13:59:28 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:00:02 ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag 14:00:16 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started 14:00:23 +Michael_Cooper 14:00:25 zakim, I am Michael_Cooper 14:00:25 ok, Michael, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper 14:00:49 nabe has joined #wai-wcag 14:00:57 +Chris_Ridpath 14:01:21 +??P8 14:01:26 +Alex_Li 14:01:39 zakim, ??P8 is David_MacDonald 14:01:39 +David_MacDonald; got it 14:01:55 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 14:02:35 +??P12 14:02:55 zakim, ??P12 is Takayuki_Watanabe 14:02:58 +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it 14:03:02 +Becky_Gibson 14:03:26 +John_Slatin 14:03:47 zakim, I am Takayuki_Watanabe 14:03:47 ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuki_Watanabe 14:03:57 +Wendy 14:04:29 wendy has joined #wai-wcag 14:05:10 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:05:10 On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, David_MacDonald, Alex_Li, Takayuki_Watanabe, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Wendy 14:05:53 +[Microsoft] 14:06:37 zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis 14:06:37 +Jenae_Andershonis; got it 14:08:11 Topic: Techniques proposals 14:08:42 Gateway, John: has not gone to list as proposal. still working on. 14:08:59 goal: to have draft to list as proposal by end of friday. 14:09:16 have not received feedback on 1.1 from 30 july draft. 14:10:23 mc: want to discuss anything? 14:11:14 js: purpose of gateway is to set up use of other technologies, would like people to take a look where mention other technologies (e.g., svg, mathml) 14:11:24 +??P26 14:11:46 zakim, ??P26 is Lisa_Seeman 14:11:46 +Lisa_Seeman; got it 14:12:00 js: secondly, in general, is it making sense and fulfilling the purpose/role you had anticipated/expected for gateway 14:12:32 js: there is material in the 30 july draft that needs reviewing. there is also a proposal that will be coming on friday. 14:20:40 CSS, Wendy: need results of testing from user agents (e.g. support for xx-small to xx-large) before know how to move forward. will approach uawg about testing. found a test file. wonder about how it *should* work in a screen reader. 14:22:15 wac sent requests for review/contributions to variety of css developers 14:24:07 bg looked up image replacement thread. tom gilmore found a way to use images of text and have equivalents that screen readers will pick up. 14:25:56 action: bg send proposal to list re: image replacement technique 14:26:23 HTML, Michael: went through techniques that chris submitted and created proposals around them. 14:26:32 mc with 6, decided they were gateway techniques not html. 14:28:36 mc after incorporated into gateway, may come back to html techniques (after we have the structure) 14:29:11 js issue with granularity of gateway techniques in relation to the tech-specific. 14:29:48 js tend to think in terms of present the issues/general considerations in connection w/a particular guideline then break those into categories and then funnel out to tech-specifics. 14:30:30 js might be a general thing about link text or several places in gateway to talk about. but, don't think we're all operating under the same assumptions wrt gateway. 14:30:34 ack David 14:30:35 s/gateway/granularity 14:31:11 mc a gateway tech to talk about clear link text. in html: when creating area, "follow this gateway technique" 14:31:41 dmd some people only read techniques. it puts a burden on us to make the integration in such a way that they get the interconnections or lose things in the shuffle. 14:31:54 dmd be careful when moving critical information to the gateway. 14:32:17 js how do we deal with things where multiple technologies are involved or required to make one thing happen. 14:32:35 js easy to imagine things where to do something you need html, css, and scripting at a minimum. 14:32:48 js since those live in different documents, how make sure they all get pulled together? 14:32:55 js e.g., zooming images. 14:33:23 js for 1.3, showing the structure of graphical material, can do that in svg. zooming would allow you to get at the detail. 14:34:45 ls xsl can pull in different documents, it can be an entry point and apply diff xsl. 14:35:08 mc can make the connections in the xml documents, less clear on how to present to people. 14:37:06 wac think some of this will be tied together in the scripting techniques. matt may recruited several scripting people to the mailing list. has promised a first internal draft by 10 sept. 14:37:48 mc for other of chris' submissions, some were obviously/easy to make into techniques. others were related to wcag 1.0 guidelines. some i combined concepts. 14:38:06 mc e.g., "make sure plug-ins are directly accessible" same with color and flicker. 14:38:23 mc those will need to point to guidelines or gateway techniques 14:39:05 mc html techs can't say too much about plug-ins, because they are not html. 14:39:16 js perhaps this is where the gateway can pull together? it can talk about plug-ins 14:39:36 js gateway can say, this (html) is not sufficient on its own 14:40:06 wac then in resources, point to flash or java techniques (at macromedia or sun or ibm) 14:41:26 wac similar issue with multimedia. in gateway we'll say that captions need to be provided, but point off to real/quicktime/smil etc for *how* to provide the captions. 14:41:35 js then there are issues with the player themselves. 14:41:49 mc our techniques have to speak to ways that do work 14:42:07 mc w/applets, say "better to use plug-in than applet viewer" where do we say that? 14:43:38 wac display user agent data in gateway or html techs? perhaps both 14:43:47 mc "plug-ins" only apply to html? 14:44:05 wac mixed namespaces, not sure called "plug-in" but need code that can interpret 14:44:18 js 508 says "if need 3rd party s/w to render..." provide a link 14:44:30 mc jw has talked about "accessible viewer" 14:44:43 mc decided not to bump plug-ins off my plate, but may bump parts to gateway 14:45:27 mc combined 4 techniques about presentational elements (b, i, basefont, font). propose that we add those to a list of html elements that should be replaced with css. 14:45:44 mc an existing technique, but no list of elements yet. propose these are the beginning of the list. 14:46:14 mc "title attribute for object" - my feeling, we dont' make title mandatory for most elements, therefore shouldn't do it here. 14:46:33 cr i wll send a message to the list. need to figure out where that one came from. 14:46:37 #915 14:47:18 mc "mandatory h1" - require that the first heading on a page be an h1. this is used in the french accessibility guidelines. unsure if wcag would require. 14:47:54 mc several approaches: 1. don't require 2. if using headings, start with h1 3. if require, then also require that be the first one on the page 4. or only that it is is present 14:48:18 mc could have h2 indicating navigation then h1 in the body 14:48:24 mc therefore, not always first one 14:48:57 ls document could be part of set of documents 14:49:12 mc if requiring h1s, require only one or are multiple ok? 14:49:27 ls if something is part of a book, could say "title page elsewhere" 14:51:30 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/global.html#edef-H1 14:52:15 http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/sgml/dtd.html 14:55:45 http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-structural.html#edef_structural_heading 14:56:07 in xhtml 2 use h/section 14:56:35 mc braillenet may use h1 to indicate start of content (i.e., when have h2 to indicate beginning of navigation) 15:01:06 -Lisa_Seeman 15:01:32 on this call: agreement that most important is headings to be nested correctly, h1 is not required. it is on the list for discussion, but not a lot of support for it. 15:01:54 +??P25 15:02:14 zakim, ??P25 is Lisa_Seeman 15:02:14 +Lisa_Seeman; got it 15:02:33 I have to run to another meeting - bye 15:02:40 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/07/WD-plan.html 15:02:52 -Becky_Gibson 15:02:54 -John_Slatin 15:11:38 Test Suite: http://tile-cridpath.atrc.utoronto.ca/acheck/servlet/ShowGuide?name=wcag-2-0-aaa.xml&lang=eng&wcag=true 15:14:52 action: Michael review test suite for language 15:16:47 David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag 15:17:40 cr proposes that the test suite should be normative 15:17:47 wac how often update for new techniques? 15:17:50 cr once a year 15:21:57 cr if its not normative, is there another status to give it? 15:22:22 ls such a restriction on creativity 15:22:49 wac realistic to update every year when has taken 6 to produce one normative document? 15:26:24 cr not meant to restrict people. you can't remove some of these things. meant to show that we know the best way to mark up tables (e.g.) 15:26:32 cr this is the minimum standard 15:26:38 cr it's base level accessibility 15:26:45 (for html) 15:27:34 cr want this to be strong and clear 15:28:23 ls have you looked at the work of task force 3 from EuroAccessibility? 15:28:32 ls they are defining methodologies for testing. 15:29:08 q+ to say "what about usability testing?" 15:31:32 zakim, who's making noise? 15:31:44 wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chris_Ridpath (9%), David_MacDonald (18%), Lisa_Seeman (96%) 15:31:50 zakim, mute David 15:31:50 David_MacDonald should now be muted 15:31:55 zakim, unmute David 15:31:55 David_MacDonald should no longer be muted 15:32:14 -Takayuki_Watanabe 15:33:51 -Lisa_Seeman 15:34:27 +??P12 15:37:42 further discussion about normative or not. pros or cons. 15:38:53 action: Chris post link to test suite to list 15:40:35 -Michael_Cooper 15:40:36 -Alex_Li 15:40:37 -Wendy 15:40:37 ChrisR has left #wai-wcag 15:40:38 -Chris_Ridpath 15:40:39 -??P12 15:40:40 -Jenae_Andershonis 15:40:41 -David_MacDonald 15:40:42 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended 15:40:43 Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Alex_Li, David_MacDonald, Takayuki_Watanabe, Becky_Gibson, John_Slatin, Wendy, Jenae_Andershonis, Lisa_Seeman 15:41:00 RRSAgent, make log world 15:52:58 nabe has left #wai-wcag 16:31:37 zakim, bye 16:31:37 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 16:31:41 RRSAgent, bye 16:31:41 I see 3 open action items: 16:31:41 ACTION: bg send proposal to list re: image replacement technique [1] 16:31:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T14-25-56 16:31:41 ACTION: Michael review test suite for language [2] 16:31:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T15-14-52 16:31:41 ACTION: Chris post link to test suite to list [3] 16:31:41 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/25-wai-wcag-irc#T15-38-53