IRC log of swbp on 2004-08-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

17:56:22 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #swbp

17:56:25 [aharth]

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17:56:32 [aharth]

hi

17:56:33 [Ralph]

Meeting: SemWeb BPD WG

17:56:38 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0072.html

17:56:42 [Ralph]

Chair: David

17:56:47 [Ralph]

Regrets: Brian, Alan, DanBri, Libby, Jos; at risk: Deb, Guus, Evan

17:56:52 [Ralph]

zakim, this will be swbp

17:56:52 [Zakim]

ok, Ralph; I see SW_BPD()2:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes

17:56:59 [Ralph]

zakim, read agenda from http://www.w3.org/2004/08/19-swbp-agenda.rdf

17:56:59 [Zakim]

working on it, Ralph

17:57:01 [Zakim]

agenda+ Administrivia [Guus/Chair]

17:57:02 [Zakim]

agendum 1 added

17:57:03 [Zakim]

agenda+ Action Item Review [Guus/Chair]

17:57:04 [Zakim]

agendum 2 added

17:57:05 [Zakim]

agenda+ TF Updates [Guus/Chair]

17:57:06 [Zakim]

agendum 3 added

17:57:07 [Zakim]

done reading agenda, Ralph

17:57:39 [David_Wood]

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17:57:42 [pepper]

From Steve Pepper & Lars Marius Garshol (Ontopia)

17:57:42 [pepper]

Joined W3C and SWBP this week (Hi everyone)

17:57:42 [pepper]

Regrets - unable to attend concall due to prior arr.

17:57:42 [pepper]

Wish to initiate RDF/TM Interoperability TF asap

17:57:42 [pepper]

Will post proposal to mailing list shortly

17:57:43 [pepper]

BR

17:58:14 [Zakim]

SW_BPD()2:00PM has now started

17:58:21 [Zakim]

+David_Wood

17:58:22 [Ralph]

hello, Steve; welcome to the Working Group (and to W3C!)

17:58:28 [pepper]

thx

17:58:39 [Zakim]

+Ralph

17:58:42 [Zakim]

-David_Wood

17:58:43 [Zakim]

+David_Wood

17:58:44 [pepper]

sorry i can't attend the concall today - too short notice

17:59:02 [Ralph]

sorry, Steve

17:59:11 [Zakim]

+??P2

17:59:29 [pepper]

please mention our interest in initiating RDF/TM Interop TF

17:59:38 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p2 is Andreas_Harth

17:59:38 [Zakim]

+Andreas_Harth; got it

17:59:50 [Ralph]

ok, Steve

17:59:53 [Zakim]

+??P3

18:00:00 [TomAdams]

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18:00:07 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p3 is Tom_Baker

18:00:07 [Zakim]

+Tom_Baker; got it

18:00:55 [Zakim]

+[Tucana]

18:01:04 [Ralph]

zakim, tucana is Tom_Adams

18:01:04 [Zakim]

+Tom_Adams; got it

18:01:39 [Zakim]

+??P5

18:02:05 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p5 is Mike_Uschold

18:02:05 [Zakim]

+Mike_Uschold; got it

18:02:46 [Zakim]

+Gary_Ng

18:03:51 [Ralph]

rrsagent, please make logs world-visible

18:04:04 [pepper]

have a good meeting, folks!

18:04:41 [pepper]

pepper has left #swbp

18:04:54 [MIkeU]

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18:05:08 [David_Wood]

Regrets: Brian, Alan, DanBri, Libby, Jos, Deb, Steve Pepper

18:05:19 [Zakim]

-Gary_Ng

18:05:31 [David_Wood]

Regrets: Guus

18:05:35 [Natasha]

Natasha has joined #swbp

18:05:45 [Zakim]

+Gary_Ng

18:06:12 [Zakim]

+??P8

18:06:22 [Ralph]

zakim, mute gary

18:06:22 [Zakim]

Gary_Ng should now be muted

18:06:29 [Zakim]

+??P7

18:06:47 [aliman]

aliman has joined #swbp

18:07:00 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p7 is Natasha

18:07:00 [Zakim]

+Natasha; got it

18:07:05 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p8 is Alistair

18:07:05 [Zakim]

+Alistair; got it

18:07:13 [Ralph]

zakim, pick a victim

18:07:13 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Ralph

18:07:20 [Ralph]

ok, I'll do it

18:07:36 [Ralph]

Scribe: Natasha

18:07:47 [David_Wood]

zakim, who is here

18:07:47 [Zakim]

David_Wood, you need to end that query with '?'

18:07:55 [David_Wood]

zakim, who is here?

18:07:55 [Zakim]

On the phone I see David_Wood, Ralph, Andreas_Harth (muted), Tom_Baker, Tom_Adams, Mike_Uschold, Gary_Ng (muted), Alistair, Natasha

18:07:57 [Zakim]

On IRC I see aliman, Natasha, MIkeU, TomAdams, David_Wood, aharth, RRSAgent, Tbaker, Zakim, Ralph

18:08:08 [Ralph]

zakim, take up agendum 1

18:08:08 [Zakim]

agendum 1. "Administrivia" taken up [from Guus/Chair]

18:08:18 [Natasha]

PROPOSED accept minutes of the last telecon

18:08:25 [Natasha]

MikeU second

18:08:36 [Natasha]

RESOLVED to accept the minutes

18:08:46 [Natasha]

Next telecon September 2nd

18:09:25 [Natasha]

David: any problems for the earlier time for the next telecon (1400 UTC)

18:09:35 [Natasha]

possible conflict with a telecon for WG chairs

18:10:20 [Natasha]

Either Ralph or David will chair the SWBP WG telecon next time

18:10:43 [Natasha]

another possibility is to start the WG meeting at 1430UTC and have a 60-min meeting

18:10:59 [Natasha]

RESOLVED: next meeting at 1430 UTC, 2nd September

18:11:13 [TomAdams]

I shall be unavailable for the 2nd Sept meeting. Preliminary regrets.

18:11:24 [Natasha]

DavidL f2f location

18:11:37 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35495/2ndf2f/ straw poll on f2f location

18:11:47 [Natasha]

Initial results of the straw poll look contentious

18:12:02 [aliman]

Zakim, mute Alistair

18:12:02 [Zakim]

Alistair should now be muted

18:12:21 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35495/2ndf2f/results current results (11 responses)

18:12:41 [Natasha]

the straw poll currently expires next week

18:12:58 [Natasha]

David encourages everyone to vote before the deadline so that we can decide on teh date and time

18:13:11 [Natasha]

Ralph: we also need an 8-week lead-in period

18:13:55 [Natasha]

David: proposes to discuss the straw poll results on teh mailing list and choose on September 2nd

18:14:07 [Natasha]

If it is hiroshima,, September 2nd is our last chance to decide

18:14:18 [Natasha]

ACTION Ralph link the tutorial page from the home page

18:14:23 [Natasha]

done

18:14:24 [Ralph]

zakim, move to next agendum

18:14:24 [Zakim]

agendum 2. "Action Item Review" taken up [from Guus/Chair]

18:14:33 [Natasha]

ACTION ralph & guus to set up straw poll as web form for location of next

18:14:33 [Natasha]

F2F

18:14:34 [Natasha]

done

18:14:41 [Natasha]

ACTION TomA to add links from last telecon to tutorials page

18:14:50 [Natasha]

done, but have not committed the changes yet

18:14:53 [Ralph]

Tutorials linked under http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/#FreqLinks1

18:14:57 [Natasha]

Tom thanks everyone for submitting the links

18:15:10 [Natasha]

ACTION Alan to respond to guus' document on qualified cardinality

18:15:10 [Natasha]

constraints

18:15:26 [Natasha]

continued

18:15:31 [Natasha]

ACTION TomA get MINDLAB to write description of urchin for APDTF weblog

18:15:34 [Natasha]

continued

18:16:21 [Natasha]

ACTION Ralph to link ADTF blog from WG page

18:16:24 [Natasha]

done

18:16:26 [Ralph]

ESW weblog linked at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/#Tasks under ATDF

18:16:34 [Natasha]

ACTION Ralph do an analysis of which WG participants have been able to

18:16:34 [Natasha]

attend at which meeting time.

18:16:38 [Natasha]

continued

18:16:44 [Natasha]

ACTION Jeremy to review XSD FNO and SCD documents.

18:17:17 [Natasha]

continued

18:17:22 [Natasha]

ACTION Jeremy to add XSD FNO and SCD documents to TF reference list.

18:17:25 [Natasha]

continued

18:17:29 [Natasha]

ACTION Jeremy to check semantics on DAWG use of XSD in abstract query model.

18:17:31 [Natasha]

continued

18:17:32 [Ralph]

I think I promised to help Jeremy with this and we've not talked

18:17:46 [Natasha]

Jeremy is not here and no one is aware of any action on teh three items above

18:17:49 [aliman]

Zakim, unmute Alistair

18:17:49 [Zakim]

Alistair should no longer be muted

18:17:58 [Ralph]

zakim, move to next agendum

18:17:58 [Zakim]

agendum 3. "TF Updates" taken up [from Guus/Chair]

18:18:01 [Natasha]

TF updates

18:18:09 [aliman]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0085.html

18:18:19 [aliman]

for update on PORT TF

18:18:23 [Ralph]

Natasha: there has been considerable feedback on N-ary relations

18:18:29 [Ralph]

... little feedback on the other notes

18:18:36 [Natasha]

OEP: continuing discussion on OEP notes on the mailing list

18:19:05 [Natasha]

PORT: link with update posted by Alistair

18:20:13 [Natasha]

WordNet: no one from teh TF present

18:20:51 [Natasha]

XML Schema datatypes: no updates (no one from the TF present)

18:21:11 [Natasha]

Vocabulary management (TomB): Tom will post an updated draft of the TF description

18:21:30 [Natasha]

Tom: the update will be in the form of a straw poll of TF members to determine how likely the

18:21:46 [Natasha]

members are to agree on the scope; to determine which items are in scope or out of scope

18:22:02 [Natasha]

Tom will post it next week with the goal to get it rolling by the end of the month

18:22:37 [Natasha]

HTML (Ben): TomA was on the telecon

18:22:40 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0075.html [HTML] next telecon for RDF-in-XHTML in early September [Ben 2004-08-18]

18:22:44 [Natasha]

the telecon minutes were posted to the list

18:23:17 [Natasha]

David: think it's an important TF and would like to encourage participation

18:24:00 [Natasha]

There is a poll on the next TF meeting (proposed date: September 7th)

18:24:34 [Natasha]

there are no responses yet. there is enough time to get more participation

18:25:55 [Natasha]

Ralph and Ben had a conversation with Tomaso on teh formality of the WG communication

18:26:22 [Natasha]

Ralph: We would like to see them have a more formal reference to this TF in their charter

18:26:53 [Natasha]

David: Ben has done as much as he could do to get the TF started, arranging a telecon, etc.

18:27:08 [Natasha]

it is in our hands to respond to his email

18:27:11 [Ralph]

The XHTML TF will conduct its discussions in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/

18:27:21 [Natasha]

no specific action items though

18:27:33 [Natasha]

ADTF: no one is here from the TF

18:27:58 [Ralph]

most of the ADTF folk are at the FOAF workshop

18:28:07 [Natasha]

Tutorial page (TomA): needs to commit the updates

18:28:07 [Ralph]

[/me looks forward to a report from that workshop]

18:28:34 [Natasha]

ACTION: Tom to post to the mailing list when it is done and request comments

18:28:50 [TomAdams]

q+ to speak about DAWG email

18:28:54 [Ralph]

Ontopia

18:29:07 [Natasha]

Ralph: Ontopia has recently joined W3C

18:29:38 [TomAdams]

http://www.ontopia.net/

18:29:48 [Natasha]

they are one of several commercial companies heavily oinvolved in topic maps

18:30:11 [Natasha]

they joined W3C with the hope that this WG will be interested in discussing the relationship between TM and SW

18:30:36 [aliman]

TMs close to thesaurus work ...

18:30:48 [aliman]

Some contributions from TM folks on public-esw-thes@w3.org

18:30:59 [Natasha]

There was some interest at the March f2f in Cannes

18:31:47 [Natasha]

the url for ontopia: ontopia,net (although it doesn't seem to work at the moment)

18:32:26 [Natasha]

TomA (?): we have some customers who have interest in TM

18:32:33 [Ralph]

zakim, where is +47?

18:32:33 [Zakim]

country code 47 is Norway

18:32:46 [Natasha]

many of them are interested in both RDF and TM, and therefore they will be interested in their interoperability

18:33:14 [Natasha]

Many of the issues that the TM guys came across are now coming up in the THES TF

18:33:24 [Natasha]

This could be a good bridge between the groups

18:33:48 [Natasha]

Steve Pepper from Ontopia was very keen on getting the TM TF started

18:33:59 [Natasha]

We can't call it TM TF though

18:34:07 [Natasha]

A possible name: RDF?TN

18:34:14 [Natasha]

sorry -- RDF/TM

18:34:24 [Natasha]

we'll find a name later

18:34:43 [Natasha]

the general goal of the TF is to investigate interoperability of TM and RDF

18:34:51 [Natasha]

Bernard has written papers on this topic

18:35:01 [Natasha]

he could be a potential TF coordinator

18:35:36 [Natasha]

ACTION Ralph to contact Bernard regarding Topic Maps TF

18:36:13 [Zakim]

+Deb_McGuinness

18:36:31 [Natasha]

It would be good Griddle people involved -- they have relevant technology

18:37:36 [Ralph]

s/Griddle/GRDDL/

18:38:05 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/TR/grddl/ Gleaning Resource Descriptions from Dialects of Languages (GRDDL)

18:38:12 [Natasha]

Deb -- update on OEP: The topic came up on whether we should minimize teh number of triples

18:38:24 [Natasha]

This may be a theme that could come up in a number of notes

18:39:42 [Ralph]

Natasha: in more recent mail, the commenter modified his position

18:39:48 [Natasha]

The issue has been resolved on the list as far as this particular note

18:40:41 [Natasha]

Deb: on f2f -- please distribute between East and West Coast

18:40:45 [Natasha]

locations

18:41:13 [Natasha]

Ralph: there is certainly a desire to spread out the f2f meetings

18:41:22 [Ralph]

s/Ralph/David/

18:41:47 [dlm]

dlm has joined #swbp

18:41:51 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ralph find e-mailed f2f responses and impersonate them into the straw poll

18:42:09 [Natasha]

there were also some responses to David and Guus separately

18:42:36 [TomAdams]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0061.html

18:42:38 [Ralph]

zakim, close this agendum

18:42:38 [Zakim]

agendum 3 closed

18:42:39 [Zakim]

I see nothing remaining on the agenda

18:42:45 [Ralph]

Topic: Data Access Working Group

18:42:49 [Zakim]

TomAdams, you wanted to speak about DAWG email

18:43:09 [Natasha]

Tom: data access WG has just released use cases and requirements

18:43:23 [Natasha]

Tom asks people on this WG to take a look at the document

18:43:47 [Natasha]

Tom will be happy to relay the comments from teh BP mailing list to Data Access people

18:44:02 [Natasha]

There can also be a formal liason between two WG

18:44:25 [Natasha]

Ralph: if there are several WG members who want to generate a formal response, we can do that

18:44:51 [Natasha]

DAG is settleed around triple-like syntax, but network Inference has raised some significant discussion

18:45:02 [Natasha]

on whether XQuery should be considered as RDF Query language

18:45:15 [Natasha]

The DAG is moving on this and has asked the BP WG to comment

18:45:27 [Natasha]

This issue will have an impact on how an RDF Query language will look like

18:45:36 [TomAdams]

s/DAG/DAWG

18:45:55 [Natasha]

we will spend some time discussing this at the next telecon

18:46:23 [Natasha]

Ralph: do we want to generate a WG response?

18:46:35 [Natasha]

Tom? : leaning that way. how do we do that formally?

18:47:02 [TomAdams]

s/Tom?/David

18:47:06 [Natasha]

Ralph: we can do the TF model, asking for people who can contribute some time to this over the next couple of weeks

18:47:42 [Ralph]

[[

18:47:42 [Ralph]

.. we're particularly interested

18:47:42 [Ralph]

in feedback on a couple things:

18:47:42 [Ralph]

Anybody have experience with XQuery/RDF integration to share?

18:47:42 [Ralph]

...

18:47:43 [Ralph]

Any rules/query integration experience to share? Thoughts

18:47:45 [Ralph]

on best practices for accessing RDF data, while rules

18:47:47 [Ralph]

work is still in the early stages of standardization?

18:47:49 [Ralph]

]]

18:47:51 [Ralph]

-- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0061.html

18:48:00 [Natasha]

David would like to see some discussion on the mailing list (if there is no siginificant discusccion, perhaps there is not much interest?

18:48:43 [Natasha]

David will contact danC to tell him that we are putting it on the agenda

18:50:13 [Natasha]

there is also an overlap here with ADTF

18:51:38 [Natasha]

Ralph: because of our name and broad charter, we may often be asked to comment on things like that

18:51:56 [Natasha]

and we sometimes may have to say that we don't wish to take it on

18:52:18 [Natasha]

David: how do we determine if there is enough interest in particular issue that we asked to look at

18:52:34 [Natasha]

David would like to see some objective, concrete mechanism to determine the level of interest

18:53:22 [Natasha]

a straw poll perhaps?

18:53:34 [Natasha]

it is easier to start a thread on the mailing list

18:54:04 [Natasha]

ACTION: David to ask on the mailing list whether there is an interest to generate a formal response to DanC note

18:54:26 [Natasha]

we'll try to get some response between now and September 2nd telecon

18:54:58 [Natasha]

Deb: Jeff Pollock and ?? from Network Inference may respond on the mailing list

18:56:37 [Natasha]

Gary: Also thinks that an email discussion is going to be a good way to do it

18:58:10 [Natasha]

ACTION TomA get MINDLAB to write description of urchin for APDTF weblog

18:58:12 [Natasha]

done

18:58:28 [Ralph]

rrsagent, pointer?

18:58:28 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2004/08/19-swbp-irc#T18-58-28

18:59:07 [Natasha]

Deb: there was a proposal to do a note on units and measures

18:59:21 [Natasha]

Natasha thinks that Guus has signed up for that (nut not entirely sure)

18:59:39 [Ralph]

Action TomA on Mindlab; http://www.w3.org/2004/08/19-swbp-irc#T18-15-31

18:59:41 [Natasha]

Deb is willing to contribute but warns that it could be a very large amount of work to do it well

19:01:35 [Ralph]

units and measures is a specific request from the Device Independence Working Group

19:03:24 [Natasha]

What Deb has in mind is a good survey of existing units and measures ontology

19:03:33 [Natasha]

and doing it in OWL (not RDF)

19:03:54 [Natasha]

??: Is this an ontology development activity?

19:04:18 [Natasha]

Deb: my interpretation of the original request is to do a survey of existing ontologies (and that already is already a very large task)

19:04:25 [Ralph]

s/??/David/

19:04:36 [Natasha]

developing an ontology is a much bigger task.

19:04:48 [Ralph]

q+ to ask if the representation of RDF with units is clear assuming a units ontology exists

19:05:09 [Natasha]

David: has no reason to believe that Guus has taken this on as a major activity

19:06:24 [Natasha]

Ralph: Postulating that there is at least one ontology of units, is it clear how one would write RDF instance data using that ontology

19:06:32 [Natasha]

Deb: yes, should be reasonably clear

19:06:39 [Zakim]

Ralph, you wanted to ask if the representation of RDF with units is clear assuming a units ontology exists

19:07:04 [Natasha]

David: not so sure that it would be so easy

19:07:27 [Ralph]

I recall suggestions that data types could be used to represent units

19:08:05 [Natasha]

Deb: there are two different issues: (1) how much do you need to model? and (2) if someone already ahs a representation, is it straightforard how to represent this in OWL

19:11:25 [Natasha]

Natasha: Perhaps we can have a note that avoids the issue of what a good ontology for units and measures is, postulating some simple one ("suppose that's what you have")

19:11:35 [Natasha]

and presenting how you would use it in OWL/RDF

19:11:55 [Natasha]

we need to ask Guus what he had in mind (and what he has already committed to)

19:13:12 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Jul/0108.html Re: DIWG Requests Guidance on Ontologies for Units [DWood 2004-07-23]

19:13:34 [Tbaker]

Tbaker has joined #swbp

19:14:34 [Natasha]

David will ask for DIWG requirements at a coordination telecon tomorrow

19:16:48 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-semweb-cg/2004Jul/0069.html meeting record: 2004-07-30 SemWeb CG

19:18:40 [David_Wood]

DIWG thoughts on units and ontologies: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-di-wg/2004Jul/0035.html

19:18:50 [Ralph]

[[ We would like to have a high-level specification that was

19:18:50 [Ralph]

independent of underlying representation for multimedia devices, the

19:18:50 [Ralph]

actual underlying structure becomes more important. A tree structure

19:18:50 [Ralph]

seems to be important to MMI WG. We are interested in access

19:18:50 [Ralph]

patterns that use XPath as well as others. There is no 1-1

19:18:51 [Ralph]

correspondence between RDF and an underlying XML document. It

19:18:53 [Ralph]

might be possible to present a tree for an underlying canonical

19:18:55 [Ralph]

form of RDF

19:18:57 [Ralph]

]]

19:18:59 [Ralph]

-- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-semweb-cg/2004Jul/0069.html

19:20:23 [dlm]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0092.html is mike's email

19:22:56 [Ralph]

Natasha, Deb: we're happy to help with a note on how to use an ontology of units with RDF/OWL but we don't have time to lead this

19:23:08 [Natasha]

David encourages Deb to raise this issue on the mailing list again to see if we can get an IEO note on representing units

19:23:45 [Natasha]

meeting adjourned

19:23:48 [Zakim]

-Tom_Adams

19:23:49 [Zakim]

-Alistair

19:23:50 [Zakim]

-Gary_Ng

19:23:51 [Zakim]

-Deb_McGuinness

19:23:52 [Zakim]

-Natasha

19:23:53 [Zakim]

-David_Wood

19:23:55 [Zakim]

-Andreas_Harth

19:23:57 [Zakim]

-Mike_Uschold

19:23:59 [Zakim]

-Ralph

19:24:03 [Zakim]

-Tom_Baker

19:24:04 [Natasha]

Natasha has left #swbp

19:24:06 [Zakim]

SW_BPD()2:00PM has ended

19:24:07 [Zakim]

Attendees were David_Wood, Ralph, Andreas_Harth, Tom_Baker, [Tucana], Tom_Adams, Mike_Uschold, Gary_Ng, Natasha, Alistair, Deb_McGuinness

19:24:24 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

I see 3 open action items:

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Tom to post to the mailing list when it is done and request comments [1]

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/19-swbp-irc#T18-28-34

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph find e-mailed f2f responses and impersonate them into the straw poll [2]

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/19-swbp-irc#T18-41-51

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: David to ask on the mailing list whether there is an interest to generate a formal response to DanC note [3]

19:24:24 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/19-swbp-irc#T18-54-04