IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-08-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:00:36 [RRSAgent]
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14:01:25 [ChrisR]
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14:01:34 [wendy]
zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
14:01:34 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; that matches WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM
14:01:41 [wendy]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:01:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P0, [Microsoft], Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Lee
14:01:50 [wendy]
zakim, ??P0 is David_MacDondald
14:01:50 [Zakim]
+David_MacDondald; got it
14:01:59 [wendy]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Jenae
14:01:59 [Zakim]
+Jenae; got it
14:02:05 [bcaldwell]
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14:02:10 [Zakim]
14:02:20 [Zakim]
14:02:33 [Zakim]
14:02:46 [Zakim]
14:03:13 [wendy]
zakim, ??P11 is Ben_Caldwell
14:03:13 [Zakim]
+Ben_Caldwell; got it
14:04:49 [Zakim]
14:06:00 [wendy]
zakim, ??P12 is Lisa_Seeman
14:06:00 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:06:10 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:06:10 [Zakim]
On the phone I see David_MacDondald, Jenae, Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Lee, Chris_Ridpath, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Lisa_Seeman
14:07:02 [Zakim]
14:07:07 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force
14:07:13 [wendy]
Chair: Michael Cooper
14:07:30 [r12a]
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14:07:40 [wendy]
14:08:13 [wendy]
Topic: test cases
14:08:29 [wendy]
cr i've been working on test cases for checking conformance. talked with jon gunderson.
14:08:39 [wendy]
cr jenae and i are joining the uawg call tomorrow.
14:08:49 [wendy]
cr heard from tim boland about our test cases and how to improve them.
14:08:58 [wendy]
cr after talk with uawg have a clearer idea.
14:09:07 [wendy]
cr next week can publish some closer to finished documents.
14:09:22 [wendy]
cr (the format of the test case)
14:09:24 [wendy]
cr a proposed draft
14:09:38 [wendy]
mc include the xml format as well as all the metadata?
14:09:44 [wendy]
cr yes: html doc and xml format
14:10:49 [wendy]
bg where do we look for test cases? chris' site?
14:11:07 [wendy]
mc could look at uaag site. also at chris'
14:12:09 [wendy]
cr my site is open and anyone can contribute. trying to promote idea of common set of accessibility checks.
14:12:45 [wendy]
cr i looked at a number of w3c test suites. they are all different.
14:12:57 [wendy]
cr the test suites i liked best were uaag, because they are the clearest
14:13:07 [Zakim]
14:13:34 [wendy]
sp the old AERT has a few test cases
14:14:31 [Zakim]
14:15:38 [wendy]
14:15:44 [r12a]
i got cut off, so i don't know whether the CSS test guidelines were mentioned
14:15:53 [r12a]
as a good example
14:16:18 [wendy]
do you have a uri? we've looked at some css test suite materials.
14:16:22 [David_MacDonald]
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14:16:31 [wendy]
Topic: end-to-end mappings
14:17:13 [wendy]
ja in examples, do short equivalent and short label mean the same thing? if so, use one term?
14:17:25 [wendy]
bc using "alternative" instead of "equivalent" anyway
14:19:18 [r12a]
zakim, mute ishida
14:19:18 [Zakim]
sorry, r12a, I do not see a party named 'ishida'
14:19:27 [r12a]
zakim, mute richard
14:19:27 [Zakim]
Richard should now be muted
14:21:20 [wendy]
action: wendy add issues related to gateway and guidelines to bugzilla
14:21:44 [wendy]
action 1 = jenae add issues related to gateway and guidelines to bugzilla
14:21:59 [wendy]
action: jenae add issues related to html techniques and multimedia to bugzilla
14:22:25 [wendy]
14:22:36 [wendy]
sp haven't gotten to test cases, but success criteria and guideline.
14:23:01 [wendy]
sp difficult to have one-to-one mapping between html techniques and success criteria
14:23:44 [wendy]
sp lots of content is read in a chunk and am unsure what the mapping is between tech-indie and html-specific.
14:23:56 [wendy]
bg is there an easier way to have it read to you?
14:24:08 [wendy]
bg even for sighted, hard to follow since it's in a table
14:24:16 [wendy]
bg better way to group the info?
14:24:59 [wendy]
sp the way the guidelines are written (with headings), perhaps nest information
14:25:10 [wendy]
bg if add another column for testing, that will make it even more confusing
14:25:20 [wendy]
dmd headings at each column?
14:25:33 [wendy]
sp yes, but it reads chunks. all techniques are read together.
14:25:42 [wendy]
bg all of those usually go with that success criteria
14:26:13 [wendy]
dmd what if there is a corresponding css techniques?
14:26:34 [wendy]
14:29:13 [wendy]
dmd the mapping is not between css and html it's all of the pieces associated with a success criteria
14:29:31 [wendy]
action: wac and sp look at structure and presentation of the mapping table
14:29:47 [wendy]
sp on what basis are we saying 50,000 words?
14:30:13 [wendy]
sp even a small page, there is hierarchical markup that is helpful.
14:30:31 [wendy]
bc there are 40 open issues with that guideline, including that one.
14:30:56 [wendy]
sp level 2 success criteria, a point about logical tab order, the issue said, "this might not be testable."
14:31:22 [wendy]
sp perhaps move to level 3?
14:31:28 [wendy]
wac level 3 is testable as well
14:32:05 [wendy]
sp move because it is an assertion, similar to the others in level 3
14:32:35 [wendy]
sp at level 3, only mentions paragraphs. doesn't mention lists or data tables
14:33:52 [Zakim]
14:34:25 [donaldfevans]
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14:35:06 [wendy]
action: sp look at issues in bugzilla and coordinate with yvette on guidelines summary
14:36:56 [wendy]
mc is there a need to discuss existing test suites on this call?
14:37:18 [wendy]
ja do we need to have a formal review process to look at each test case and approve it?
14:37:27 [wendy]
cr yes, think we do need that formal process.
14:37:46 [wendy]
ja best thing, start going through today.
14:42:07 [wendy]
action: ben add product to bugzilla for test suite
14:43:01 [wendy]
14:43:23 [wendy]
action: cr read process doc, if have questions talk w/wendy
14:43:58 [wendy]
action: bc, cr, ja set up bugzilla with components
14:44:30 [Zakim]
14:44:39 [r12a]
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14:44:43 [wendy]
dmd the layout of the end-to-ends is pretty well done. only a few that haven't been compelted: 4.1, 4.2, 2.5
14:45:06 [wendy]
dmd would need to get latest draft.
14:46:17 [wendy]
wac latest only has guideline 1.1
14:46:40 [wendy]
dmd biggest problems found were in the gateway
14:47:36 [donaldfevans]
14:47:54 [wendy]
bg i've updated 3.1 but haven't published it yet.
14:48:07 [wendy]
bg took an action item last week to send issues to the mailing list
14:48:27 [wendy]
bg js raised an issue with meaning and pronunciation last week. didn't see bugzilla related to that.
14:48:45 [wendy]
bg someone else was doing 3.2
14:49:15 [wendy]
bg tim was going to add the test cases.
14:49:42 [wendy]
action items from last week:
14:50:07 [wendy]
dmd start looking at tables and decide if we are covering guidelines well w/techniques or are there holes?
14:50:25 [wendy]
wac what are we waiting for? test cases?
14:50:43 [wendy]
dmd not sure what the relationship is (of test cases) to the end-to-ends.
14:50:54 [wendy]
mc test cases are an extension to the end-to-ends
14:51:15 [wendy]
mc helping us get a whole picture of the entire chain from principle down to test case
14:53:36 [Michael]
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14:53:38 [wendy]
sp diff between example and test case: example conforms to success criteria. test cases may have one that passes and another tha fails.
14:53:59 [wendy]
bg diff between technique and examples?
14:54:04 [wendy]
ja there are examples at all levels.
14:56:58 [wendy]
bg could we attach files to techniques submissions?
14:57:12 [wendy]
bg e.g. javascript techniques
14:57:52 [wendy]
bg would be nice if could have examples can run when looking at techniques
14:59:01 [Michael]
14:59:51 [wendy]
wac can send attachments to w3c mailing lists
15:00:02 [wendy]
bc having problems w/cdata
15:00:38 [Zakim]
15:00:40 [wendy]
bc copy the whole thing
15:00:55 [wendy]
bc best to start w/complete working file than piece of it
15:01:42 [wendy]
bc once the form is filled out, will trigger an issue
15:01:51 [wendy]
bc bugzilla will allow file attachments
15:07:08 [wendy]
bg where are the minutes?
15:07:18 [wendy]
mc i haven't been emailing the links
15:08:27 [Zakim]
15:08:27 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
15:10:27 [wendy]
Topic: 1.4 end-to-end
15:10:52 [bcaldwell]
15:13:08 [wendy]
motion and contrast are different issues.
15:13:59 [wendy]
gateway 1.4.2 discusses why contrast is important.
15:14:18 [wendy]
lots of work needed. phrases are not best way to describe.
15:18:00 [wendy]
couple places where it is a "wendy cut, tom paste" (move from css to gateway)
15:18:14 [wendy]
still need to do that since didn't edit other parts of gateway (other than 1.1)
15:18:45 [wendy]
in gateway, need to cleanup text about "partial disabilities"
15:19:42 [wendy]
a section in html techniques for css techniques (use structural elements, style with css)
15:19:47 [wendy]
either needs expanding or coord w/css
15:19:51 [wendy]
largely a placeholder
15:20:30 [wendy]
dmd any other adjustments that need to be made?
15:21:01 [bcaldwell]
latest mappings -
15:21:07 [wendy]
4 css techniques: # 7 Colors and Backgrounds
15:21:07 [wendy]
* 7.1 Specifying colors by keyword or RGB value
15:21:07 [wendy]
* 7.2 Specifying colors
15:21:07 [wendy]
* 7.3 Creating foreground and background contrast
15:21:07 [wendy]
* 7.4 Specifying background and foreground color
15:21:51 [wendy]
bg sc 1: Any text that is presented over a background is electronically available so that it could be re-presented in a form that allows the text to be distinguished from the background.
15:22:00 [wendy]
saying, "don't put text in images?"
15:23:29 [wendy]
if want to show how to use a specific font and div to create these effects, that be useful?
15:27:06 [wendy]
wac sending css techs to variety of folks for review. don't have FIR or text replacement techniques in this draft, still some accessibility issues. will solicit people to submit techniques.
15:28:58 [wendy]
bc create the techniques, but the asst technologies don't support. need to make clear what is not supported and why.
15:29:59 [ChrisR]
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15:30:15 [Zakim]
15:34:46 [wendy]
next week: 90 minute call (to discuss test suites, etc) then 30 minutes for bugzilla training
15:37:50 [wendy]
action: editors prep bugzilla for html, css, gateway issues for next draft (3 sept)
15:37:55 [Zakim]
15:38:03 [donaldfevans]
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15:38:18 [Zakim]
15:38:35 [Zakim]
15:38:37 [Zakim]
15:38:39 [Zakim]
15:38:43 [Zakim]
15:41:27 [Zakim]
15:41:28 [Zakim]
15:41:29 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:41:30 [Zakim]
Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Wendy, Alex_Lee, David_MacDondald, Jenae, Chris_Ridpath, Sailesh_Panchang, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Lisa_Seeman, Richard, Don_Evans
15:41:39 [wendy]
zakim, bye
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15:41:43 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
I see 8 open action items:
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae add issues related to gateway and guidelines to bugzilla [1]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: jenae add issues related to html techniques and multimedia to bugzilla [2]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac and sp look at structure and presentation of the mapping table [3]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sp look at issues in bugzilla and coordinate with yvette on guidelines summary [4]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben add product to bugzilla for test suite [5]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: cr read process doc, if have questions talk w/wendy [6]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: bc, cr, ja set up bugzilla with components [7]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: editors prep bugzilla for html, css, gateway issues for next draft (3 sept) [8]
15:41:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in