:21 <DaveB> SimonR WDC or others no pref
15:16:26 <DaveB> Kendall Helsinki
15:16:31 <DanC> Zakim, ??P32 is JosD
15:16:31 <Zakim> +JosD; got it
15:16:32 <DaveB> JosD WDC
15:17:16 <DaveB> Helsinki would be regrets - JosD, PatH
15:17:53 <ericP> it should be easy to eliminate
15:18:13 <AndyS> Richard Branson is arranging it.
15:18:19 <kendall> heh
15:19:08 <DanC>     January 2005
15:19:08 <DanC> Su Mo Tu We Th Fr Sa
15:19:09 <DanC>                    1
15:19:11 <DanC>  2  3  4  5  6  7  8
15:19:13 <DanC>  9 10 11 12 13 14 15
15:19:15 <DanC> 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
15:19:17 <DanC> 23 24 25 26 27 28 29
15:19:19 <DanC> 30 31
15:21:19 <DaveB> PROPOSED: 19-20 January 2005 Espo, Finland hosted by Profium
15:21:41 <DaveB> RESOLVED F2F4 above
15:21:43 <kendall> yay vodka!
15:21:56 <ericP> and saunas
15:21:58 <AlbertoR> sauna too :)
15:22:13 <kendall> and birch-leaved self-flagellation ^H^H^H^H oops :>
15:22:13 <ericP> and hacheting holes in the ice so we can swim
15:24:24 <kendall> wow
15:24:34 <DanC> 28 February - 4 March 2005
15:24:34 <DanC>     W3C Technical plenary (per W3C member events calendar)
15:24:47 <DaveB> ACTION EricP: find logistics re F2F5 at tech plenary in Boston March 28Feb-4Mar (2 days)
15:25:04 <DaveB> some pref to Mon/Tue for f2f5
15:25:23 <kendall> +1
15:25:40 <DanC> Zakim, close this agendum
15:25:40 <Zakim> agendum 7 closed
15:25:41 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:25:42 <Zakim> 8. Issues [from DanC]
15:25:51 <AndyS> +1 to Mon/Tues
15:25:52 <DanC> agenda?
15:26:28 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:26:28 <Zakim> agendum 8. "Issues" taken up [from DanC]
15:27:16 <DaveB> all item 8 actions state DONE/not done as in agenda
15:27:19 <DanC> Zakim, next agendum
15:27:19 <Zakim> agendum 8 was just opened, DanC
15:27:35 <DaveB> item 9
15:27:48 <DaveB> kendallC walking tour action continued
15:27:59 <DaveB> kendallC deadline is F2F4
15:28:18 <DaveB> KendallC CC interface, attempt this week or next.  continued
15:28:26 <DaveB> KendallC xml format - done
15:28:38 <DaveB> in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0554.html
15:28:50 <DaveB> DaveB format done
15:28:59 <DaveB> in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JulSep/0556.html
15:29:07 <DaveB> EricP action done
15:29:36 <DaveB> KendalLC - working on protocol doc not complete yet
15:31:19 <ericP> I'm really divided on the value of being validated by XML-Schema
15:31:25 <ericP> or DTD
15:32:09 <AlbertoR> q?
15:32:13 <AlbertoR> q+
15:32:28 <ericP> q+ to ask if dave tried to shorhorm either into an RDF-compatible form
15:33:12 <DanC> ack AlbertoR
15:33:19 <AndyS> q+
15:33:30 <kendall> q+ to ask about sparql var names fitting into xml names
15:33:35 <DaveB> more explanation needd - xslt, xpath - add an example
15:34:58 <DaveB> bnodes in results
15:35:02 <DaveB> issues with that
15:35:09 <kendall> q+ to ask what <hpage></hpage> means
15:35:18 <DaveB> PatH - does it allow future queries use that term?
15:35:44 <DanC> ack ericp
15:35:44 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to ask if dave tried to shorhorm either into an RDF-compatible form
15:35:52 <SteveH> kendall, I think <foo/> means foo=NULL
15:36:12 <DaveB> yeah, I didn't actually form the data & queries, sorry
15:36:14 <kendall> yeah
15:36:17 <DanC> then how to encode foo="", steveH?
15:36:21 <DaveB> I needed something with datatypes
15:36:24 <SimonR> SteveH: How do you represent an empty plain literal, then?
15:36:24 <kendall> not sure  what i think about that
15:36:31 <AlbertoR> DanC - right
15:36:47 <SteveH> DanC, agreed, I was guessing, no saying I liked it
15:36:49 <kendall> example with xml literal would be good, IMO
15:37:19 <DaveB> ah yeah; it'll be horribly entity encoded stuff
15:37:36 <kendall> yep, but be good to show it, fwiw
15:37:46 <AlbertoR> DaveB syntax is cool - much flatter than orginal - just wanna be sure it has got all feature we need
15:38:03 <SteveH> I like result1.xml, modulo NULL too
15:38:36 <DanC> ack andys
15:39:55 <DanC> ack kendall
15:39:55 <Zakim> kendall, you wanted to ask about sparql var names fitting into xml names and to ask what <hpage></hpage> means
15:40:31 <DaveB> explict it has no value, in xml syntax
15:40:43 <DaveB> ... is ok says AndyS
15:41:52 <DaveB> constraining variable names to fit in xml
15:42:01 <DaveB> ... matching xml name production or subset
15:42:15 <DaveB> AndyS in grammar, variable names are XML NCName
15:43:06 <AndyS> What about XML literals with same tag name?
15:43:10 <DaveB> PatH suggests introducing 'var ?x'
15:43:19 <DaveB> er, var x.  then withdraws
15:43:27 <DanC> I think he meant <var name="...">..</var>
15:44:17 <ericP> q?
15:44:37 <DaveB> adv to schema with closed content model
15:44:49 <DanC> q+
15:44:52 <DaveB> could be in editing with schemas
15:45:02 <DaveB> Alberto - or generating records
15:45:03 <AndyS> q+ to ask what we said about XMLliterals
15:45:10 <kendall> yes, easier to write this stuff by hand in smart xml editors w/ a schema
15:45:19 <kendall> but i don't much much stock in that use case
15:45:38 <DanC> ack danc
15:46:29 <DanC> ack andy
15:46:29 <Zakim> AndyS, you wanted to ask what we said about XMLliterals
15:46:30 <DaveB> hmm, could  have <name xsi:type="xsd:anyURI">...</name>
15:47:07 <DanC> hmm... xpath expression that accidently matches...
15:47:19 <AlbertoR> q+
15:47:24 <DaveB> worst case could be getting back a query in the result
15:47:39 <DaveB> suggestion to use <[!CDATA, or whatever the syntax is
15:48:00 <kendall> zakim, mute me
15:48:00 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:48:28 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
15:48:28 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:49:18 <kendall> zakim, mute me
15:49:18 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:50:28 <kendall> zakim, unmute me
15:50:28 <Zakim> Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:50:44 <DaveB> two results formats - var bindings, rdf graphs
15:50:52 <DaveB> the latter we have rdf/xml as rec format, also ntriples,...
15:51:01 <AndyS> +1 to returning RDF graphs as well as "XML for XML tools"
15:51:19 <DaveB> re the protocol design, KendallC has considered this two result formats.
15:51:33 <DaveB> DanC asks for examples of these cases
15:52:38 <DaveB> possibility of SELECT returning var binidngs (xml) and also returning a subgraph
15:52:48 <DaveB> ... in rdf/xml or whatever
15:54:11 <DaveB> DanC: the rdf graph result for variable bindings might either look like a) the query graph or b) an encoding of the variable bindings, like the test resutl format
15:54:18 <kendall> thx
15:55:00 <DaveB> CONSTRUCT in the current doc present but not up-to-date linked with earlier sections
15:55:13 <DaveB> KendallC - third kind is the ASK result boolean
15:55:14 <DanC> (I think we're already pretty high-risk, so I encourage you to go for it, AndyS)
15:55:36 <AndyS> :-)
15:55:41 <AlbertoR> q- I will take question about result1.xml on list later
15:55:49 <AlbertoR> q-
15:56:16 <DaveB> DaveB - need a format for ASK result without a protocol
15:56:38 <DanC> regrets next week from JosD
15:56:46 <DanC> ADJOURN.
15:56:51 <Zakim> -DaveB
15:56:53 <Zakim> -[ASemantics]
15:56:54 <Zakim> -PatH
15:56:55 <Zakim> -JosD
15:56:58 <Yoshio> bye
15:57:00 <Zakim> -SimonR
15:57:01 <Zakim> -SteveH
15:57:03 <Zakim> -DanC
15:57:04 <Zakim> -HiroyuiS
15:57:05 <Zakim> -Kendall_Clark
15:57:06 <Zakim> -HowardK
15:57:07 <Zakim> -Yoshio
15:57:24 <AlbertoR> AlbertoR has left #dawg
15:57:35 <HiroyukiS> bye
15:57:40 <DanC> hm.... ASK result format: <aye/> vs. <nay/>. 1/2 ;-)
15:58:20 <DaveB> :)
15:58:33 <AndyS> +1 (=true)
15:58:43 <DaveB> how about +1, -1 or 0 (dunno)
15:59:27 <DaveB> IIRC OWL tests had a single char answer for something
16:07:03 <DanC> Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:07:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see AndyS, EricP
16:07:15 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/09/28-dawg-irc#T16-07-03-1
16:14:59 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:15:00 <Zakim> -EricP
16:15:01 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:15:02 <Zakim> Attendees were Yoshio, DaveB, Kendall_Clark, DanC, AndyS, HiroyuiS, EricP, HowardK, SteveH, PatH, [ASemantics], SimonR, JosD