13:55:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:55:53 <Michael> rrsagent, make logs world
13:59:38 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
14:03:38 <Becky> do we need to tell zakim what meeting this is?
14:03:49 <Michael> it's set
14:04:15 <Michael> zakim, this is wai_wcag
14:04:15 <Zakim> ok, Michael; that matches WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM
14:04:20 <Michael> sorry, I was wrong
14:04:49 <Michael> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see +1.425.885.aaaa, Alex_Li, ??P16, Becky_Gibson
14:04:55 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
14:05:07 <Zakim> +[ATTcaller]
14:05:27 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
14:05:54 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
14:06:30 <Michael> zakim, +1.425 is Jenae_Andershonis
14:06:30 <Zakim> +Jenae_Andershonis; got it
14:07:17 <Michael> zakim, [ATT is Tim_Boland
14:07:17 <Zakim> +Tim_Boland; got it
14:07:24 <Michael> zakim, ??P16 is Lisa_Seeman
14:07:24 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:09:39 <Michael> Topic: Acquiring Test Materials
14:09:44 <Michael> scribe: Michael
14:10:01 <Michael> will take time to do
14:10:09 <Michael> need documentation from Chris on how it all works
14:10:22 <Michael> big decision is, do we want to take Chris's test case?
14:10:34 <Michael> Will still have process of adding / removing
14:10:52 <Michael> Chris has to ok if we take his
14:11:00 <Michael> We have to redo work if we don't
14:12:43 <Michael> ls concern that tests just say "take a look at this"
14:13:00 <Michael> want "artificial intelligence" to help with that
14:13:19 <Michael> ja this will be an issue that will just be part of it
14:13:49 <Michael> tb would tests be supported by multiple implementations on multiple platforms?
14:13:58 <Michael> ja that's where the browser matrix comes in
14:14:20 <Michael> will need to update that to the test suite
14:14:48 <Michael> ja if we take tests, W3C will own tests
14:15:00 <Michael> tb so Chris can't maintain privately any more
14:15:43 <Michael> ja though there will be one person managing the test suites anyway
14:15:55 <Michael> ls are they normative?
14:15:56 <Michael> ja no
14:16:44 <Michael> W3C process will help in the discussion
14:17:00 <Michael> but trying to push them through to Recommendation would be way too difficult
14:17:12 <Michael> lots of work to do no matter what direction we go
14:17:30 <Michael> Will need to be sure to follow QA process
14:17:36 <Michael> can call on members of the QAWG to help
14:19:24 <Michael> mc propose we adopt Chris's tests, need to propose to WCAG WG
14:19:30 <Michael> tb need to check in with Chris
14:20:07 <Michael> :)
14:20:51 <Michael> ls Chris need to be sure he understands what's gonna happen with his stuff, i.e., he should be really clear on the transfer process
14:21:41 <Michael> ls be clear that if we adopt Chris's tests it's just as a basis, to which we can make any necessary modifications
14:22:08 <Michael> e.g., need to change from "programmatical assertions" to "have you tested this?"
14:22:40 <Michael> ja need to create a document on how we'll do the transfer, and a document on changes we'd make
14:23:46 <Michael> mc we can decide on the changes later, once we own it
14:24:12 <Michael> action: Jenae work up transfer document, work with QA editor
14:24:43 <Michael> action: Michael alert Chris, will wait on Jenae's document to proceed
14:28:13 <Zakim> -Jenae_Andershonis
14:28:21 <Zakim> -Tim_Boland
14:29:16 <Michael> Topic: RDF techniques
14:29:36 <Michael> ls has gotten some feedback on lists etc.
14:30:06 <Michael> hasn't worried about basic stuff like typos yet
14:31:12 <Michael> ls what info needed so people can look at the techniques and understand them?
14:31:39 <Michael> can send pieces of info around until people understand what's up
14:32:29 <Michael> would like to know where people are getting lost
14:32:44 <Michael> bg it's not something people have examples of
14:33:31 <Michael> al formatting makes it a bit difficult too
14:35:07 <Michael> adopting Andi's suggestions for relationship of documents will also make it easier to understand RDF techniques
14:36:49 <Michael> mc RDF techniques probably won't be included in the November public drafts
14:37:01 <Michael> ls what needs to be done so they could be ready for that?
14:41:44 <Michael> action: Michael, Wendy, Lisa coordinate on time and way to present RDF techniques to WG
14:50:45 <Zakim> +??P35
14:51:01 <Michael> Topic: Hiding Labels
14:51:28 <Michael> zakim, ??P35 is David_MacDonald
14:51:28 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
14:52:01 <Michael> bg four methods to hide lables
14:52:04 <Michael> image w/ alt
14:52:06 <Michael> title on control
14:52:12 <Michael> display:none on label
14:52:16 <Michael> position label off screen
14:52:29 <Michael> vote on list was in favor of positioning off screen
14:53:05 <Michael> concern that if CSS disabled, undesired things displayed, but in reality bigger things messed up too
14:54:03 <Michael> title works, but not supported by eval tools
14:54:31 <Michael> display:none works with screen readers
14:55:04 <Michael> concern that if screen readers changing their handling of display:none
14:55:11 <Michael> tested that with labels they still get presented
14:55:47 <Michael> mc that's in line with my testing of labels, that they have a programmatic association with the control
14:56:03 <Michael> ls a lot of people consider screen readers displaying display:none to be a bug
14:57:58 <Michael> bg it makes sense to include all four techniques as optional techniques
14:58:07 <Michael> mc can log UA issues with each as needed
14:58:20 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
14:59:52 <Michael> moving things off to the left or top better than off to the right, because of horizontal scrolling
15:02:13 <Michael> action: Becky write up techniques for the four label things for Wendy and Michael to include in docs
15:04:09 <Zakim> + +1.978.399.aabb
15:04:30 <Michael> zakim, +1.978 is Becky_Gibson2
15:04:30 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson2; got it
15:05:15 <Michael> Topic: Image Replacement
15:05:39 <Michael> mc disparages the idea of using such an elaborate workaround for a design choice
15:06:01 <Michael> dmd some people take the design very seriously, it's better to give them an accessible way to express it
15:06:09 <Michael> bg that's why it's proposed
15:07:39 <Michael> helps in certain conditions
15:07:45 <Michael> dmd are they marginal conditions?
15:08:58 <Michael> ls metadata / rdf could relate the image to a text equivalent, even if the image is in CSS
15:09:11 <Michael> bg rdf isn't supported yet
15:09:54 <Michael> mc we can still have both ways in the arsenal, authors can choose which to use
15:10:04 <Michael> dmd we could make recommendations
15:10:24 <Michael> bg high contrast users turn of css but not images; in this case image disappears when CSS turned off
15:13:11 <Michael> action: Wendy add image replacement to CSS techniques based on Becky's post
15:14:08 <Michael> action: Lisa create RDF techniques for associating text alternatives with images, and for having alternate versions of images (e.g., a larger, higher contrast one)
15:19:05 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
15:19:06 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson2
15:19:07 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
15:19:08 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:22:07 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
15:22:08 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:22:09 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.425.885.aaaa, Alex_Li, Becky_Gibson, [ATTcaller], Michael_Cooper, Jenae_Andershonis, Tim_Boland, Lisa_Seeman, David_MacDonald, +1.978.399.aabb, Becky_Gibson2
16:58:30 <Michael> zakim, bye
16:58:30 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:58:34 <Michael> rrsagent, bye
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> I see 6 open action items:
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Jenae work up transfer document, work with QA editor [1]
16:58:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-12
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael alert Chris, will wait on Jenae's document to proceed [2]
16:58:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-43
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael, Wendy, Lisa coordinate on time and way to present RDF techniques to WG [3]
16:58:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T14-41-44
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Becky write up techniques for the four label things for Wendy and Michael to include in docs [4]
16:58:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-02-13
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Wendy add image replacement to CSS techniques based on Becky's post [5]
16:58:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-13-11
16:58:34 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Lisa create RDF techniques for associating text alternatives with images, and for having alternate versions of images (e.g., a larger, higher contrast one) [6]
16:58:34 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/22-wai-wcag-irc#T15-14-08