14:00:59 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:01:06 rrsagent, make logs world 14:01:40 +Michael_Cooper 14:01:48 bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag 14:01:48 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 14:02:09 zakim, I am Michael_Cooper 14:02:09 ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper 14:02:24 +??P10 14:02:33 +Becky_Gibson 14:02:36 zakim, ??P10 is Ben 14:02:36 +Ben; got it 14:02:46 +Wendy 14:03:08 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 14:03:17 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:03:18 On the phone I see Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Becky_Gibson, Wendy 14:03:27 zakim, I am Ben 14:03:28 ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben 14:03:54 zakim, I am Becky_Gibson 14:03:54 ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson 14:05:50 +Tim_Boland 14:06:52 Topic: new drafts this Friday 14:07:49 changes we've agreed to since 30 July drafts should be incorporated. internal drafts this friday, in prep for next internal draft on 8 october, in prep for next public draft on 3 november 14:07:58 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/WD-plan.html 14:12:52 Topic: Gateway 1.3 proposal 14:16:07 http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-GATEWAY-20040730/criterion1.1.1.html 14:19:17 "Users can take advantage of functionality built into user agents (including assistive technology) to gain an overview of the document's organization and to navigate easily from section to section." true for all technologies? is this an assumption based on HTML worldview? 14:20:23 in the case of xml with css, yes there is structure, but does the user agent know about it? 14:20:47 +Don_Evans 14:21:30 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:23:51 have to get semantics from schema. until can do that, user agent won't be able to determine relationships. 14:24:02 back at the baseline 14:24:22 brings us back to the baseline and support in user agents 14:25:07 what about svg? 14:27:22 an overview won't be necessary for all types of web content. 14:28:26 structure that can be navigated is the key here. 14:28:33 perhaps if change the and to an or in, "Users can take advantage of functionality built into user agents (including assistive technology) to gain an overview of the document's organization and to navigate easily from section to section." 14:29:29 forms - included in all techs? yes, reason for xforms so can embed anywhere. 14:29:34 tables? 14:30:45 data vs layout is an html-speicifc thing. so in gateway only discuss data. 14:32:46 put these into friday's draft? 14:33:55 15.1 a copy error? 14:34:09 action: wendy convert to xml and publish with friday's internal draft 14:34:50 Topic: CSS Tech for image-text 14:34:51 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0469.html 14:35:58 if in a browser where can change font size (in 60pt font there is overlap). operates in OS-level high contrast mode, images turned off, css turned off... 14:36:16 however, do we want to include a technique that says how to use image text. 14:36:31 instead of saying, don't use text in images, say use better technologies as they become available. 14:36:54 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:36:57 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:00 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:03 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:06 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:10 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:13 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:16 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:37:18 why don't you use alt text? IE (if you turn off images) it keeps the size of teh image and writes alt-text in default size, they won't see it. 14:37:19 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:38:16 which guideline does this satisfy? 14:38:30 or is it a work-around for another guideline? 14:39:53 related to: 14:39:59 Guideline 1.1 Provide text alternatives for all non-text content. 14:40:10 # Guideline 1.3 Ensure that information, functionality, and structure are separable from presentation. 14:40:12 # Guideline 1.4 In visual presentations, make it easy to distinguish foreground words and images from the background. 14:40:19 go into css or html techniques? 14:40:40 it's a workaround for an html issue. it's using css for the image. 14:42:05 seems to be an optional technique 14:44:25 want to rework our image of "old fuddy duddies" and give people information about how to develop techniques (things to consider) 14:44:32 help apply pressure on asst tech. 14:45:24 people complain about not making jazzy site accessible. this isn't completely perfect, because if someone is using 60pt font, but it will hit a wide audience. 14:45:56 include it to encourage developers to make it work in 60 pt font 14:46:19 put in css techs w/ednote saying "blurs boundaries between html and css techs" 14:46:28 if not using css, don't want to encounter this 14:50:36 action: wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font 14:50:58 action 2= wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font, add ednote about issue 14:52:26 next weeK: talk about blink 14:53:03 Topic: html proposals from last week 14:54:35 most discussion happened about h1. on call, said didn't want to do that. on list, other opinions. 14:54:58 propose: don't create technique yet, but ednote, "discussion about restricting use of heading elements" 14:56:19 action: michael update issue 925 with pointer to thread and summary of isues 14:56:34 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:56:37 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:56:40 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:56:43 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:56:46 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:56:48 issue 899 - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0433.html 14:56:49 donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag 14:57:18 in WCAG 1.0 14:57:37 anything appeared in wcag 1.0, need to say something in 2.0, even if to say "don't require this" 14:57:56 didn't we purposely pull this one? 14:58:51 yes, although probably before concept of "deprecated technique" 14:58:58 one response arguing against deprecating 15:00:34 the response said HPR doesn't handle well? 15:00:41 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0448.html 15:00:59 action: becky investigate HPR support 15:01:29 action: michael add ednote, update issue, point to issue from ednote 15:01:53 issue 900: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0434.html 15:02:44 related to baseline discussion 15:04:23 mainly getting at css positioning - weird source code order where wouldn't make sense w/out css 15:06:02 if using css+javascript won't work. this is really a test for good linearization. perhaps reformulate that way. 15:07:05 in wcag 1.0 worded ...., in 2.0 as we move towards as acceptance of scripting it.... 15:07:20 901 and 914 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0435.html 15:07:47 related to plug-in discussion from wcag wg 15:08:10 in html techs, won't say much beyond "plug-ins need to be accessible" and then point to java api doc, etc. 15:08:26 have a tech for object/embed/applet that is comparable to d-link from 1.0? 15:09:17 came up in context of conversation between john and joe. do any of the techniques actually work? i.e., rendering of content in an object tag. 15:09:39 thus, only reliable method to give authors is to provide a link to it outside of the object tag, similar to d-link. 15:09:53 need a tech under programmatic object for this? 15:10:11 a separate discussion from bugzilla issue? 15:10:19 this issue is about applets being directly accesible. 15:10:26 which comes back to baseline discussion. 15:13:39 is there a css technique that could display the alt content? 15:13:54 would an asst tech pick it up? 15:14:49 cuase the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs. 15:15:02 try with applet, embed, and object 15:15:29 applet and embed have alt attribute, embed and object have nested content. embed has noembed (like noscript) 15:16:20 -Tim_Boland 15:17:07 action becky: play with css to cause the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs for applet, embed, and object 15:17:22 action michael: add placeholder for a tech to display alt content of applet, embed, and object 15:18:18 guidelines say that prog objects must follow uaag 15:19:12 link to other techniques documents, e.g., link to macromedia flash techniques 15:19:40 embedded content meet wcag. if applet follow java accessibility guidelines (for meeting wcag). the plug-in viewer would need to meet uaag. 15:20:27 propose: create technique, 2nd ednote is that plug-in must meet uaag 15:20:46 issue 902 15:20:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0436.html 15:21:38 not inherited from wcag 1.0. whole pages where the content *is* the applet. related to baseline discussion. 15:25:14 technique with link to baseline discussion/issue 15:25:26 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0437.html 15:26:08 won't be just a cut/paste from wcag 1.0 because of changes in flicker in guidelines. 15:26:22 may be introducing flicker issues, "go here for more info" that's cool. 15:26:24 same with color. 15:26:54 from w/in "direct accessiblity" include info for color and flicker since part of direct accessibility. 15:27:43 action michael: add 903, 917 (flicker) 904, 916 (color) to diret accessibility tech 15:30:08 presentation elements: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0440.html 15:31:38 B and I are not deprecated, basefont and font are deprecated 15:32:10 if not using css, why not use b and i for the purpose of formatting 15:35:30 from matt's blog: 15:35:32 http://www.bestkungfu.com/archive/date/2004/05/strongly-emphasizing-semantics/ 15:35:44 The and elements are valid HTML. They?re fine for transitional HTML applications, when they are not used interchangeably with and . But they are not in the toolkits of semantic coders, and they?re misused 98% of the time. (That?s an underestimation.) If you can tell what 2% is right, go ahead and use them. If you can?t, here?s help. 15:35:57 The Chicago Manual of Style has one approved non-emphasis-related use of bold (abbreviated ?dynamics in music"), and eight for italics. So these are the cases where using is not the end of the world, with those covered by other HTML elements removed. (Note that four of them are practical subsets of the first, which is covered by the lang attribute.) 15:35:58 * foreign words and phrases 15:36:00 * enzyme names 15:36:01 * gene names 15:36:03 * genus and species 15:36:04 * unabbreviated dynamics in music 15:36:06 * rhyme schemes 15:36:07 Everything else should use and . (As the WCAG techniques tell us.) Authoring tools that don?t know better should assume the semantic elements were what was intended, since almost all of the time they will be correct. 15:36:24 reference Chicago Manual of Style (ala Matt) 15:39:11 test process: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/ctprocess.html 15:40:35 -Chris_Ridpath 15:40:40 -Don_Evans 15:41:11 add list to technique as proposed, make clear it is not a requirement. add additional elements from html spec. add pointer to chicago manual of style. 15:41:23 912 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0441.html 15:42:26 only for left to right language. 15:42:51 do we speak about forms in tables? a diff technique? 15:43:22 included in feedback from ibm. it is already a bugzilla issue. 15:44:16 there are cases where sometimes visually it is very obvious what goes into the field. 15:45:20 prompt says "month day year" and 3 elements, obvious visually. not obvious using screen reader. 15:45:40 needed labels for field but didn't want to use visual lable. 15:45:45 jim uses title. 15:45:51 in css could use display:hidden 15:46:36 action: propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms 15:46:50 action 9 = becky propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms 15:47:13 913 accepted 15:47:19 915 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0443.html 15:47:41 wrt 914 - is title an alternative way to provide text that we can experiment with 15:47:50 915 - as proposed, don't create fornow 15:48:04 leave it open, title is not reliable. 15:48:12 918 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0444.html 15:49:05 yes, placeholder. related to baseline as well as the function of the script. some require discussion, some dont. 15:49:31 want to avoid noscript tags taht say, "script decorative. text not needed" 15:49:48 922 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0445.html 15:50:24 isn't it a css thing? 15:52:03 color is attribute of font and basefont, deprecated. bgcolor deprecated. 15:53:19 since a lot of people are using these attributes, create a technique that points to gateway and css for color. 15:53:38 925 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0446.html 15:53:47 ednote, pointer to issue, leave issue open 15:54:58 -Michael_Cooper 15:54:59 -Ben 15:55:00 -Becky_Gibson 15:55:01 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended 15:55:02 Attendees were Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Becky_Gibson, Ben, Wendy, Tim_Boland, Don_Evans 15:56:59 zakim, bye 15:56:59 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 15:57:03 RRSAgent, make log world 16:06:01 RRSAgent, make log world 16:07:17 RRSAgent, bye 16:07:17 I see 9 open action items: 16:07:17 ACTION: wendy convert to xml and publish with friday's internal draft [1] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-34-09 16:07:17 ACTION: wendy add to css techniques as new 6.2, add issue to bugzilla about 60 pt font, add ednote about issue [2] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-50-36 16:07:17 ACTION: michael update issue 925 with pointer to thread and summary of isues [3] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T14-56-19 16:07:17 ACTION: becky investigate HPR support [4] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-00-59 16:07:17 ACTION: michael add ednote, update issue, point to issue from ednote [5] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-29 16:07:17 ACTION: becky to play with css to cause the alt attribute or embedded content to appear on screen and test with asst. techs for applet, embed, and object [6] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-07 16:07:17 ACTION: michael to add placeholder for a tech to display alt content of applet, embed, and object [7] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-22 16:07:17 ACTION: michael to add 903, 917 (flicker) 904, 916 (color) to diret accessibility tech [8] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-27-43 16:07:17 ACTION: becky propose techniques, add issue for invisble labels for forms [9] 16:07:17 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/09/01-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-36