IRC log of swbp on 2004-08-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:57:34 [RRSAgent]

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13:57:57 [David_Wood]

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13:58:09 [Ralph]

Meeting: SemWeb Best Practices & Deployment WG

13:58:16 [Ralph]

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0021.html

13:58:22 [Ralph]

Previous: 2004-07-22 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Jul/0109.html

13:58:36 [bwm]

bwm has joined #swbp

13:58:40 [Ralph]

Regrets: Ben, Deb, Jacco, Natasha

13:59:05 [Zakim]

+Ralph

13:59:38 [Zakim]

+??P5

13:59:49 [Zakim]

+Guus

13:59:53 [Zakim]

+??P6

14:00:02 [bwm]

Zakim, ??p5 is bwm

14:00:02 [Zakim]

+bwm; got it

14:00:06 [Zakim]

+??P7

14:00:08 [Zakim]

+??P8

14:00:24 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p6 is Tom_Baker

14:00:24 [Zakim]

+Tom_Baker; got it

14:00:40 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p7 is Andreas

14:00:40 [Zakim]

+Andreas; got it

14:00:51 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p8 is Alistair

14:00:51 [Zakim]

+Alistair; got it

14:01:33 [Zakim]

+Tom_Adams

14:01:58 [Zakim]

+??P14

14:02:06 [Ralph]

zakim, ??p14 is Alan

14:02:14 [Zakim]

+Alan; got it

14:02:14 [guus]

zakim, ??p14 is Alan

14:02:16 [Zakim]

I already had ??P14 as Alan, guus

14:02:31 [Zakim]

+DanBri

14:02:36 [Alan]

Alan has joined #swbp

14:04:09 [Ralph]

zakim, pick a scribe

14:04:09 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Alistair

14:04:39 [libby]

libby has joined #swbp

14:05:12 [Ralph]

zakim, list attendees

14:05:12 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been David_Wood, Ralph, Guus, bwm, Tom_Baker, Andreas, Alistair, Tom_Adams, Alan, DanBri, Libby

14:06:01 [aliman]

guus: proposed to accept minutes of last telecon

14:06:19 [aliman]

accepted

14:06:36 [Ralph]

RESOLVED: minutes of 22 July telecon accepted

14:06:55 [aliman]

guus: next telecon is proposed for august 19 at 1800 UTC

14:07:04 [aharth]

aharth has joined #swbp

14:07:07 [Alan]

note: I shall have to drop out around 15:10 UTC Alan

14:07:32 [Zakim]

Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Tom_Baker

14:07:43 [Ralph]

... for next meeting

14:07:51 [Ralph]

DanBri: possible regrets

14:08:20 [Ralph]

Tom: suggest adding Urchin to applications page

14:08:26 [Ralph]

s/Tom/TomA/

14:08:29 [TomAdams]

Will handle in 6.7. Thanks.

14:09:20 [Ralph]

Topic: ACTION REVIEW

14:09:51 [aliman]

ACTION Tom Adams to send SSH 2 key to Ralph.

14:09:53 [aliman]

done

14:10:05 [aliman]

ACTION Deb to provide a link to the ontolingua units and measures

14:10:06 [aliman]

ontology by tom gruber.

14:10:07 [aliman]

done

14:10:16 [Tbaker]

I should be okay to scribe on Aug 19 but would appreciate seeing someone's raw notes as a guide...

14:10:18 [Ralph]

ACTION Ralph do an analysis of which WG participants have been able to attend at which meeting time.

14:10:22 [Ralph]

continue

14:10:27 [aliman]

ACTION David Wood, get back to Rhys Lewis that SWBP&D WG has interest

14:10:27 [aliman]

and will get back to him when we know more.

14:10:30 [aliman]

done

14:10:43 [TomAdams]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/Tutorials.html

14:10:46 [aliman]

ACTION Natasha to send note to SW interest group.

14:10:48 [aliman]

done

14:11:10 [aliman]

ACTION Tom Adams to work on tutorial page.

14:11:33 [aliman]

done (with content to be discussed further)

14:11:39 [Ralph]

ACTION: Ralph link the tutorial page from the home page

14:12:04 [aliman]

ACTION Brian & Jeremy to join wordnet mailing list.

14:12:23 [aliman]

done for Brian continued for Jeremy

14:12:41 [aliman]

ACTION Jeremy to review XSD FNO and SCD documents.

14:13:09 [aliman]

continued

14:13:18 [aliman]

ACTION Jeremy to add XSD FNO and SCD documents to TF reference list.

14:13:20 [aliman]

continued

14:13:31 [aliman]

ACTION Jeremy to check semantics on DAWG use of XSD in abstract query

14:13:31 [aliman]

model.

14:13:33 [aliman]

continued

14:13:49 [aliman]

ACTION Ben to solicit interested members in RDF in XHTML TF.

14:14:15 [aliman]

done

14:14:33 [aliman]

ACTION ralph CVS access for Aldo, Natasha, Tom

14:14:45 [aliman]

done for Tom, waiting for SSH keys from others

14:15:04 [aliman]

ACTION Guus to review aldo's wordnet proposal doc

14:15:11 [aliman]

done

14:15:50 [aliman]

ACTION Guus (1) is it the right type of approach? (2) alternative

14:15:50 [aliman]

ontoligies for units?

14:16:08 [aliman]

withdrawn

14:16:34 [aliman]

ACTION Ralph move VM TF description from

14:16:34 [aliman]

<http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Jun/0136.html>

14:16:34 [aliman]

into Group Web space

14:16:37 [Tbaker]

Tbaker has joined #swbp

14:16:40 [Ralph]

done

14:16:40 [Ralph]

-> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/VM/ SWBPD Vocabulary Management Task Force Description

14:17:02 [Tbaker]

Thank you Ralph

14:17:02 [aliman]

Topic: DIWG; URIs for units and MIME Types

14:18:12 [aliman]

guus: proposed to leave this issue and await response ...

14:18:19 [aliman]

from Rhys Lewis

14:18:28 [aliman]

RESOLVED

14:18:50 [aliman]

Topic: Location and schedule of F2F meeting

14:19:41 [aliman]

guus: options for Japan ... possibilities for room in same hotel as ISWC ...

14:20:07 [Alan]

alan - I shall be there

14:20:18 [aliman]

Zakim, who is here?

14:20:18 [Zakim]

On the phone I see David_Wood, Ralph, bwm, Guus, Tom_Baker, Alistair, Andreas, Tom_Adams, Alan, Redland

14:20:20 [Zakim]

Redland has DanBri, Libby

14:20:21 [Zakim]

On IRC I see Tbaker, aharth, libby, Alan, bwm, David_Wood, RRSAgent, TomAdams, guus, Zakim, danbri, aliman, Ralph

14:20:27 [aliman]

attendees at ISWC ...

14:20:34 [aliman]

David wood: maybe

14:20:48 [aliman]

Ralph: unknown

14:20:58 [aliman]

bwm: unknown

14:21:02 [aliman]

guus: yes

14:21:08 [aliman]

TomB: probably not

14:21:15 [aliman]

Alistair: unknown

14:21:21 [aliman]

Andreas: probably yes

14:21:29 [aliman]

TomAdams: probably not

14:21:38 [aliman]

Alan: yes

14:21:47 [aliman]

danbri: probably yes

14:21:52 [aliman]

libby: probably yes

14:22:37 [aliman]

guus: other locations?

14:22:43 [Zakim]

+Evan_Wallace

14:22:47 [aliman]

Ralph: no hard requirement re location

14:23:18 [aliman]

Evan at ISWC: no

14:23:52 [aliman]

guus: straw poll on the web?

14:24:22 [aliman]

ACTION: ralph & guus to set up straw poll as web form for location of next F2F

14:26:13 [aliman]

guus: N.B. likely that F2F after next will be at next tech plenary in boston

14:26:18 [Zakim]

+ +1.978.887.aaaa

14:26:30 [Alan]

Are dates known?

14:26:37 [Ralph]

zakim, aaaa is Bob_Powers

14:26:37 [Zakim]

+Bob_Powers; got it

14:26:37 [aliman]

Ralph: exact location for tech plen unknown

14:28:25 [danbri]

[unexpected caller, Bob, joins from http://www.east-shore.com/ ]

14:29:09 [danbri]

anyone unhappy with him staying?

14:29:56 [Zakim]

-Bob_Powers

14:31:29 [Ralph]

[we're not upset at the visitor, just surprised]

14:31:33 [danbri]

[+1]

14:31:43 [aliman]

Topic: Tutorial Page

14:31:53 [aliman]

Status from tom:

14:31:58 [aliman]

(tomA)

14:32:18 [aliman]

next step to use standard style

14:32:39 [aliman]

ongoing process ... maybe wiki in future?

14:32:55 [TomAdams]

http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/Tutorials.html

14:33:42 [aliman]

guus: include tutorials in list of TFs?

14:34:08 [aliman]

will anyone give TomA a hand?

14:34:30 [aliman]

Alan has links to OWL tutorials

14:35:29 [aliman]

ACTION: TomA to add links from last telecon to tutorials page

14:35:47 [aliman]

Topic: TF updates

14:35:54 [aliman]

Topic: OEP

14:36:18 [Ralph]

[suggestion for tutorial page: "URIs in your face" are not W3C style. better to have them as links with some description]

14:36:37 [aliman]

guus: Congrats on publishing 3 notes & lots of comments coming in

14:36:48 [aliman]

guus: separate list for comments?

14:37:01 [aliman]

Ralph: one list is OK

14:37:18 [danbri]

q+ to agree that its managable on current list

14:37:31 [Alan]

I am happy with one list for now. Let's see what happens

14:37:31 [TomAdams]

[Yes, thanks. I don't like them either, they were just my notes and I wanted to get it in CVS first, then work on cleaning them up.]

14:37:37 [danbri]

ack danbri

14:37:37 [Zakim]

danbri, you wanted to agree that its managable on current list

14:37:58 [Ralph]

[right, Tom; I suspected as much. "notes" is fine]

14:38:20 [aliman]

guus: qualified cardinality constraints ... Alan comments?

14:39:17 [aliman]

ACTION: Alan to respond to guus' document on qualified cardinality constraints

14:39:37 [aliman]

Ralph: what's next for OEP?

14:39:48 [aliman]

guus: units and measures

14:39:59 [aliman]

Alan: note on closure axioms

14:40:20 [aliman]

... short note indeed.

14:40:29 [aharth_]

aharth_ has joined #swbp

14:41:07 [aliman]

Topic: PORT

14:41:37 [danbri]

danbri: suggest listing alistair as TF coordinator

14:41:43 [danbri]

agreed

14:42:08 [danbri]

aliman: after we agreed to go ahead w/ phased dev of skos core vocab, i sent notes to public-esw-thes, RDF/SW IG list, and to NKOS thes list

14:42:16 [danbri]

...have been trying to kick off that process

14:42:26 [danbri]

...got some discussions going on, public-esw-thes,

14:42:34 [Ralph]

[if Alistair agrees to take the Coordinator role, I will so note on the home page and in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/thes-tf/mission ]

14:42:36 [danbri]

...expecting about a month of that before having something note-shaped

14:42:45 [danbri]

[ralph, pls do]

14:43:25 [Ralph]

[ok will do unless I hear objection from Alistair soon]

14:43:42 [danbri]

danbri: nice to have thes folk involved

14:43:53 [danbri]

...also interest perhaps here in the vocab maturity ns we're using there

14:44:08 [danbri]

aliman: one way of tracking status is the term status vocab (draft) adopted from foaf

14:44:15 [danbri]

...also looking at owl versioning features

14:44:30 [danbri]

...could bring that back in here, esp to Vocab Management TF, which is why I'm interested there

14:44:42 [danbri]

...perhaps ultimately to a Note re collab schema dev't

14:44:57 [guus]

q?

14:45:06 [aliman]

http://esw.w3.org/topic/SkosDev_2fSchemaManagement

14:45:14 [Alan]

Apologies - I have to go

14:45:23 [Zakim]

-Alan

14:45:57 [Tbaker]

Let's coordinate with VM, yes

14:46:08 [danbri]

guus: issues, eg ns management stuff, need coordinating?

14:46:24 [danbri]

... things like URIs, ns names, etc. would be covered by that TF

14:46:52 [Tbaker]

Strongly agree

14:46:58 [danbri]

aliman: the wiki link... i made that stuff up, talked w/ dan etc., as nothing like it seemed to exist (that I could find). Could/should feed into further discussions.

14:47:10 [danbri]

guus: when VM TF gets started, we might want to do some sync there

14:47:26 [David_Wood]

zakim, mute David_Wood

14:47:26 [Zakim]

David_Wood should now be muted

14:47:35 [danbri]

Wordnet TF

14:47:38 [danbri]

--------

14:47:41 [aliman]

Topic: Wordnet TF

14:47:45 [danbri]

Brian: I think we're hit by holiday period...

14:48:07 [danbri]

...I've not had much time, some actions still outstanding, not a lot happening currently.

14:48:24 [danbri]

guus: reading draft yesterday, seemed your note not 100% matching the RDF description

14:48:31 [danbri]

brian: may be correct, not deliberate

14:48:47 [danbri]

guus: eg you mentioned tag-count in the rdf...

14:48:52 [danbri]

...is that same as sense-number?

14:49:10 [danbri]

q+ to ask/mention multiwordnet

14:49:17 [danbri]

brian: it's really just a placeholder doc

14:49:22 [danbri]

guus: I'm happy to contribute

14:49:31 [danbri]

brian: great. any particular way?

14:49:39 [danbri]

guus: writing, revising, etc

14:49:48 [danbri]

...eg one issue is identifer policy re synsets

14:50:11 [danbri]

(see minutes from TF by jjc)

14:50:23 [danbri]

q?

14:50:40 [danbri]

http://multiwordnet.itc.it/

14:50:49 [danbri]

[[

14:50:50 [danbri]

MultiWordNet is a multilingual lexical database in which the Italian WordNet is strictly aligned with Princeton WordNet 1.6.

14:50:50 [danbri]

]]

14:50:55 [danbri]

6.4

14:50:56 [danbri]

---

14:51:06 [danbri]

JJC not here, he sent update re telcon he atttended.

14:51:10 [Ralph]

[ http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Jul/0065.html [WNET] TF minutes for 8th July [Jeremy 2004-07-20]]

14:51:25 [danbri]

6.5 Vocab Management

14:51:27 [danbri]

-------------

14:51:34 [danbri]

Tom: will start after summer

14:52:13 [danbri]

...cut down TF overview, want to revisit the extra text/ideas

14:52:22 [Ralph]

s/Tom:/TomB:/

14:52:33 [danbri]

....want to survey members of the group about how likely it seems for each item, whether it is in scope

14:52:45 [danbri]

...whether we think gut feeling is that consensus achievable

14:53:18 [danbri]

...v generally, I see a 'pt 1', ie. low hanging fruits, and a 'pt 2', more controversial issues, and summarise points of debate/disagreement, ie. where practice hasn't sufficiently matured.

14:53:34 [danbri]

...I propose to get back to the members of the group w/ survey on this

14:54:08 [danbri]

...to help set scope/priorities

14:54:14 [danbri]

...Ralph has posted TF description on the Web

14:54:18 [danbri]

...we're on track.

14:54:37 [aliman]

+1 on survey

14:54:37 [danbri]

danbri: method seems good to me

14:54:47 [danbri]

HTML/RDF TF

14:54:50 [danbri]

-----------

14:54:51 [Ralph]

-> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Aug/0020.html (minutes of) Re: Renewed RDF/XHTML task force - first telecon [DanBri 2004-07-04]

14:54:51 [David_Wood]

zalim, unmute David_Wood

14:55:02 [David_Wood]

zakim, unmute David_Wood

14:55:02 [Zakim]

David_Wood should no longer be muted

14:55:31 [Ralph]

DanBri: we talked about GRDDL and the XTML work

14:55:50 [Ralph]

... we were a bit surprised that a new XHTML 2.0 WD came out with the Birbeck proposal integrated

14:56:13 [Ralph]

... they described RDF again from first principles [without normatively referencing RDF]

14:56:42 [aliman]

guus: what should be the output?

14:56:58 [aliman]

danbri: revisit the requirements to help the html guys

14:57:04 [aliman]

QA the html guys spec

14:57:11 [Ralph]

DanBri... TF will be reviewing [sections 19 and 20 of] the XHTML 2.0 WD hoping to get feedback to Ben in 2-3 weeks

14:57:13 [aliman]

revisit test case method used ni rdf-core

14:57:23 [aliman]

also grddl note

14:57:27 [aliman]

?

14:58:05 [aliman]

Ralph: how much endorsement should this WG give to XHTML 2.0 and GRDDL proposals?

14:58:57 [aliman]

... hope to reach a consensus on whether to recommend/endorse these

14:59:08 [aliman]

... then can consider a note on how to use

14:59:15 [aliman]

guus: public expects guidance note

14:59:28 [aliman]

Ralph: met with html WG in march ...

14:59:42 [aliman]

they want feedback from thiw WG on bribeck proposal

15:00:02 [aliman]

... so we should give some feedback in timely manner

15:00:28 [aliman]

danbri: should have an XHTML -> RDF/XML parser soon

15:01:11 [aliman]

Ralph: evaluate XHTML 2.0 & GRDDL then look elsewhere

15:01:17 [danbri]

XHTML/RDF notation to RDF/XML, yes. (Max Froumentin is working on this)

15:01:41 [aliman]

David_Wood: V. important TF

15:02:06 [aliman]

... it would be a shame for XHTML guys to go in parallel to RDF

15:02:12 [danbri]

[see recent discussion in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/]

15:02:22 [aliman]

... encourages TF joining

15:02:35 [aliman]

guus: supports importance

15:03:38 [aliman]

David_Wood: risk is fork in the concepts ..

15:03:58 [aliman]

Ralph: so normative reference to RDF from XHTML needed

15:04:17 [aliman]

danbri: current XHTML spec doesnt ref RDF ...

15:04:24 [Ralph]

Ralph: it is important to normatively reference RDF to minimize misinterpretations about the semantics of the RDF/HTML syntax

15:04:36 [aliman]

... if RDF referred from XHTML then people can figure out how to use existing RDF vocabs

15:04:47 [aliman]

Topic: ADTF

15:04:48 [TomAdams]

public-semweb-lifesci

15:04:54 [TomAdams]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-semweb-lifesci/2004Aug/0003.html

15:05:13 [danbri]

[ralph, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf/ is out of date / misleading. Do you have a sense of what it should instead say? ]

15:05:24 [aliman]

TomAdams: nature released urchin

15:05:50 [aliman]

... propose to add as application?

15:05:58 [aliman]

libby: sounds plausible as app

15:06:03 [Ralph]

[I was just realizing that yesterday, DanBri; I'll work [with Ben] on updating the public-rdf-in-xhtml-tf header]

15:06:22 [danbri]

[thanks Ralph!]

15:06:32 [aliman]

libby: can give login to weblog to add apps and demos

15:06:37 [aliman]

... to toma

15:06:56 [aliman]

TomAdams: mindlab doing some work with urchin

15:07:23 [aliman]

ACTION: TomA get MINDLAB to write description of urchin for APDTF weblog

15:07:47 [aliman]

libby: happy to add things other people suggest

15:07:54 [danbri]

http://www.biopathways.org/semweb/RSS_WG/

15:07:55 [danbri]

[[

15:07:55 [danbri]

Urchin RSS/RDF case study from Nature

15:07:55 [danbri]

Contributed by Timo Hannay, Nature Publishing Group

15:07:56 [danbri]

]]

15:08:08 [libby]

please tell me stuff for the adtf :)

15:08:48 [guus]

q?

15:09:05 [aliman]

David_Wood: should add kowari to apps and demos section

15:09:27 [danbri]

http://www.nature.com/naturejobs/jobs/biologicalsciences.rdf ... Job vocab looks sensible. It keeps job advert and job distinct

15:09:31 [aliman]

libby: apps and demos not really about ap frameworks - higher level

15:09:50 [danbri]

as did http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/2000/11/rss-query/

15:09:57 [TomAdams]

More Urchin work: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-semweb-lifesci/2004Aug/0003.html, http://otn.oracle.com/industries/life_sciences/presentations/olsug_0402/olsug_0402_10Hannay_Nature.ppt

15:10:16 [aliman]

David_Wood: DC is an application

15:10:37 [aliman]

http://esw.w3.org/mt/esw/archives/cat_applications_and_demos.html

15:11:08 [aliman]

main esw blog http://esw.w3.org/mt/esw/

15:11:23 [aliman]

guus: propose to let go for a while then think about reorganising

15:11:36 [aliman]

David_Wood: same problem for TomA - how much to centralise info?

15:12:03 [aliman]

libby: wiki might have been better for ADTF ..

15:12:10 [aliman]

... because then anyone could add to it.

15:12:38 [Ralph]

[I write a note to myself to link esw.w3.org/mt/esw/archives/cat_applications_and_demos.html closer to ADTF on our WG page]

15:12:58 [aliman]

ACTION: Ralph to link ADTF blog from WG page

15:13:17 [aliman]

guus: move this useful resources up front?

15:13:24 [aliman]

David_Wood: these things should be periodically reviewed

15:14:13 [aliman]

meeting adjourned

15:14:16 [aliman]

thanks all

15:14:28 [Zakim]

-Evan_Wallace

15:14:29 [Zakim]

-bwm

15:14:30 [Zakim]

-Tom_Adams

15:14:30 [aliman]

next telecon two weeks 1800 UTC

15:14:32 [Zakim]

-David_Wood

15:14:33 [Zakim]

-Tom_Baker

15:14:39 [Zakim]

-Andreas

15:14:39 [TomAdams]

TomAdams has left #swbp

15:14:41 [Zakim]

-Redland

15:14:42 [danbri]

rrsagent, please make logs public

15:15:02 [danbri]

rrsagent, please make log public

15:15:05 [David_Wood]

David_Wood has left #swbp

15:15:08 [danbri]

rrsagent, please make log public

15:15:16 [danbri]

rrsagent, please make log world-access

15:15:38 [danbri]

i think 'bye' is the way to do it, if we're finish logging stuff

15:15:46 [Ralph]

Alistair, as soon as we dismiss RRSAgent from the channel he will dump the actions

15:15:53 [aliman]

thanks ralph

15:16:10 [Zakim]

-Alistair

15:16:16 [aliman]

bye all

15:16:18 [danbri]

ralph, i have this vague memory of having told rrsagent something other than 'bye' (maybe 'part', 'quit'?) where it left immediately without summarising...

15:17:28 [Ralph]

rrsagent, bye

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

I see 6 open action items:

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph link the tutorial page from the home page [1]

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-swbp-irc#T14-11-39

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: ralph & guus to set up straw poll as web form for location of next F2F [2]

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-swbp-irc#T14-24-22

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: TomA to add links from last telecon to tutorials page [3]

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-swbp-irc#T14-35-29

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Alan to respond to guus' document on qualified cardinality constraints [4]

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-swbp-irc#T14-39-17

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: TomA get MINDLAB to write description of urchin for APDTF weblog [5]

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-swbp-irc#T15-07-23

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: Ralph to link ADTF blog from WG page [6]

15:17:28 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/08/05-swbp-irc#T15-12-58