19:51:32 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:51:40 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log public
19:51:46 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log worold
19:51:48 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
19:51:55 <wendy> sheesh! i can't type today.
19:52:28 <wendy> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0654.html
19:56:09 <wendy> agenda+ TTF summary - Naming of Gateway/General (update on TTF discussion)
19:56:32 <wendy> agenda+ Guideline 1.1 (3 part discussion)
19:56:49 <wendy> agenda+ Guideline 4.2 and baseline technology
19:56:57 <wendy> agenda+ Check-in about future face-to-face meetings
19:57:01 <Gez> Gez has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:34 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:02:01 <Michael> zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
20:02:01 <Zakim> sorry, Michael, I do not see a party named 'Michael_Cooper'
20:02:20 <Michael> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:20 <Zakim> sorry, Michael, I don't know what conference this is
20:02:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see Becky, Gez, RRSAgent, Zakim, Michael, bengt, wendy, sh1mmer
20:02:27 <Michael> zakim, this is wai
20:02:27 <Zakim> ok, Michael; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:02:34 <Michael> zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
20:02:35 <Zakim> ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
20:02:38 <Zakim> +??P8
20:02:46 <wendy> zakim, ??P8 is Kerstin
20:02:46 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
20:02:50 <Michael> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P1, Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin
20:02:57 <wendy> zakim, ??P1 is David
20:02:57 <Zakim> +David; got it
20:02:59 <Zakim> +Alex_Li
20:03:00 <Becky> zakim, Iam Becky_Gibson
20:03:00 <Zakim> I don't understand 'Iam Becky_Gibson', Becky
20:03:05 <Becky> zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
20:03:05 <Zakim> ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
20:04:31 <Zakim> +JasonWhite
20:04:32 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:06 <Zakim> +??P9
20:05:21 <bcaldwell> zakim, ??P9 is Gregg_and_Ben
20:05:21 <Zakim> +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
20:05:41 <gregg> gregg has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:18 <bcaldwell> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:06:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see David, Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben
20:06:49 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink
20:08:04 <Yvette_Hoitink> Yvette_Hoitink has joined #wai-wcag
20:08:15 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:08:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see David, Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Yvette_Hoitink
20:11:36 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, mute me
20:11:36 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:11:45 <wendy> zakim, take up item 1
20:11:45 <Zakim> agendum 1. "TTF summary - Naming of Gateway/General (update on TTF discussion)" taken up [from wendy]
20:13:35 <wendy> zakim, who's making noise?
20:13:45 <Zakim> wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: David (18%), John_Slatin (19%), Michael_Cooper (39%), JasonWhite (9%)
20:14:25 <wendy> working on: test suites, rdf techniques, scripting techniques
20:15:05 <wendy> mc we need resolution on baseline/4.2 issues to continue our work.
20:15:12 <wendy> mc have proposal to rename gateway techniques
20:15:33 <wendy> js proposal is to rename "gateway to techniues" as "general techniques for wcag 2.0
20:15:49 <wendy> js there has been some discussion in the past.
20:16:08 <wendy> js came up in discussion of overview draft
20:16:20 <wendy> zakim, mute david
20:16:20 <Zakim> David should now be muted
20:17:25 <gregg> Bengt - what is the problem - what does problem look like
20:19:04 <wendy> ?no disagreement to rename it General Techniques for WCAG 2.0
20:19:07 <wendy> ack David
20:19:42 <wendy> dm is the proposal both renaming and purpose or just renaming?
20:19:50 <wendy> js linkages still need to be worked out.
20:21:52 <wendy> 9224
20:21:53 <wendy> ?
20:22:09 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:22:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see David (muted), Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, Alex_Li, JasonWhite (muted), Gregg_and_Ben,
20:22:12 <Zakim> ... Yvette_Hoitink (muted)
20:23:06 <wendy> there is plenty o fspace on the bridge...
20:24:04 <wendy> zakim, close item 1
20:24:04 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
20:24:05 <Zakim> I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:24:06 <Zakim> 2. Guideline 1.1 (3 part discussion) [from wendy]
20:24:12 <wendy> zakim, take up next item
20:24:12 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Guideline 1.1 (3 part discussion)" taken up [from wendy]
20:24:14 <bengt> yeah, but it say this passcode is not valid it is strange
20:24:46 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:25:02 <wendy> zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
20:25:02 <Zakim> +Mike_Barta; got it
20:25:37 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "5 has OR instead of AND"
20:27:24 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, unmute me
20:27:24 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:27:53 <wendy> proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0651.html
20:28:07 <wendy> can satisfy the "or" by not being multimedia
20:28:17 <wendy> yh the "or" should be an "and"
20:28:20 <wendy> ack yvette
20:28:20 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "5 has OR instead of AND"
20:28:34 <wendy> gv "and is not either multimedia nor ..."
20:28:57 <wendy> q+ to say "editorial, but text-alternative?"
20:29:14 <wendy> ack gez
20:29:25 <wendy> gl "marked up such that it can be ignored..."
20:29:39 <wendy> gl better to say, "graceful degredation in AT" just in case there is something other than ignoring?
20:29:44 <wendy> yh we want them to ignore it
20:29:44 <Michael> zakim, mute me
20:29:44 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper should now be muted
20:30:41 <wendy> yh typical example is null alt-text?
20:31:01 <wendy> gv can be handled appropriately?
20:31:04 <wendy> js not testable
20:32:12 <wendy> gv should we change the wording?
20:32:17 <wendy> gv go with for now
20:32:22 <wendy> ack wendy
20:32:22 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say "editorial, but text-alternative?"
20:32:53 <bcaldwell> revised wording to #5: 5. Non-text content that does not provide information, functionality, 
20:32:53 <bcaldwell> sensory experience and is neither multimedia nor time-dependent interactive content, is marked such that it can be ignored by assistive technology. [I] 
20:33:19 <wendy> gv since they are not alternatives to text, do want hyphen.
20:33:57 <wendy> gv we want it to be an alternative that is text 
20:35:38 <wendy> action: john investigate what is appropriate for "text alternative" hyphen or not
20:37:16 <wendy> wac raises flag that 1.1 and 1.2 might need to be combined.
20:38:16 <wendy> gv or explicitly exclude 1.2 issues from 1.1
20:38:49 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, mute me
20:38:49 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:40:28 <wendy> bg we've added #6?
20:41:17 <wendy> resolution to adopt proposal w/today's changes
20:42:39 <wendy> next issue: does 1.1 apply to scripts and/or interaction?
20:42:55 <Michael> q+ to say content vs. interaction
20:42:55 <bengt> bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:43:35 <wendy> bg wasn't thinking in terms of 1.1, but issue came up with scripting techs
20:44:07 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "How is JS support for AT?"
20:44:11 <wendy> bg m3m believes for the most part can do everything w/script (except for a few exceptions)
20:44:16 <wendy> bg comes back to conformance issues
20:44:21 <wendy> bg can write javascript that is accessible
20:44:38 <wendy> gv related to baseline technology
20:45:02 <wendy> gv of a particular class or random?
20:45:23 <wendy> bg e.g., espn scoreboard as well as html-based wysiwyg editor
20:45:39 <wendy> bg also raises problem that those things that make it editable are not in any dtd.
20:45:50 <wendy> bg thus, related to using tech according to spec
20:46:01 <wendy> gv using according to spec diff than don't use anything not in a spec
20:46:10 <wendy> ack jason
20:46:50 <wendy> jw would like to scripts away from guideline 1.1 b/c the altenratives to scripts could be just as interactive, e.g., declarative markup (eg xforms)
20:47:37 <wendy> jw where content be made accessible, should be under guideline 4
20:47:40 <bcaldwell> q+
20:47:46 <wendy> s/be made/cannot be made
20:47:47 <Michael> ack Michael
20:47:48 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to say content vs. interaction
20:47:49 <wendy> ack michael
20:48:07 <bengt_> bengt_ has joined #wai-wcag
20:48:09 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, unmute me
20:48:09 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:48:30 <wendy> mc non-text content should be content that doesn't have a text representation (images, movies, etc.). the interactions created by scripts are not "content"
20:48:36 <wendy> q+ to say "DIWG POV"
20:48:59 <wendy> mc applets and flash both have interaction and have movies, images, etc.
20:49:15 <wendy> mc if providing interactive service, would not be part of 1.1
20:50:49 <wendy> ack yvette
20:50:49 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "How is JS support for AT?"
20:51:02 <wendy> yh can do stuff w/script that don't require alternatives.
20:51:22 <wendy> yh if create real content, then different guidelines apply.
20:51:29 <wendy> yh it depends on the use which guidelines apply.
20:51:37 <wendy> ack bcal
20:51:54 <wendy> bc they all fall into both. don't think scripts/prog objects completely out of 1.1
20:52:08 <wendy> bc need to draw line between labeling/describing/identifying with 
20:52:13 <wendy> bc interacting with
20:52:28 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, mute me
20:52:28 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:52:36 <wendy> bc 1.1 labels/etc 4.2 directly accessible or alternaitve for functionality
20:52:44 <wendy> ack wendy
20:52:44 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say "DIWG POV"
20:54:04 <Becky> q+
20:54:59 <wendy> wac http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-di-wg/2004Sep/0040.html
20:55:21 <wendy> wac more reason to combine 1.1/1.2 (label/desribing) and 4.2 (interaction)
20:55:24 <wendy> ack becky
20:55:37 <wendy> bg how do you label script?
20:56:06 <wendy> bc when you look at what the script is, depends on what it does.
20:56:13 <wendy> ack jason
20:57:10 <Michael> q+ to agree with Jason, but the act of creation isn't itself subject
20:57:54 <wendy> q+ to ask "prog object - scripts and plug-ins?"
20:58:06 <wendy> mc if prog ob generates image, then needs text alternative
20:58:32 <wendy> mc act of creation is not subject to 1.1
20:58:41 <wendy> ack wendy
20:58:41 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to ask "prog object - scripts and plug-ins?"
20:58:46 <wendy> ack michael
20:58:46 <Zakim> Michael_Cooper, you wanted to agree with Jason, but the act of creation isn't itself subject
20:59:31 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "technology independent"
20:59:51 <wendy> wac clarification of programmatic object - mean scripts and plug-ins?
20:59:54 <wendy> ack john
21:00:14 <wendy> js when we talk about scripts, are we talking about script web content or the result that is web cvontent?
21:00:31 <wendy> js you don't see script on the screen, you see an ojbect, or an image as a result.
21:00:47 <wendy> q+ to say "content - depends on defn. if it is what is shipped or what you perceive"
21:02:15 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, unmute me
21:02:15 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:02:23 <wendy> wac delivery unit, authored unit
21:02:25 <wendy> ack wendy
21:02:25 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say "content - depends on defn. if it is what is shipped or what you perceive"
21:02:30 <wendy> ack yvette
21:02:30 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "technology independent"
21:02:39 <wendy> yh trying to make tech indie guidelines.
21:02:50 <wendy> yh "plug-ins" is html-specific
21:04:11 <wendy> q+ to ask "how much of this is an html-specific issue?  e.g., sccripting and svg?"
21:04:14 <wendy> ack jason
21:04:23 <wendy> jw anything written in a programming language.
21:04:48 <wendy> jw can all of the recursive functions and operations of turing machine be implemented
21:05:12 <wendy> jw what is content?  the problem is that if interaction and related matters are not part of content.
21:05:28 <wendy> jw then our guidelines don't apply, since they are "web content accessibility guidelines"
21:05:55 <wendy> jw everything written by author for delivery which may or many not get delivered is part of the content.
21:06:24 <wendy> ack wendy
21:06:24 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to ask "how much of this is an html-specific issue?  e.g., sccripting and svg?"
21:10:03 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, unmute me
21:10:03 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink was not muted, Yvette_Hoitink
21:12:37 <wendy> wac seems that we need some definitions (programmatic objects, content, etc.) and a dvision between non-text content that needs a label vs interaction that needs to be functional
21:13:31 <wendy> this is still an open issue. put on agenda for f2f. discussion about defns
21:14:40 <wendy> action: wac, ben, gez, michael, jason brainstorm about defns
21:15:26 <wendy> ack gez
21:17:20 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "<img src="
21:17:56 <wendy> gv trying to get ascii art out of non-text content
21:18:10 <wendy> gv "a non-linear string of characters"
21:18:14 <wendy> gv mathematics?
21:18:32 <wendy> wac all of the chars are unicode charaacters, the markup specifies the semantics/relationships between them to make equations
21:18:37 <wendy> jw agrees w/wendy
21:19:13 <wendy> gv scripts can be done in markup
21:19:55 <wendy> gv are equations text or non-text?
21:19:58 <wendy> gv where you have to use markup
21:20:46 <wendy> lg if an equation is in unicode characters and need structure to comprehend
21:21:12 <wendy> wac similar to 1.3 where need to provide structure for a document?
21:21:21 <wendy> jw then every table would become non-text
21:21:54 <wendy> jw the structures are different. if had to represented as linear sequence, then every table which is 2 dimensional, would become non-text
21:22:21 <wendy> jw instead, "if representable linearly then it is non-text"  then equations can be include
21:22:45 <wendy> q+ to ask, "are we making this too difficult only to exclude ascii art?"
21:23:35 <wendy> ack loretta
21:23:47 <wendy> lg not so much if "can be represented" but "if it is represented"
21:23:59 <wendy> ls if have an image of text, it could be represented by unocide, however it is not.
21:24:03 <wendy> s/ls/lg
21:24:19 <wendy> lg content that is not being represented by unicode characters
21:24:34 <wendy> gv ascii art is represented by unicode characters
21:25:26 <wendy> ack yvette
21:25:26 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "<img src="
21:26:06 <wendy> ack wendy
21:26:06 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to ask, "are we making this too difficult only to exclude ascii art?"
21:28:26 <bcaldwell> ack Jason
21:28:35 <wendy> wac goes back to earlier issue of rendered content vs what is provided that causese that rendering
21:28:47 <wendy> jw agree that ascii art is marginal exception. just needs to be mentioned somewhere
21:30:10 <wendy> gv "as it is presented to the user is in unicode..."
21:30:49 <wendy> text than when rendered for the user is a sequence of characters.  Characters are defined by unicode.
21:31:41 <wendy> explicitly exclude ascii art
21:32:24 <Zakim> -Mike_Barta
21:38:15 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, mute me
21:38:15 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:40:20 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
21:40:34 <Zakim> -Matt
21:40:43 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
21:41:24 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, unmute me
21:41:24 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:42:01 <wendy> group agrees that meeting m/t and t/f at the t.p. instead of csun seems a good idea.  t.p.. is in boston 28 february - 4 march
21:42:05 <wendy> ack kerstin
21:42:12 <Zakim> -Alex_Li
21:42:13 <Zakim> -Gez
21:42:14 <Zakim> -Kerstin
21:42:14 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
21:42:15 <Zakim> -Gregg_and_Ben
21:42:15 <Zakim> -Wendy
21:42:16 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
21:42:17 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:42:19 <Zakim> -David
21:42:19 <Gez> Gez has left #wai-wcag
21:42:21 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:42:23 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gez, John_Slatin, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Kerstin, David, Alex_Li, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Yvette_Hoitink, Mike_Barta
21:42:26 <wendy> zakim, bye
21:42:26 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:42:31 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
21:42:31 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items:
21:42:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: john investigate what is appropriate for "text alternative" hyphen or not [1]
21:42:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-wai-wcag-irc#T20-35-38
21:42:31 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wac, ben, gez, michael, jason brainstorm about defns [2]
21:42:31 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/16-wai-wcag-irc#T21-14-40