IRC log of tagmem on 2004-08-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:07:10 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tagmem

19:07:26 [Norm]

UK holiday

19:07:45 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

19:07:45 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, Roy_Fielding, Chris, PaulCotton, TimBL, DanC

19:08:21 [DanC]

q+ to comment on the agenda; my KeepPostRecords action was withdrawn in Ottawa

19:10:12 [timbl]

RRSAgent, Pointer?

19:10:12 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2004/08/30-tagmem-irc#T19-10-12

19:10:12 [Norm]

thank you, timbl

19:11:04 [DanC]

(formally, it's a problem that we don't have ftf records within 2 weeks of the meeting. but... too bad.)

19:11:56 [timbl]

Norm: We have aproblem that we have no approved minutes of past calls, from even before the face-face.

19:12:26 [timbl]

Chris: for thr Jul 23rd one, I will send raw text to you. (action continues)

19:12:29 [DanC]

ack danc

19:12:29 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to comment on the agenda; my KeepPostRecords action was withdrawn in Ottawa

19:13:18 [timbl]

http://dm93.org/z2001/KeepPostRecords

19:14:12 [timbl]

The TAG in the f2f meeting decided to drop that action item, it reappears by mistake on this agenda.

19:14:37 [DanC]

2004-09-13 I'm available, though I take off the next day

19:14:44 [timbl]

Call for 6th Sepetmber is Cancelled.

19:14:53 [timbl]

Regrests fro 13th: Chris

19:15:00 [timbl]

Collolly is available.

19:15:16 [timbl]

Basle meeting

19:15:35 [timbl]

Roy: Please see email.

19:15:55 [timbl]

Roy: Who will chair the meeting, to the extent of setting the agenda.

19:16:09 [timbl]

Norm: Stuart, I expect -- else I can take a stab at it.

19:16:18 [timbl]

[Paul offers to help]

19:16:23 [timbl]

1.2 on the agenda

19:17:13 [Norm]

timbl: there will be an appointment, but there's been pushback on filling the other vacancy

19:18:48 [timbl]

PaulC: Suggest we push back to the AB

19:19:06 [timbl]

.... Lauren had suggested the same thing, he thought to the AB.

19:19:16 [timbl]

.. Could we ask theAB?

19:19:18 [Norm]

+1 to pushing back to the AB

19:19:25 [Roy]

me too

19:19:29 [Chris]

+1

19:19:35 [timbl]

Norm: let's ask the AB.

19:19:51 [timbl]

... the difference is the credit people get for the commitment they make.

19:20:14 [timbl]

ACTION timbl push back to the AB asking their opinion.

19:21:01 [Norm]

For 1.3, norm summarizes the mail from Ian: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Aug/0043.html

19:21:35 [timbl]

"""The Team has made progress on the issue of licensing

19:21:36 [timbl]

obligations (if any) for TAG participants, but due to the

19:21:36 [timbl]

August slowdown has not yet closed it. I expect we

19:21:36 [timbl]

will close that issue soon and I'll bring the results

19:21:36 [timbl]

back to the TAG. At that point the rest of the charter

19:21:37 [timbl]

development can continue."""

19:21:39 [timbl]

------

19:21:43 [timbl]

Agenda item 2

19:21:50 [timbl]

2.1 Approving the draft findinging

19:22:14 [timbl]

Norm: I sent in a draft. I know Paul reveealed it to members of the XMLQ WG. Shall we make it public?

19:22:17 [Roy]

+1 for making public

19:22:31 [timbl]

Chris: I sent feedback, as did Henry [thompson]

19:23:00 [timbl]

Norm: I will take that feedback into account before making it public.

19:23:11 [timbl]

DanC: I won't review it until it is public.

19:23:23 [Chris]

Overall it was very good

19:23:28 [timbl]

Chris: I did send in criticism, but the overal l things is very good.

19:23:43 [Chris]

approve publication

19:23:56 [timbl]

RESOLVED: The editors draft of the finding will be made public.

19:24:43 [Roy]

s/2.1 Approving the draft findinging/2.1 Make xmlChunk draft finding public/

19:25:12 [Chris]

are you objecting?

19:25:22 [DanC]

Connolly abstaining. don't see why a group decision is in order.

19:25:35 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/xmlChunkEquality.html

19:25:40 [timbl]

--------------------

19:25:44 [timbl]

List of open issues

19:26:07 [timbl]

Norm: I struggled a bit with organizing these as I left the f2f meeting.

19:26:38 [timbl]

You seemed to get to a certain point (IRI27) and stop

19:26:44 [DanC]

agenda + public-webarch-comments summary

19:26:50 [timbl]

Paul: Yes, we ran out of energy there.

19:27:34 [timbl]

DanC: There have been some comments on public-webarch-comments which I am prepared to summarize.

19:27:57 [timbl]

Chris: I have a vague recollection of being asked to write down some minor "aha" moment.

19:28:21 [Norm]

We're on 28

19:28:38 [timbl]

.

19:28:41 [Roy]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=normal&closed=1#fragmentInXML-28

19:28:41 [timbl]

IRI 27

19:28:42 [Chris]

http://www.w3.org/2004/05/14-tag-summary.html#fragmentInXML-28

19:29:37 [timbl]

Norm: Please ignore items 3 and 4 on the agenda -- their inclusion is a mistake.

19:29:44 [timbl]

ACTION CONINUES: Chris: http://www.w3.org/2004/05/14-tag-summary.html#fragmentInXML-28

19:29:57 [timbl]

XMLprofile29

19:30:24 [Norm]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html

19:30:25 [Chris]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=normal&closed=1

19:31:18 [timbl]

29: We agreed with the commenter and asked the core WG to go do it.

19:31:24 [Chris]

ok try this view instead

19:31:26 [Chris]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html?view=wg

19:31:32 [DanC]

on issue 29, we asked the commentor if our decision was ok http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2003Jan/0418.html

19:31:34 [timbl]

Norm: I think I have an action in the core working group.

19:31:45 [Roy]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlProfiles-29

19:31:46 [timbl]

Paul: But it isn't in the new Core WG charter.

19:32:00 [timbl]

Paul: Announced 2003?!!

19:32:07 [timbl]

DanC: Yes, 2003

19:32:41 [timbl]

Norm: The reviced charter has expict deliverables which do *not* include this -- but it does appear in "Other work".

19:34:00 [timbl]

Norm: The TAG told the corre wg to do it; the core started to look at it; the charter was getting revised, and was being revised in a way I didn't like and I may have lost track; the core wg does NOT have an action item now.

19:34:03 [Norm]

ACTION: Norm to talk to the Core WG about what we should do about xmlProfiles-29

19:34:18 [timbl]

IAs it does have it in "other work" in eth charter i will get them to do it.

19:34:38 [timbl]

ACTION Norm: Get XML Core WG to take on XMLProfiles-29

19:34:46 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlProfiles-29

19:34:51 [timbl]

.

19:34:54 [timbl]

____________

19:34:59 [paulc]

http://www.w3.org/TR/xbc-use-cases/

19:35:10 [Norm]

ACTION: Norm to add xbc use cases to binaryXML-30

19:35:12 [DanC]

q+ to speak to TB's actions

19:35:15 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#binaryXML-30

19:35:39 [timbl]

Paul: Chris, you wrote a txonomy f the problem space.

19:36:03 [timbl]

Paul: I wonder whether the 14 use casesin this dcouemnt cover all the cases you ennumerated.

19:36:19 [DanC]

at a glance, http://www.w3.org/TR/xbc-use-cases/ is well done. I grok the TOC at a glance.

19:36:34 [timbl]

Paul: There is space and time needs for compression, and other distinictions.

19:36:55 [DanC]

XML Binary Characterization Use Cases

19:36:55 [DanC]

W3C Working Draft 28 July 2004

19:37:05 [timbl]

ACTION Chris: Review the connection between the use cases and the taxomony on Chris's note

19:37:17 [Norm]

q?

19:37:34 [Norm]

ack danc

19:37:34 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to speak to TB's actions

19:37:42 [timbl]

Deadline for above action: 2004-09-30

19:37:55 [Chris]

due date: before the tag f2f

19:38:37 [timbl]

DanC: There was an acttion on Tim Bray in this isses list. Can we withdrawn them?

19:38:48 [timbl]

Paul: TimBray accepted it then dropped it.

19:39:05 [timbl]

DanC: It is called "no decision, deferred".

19:39:19 [Chris]

yes. someone else is doing the work

19:39:38 [timbl]

Paul: There is a planning WG -- we shoudl hold it until they have looked at teh problem. That's what that means.

19:39:57 [timbl]

danC: That should be called "Pending".

19:40:14 [Chris]

i agree that tag issue state nomenclature is suboptimal

19:40:32 [timbl]

________________________

19:40:34 [timbl]

31

19:40:43 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#metadataInURI-31

19:40:57 [timbl]

Paul: DaveO has an action item.

19:41:03 [timbl]

Norm: So does Tuart.

19:41:57 [timbl]

Tim: See recent mail suggesting one should encode version information in a URI. A good example of what not to do.

19:42:30 [timbl]

Norm: Let's wait for stuart. DaveO was going to send rationale for WSDL WG peeking inside a URI.

19:43:02 [timbl]

ACTION Paul find out what happened to DaveO's action item there.

19:43:09 [timbl]

______________________________

19:43:11 [timbl]

32

19:43:19 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlIDSemantics-32

19:43:37 [Chris]

q+ to request a change to the issue

19:43:40 [timbl]

Norm: We sent that off o the XML core WG, and it an explicit issue in the charter. the editros

19:43:51 [timbl]

didn't have time so I took over editing.

19:44:25 [timbl]

Chris: Can we change the background color of the finding to show it as approved.

19:44:27 [Chris]

s/Draft finding from Chris Lilley/Approved finding from Chris Lilley

19:45:18 [timbl]

_______________________________________

19:45:19 [timbl]

33

19:45:31 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#mixedUIXMLNamespace-33

19:46:04 [DanC]

+1 point to workshop record from issue 33

19:46:12 [timbl]

Chris: A link should be made in the issue record to the workshop record.

19:46:24 [timbl]

... A WG will be spun up too.

19:46:41 [timbl]

... It is the AC discussion before AC review phase.

19:46:44 [DanC]

The W3C Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Documents http://www.w3.org/2004/04/webapps-cdf-ws/summary

19:47:05 [Chris]

thanks dan

19:47:15 [timbl]

ACTION Norm update the issues list to point to that.

19:47:22 [timbl]

___________________________________

19:47:25 [timbl]

34

19:47:34 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#xmlFunctions-34

19:47:43 [timbl]

Norm: This is just sitting there.

19:48:00 [timbl]

... the last thing that happened was TimbL wrote a piece about it.

19:48:32 [timbl]

DanC: GRDDL involved ointing from for example XMl documents to XSLT transforms.

19:48:52 [timbl]

...there is a similar proposal to use the XML stylesheet procesing instruction to do almost the same thing.

19:49:01 [timbl]

... which is relevant beacuse.

19:49:13 [timbl]

... I asked them why they used PI insead of a link.

19:49:28 [timbl]

... IThe question of "who goes first" wasimportant to that.

19:49:49 [timbl]

Norm: One aspects of the TRIX proposal was that it works with more than XHTML.

19:50:18 [timbl]

Chris: Some discission of whether GRDDL applies to only HxTML or all XML

19:50:30 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/#grddl-xml

19:50:37 [DanC]

xmlns:data-view="http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view#"

19:50:39 [timbl]

DanC: GRDDL applies to any XML, always has.

19:50:58 [DanC]

s/always has/has for quite some time/

19:51:02 [timbl]

... It is *not* xHTML-specific.

19:51:08 [Chris]

discussion was exclusively in context of XHTML, I asked for frequent clarifications

19:51:45 [DanC]

TriX : RDF Triples in XML http://www.hpl.hp.com/techreports/2004/HPL-2004-56.html

19:51:47 [timbl]

norm: As a mechanism for talking about the interpretation of XML documents, I am a lot happier with this tyle with things we have done in the past.

19:52:18 [timbl]

Norm: There could be multiple style sheets happening in series maybe, (actually abusing the stylesheet PI)

19:53:04 [timbl]

Tim: Did they flag a problem with GRDDL?

19:53:47 [timbl]

DanC: They stop conflict between TRIX and an XSLT style sheet by using up that syntax slot so you can't get both.

19:54:16 [DanC]

I think trix uses <?xml-stylesheet?> rather than an attr to avoid the "what if you have both?" question

19:57:40 [timbl]

http://www.w3.org/2003/02/06-tag-summary.html#mixedNamespaceMeaning-13

19:57:50 [timbl]

^ decision to raise it.

19:58:52 [Norm]

ack crhis

19:58:55 [Norm]

ack chris

19:58:55 [Zakim]

Chris, you wanted to request a change to the issue

19:58:56 [Norm]

ack danc

19:59:52 [timbl]

ACTION timbl take another stab at specifying the problem

20:00:21 [timbl]

Daanc: Eg .... what happens if you do include and the xmls schema include.

20:00:41 [timbl]

Should not that test be in eth CR phasse of XINCLUDE?

20:01:27 [timbl]

Naorm: include in schema has [schema-deopendent stuff]

20:01:44 [Chris]

IIRC Oxygen implements XInclude

20:02:02 [Norm]

libxml does

20:02:04 [DanC]

# how does XInclude mix with XML Schema? XSLT? Dan Connolly (Monday, 30 August) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-xinclude-comments/2004Aug/0003.html

20:02:04 [Chris]

sorry, oXygen

20:02:49 [timbl]

Tim: My note was supposed to say that there is one logical way of looking at it.

20:03:11 [timbl]

Norm: Test case:

20:04:12 [timbl]

... An XSLT style sheet which inlcudes an XInclude element -- either the xinclude element is to be resolved first, or it would be XSLT is to produce an XIncldue document.

20:04:13 [Norm]

I could say <xi:include>...</xi:include>

20:04:25 [Norm]

Or I could say <xsl:element name="include" namespace="xi-uri">...

20:05:34 [timbl]

Norm: I think that this should abmbiguous and left so and a sep. langauge shoudl be sued to specify of all the weays of processing it which should be used.

20:05:43 [timbl]

Tim: I disgree, i think quite strongly.

20:06:29 [Chris]

There is an xslt test suite fom Oasis. Apparently there are problems with it:

20:06:32 [Chris]

http://www.biglist.com/lists/xsl-list/archives/200401/msg01222.html

20:06:52 [Chris]

NIST also has an XSLT test suite

20:06:53 [Chris]

http://xw2k.sdct.itl.nist.gov/xml/page5.html

20:07:13 [Chris]

"The XSLT/XPath tests are of an atomic nature and have been submitted to the OASIS XSLT/XPath Conformance Committee for inclusion in their official test suite. Currently, there are over 200 tests that exercise various XSLT/XPATH features."

20:07:51 [Norm]

timbl: It's important that things at the bottom be stable. The XInclude spec should be a lot more like a modification of the XML Recommendation; it is always interpreted exactly as it says.

20:08:32 [Norm]

q+

20:09:16 [DanC]

XSLT has sufficient quoting mojo

20:09:22 [Norm]

XSLT *has the quoting*

20:10:12 [Norm]

ack Norm

20:11:18 [Chris]

I can see both sides - make XInclude a fundamental part of processing, and also that there is a need for flexible processing depending on what you want to do

20:13:44 [timbl]

Or it should not, it should define a default expansion which most specs will use, still allowing XSLT -like specs to add special processing, like quoting.

20:19:09 [Chris]

I would be happy with a finding that points out boith sides of the issue

20:20:50 [timbl]

AC TION Timbl: write that by f2f-10days.

20:20:55 [Norm]

Review will continue starting with RDFinXHTML-35

20:21:03 [timbl]

__________________________________

20:21:21 [timbl]

DanC: Did you attempt to review the comment sin prepareing the agenda?

20:21:24 [timbl]

Norm: No.

20:21:40 [timbl]

DanC: I will try to bring the comments to his attention.

20:21:41 [timbl]

.

20:21:50 [timbl]

COMMENT ON public-webarch-comments

20:22:01 [timbl]

danc: De-spamming is in progress, no visible progress.

20:22:13 [timbl]

... Dominique sent 3 piles of comments.

20:22:26 [timbl]

... Extensabilty, editorial resources ...

20:22:42 [timbl]

.... let's deal wit comments as soon as we can.

20:22:52 [DanC]

dom's editorials http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004JulSep/0033.html

20:22:58 [timbl]

Norm: I will deal with the editorial pil eof Dom's comments.

20:23:11 [timbl]

ACTION NORM: deal with the editorial pil eof Dom's comments.

20:23:43 [timbl]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/

20:25:03 [Chris]

what is the date?

20:27:34 [Norm]

The bogus message is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004JulSep/0045.html

20:29:15 [Roy]

[discussing comment from AP Meyer]

20:29:23 [Norm]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webarch-comments/2004JulSep/0046.html

20:30:36 [timbl]

Roy: I would prefer not to use "agent".

20:30:51 [timbl]

... "component" is better IMHO.

20:31:09 [timbl]

... except that other people use "component" for all kinds of things.

20:32:30 [timbl]

[Paul reads through the many qualified uses of the "agent" in the document]

20:33:16 [timbl]

Paul: This should be in our work list.

20:34:11 [timbl]

ADJOURN

20:34:19 [Zakim]

-TimBL

20:34:20 [Zakim]

-Norm

20:34:21 [Zakim]

-DanC

20:34:22 [Zakim]

-PaulCotton

20:34:28 [Zakim]

-Roy_Fielding

20:34:33 [Roy]

Roy has left #tagmem

20:39:28 [Zakim]

disconnecting the lone participant, Chris, in TAG_Weekly()2:30PM

20:39:30 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended

20:39:31 [Zakim]

Attendees were Norm, Roy_Fielding, Chris, TimBL, PaulCotton, DanC

22:11:23 [DanC]

DanC has left #tagmem

22:24:52 [Zakim]

Zakim has left #tagmem