19:55:07 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 19:55:16 ppc = pocket pc :-) 19:55:26 Ciao Roberto_ppc :-) 19:55:50 Ciao Robertos 19:55:51 ciao dutch woman :-) 19:55:54 :-) 19:55:58 Hello Yvette 19:55:59 :) 19:56:01 :-) 19:56:11 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 19:56:11 ok, sh1mmer; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 19:56:25 4 minutes? My clock is off then 19:56:28 sorry for only irc 19:56:28 no phone here 19:56:43 jslatin has joined #wai-wcag 19:56:45 Hi all. 19:56:51 Hi John 19:57:01 hi michsel 19:57:06 hi john 19:57:34 WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started 19:57:41 +John_Slatin 19:57:54 bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag 19:58:20 hi everyone! i'm on the call too, first one there... 19:58:34 +??P1 19:58:54 +ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink 19:59:16 zakim, ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink 19:59:16 I don't understand 'ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink', Yvette_Hoitink 19:59:30 +??P3 19:59:37 zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink 19:59:37 sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink' 19:59:41 azakim, ??P3 is Bengt_Farre 19:59:49 zakim, mute me 19:59:49 sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink' 19:59:58 zakim, ??P3 is Bengt_Farre 19:59:58 +Bengt_Farre; got it 20:00:04 +??P4 20:00:14 Zakim, ChrisR is Yvette 20:00:14 zakim, I am Bengt_Farre 20:00:14 +Yvette; got it 20:00:15 ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre 20:00:20 zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink 20:00:20 sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink' 20:00:25 nabe has joined #wai-wcag 20:00:25 zakim, I am Yvette 20:00:25 ok, Yvette_Hoitink, I now associate you with Yvette 20:00:26 Zakim, mute Yvette 20:00:26 Yvette should now be muted 20:00:37 brilliant :-) 20:00:42 zakim, unmute me 20:00:42 Yvette should no longer be muted 20:00:54 +Michael_Cooper 20:01:19 +??P7 20:01:32 +[IBM] 20:01:42 zakim, ??P7 is Takayuki_Watanabe 20:01:42 +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it 20:01:50 +Wendy 20:01:58 + +1.202.492.aaaa 20:02:04 + +1.608.263.aabb 20:02:21 zakim, +1.608.263.aabb is Ben_and_Gregg 20:02:21 +Ben_and_Gregg; got it 20:02:25 Andi has joined #wai-wcag 20:02:27 Zakim, ??P1 is Tom 20:02:27 +Tom; got it 20:02:32 Zakim, I am Tom 20:02:32 ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom 20:02:51 zakim, +1.202.492.aaaa is Alex_Li 20:02:51 +Alex_Li; got it 20:03:05 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:03:05 On the phone I see John_Slatin, Tom, Yvette, Bengt_Farre, ??P4, Michael_Cooper, Takayuki_Watanabe, [IBM], Wendy, Alex_Li, Ben_and_Gregg 20:03:13 +Loretta_Guarino_Reid 20:03:15 zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink 20:03:15 +Yvette_Hoitink; got it 20:03:27 zakim, I am Takayuki_Watanabe 20:03:27 ok, nabe, I now associate you with Takayuki_Watanabe 20:03:45 +??P11 20:03:57 zakim, ??P11 Doyle_Burnett 20:03:57 I don't understand '??P11 Doyle_Burnett', wendy 20:04:02 zakim, ??P11 is Doyle_Burnett 20:04:02 +Doyle_Burnett; got it 20:04:03 +Sailesh_Panchang 20:04:04 I do not have credit in dialpad today, I agree with the publication of the 20:04:05 documents to TR 20:04:15 +Becky_Gibson 20:04:23 rellero: I will make sure to say that on the phone too 20:04:27 zakim, [IBM] is Andi 20:04:27 +Andi; got it 20:04:30 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:04:30 On the phone I see John_Slatin, Tom, Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt_Farre, ??P4, Michael_Cooper, Takayuki_Watanabe, Andi, Wendy, Alex_Li, Ben_and_Gregg, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Doyle_Burnett, 20:04:33 ... Sailesh_Panchang, Becky_Gibson 20:04:39 Becky has joined #wai-wcag 20:04:41 thanks Yvette 20:04:53 zakim, ??P4 is David_MacDonald 20:04:53 +David_MacDonald; got it 20:05:03 +[Microsoft] 20:05:15 zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta 20:05:16 +Mike_Barta; got it 20:05:17 zakim, who's making noise? 20:05:20 i just muted 20:05:23 zakim, who's on the phone? 20:05:24 On the phone I see John_Slatin, Tom (muted), Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt_Farre, David_MacDonald, Michael_Cooper, Takayuki_Watanabe, Andi, Wendy, Alex_Li, Ben_and_Gregg, 20:05:26 ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Doyle_Burnett, Sailesh_Panchang, Becky_Gibson, Mike_Barta 20:05:28 Yvette_Hoitink, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds 20:05:31 scano_ppc has joined #wai-wcag 20:05:33 zakim, mute Loretta 20:05:33 Loretta_Guarino_Reid should now be muted 20:06:03 brb 20:06:10 (cat jumped on pocketpc :-) ) 20:07:08 DoyleB has joined #wai-wcag 20:07:48 Meeting: WCAG WG 20:08:08 gregg has joined #wai-wcag 20:08:17 Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0249.html 20:08:22 Chair: Gregg Vanderheiden 20:08:50 Scribe: Wendy Chisholm 20:09:25 Topic: publication date 20:09:54 gv we have 4 documents to go through 20:10:55 order for discussion: html, css, wcag 2.0, gateway 20:11:21 aiming for tomorrow 20:11:39 if not, wac has secured webmaster resources for next wednesday 20:11:46 Topic: wcag 2.0 20:12:50 wac: defn authored unit, 4.1, 4.2 20:13:32 bc currently have the diwg defn. in the document 20:14:03 gv defn in our doc should be from diwg. if we think need to new term should work with diwg. 20:15:11 action: gv and bc write ednote for defn of 'autored unit' 20:15:16 David_MacDonald has joined #wai-wcag 20:15:55 4.1 and 4.2 - not a showstopper. wasn't intedned to change the draft. 20:16:12 asw no problem publishing the draft. however, need to wrestle 4.1 and 4.2 asap 20:16:22 gv don't think there was resolution on the discussion. 20:16:46 need to do anything to 4.1 or 4.2 for this draft? 20:17:03 nope 20:17:08 anything else for wcag 2.0? 20:17:43 resolution: group agrees to publish wcag 2.0 as is 20:17:47 Topic: HTML Techniques 20:18:17 summary of issues: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0256.html 20:18:38 response to john: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0268.html 20:19:15 I - Example for doctype includes meta refresh 20:19:43 no objection to update example 20:19:48 II - Graphics used as form labels 20:20:10 log in bugzila, deal with after publication 20:20:51 there was no specific technique, based on lack of 20:21:14 use strategy used in css where create placeholder and link to bugzilla? 20:21:15 perhaps 20:21:24 yh think tech ok, just need another example 20:22:07 js is it a tech we want to recommend? 20:23:06 action: michael add bugzilla issue for Graphics used as form labels 20:23:16 resolution: no change to draft, michael create bugzilla issue 20:23:24 III - Grouping radio buttons and checkboxes 20:23:42 mc. an oversight. did not intend to exclude. have placeholder text. need to expand later. 20:24:01 resolution: placeholder, expand on later. 20:24:13 action: john slatin write technique for Grouping radio buttons and checkboxes 20:24:20 IV - User agent support for optgroup 20:24:26 proposal: ednote 20:24:34 future: when have UA support info, address then 20:25:34 gv good to put a note. more comments on the list, people appear to be converging. 20:26:07 mc current wording: (reads) 20:26:11 gv is it known to create problems? 20:26:14 bc yes. tested it yesterday. 20:26:28 yh sure? 20:26:34 bc yes. tested it. even w/alt 20:26:40 down arrorw 20:26:59 gv if there is still debate, use "may cause problems" 20:27:17 V - Tab order 20:27:46 add editorial note and bugzilla issue 20:28:00 accepted 20:28:10 VI - Correction and proposed text for auto-submit combo boxes 20:29:10 VII - Information about user agents 20:29:13 ednote in intro 20:29:21 (VI - use michael's proposal) 20:29:28 yes - add ben's content to ednote 20:30:33 responses to john's email: 20:30:40 q+ to say "HTML techniques doc isn't valid HTML" 20:30:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0268.html 20:31:05 accept, "Short text alternatives for object element" 20:31:27 js general comment that change "text equivalent" to "text alternative" throughout the doucment. 20:31:55 js plus specific comment about "alt" on object element 20:34:02 +Kerstin_Goldsmith 20:34:29 +Paul_Bohman 20:34:51 action: mc replace "text equivalent" with "text alternative" 20:36:07 -Kerstin_Goldsmith 20:37:15 +Kerstin_Goldsmith 20:39:05 zakim, unmute me 20:39:05 Tom should no longer be muted 20:39:37 action: mc add ref to 1.1 from image-text-links technique 20:39:59 zakim, mute me 20:39:59 Tom should now be muted 20:40:07 explicit form labels 20:40:50 js 2 proposals: 1. delete that link. move to 1.3. 20:41:05 js 2. add a link about associating text alternatives w/input elements of type=image 20:41:42 zakim, unmute me 20:41:42 Tom should no longer be muted 20:42:21 mc agree with first 20:42:32 mc second - if don't provide alt. also a label issue. 20:43:33 action: wac delete link to "explicit form labels" from 1st gateway technique 20:43:46 provide alt for area 20:44:24 -Kerstin_Goldsmith 20:46:40 q+ to say "example alt-text in HTML techs 10.1 and 10.5 is appropriate?; alt='MyCompany' should be 'company logo'?'" 20:46:48 +Kerstin_Goldsmith 20:47:01 ack yvette 20:47:01 Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "HTML techniques doc isn't valid HTML" 20:47:54 ack takayuki 20:47:54 Takayuki_Watanabe, you wanted to say "example alt-text in HTML techs 10.1 and 10.5 is appropriate?; alt='MyCompany' should be 'company logo'?'" 20:49:01 proposal: combine "use client side image map" and "provide alt for area" into one technique named via john's proposal, "Provide text alternatives for selectable areas of client-side image maps") 20:49:11 action: mc change alt='MyCompany' 20:49:21 action: mc combine "use client side image map" and "provide alt for area" into one technique named via john's proposal, "Provide text alternatives for selectable areas of client-side image maps") 20:49:33 action: wac adjust link to html techs based on combination of client-side image map techniques 20:49:50 7. "deprecated" techniques - why include if deprecated? 20:50:15 js propose delete link from gateway, not delete the technique 20:51:06 action: wac delete link to deprecated techniques 20:51:35 bc propose ednote about types of techniques (optional, deprecated) etc 20:52:06 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0266.html 20:53:14 adopt ben's proposal 20:53:39 I am going to have to sign off is five minutes. 20:54:34 action: wac, mc add ednote to intros of gateway, css, html about types of techniques per bc's proposal 20:56:39 -Doyle_Burnett 20:57:37 ack david 20:59:21 action: MC remove diff markup from xml 20:59:39 -Kerstin_Goldsmith 20:59:47 +Kerstin_Goldsmith 21:00:29 gv editorial: ascii art - think it should say "star" instead of "start" 21:01:17 q+ 21:01:25 Topic: CSS Techs 21:01:40 wac only comments were from ben 21:02:00 yh viewing bug in IE 21:03:13 wac have handled ben's comments. other issues were proposals related to other documents. action items and resolutiosn already complete. 21:03:20 dm will send issues to the list 21:03:23 ack yvette 21:03:34 resolved: publish css 21:05:00 resolved: publish html as amended 21:05:01 Topic: Gateway 21:06:01 q+ say "Japanese IE does not display CSS tech doc. I don't know why but omitting the comment element in the 2nd line may solve the problem." 21:06:09 scribe: Yvette 21:06:20 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0239.html 21:06:28 First issue: different views 21:06:44 Tried different things 21:06:58 Techniques call: preference for third view 21:07:12 Wendy: like to propose to go with that 21:07:18 q+ to say "Japanese IE does not display CSS tech doc. I don't know why but omitting the comment element in the 2nd line may solve the problem." 21:07:19 reactions? 21:07:58 bc would like to create PDF or postscript version 21:08:13 in meantime create alternate similar to option 1 in addition 21:08:54 wc breaking up in chuncks gives people idea of where we're heading 21:09:05 wc people still confused by the numbering, different issue 21:09:27 wc anyone object to moving forward to break up in sections? ok 21:10:59 wc to give people better idea, we will include placeholders 21:11:22 wc just so you can see how it looks, no actual content for the moment, just ednotes 21:12:08 wc there will be seperate html files for each of those chapters but will not contain anything but heading and placeholder 21:12:22 wc anyone object? 21:12:29 wc noone objects, will move forward with that 21:12:44 wc question about testability in gateway 21:13:03 wc thinks we should mention that testability could be an issue 21:13:29 wc I will finish linking to HTML techniques. 21:14:00 wc After today's discussion, I worry that mapping may be subject to debate 21:14:23 wc will go through with this with John and if we have any questions will go to the list. otherwise we will include them 21:14:53 wc propose: John and Wendy walk through all the links and look for discrepancies or strange things. 21:15:02 ack taka 21:15:02 Takayuki_Watanabe, you wanted to say "Japanese IE does not display CSS tech doc. I don't know why but omitting the comment element in the 2nd line may solve the problem." 21:15:02 ack takayuki 21:15:35 tw: CSS document doesn't display in Japanese version of IE 21:15:42 ack David 21:15:47 wc: is in all versions, ben will handle that 21:16:02 dmd just posted an end-to-end review 21:16:41 dmd the suggestions are problems like mapping 21:17:31 wc seems david is looking at different doc, we've only included 1.1 21:17:54 wc we just did the links for 1.1 so people can see how it looks and make it easier to get reviews 21:18:13 js we did a lot of brainstorming in california and decided to just go with 1.1 first 21:18:56 wc back to current proposal: anyone expect problems with links from gateway to HTML? 21:19:12 -Kerstin_Goldsmith 21:19:25 wc many links, some even repetetive. Redundancy is fine, for example to links about alt for images 21:19:39 wc but concerned about issues js raised with confusing links 21:19:53 js will try to get something to wendy first thing tomorrow 21:20:20 wc worried that I'm thinking about publishing something that other people haven't even seen yet 21:20:28 +Kerstin_Goldsmith 21:20:50 tc problem seems to be with link text 21:22:09 wc main purpose of publishing the 4 drafts together so people can see how they link to each other and that there are more pieces than just WCAG and HTML 21:22:18 wc send signal that we have been working on that 21:23:11 wc it's about getting feedback: what do people find confusing? 21:23:40 wc you haven't seen the links, should that delay the publishing? 21:23:55 gv what is your concern? 21:24:35 gv people can look at it after the call 21:24:58 gv people can raise objections, doesn't have to wait a week 21:25:42 wc want to follow process 21:25:55 gv objections to go ahead? no 21:26:15 gv how much work yet? 21:26:16 wc Michael and wc still have some edits to do 21:26:47 gv suggestion: we approve the three we already discussed (WCAG, CSS, HTML) 21:27:04 and tentative approval for the gateway unless someone comes up with serious concern 21:27:52 gv consensus to approve gateway doc unless issue arises that wendy isn't able to address? yes 21:28:01 gv we did it! 21:28:08 fixed IE bug - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040726.html 21:28:23 gv will not be here next week, travelling 21:29:15 -Bengt_Farre 21:29:19 -Sailesh_Panchang 21:30:04 entire group sings 'happy birthday' to Andi 21:30:13 meeting adjourned on time :-) 21:30:13 -Mike_Barta 21:30:16 -Kerstin_Goldsmith 21:30:17 -Becky_Gibson 21:30:17 -Andi 21:30:18 -Wendy 21:30:19 -Loretta_Guarino_Reid 21:30:19 -Michael_Cooper 21:30:20 -David_MacDonald 21:30:21 -Ben_and_Gregg 21:30:22 yvette - thanks for taking notes! 21:30:23 -John_Slatin 21:30:25 -Paul_Bohman 21:30:27 -Tom 21:30:29 -Alex_Li 21:30:31 -Yvette_Hoitink 21:30:33 -Takayuki_Watanabe 21:30:35 WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended 21:30:37 Attendees were John_Slatin, ChrisR|Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt_Farre, Michael_Cooper, Takayuki_Watanabe, Wendy, Ben_and_Gregg, Tom, Alex_Li, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Yvette_Hoitink, 21:30:40 ... Doyle_Burnett, Sailesh_Panchang, Becky_Gibson, Andi, David_MacDonald, Mike_Barta, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Paul_Bohman 21:31:09 zakim, bye 21:31:09 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 21:31:14 RRSAgent, make log world 21:31:20 RRSAgent, bye 21:31:20 I see 12 open action items: 21:31:20 ACTION: gv and bc write ednote for defn of 'autored unit' [1] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-15-11 21:31:20 ACTION: michael add bugzilla issue for Graphics used as form labels [2] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-23-06 21:31:20 ACTION: john slatin write technique for Grouping radio buttons and checkboxes [3] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-24-13 21:31:20 ACTION: mc replace "text equivalent" with "text alternative" [4] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-34-51 21:31:20 ACTION: mc add ref to 1.1 from image-text-links technique [5] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-39-37 21:31:20 ACTION: wac delete link to "explicit form labels" from 1st gateway technique [6] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-43-33 21:31:20 ACTION: mc change alt='MyCompany' [7] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-49-11 21:31:20 ACTION: mc combine "use client side image map" and "provide alt for area" into one technique named via john's proposal, "Provide text alternatives for selectable areas of client-side image maps") [8] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-49-21 21:31:20 ACTION: wac adjust link to html techs based on combination of client-side image map techniques [9] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-49-33 21:31:20 ACTION: wac delete link to deprecated techniques [10] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-51-06 21:31:20 ACTION: wac, mc add ednote to intros of gateway, css, html about types of techniques per bc's proposal [11] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-54-34 21:31:20 ACTION: MC remove diff markup from xml [12] 21:31:20 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/29-wai-wcag-irc#T20-59-21 21:31:36 wendy, i didn't log any action items during the last part