19:07:10 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
19:07:26 <Norm> UK holiday
19:07:45 <Norm> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:07:45 <Zakim> On the phone I see Norm, Roy_Fielding, Chris, PaulCotton, TimBL, DanC
19:08:21 <DanC> q+ to comment on the agenda; my KeepPostRecords action was withdrawn in Ottawa
19:10:12 <timbl> RRSAgent, Pointer?
19:10:12 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/08/30-tagmem-irc#T19-10-12
19:10:12 <Norm> thank you, timbl 
19:11:04 <DanC> (formally, it's a problem that we don't have ftf records within 2 weeks of the meeting. but... too bad.)
19:11:56 <timbl> Norm: We have aproblem that we have no approved minutes of past calls, from even before the  face-face.
19:12:26 <timbl> Chris: for thr Jul 23rd one, I will send raw text to you.  (action continues)
19:12:29 <DanC> ack danc
19:12:29 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to comment on the agenda; my KeepPostRecords action was withdrawn in Ottawa
19:13:18 <timbl> http://dm93.org/z2001/KeepPostRecords
19:14:12 <timbl> The TAG in the f2f meeting decided to drop that action item, it reappears by mistake on this agenda.
19:14:37 <DanC> 2004-09-13 I'm available, though I take off the next day
19:14:44 <timbl> Call for 6th Sepetmber is Cancelled.
19:14:53 <timbl> Regrests fro 13th:  Chris
19:15:00 <timbl> Collolly is available.
19:15:16 <timbl> Basle meeting
19:15:35 <timbl> Roy:  Please see email.
19:15:55 <timbl> Roy: Who will chair the meeting, to the extent of setting the agenda.
19:16:09 <timbl> Norm: Stuart, I expect -- else I can take a stab at it.
19:16:18 <timbl> [Paul offers to help]
19:16:23 <timbl> 1.2 on the agenda
19:17:13 <Norm> timbl: there will be an appointment, but there's been pushback on filling the other vacancy
19:18:48 <timbl> PaulC: Suggest we push back to the AB
19:19:06 <timbl> .... Lauren had suggested the same thing, he thought to the AB.
19:19:16 <timbl> ..  Could we ask theAB?
19:19:18 <Norm> +1 to pushing back to the AB
19:19:25 <Roy> me too
19:19:29 <Chris> +1
19:19:35 <timbl> Norm:  let's ask the AB.
19:19:51 <timbl> ... the difference is the credit people get for the commitment they make.
19:20:14 <timbl> ACTION timbl push back to the AB asking their opinion.
19:21:01 <Norm> For 1.3, norm summarizes the mail from Ian: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Aug/0043.html
19:21:35 <timbl> """The Team has made progress on the issue of licensing
19:21:36 <timbl> obligations (if any) for TAG participants, but due to the
19:21:36 <timbl> August slowdown has not yet closed it. I expect we
19:21:36 <timbl> will close that issue soon and I'll bring the results
19:21:36 <timbl> back to the TAG. At that point the rest of the charter
19:21:37 <timbl> development can continue."""
19:21:39 <timbl> ------
19:21:43 <timbl> Agenda item 2
19:21:50 <timbl> 2.1 Approving the draft findinging
19:22:14 <timbl> Norm: I sent in a draft. I know Paul reveealed it to members of the XMLQ WG. Shall we make it public?
19:22:17 <Roy> +1 for making public
19:22:31 <timbl> Chris: I sent feedback, as did Henry [thompson]
19:23:00 <timbl> Norm: I will take that feedback into account before making it public.
19:23:11 <timbl> DanC: I won't review it until it is public.
19:23:23 <Chris> Overall it was very good
19:23:28 <timbl> Chris: I did send in criticism, but the overal l things is very good.
19:23:43 <Chris> approve publication
19:23:56 <timbl> RESOLVED:  The editors draft of the finding will be made public.
19:24:43 <Roy> s/2.1 Approving the draft findinging/2.1 Make xmlChunk draft finding public/
19:25:12 <Chris> are you objecting?
19:25:22 <DanC> Connolly abstaining. don't see why a group decision is in order.
19:25:35 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlChunkEquality.html
19:25:40 <timbl> --------------------
19:25:44 <timbl> List of open issues
19:26:07 <timbl> Norm:  I struggled a bit with organizing these as I left the f2f meeting.
19:26:38 <timbl> You seemed to get to a certain point (IRI27) and stop
19:26:44 <DanC> agenda + public-webarch-comments summary
19:26:50 <timbl> Paul: Yes, we ran out of energy there.
19:27:34 <timbl> DanC: There have been some comments on public-webarch-comments which I am prepared to summarize.
19:27:57 <timbl> Chris: I have a vague recollection of being asked to write down some minor "aha" moment.
19:28:21 <Norm> We're on 28
19:28:38 <timbl> .
19:28:41 <Roy> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=normal&closed=1#fragmentInXML-28
19:28:41 <timbl> IRI 27
19:28:42 <Chris> http://www.w3.org/2004/05/14-tag-summary.html#fragmentInXML-28
19:29:37 <timbl> Norm:  Please ignore items 3 and 4 on the agenda -- their inclusion is a mistake.
19:29:44 <timbl> ACTION CONINUES: Chris: http://www.w3.org/2004/05/14-tag-summary.html#fragmentInXML-28
19:29:57 <timbl> XMLprofile29
19:30:24 <Norm> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html
19:30:25 <Chris> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=normal&closed=1
19:31:18 <timbl> 29:  We agreed with the commenter and asked the core WG to go do it.
19:31:24 <Chris> ok try this view instead
19:31:26 <Chris> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=wg
19:31:32 <DanC> on issue 29, we asked the commentor if our decision was ok http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jan/0418.html
19:31:34 <timbl> Norm: I think I have an action in the core working group.
19:31:45 <Roy> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlProfiles-29
19:31:46 <timbl> Paul: But it isn't in the new Core WG charter.
19:32:00 <timbl> Paul: Announced 2003?!!
19:32:07 <timbl> DanC: Yes, 2003
19:32:41 <timbl> Norm: The reviced charter has expict deliverables which do *not* include this -- but it does appear in "Other work".
19:34:00 <timbl> Norm: The TAG told the corre wg to do it; the core started to look at it; the charter was getting revised, and was being revised in a way I didn't like and I may have lost track; the core wg does NOT have an action item now.
19:34:03 <Norm> ACTION: Norm to talk to the Core WG about what we should do about xmlProfiles-29
19:34:18 <timbl> IAs it does have it in "other work" in eth charter i will get them to do it.
19:34:38 <timbl> ACTION Norm: Get XML Core WG to take on XMLProfiles-29
19:34:46 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlProfiles-29
19:34:51 <timbl> .
19:34:54 <timbl> ____________
19:34:59 <paulc> http://www.w3.org/TR/xbc-use-cases/
19:35:10 <Norm> ACTION: Norm to add xbc use cases to binaryXML-30
19:35:12 <DanC> q+ to speak to TB's actions
19:35:15 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#binaryXML-30
19:35:39 <timbl> Paul: Chris, you wrote a txonomy f the problem space.
19:36:03 <timbl> Paul:  I wonder whether the 14 use casesin this dcouemnt cover all the cases you ennumerated.
19:36:19 <DanC> at a glance, http://www.w3.org/TR/xbc-use-cases/ is well done. I grok the TOC at a glance.
19:36:34 <timbl> Paul: There is space and time needs for compression, and other distinictions.
19:36:55 <DanC> XML Binary Characterization Use Cases
19:36:55 <DanC> W3C Working Draft 28 July 2004
19:37:05 <timbl> ACTION Chris:  Review the connection between the use cases and the taxomony on Chris's note
19:37:17 <Norm> q?
19:37:34 <Norm> ack danc
19:37:34 <Zakim> DanC, you wanted to speak to TB's actions
19:37:42 <timbl> Deadline for above action: 2004-09-30
19:37:55 <Chris> due date: before the tag f2f
19:38:37 <timbl> DanC:    There was an acttion on Tim Bray in this isses list. Can we withdrawn them?
19:38:48 <timbl> Paul: TimBray accepted it then dropped it.
19:39:05 <timbl> DanC: It is called "no decision, deferred".
19:39:19 <Chris> yes. someone else is doing the work
19:39:38 <timbl> Paul:  There is a planning WG -- we shoudl hold it until they have looked at teh problem.  That's what that means.
19:39:57 <timbl> danC: That should be called "Pending".
19:40:14 <Chris> i agree that tag issue state nomenclature is suboptimal
19:40:32 <timbl> ________________________
19:40:34 <timbl> 31
19:40:43 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#metadataInURI-31
19:40:57 <timbl> Paul: DaveO has an action item.
19:41:03 <timbl> Norm: So does Tuart.
19:41:57 <timbl> Tim: See recent mail suggesting one should encode version information in a URI. A good example of what not to do.
19:42:30 <timbl> Norm: Let's wait for stuart.  DaveO was going to send rationale for WSDL WG peeking inside a URI.
19:43:02 <timbl> ACTION Paul find out what happened to DaveO's action item there.
19:43:09 <timbl> ______________________________
19:43:11 <timbl> 32
19:43:19 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlIDSemantics-32
19:43:37 <Chris> q+ to request a change to the issue 
19:43:40 <timbl> Norm: We sent that off o the XML core WG, and it an explicit issue in the charter. the editros
19:43:51 <timbl> didn't have time so I took over editing.
19:44:25 <timbl> Chris: Can we change the background color of the finding to show it as approved.
19:44:27 <Chris> s/Draft finding from Chris Lilley/Approved finding from Chris Lilley
19:45:18 <timbl> _______________________________________
19:45:19 <timbl> 33
19:45:31 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#mixedUIXMLNamespace-33
19:46:04 <DanC> +1 point to workshop record from issue 33
19:46:12 <timbl> Chris:   A link should be made in the issue record to the workshop record.
19:46:24 <timbl> ... A WG will be spun up too.
19:46:41 <timbl> ... It is the AC discussion before AC review phase.
19:46:44 <DanC> The W3C Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Documents http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/summary
19:47:05 <Chris> thanks dan
19:47:15 <timbl> ACTION Norm update the issues list to point to that.
19:47:22 <timbl> ___________________________________
19:47:25 <timbl> 34
19:47:34 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlFunctions-34
19:47:43 <timbl> Norm: This is just sitting there.
19:48:00 <timbl> ... the last thing that happened was TimbL wrote a piece about it.
19:48:32 <timbl> DanC: GRDDL involved ointing from for example XMl documents to XSLT  transforms.  
19:48:52 <timbl> ...there is a similar proposal to use the XML stylesheet procesing instruction to do almost the same thing.
19:49:01 <timbl> ... which is relevant beacuse.
19:49:13 <timbl> ... I asked them why they used PI insead of a link.
19:49:28 <timbl> ... IThe question of "who goes first" wasimportant to that.
19:49:49 <timbl> Norm: One aspects of the TRIX proposal was that it works with more than XHTML.
19:50:18 <timbl> Chris: Some discission of whether GRDDL applies to only HxTML or all XML
19:50:30 <DanC> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xml
19:50:37 <DanC> xmlns:data-view="http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view#"
19:50:39 <timbl> DanC:  GRDDL applies to any XML, always has.
19:50:58 <DanC> s/always has/has for quite some time/
19:51:02 <timbl> ... It is *not* xHTML-specific.
19:51:08 <Chris> discussion was exclusively in context of XHTML, I asked for frequent clarifications
19:51:45 <DanC> TriX : RDF Triples in XML http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2004/HPL-2004-56.html
19:51:47 <timbl> norm: As a mechanism for talking about the interpretation of XML documents, I am a lot happier with this tyle with things we have done in the past.
19:52:18 <timbl> Norm:  There could be multiple style sheets happening in series maybe, (actually abusing the stylesheet PI)
19:53:04 <timbl> Tim: Did they flag a problem with GRDDL?
19:53:47 <timbl> DanC: They stop conflict between TRIX and an XSLT style sheet by using up that syntax slot so you can't get both.
19:54:16 <DanC> I think trix uses <?xml-stylesheet?> rather than an attr to avoid the "what if you have both?" question
19:57:40 <timbl> http://www.w3.org/2003/02/06-tag-summary.html#mixedNamespaceMeaning-13
19:57:50 <timbl> ^ decision to raise it.
19:58:52 <Norm> ack crhis
19:58:55 <Norm> ack chris
19:58:55 <Zakim> Chris, you wanted to request a change to the issue 
19:58:56 <Norm> ack danc
19:59:52 <timbl> ACTION timbl take another stab at specifying the problem 
20:00:21 <timbl> Daanc: Eg .... what happens if you do include and the xmls schema include.
20:00:41 <timbl> Should  not that test be in eth CR phasse of XINCLUDE?
20:01:27 <timbl> Naorm: include in schema has [schema-deopendent stuff]
20:01:44 <Chris> IIRC Oxygen implements XInclude
20:02:02 <Norm> libxml does
20:02:04 <DanC> # how does XInclude mix with XML Schema? XSLT? Dan Connolly (Monday, 30 August)  http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-xinclude-comments/2004Aug/0003.html
20:02:04 <Chris> sorry, oXygen
20:02:49 <timbl> Tim: My note was supposed to say that there is one logical way of looking at it.
20:03:11 <timbl> Norm: Test case:  
20:04:12 <timbl> ... An XSLT style sheet which inlcudes an XInclude element -- either the xinclude element is to be resolved first, or it would be XSLT is to produce an XIncldue document.
20:04:13 <Norm> I could say <xi:include>...</xi:include>
20:04:25 <Norm> Or I could say <xsl:element name="include" namespace="xi-uri">...
20:05:34 <timbl> Norm: I think that this should abmbiguous and left so and a sep. langauge shoudl be sued to specify of all the weays of processing it which should be used.
20:05:43 <timbl> Tim: I disgree, i think quite strongly.
20:06:29 <Chris> There is an xslt test suite fom Oasis. Apparently there are problems with it:
20:06:32 <Chris> http://www.biglist.com/lists/xsl-list/archives/200401/msg01222.html
20:06:52 <Chris> NIST also has an XSLT test suite
20:06:53 <Chris> http://xw2k.sdct.itl.nist.gov/xml/page5.html
20:07:13 <Chris> "The XSLT/XPath tests are of an atomic nature and have  been submitted to the OASIS XSLT/XPath Conformance Committee for inclusion in their official test suite.   Currently, there are over 200 tests that exercise various XSLT/XPATH features."
20:07:51 <Norm> timbl: It's important that things at the bottom be stable. The XInclude spec should be a lot more like a modification of the XML Recommendation; it is always interpreted exactly as it says.
20:08:32 <Norm> q+
20:09:16 <DanC> XSLT has sufficient quoting mojo
20:09:22 <Norm> XSLT *has the quoting*
20:10:12 <Norm> ack Norm
20:11:18 <Chris> I can see both sides - make XInclude a fundamental part of processing, and also that there is a need for flexible processing depending on what you want to do
20:13:44 <timbl> Or it should not, it should define a default expansion which   most specs will use, still allowing XSLT -like specs to add special processing, like quoting.
20:19:09 <Chris> I would be happy with a finding that points out boith sides of the issue
20:20:50 <timbl> AC TION Timbl: write that by f2f-10days.
20:20:55 <Norm> Review will continue starting with RDFinXHTML-35
20:21:03 <timbl> __________________________________
20:21:21 <timbl> DanC: Did you attempt to review the comment sin prepareing the agenda?
20:21:24 <timbl> Norm: No.
20:21:40 <timbl> DanC: I will try to bring the comments to his attention.
20:21:41 <timbl> .
20:21:50 <timbl> COMMENT ON public-webarch-comments
20:22:01 <timbl> danc: De-spamming is in progress, no visible progress.
20:22:13 <timbl> ... Dominique sent 3 piles of comments.
20:22:26 <timbl> ... Extensabilty, editorial resources ...
20:22:42 <timbl> .... let's deal wit comments as soon as we can.
20:22:52 <DanC> dom's editorials http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004JulSep/0033.html
20:22:58 <timbl> Norm: I will deal with the editorial pil eof Dom's comments.
20:23:11 <timbl> ACTION  NORM: deal with the editorial pil eof Dom's comments.
20:23:43 <timbl> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/
20:25:03 <Chris> what is the date?
20:27:34 <Norm> The bogus message is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004JulSep/0045.html
20:29:15 <Roy> [discussing comment from AP Meyer]
20:29:23 <Norm> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004JulSep/0046.html
20:30:36 <timbl> Roy: I would prefer not to use "agent".
20:30:51 <timbl> ... "component" is better IMHO.
20:31:09 <timbl> ... except that other people use "component" for all kinds of things.
20:32:30 <timbl> [Paul reads through the many qualified uses of the "agent" in the document]
20:33:16 <timbl> Paul: This should be in our work list.
20:34:11 <timbl> ADJOURN
20:34:19 <Zakim> -TimBL
20:34:20 <Zakim> -Norm
20:34:21 <Zakim> -DanC
20:34:22 <Zakim> -PaulCotton
20:34:28 <Zakim> -Roy_Fielding
20:34:33 <Roy> Roy has left #tagmem
20:39:28 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Chris, in TAG_Weekly()2:30PM
20:39:30 <Zakim> TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended
20:39:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Norm, Roy_Fielding, Chris, TimBL, PaulCotton, DanC
22:11:23 <DanC> DanC has left #tagmem
22:24:52 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tagmem