IRC log of UA on 2004-08-13

Timestamps are in UTC.

00:06:14 [RRSAgent]

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00:06:21 [MattSRC]

rrsagent, make log world

00:07:39 [MattSRC]

jg: Some elements can be put into the tab order by setting tabindex=0?

00:08:05 [MattSRC]

jg: IBM is making several proposals to XHTML 2 for accessibility. Also making proposals to changing implementation of accesskeys.

00:08:24 [MattSRC]

jg: Main proposal is role attribute.

00:08:33 [MattSRC]

jg: Could be more specifically defined with RDF.

00:09:40 [MattSRC]

cl: Lots of it is on divs and spans.

00:10:32 [MattSRC]

http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/roadmap

00:11:35 [MattSRC]

mm: Protocols and Formats WG is working with HTML WG and HTML Coordination Group. This document is member-confidential.

00:12:21 [MattSRC]

pk: We've been having more discussions about keyboard navigation. If you simply move the caret, how do you come up with a relatively logical flow through a web page?

00:13:52 [MattSRC]

pk: We have some technology for linearizing web pages, such as Lynx. Algorithm for how Lynx renders the page seems to be reasonable and accepted by blind community.

00:14:39 [MattSRC]

pk: Lynx figures out a logical flow based on the table structure.

00:16:28 [MattSRC]

jg: keyboard support doesn't seem to work in Mozilla as advertised. Seems to work on Mac, but not on Windows.

00:16:32 [MattSRC]

pk: On Unix?

00:16:35 [MattSRC]

jg: haven't tried.

00:16:58 [louie]

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00:17:40 [MattSRC]

mm: Having trouble getting sound working on Gnopernicus with Gentoo.

00:17:49 [MattSRC]

jg: Latest version?

00:17:57 [MattSRC]

pk: We're on 2.8 beta.

00:19:46 [Zakim]

+??P0

00:20:04 [MattSRC]

jg: Working on 1.0 version of accessibility plugin.

00:20:07 [MattSRC]

pk: What license?

00:20:16 [MattSRC]

pk: Would prefer LGPL or BSD license.

00:21:20 [MattSRC]

pk: Would want to let commercial entities use it.

00:21:26 [MattSRC]

mm: Mozilla Public License?

00:21:41 [MattSRC]

http://www.mozilla.org/MPL/

00:21:59 [MattSRC]

zakim, ??P0 is Louie

00:21:59 [Zakim]

+Louie; got it

00:22:14 [louie]

I am coming

00:22:42 [MattSRC]

pk: Frames present another interesting twist.

00:24:03 [MattSRC]

jg: Frames is an object in the DOM?

00:25:10 [MattSRC]

mm: document.frames is a collection in the DOM impls I've used.

00:27:02 [MattSRC]

jg: Would be nice to have features like h key to next header in Opera, form navigation, etc.

00:28:15 [MattSRC]

pk: We've been talking about this for a few months, and we've looked at how ATs and UAs do it. Feels like we are where we were when we started.

00:28:23 [MattSRC]

pk: Maybe we need somebody to propose something.

00:31:07 [MattSRC]

pk: Needs to conform to 1194.21(a), finding everything from the keyboard.

00:33:03 [MattSRC]

pk: Caret navigation has trouble in the browser. Was borrowed from the editor. So we can either go to Composer with patches, or say F7 toggles a new chunk of code.

00:34:38 [MattSRC]

cl: I'll talk to Aaron about it.

00:35:16 [MattSRC]

jl: Is it acceptable to press F7, and only use left and right arrows to browse content? If so, almost all the content can be browsed. But if we use up and down, we'll lose some.

00:35:30 [MattSRC]

pk: No. It will take too long to get to places.

00:38:19 [JRG]

MM: The only thing that would not be able to publish ini w3c space

00:38:21 [MattSRC]

jg: Okay to discuss this in he WG?

00:38:38 [JRG]

CL: Is there a Mozilla forum?

00:39:10 [JRG]

PK: The Mozilla accessibility forum

00:39:43 [JRG]

JL: What about down arrow keys

00:39:58 [JRG]

CL: What does up and down arrows do?

00:40:20 [JRG]

PK: Up and down in a table could move between tables, example

00:40:37 [JRG]

CL: Or is could take you down a column

00:41:06 [JRG]

PK: We look at links as table cell is a whole line

00:41:13 [MattSRC]

cl: left and right arrows could move serially, but could also have a table mode like in HPR

00:41:19 [JRG]

CL: HPR has different modes

00:41:48 [MattSRC]

pk: My suggestion is a simple mechanism and interpretation of arrow keys, and special modes for navigating table columns.

00:43:03 [MattSRC]

louie: We found structure can be quite complex. Is there any behavioral spec for arrow keys when accessing web content?

00:44:35 [MattSRC]

cl: We had Windows cursors mode where up/down went line by line, left/right when char by char. Wasn't easy to implement because it was visual as opposed to structural.

00:44:53 [MattSRC]

pk: Visual is important to VI users. Structural is important to blind users.

00:46:31 [MattSRC]

pk: Seems like overkill for Mozilla alone. Balance between AT and browser. From a Section 508 point of view, we need at least one keyboard nav mode.

00:47:27 [MattSRC]

pk: Better to have a keyboard nav scheme that works everywhere, and use Jon's tools for navigating structure with Moz extensions.

00:48:42 [MattSRC]

pk: Could split the action into two pieces, one of which is going to be implementable faster, and gives minimum functionality.

00:48:57 [MattSRC]

jl: We have no keyboard nav scheme for Mozilla.

00:49:12 [MattSRC]

pk: We have undocumented, unspecified current behavior of F7. We don't have a spec for how it should be.

00:50:01 [MattSRC]

louie: What access method should we use?

00:50:29 [MattSRC]

pk: When you hit tab into focus navigation, to get back to caret navigation, you have to hit the accelerator key.

00:50:58 [MattSRC]

pk: When I hit that key, the caret would go to the beginning of the text of the checkbox, or the beginning of the hyperlink. When I'm ready to tab around again, I hit tab.

00:51:52 [MattSRC]

pk: Going in and out of the mode is the challenge.

00:53:54 [MattSRC]

cl: I'd be surprised that Mozilla is getting the keys and the objects first.

00:54:11 [MattSRC]

cl: In Windows, IE doesn't get those keystrokes.

00:55:13 [MattSRC]

pk: Even if Mozilla could steal the keystroke, would still want to negotiate with the plugin

00:56:10 [MattSRC]

jg: I'll try to write up an issues list and forward to the list.

00:57:44 [MattSRC]

pk: There's a GNOME list that we should announce drafts to.

01:02:44 [MattSRC]

jg: Meet again next month?

01:02:49 [Zakim]

-Peter_Korn

01:02:51 [Zakim]

- +1.914.428.aaaa

01:02:52 [Zakim]

-Cathy_Laws

01:02:53 [Zakim]

-Matt

01:02:56 [Zakim]

-??P5

01:02:59 [Zakim]

-Louie

01:03:01 [Zakim]

-??P4

01:03:02 [Zakim]

-??P6

01:03:03 [Zakim]

WAI_UAWG()8:00PM has ended

01:03:04 [Zakim]

Attendees were +1.914.428.aaaa, Cathy_Laws, Peter_Korn, Matt, Louie

01:03:47 [MattSRC]

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