IRC log of tagmem on 2004-08-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:07:10 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #tagmem
19:07:26 [Norm]
UK holiday
19:07:45 [Norm]
zakim, who's on the phone?
19:07:45 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Norm, Roy_Fielding, Chris, PaulCotton, TimBL, DanC
19:08:21 [DanC]
q+ to comment on the agenda; my KeepPostRecords action was withdrawn in Ottawa
19:10:12 [timbl]
RRSAgent, Pointer?
19:10:12 [RRSAgent]
19:10:12 [Norm]
thank you, timbl
19:11:04 [DanC]
(formally, it's a problem that we don't have ftf records within 2 weeks of the meeting. but... too bad.)
19:11:56 [timbl]
Norm: We have aproblem that we have no approved minutes of past calls, from even before the face-face.
19:12:26 [timbl]
Chris: for thr Jul 23rd one, I will send raw text to you. (action continues)
19:12:29 [DanC]
ack danc
19:12:29 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to comment on the agenda; my KeepPostRecords action was withdrawn in Ottawa
19:13:18 [timbl]
19:14:12 [timbl]
The TAG in the f2f meeting decided to drop that action item, it reappears by mistake on this agenda.
19:14:37 [DanC]
2004-09-13 I'm available, though I take off the next day
19:14:44 [timbl]
Call for 6th Sepetmber is Cancelled.
19:14:53 [timbl]
Regrests fro 13th: Chris
19:15:00 [timbl]
Collolly is available.
19:15:16 [timbl]
Basle meeting
19:15:35 [timbl]
Roy: Please see email.
19:15:55 [timbl]
Roy: Who will chair the meeting, to the extent of setting the agenda.
19:16:09 [timbl]
Norm: Stuart, I expect -- else I can take a stab at it.
19:16:18 [timbl]
[Paul offers to help]
19:16:23 [timbl]
1.2 on the agenda
19:17:13 [Norm]
timbl: there will be an appointment, but there's been pushback on filling the other vacancy
19:18:48 [timbl]
PaulC: Suggest we push back to the AB
19:19:06 [timbl]
.... Lauren had suggested the same thing, he thought to the AB.
19:19:16 [timbl]
.. Could we ask theAB?
19:19:18 [Norm]
+1 to pushing back to the AB
19:19:25 [Roy]
me too
19:19:29 [Chris]
19:19:35 [timbl]
Norm: let's ask the AB.
19:19:51 [timbl]
... the difference is the credit people get for the commitment they make.
19:20:14 [timbl]
ACTION timbl push back to the AB asking their opinion.
19:21:01 [Norm]
For 1.3, norm summarizes the mail from Ian:
19:21:35 [timbl]
"""The Team has made progress on the issue of licensing
19:21:36 [timbl]
obligations (if any) for TAG participants, but due to the
19:21:36 [timbl]
August slowdown has not yet closed it. I expect we
19:21:36 [timbl]
will close that issue soon and I'll bring the results
19:21:36 [timbl]
back to the TAG. At that point the rest of the charter
19:21:37 [timbl]
development can continue."""
19:21:39 [timbl]
19:21:43 [timbl]
Agenda item 2
19:21:50 [timbl]
2.1 Approving the draft findinging
19:22:14 [timbl]
Norm: I sent in a draft. I know Paul reveealed it to members of the XMLQ WG. Shall we make it public?
19:22:17 [Roy]
+1 for making public
19:22:31 [timbl]
Chris: I sent feedback, as did Henry [thompson]
19:23:00 [timbl]
Norm: I will take that feedback into account before making it public.
19:23:11 [timbl]
DanC: I won't review it until it is public.
19:23:23 [Chris]
Overall it was very good
19:23:28 [timbl]
Chris: I did send in criticism, but the overal l things is very good.
19:23:43 [Chris]
approve publication
19:23:56 [timbl]
RESOLVED: The editors draft of the finding will be made public.
19:24:43 [Roy]
s/2.1 Approving the draft findinging/2.1 Make xmlChunk draft finding public/
19:25:12 [Chris]
are you objecting?
19:25:22 [DanC]
Connolly abstaining. don't see why a group decision is in order.
19:25:35 [timbl]
19:25:40 [timbl]
19:25:44 [timbl]
List of open issues
19:26:07 [timbl]
Norm: I struggled a bit with organizing these as I left the f2f meeting.
19:26:38 [timbl]
You seemed to get to a certain point (IRI27) and stop
19:26:44 [DanC]
agenda + public-webarch-comments summary
19:26:50 [timbl]
Paul: Yes, we ran out of energy there.
19:27:34 [timbl]
DanC: There have been some comments on public-webarch-comments which I am prepared to summarize.
19:27:57 [timbl]
Chris: I have a vague recollection of being asked to write down some minor "aha" moment.
19:28:21 [Norm]
We're on 28
19:28:38 [timbl]
19:28:41 [Roy]
19:28:41 [timbl]
IRI 27
19:28:42 [Chris]
19:29:37 [timbl]
Norm: Please ignore items 3 and 4 on the agenda -- their inclusion is a mistake.
19:29:44 [timbl]
19:29:57 [timbl]
19:30:24 [Norm]
19:30:25 [Chris]
19:31:18 [timbl]
29: We agreed with the commenter and asked the core WG to go do it.
19:31:24 [Chris]
ok try this view instead
19:31:26 [Chris]
19:31:32 [DanC]
on issue 29, we asked the commentor if our decision was ok
19:31:34 [timbl]
Norm: I think I have an action in the core working group.
19:31:45 [Roy]
19:31:46 [timbl]
Paul: But it isn't in the new Core WG charter.
19:32:00 [timbl]
Paul: Announced 2003?!!
19:32:07 [timbl]
DanC: Yes, 2003
19:32:41 [timbl]
Norm: The reviced charter has expict deliverables which do *not* include this -- but it does appear in "Other work".
19:34:00 [timbl]
Norm: The TAG told the corre wg to do it; the core started to look at it; the charter was getting revised, and was being revised in a way I didn't like and I may have lost track; the core wg does NOT have an action item now.
19:34:03 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to talk to the Core WG about what we should do about xmlProfiles-29
19:34:18 [timbl]
IAs it does have it in "other work" in eth charter i will get them to do it.
19:34:38 [timbl]
ACTION Norm: Get XML Core WG to take on XMLProfiles-29
19:34:46 [timbl]
19:34:51 [timbl]
19:34:54 [timbl]
19:34:59 [paulc]
19:35:10 [Norm]
ACTION: Norm to add xbc use cases to binaryXML-30
19:35:12 [DanC]
q+ to speak to TB's actions
19:35:15 [timbl]
19:35:39 [timbl]
Paul: Chris, you wrote a txonomy f the problem space.
19:36:03 [timbl]
Paul: I wonder whether the 14 use casesin this dcouemnt cover all the cases you ennumerated.
19:36:19 [DanC]
at a glance, is well done. I grok the TOC at a glance.
19:36:34 [timbl]
Paul: There is space and time needs for compression, and other distinictions.
19:36:55 [DanC]
XML Binary Characterization Use Cases
19:36:55 [DanC]
W3C Working Draft 28 July 2004
19:37:05 [timbl]
ACTION Chris: Review the connection between the use cases and the taxomony on Chris's note
19:37:17 [Norm]
19:37:34 [Norm]
ack danc
19:37:34 [Zakim]
DanC, you wanted to speak to TB's actions
19:37:42 [timbl]
Deadline for above action: 2004-09-30
19:37:55 [Chris]
due date: before the tag f2f
19:38:37 [timbl]
DanC: There was an acttion on Tim Bray in this isses list. Can we withdrawn them?
19:38:48 [timbl]
Paul: TimBray accepted it then dropped it.
19:39:05 [timbl]
DanC: It is called "no decision, deferred".
19:39:19 [Chris]
yes. someone else is doing the work
19:39:38 [timbl]
Paul: There is a planning WG -- we shoudl hold it until they have looked at teh problem. That's what that means.
19:39:57 [timbl]
danC: That should be called "Pending".
19:40:14 [Chris]
i agree that tag issue state nomenclature is suboptimal
19:40:32 [timbl]
19:40:34 [timbl]
19:40:43 [timbl]
19:40:57 [timbl]
Paul: DaveO has an action item.
19:41:03 [timbl]
Norm: So does Tuart.
19:41:57 [timbl]
Tim: See recent mail suggesting one should encode version information in a URI. A good example of what not to do.
19:42:30 [timbl]
Norm: Let's wait for stuart. DaveO was going to send rationale for WSDL WG peeking inside a URI.
19:43:02 [timbl]
ACTION Paul find out what happened to DaveO's action item there.
19:43:09 [timbl]
19:43:11 [timbl]
19:43:19 [timbl]
19:43:37 [Chris]
q+ to request a change to the issue
19:43:40 [timbl]
Norm: We sent that off o the XML core WG, and it an explicit issue in the charter. the editros
19:43:51 [timbl]
didn't have time so I took over editing.
19:44:25 [timbl]
Chris: Can we change the background color of the finding to show it as approved.
19:44:27 [Chris]
s/Draft finding from Chris Lilley/Approved finding from Chris Lilley
19:45:18 [timbl]
19:45:19 [timbl]
19:45:31 [timbl]
19:46:04 [DanC]
+1 point to workshop record from issue 33
19:46:12 [timbl]
Chris: A link should be made in the issue record to the workshop record.
19:46:24 [timbl]
... A WG will be spun up too.
19:46:41 [timbl]
... It is the AC discussion before AC review phase.
19:46:44 [DanC]
The W3C Workshop on Web Applications and Compound Documents
19:47:05 [Chris]
thanks dan
19:47:15 [timbl]
ACTION Norm update the issues list to point to that.
19:47:22 [timbl]
19:47:25 [timbl]
19:47:34 [timbl]
19:47:43 [timbl]
Norm: This is just sitting there.
19:48:00 [timbl]
... the last thing that happened was TimbL wrote a piece about it.
19:48:32 [timbl]
DanC: GRDDL involved ointing from for example XMl documents to XSLT transforms.
19:48:52 [timbl]
...there is a similar proposal to use the XML stylesheet procesing instruction to do almost the same thing.
19:49:01 [timbl]
... which is relevant beacuse.
19:49:13 [timbl]
... I asked them why they used PI insead of a link.
19:49:28 [timbl]
... IThe question of "who goes first" wasimportant to that.
19:49:49 [timbl]
Norm: One aspects of the TRIX proposal was that it works with more than XHTML.
19:50:18 [timbl]
Chris: Some discission of whether GRDDL applies to only HxTML or all XML
19:50:30 [DanC]
19:50:37 [DanC]
19:50:39 [timbl]
DanC: GRDDL applies to any XML, always has.
19:50:58 [DanC]
s/always has/has for quite some time/
19:51:02 [timbl]
... It is *not* xHTML-specific.
19:51:08 [Chris]
discussion was exclusively in context of XHTML, I asked for frequent clarifications
19:51:45 [DanC]
TriX : RDF Triples in XML
19:51:47 [timbl]
norm: As a mechanism for talking about the interpretation of XML documents, I am a lot happier with this tyle with things we have done in the past.
19:52:18 [timbl]
Norm: There could be multiple style sheets happening in series maybe, (actually abusing the stylesheet PI)
19:53:04 [timbl]
Tim: Did they flag a problem with GRDDL?
19:53:47 [timbl]
DanC: They stop conflict between TRIX and an XSLT style sheet by using up that syntax slot so you can't get both.
19:54:16 [DanC]
I think trix uses <?xml-stylesheet?> rather than an attr to avoid the "what if you have both?" question
19:57:40 [timbl]
19:57:50 [timbl]
^ decision to raise it.
19:58:52 [Norm]
ack crhis
19:58:55 [Norm]
ack chris
19:58:55 [Zakim]
Chris, you wanted to request a change to the issue
19:58:56 [Norm]
ack danc
19:59:52 [timbl]
ACTION timbl take another stab at specifying the problem
20:00:21 [timbl]
Daanc: Eg .... what happens if you do include and the xmls schema include.
20:00:41 [timbl]
Should not that test be in eth CR phasse of XINCLUDE?
20:01:27 [timbl]
Naorm: include in schema has [schema-deopendent stuff]
20:01:44 [Chris]
IIRC Oxygen implements XInclude
20:02:02 [Norm]
libxml does
20:02:04 [DanC]
# how does XInclude mix with XML Schema? XSLT? Dan Connolly (Monday, 30 August)
20:02:04 [Chris]
sorry, oXygen
20:02:49 [timbl]
Tim: My note was supposed to say that there is one logical way of looking at it.
20:03:11 [timbl]
Norm: Test case:
20:04:12 [timbl]
... An XSLT style sheet which inlcudes an XInclude element -- either the xinclude element is to be resolved first, or it would be XSLT is to produce an XIncldue document.
20:04:13 [Norm]
I could say <xi:include>...</xi:include>
20:04:25 [Norm]
Or I could say <xsl:element name="include" namespace="xi-uri">...
20:05:34 [timbl]
Norm: I think that this should abmbiguous and left so and a sep. langauge shoudl be sued to specify of all the weays of processing it which should be used.
20:05:43 [timbl]
Tim: I disgree, i think quite strongly.
20:06:29 [Chris]
There is an xslt test suite fom Oasis. Apparently there are problems with it:
20:06:32 [Chris]
20:06:52 [Chris]
NIST also has an XSLT test suite
20:06:53 [Chris]
20:07:13 [Chris]
"The XSLT/XPath tests are of an atomic nature and have been submitted to the OASIS XSLT/XPath Conformance Committee for inclusion in their official test suite. Currently, there are over 200 tests that exercise various XSLT/XPATH features."
20:07:51 [Norm]
timbl: It's important that things at the bottom be stable. The XInclude spec should be a lot more like a modification of the XML Recommendation; it is always interpreted exactly as it says.
20:08:32 [Norm]
20:09:16 [DanC]
XSLT has sufficient quoting mojo
20:09:22 [Norm]
XSLT *has the quoting*
20:10:12 [Norm]
ack Norm
20:11:18 [Chris]
I can see both sides - make XInclude a fundamental part of processing, and also that there is a need for flexible processing depending on what you want to do
20:13:44 [timbl]
Or it should not, it should define a default expansion which most specs will use, still allowing XSLT -like specs to add special processing, like quoting.
20:19:09 [Chris]
I would be happy with a finding that points out boith sides of the issue
20:20:50 [timbl]
AC TION Timbl: write that by f2f-10days.
20:20:55 [Norm]
Review will continue starting with RDFinXHTML-35
20:21:03 [timbl]
20:21:21 [timbl]
DanC: Did you attempt to review the comment sin prepareing the agenda?
20:21:24 [timbl]
Norm: No.
20:21:40 [timbl]
DanC: I will try to bring the comments to his attention.
20:21:41 [timbl]
20:21:50 [timbl]
COMMENT ON public-webarch-comments
20:22:01 [timbl]
danc: De-spamming is in progress, no visible progress.
20:22:13 [timbl]
... Dominique sent 3 piles of comments.
20:22:26 [timbl]
... Extensabilty, editorial resources ...
20:22:42 [timbl]
.... let's deal wit comments as soon as we can.
20:22:52 [DanC]
dom's editorials
20:22:58 [timbl]
Norm: I will deal with the editorial pil eof Dom's comments.
20:23:11 [timbl]
ACTION NORM: deal with the editorial pil eof Dom's comments.
20:23:43 [timbl]
20:25:03 [Chris]
what is the date?
20:27:34 [Norm]
The bogus message is
20:29:15 [Roy]
[discussing comment from AP Meyer]
20:29:23 [Norm]
20:30:36 [timbl]
Roy: I would prefer not to use "agent".
20:30:51 [timbl]
... "component" is better IMHO.
20:31:09 [timbl]
... except that other people use "component" for all kinds of things.
20:32:30 [timbl]
[Paul reads through the many qualified uses of the "agent" in the document]
20:33:16 [timbl]
Paul: This should be in our work list.
20:34:11 [timbl]
20:34:19 [Zakim]
20:34:20 [Zakim]
20:34:21 [Zakim]
20:34:22 [Zakim]
20:34:28 [Zakim]
20:34:33 [Roy]
Roy has left #tagmem
20:39:28 [Zakim]
disconnecting the lone participant, Chris, in TAG_Weekly()2:30PM
20:39:30 [Zakim]
TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended
20:39:31 [Zakim]
Attendees were Norm, Roy_Fielding, Chris, TimBL, PaulCotton, DanC
22:11:23 [DanC]
DanC has left #tagmem
22:24:52 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #tagmem