IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-07-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:01:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:01:45 [Zakim]
14:02:07 [Zakim]
14:02:13 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:02:57 [Zakim]
14:03:58 [Becky]
Becky has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:11 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:12 [wendybrb]
wendybrb has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:24 [ben]
zakim, who is here?
14:04:24 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P3, Jim_Thatcher, +1.202.312.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, Takayuki (muted), Tim_Boland, [Microsoft], Ben_Caldwell
14:04:28 [MichaelC]
zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Janae_Andershonis
14:04:28 [Zakim]
On IRC I see wendybrb, ben, Becky, RRSAgent, jslatin, JimT, ChrisR, nabe, cookiecrook, Zakim, MichaelC
14:04:30 [Zakim]
+Janae_Andershonis; got it
14:04:30 [wendybrb]
i will be there in ~2 minutes. please check your email. *just* sent gateway drafts.
14:04:34 [Zakim]
14:04:44 [MichaelC]
zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
14:04:44 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
14:05:15 [ben]
zakim, ??P3 is Tom_Croucher
14:05:15 [Zakim]
+Tom_Croucher; got it
14:05:18 [MichaelC]
zakim, +1.202 is Alex_Lee
14:05:18 [Zakim]
+Alex_Lee; got it
14:05:34 [Becky]
zakim, I am Becky_Gibson
14:05:34 [Zakim]
ok, Becky, I now associate you with Becky_Gibson
14:08:33 [MichaelC]
jslatin, will you be joining by phone?
14:10:35 [Zakim]
14:10:53 [Zakim]
14:11:43 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:11:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom_Croucher, Jim_Thatcher, Alex_Lee, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, Takayuki (muted), Tim_Boland, Janae_Andershonis, Ben_Caldwell, Michael_Cooper,
14:11:46 [Zakim]
... Paul_Bohman, Wendy
14:12:23 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force
14:12:29 [wendy]
Chair: Michael Cooper
14:12:37 [wendy]
agenda+ gateway
14:12:41 [wendy]
agenda+ testing framework
14:12:44 [wendy]
agenda+ end-to-ends
14:13:00 [wendy]
zakim, take up agendum 1
14:13:00 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "gateway" taken up [from wendy]
14:13:34 [wendy]
14:18:24 [wendy]
wac goes through the issues in the message
14:18:45 [wendy]
tb is this normative?
14:18:57 [wendy]
tb how relates to test framework?
14:23:02 [wendy]
wac informative. not sure if needs to be objective or not. difficult to make appropriate text alternative objective.
14:23:10 [wendy]
tc views: prefer the 3rd - divided into chunks.
14:24:00 [wendy]
tc would like to see w/more information
14:24:23 [wendy]
bc each criterion has its own page. borrowed navbar from pubrules.
14:24:30 [wendy]
bc menus are generated dynamically
14:24:39 [wendy]
bc if another guideline in there, all the info would be generated.
14:24:53 [wendy]
tc could we generate an internal draft of the original source to see what it would look like?
14:25:06 [wendy]
bc we made some change to structure, so some editing needed, but could be odne
14:25:14 [wendy]
bg liked the 3rd one as well.
14:25:31 [wendy]
bg the numbering scheme is confusing. could like to see it at the top.
14:26:33 [jslatin]
appropriate text alternative is human-testable and sometimes machine-testable.
14:27:10 [wendy]
wac curious about how people feel with moving forward. realize just got 20 minutes ago, but curious about how much time people feel they need and about publishing the documents
14:27:24 [wendy]
mc have to delay everything?
14:27:50 [wendy]
mc techniques point back to guidelines
14:28:12 [wendy]
tc they are a collection, have been developed that way
14:28:17 [wendy]
mc do we want to slide by a week?
14:29:21 [wendy]
wac would like to avoid
14:29:50 [wendy]
mc, tc happy with what we have
14:30:30 [jslatin]
js ok with what we have
14:32:21 [jslatin]
but may need to add item abt multimedia to list in gateway
14:33:47 [wendy]
wac good point. not sure what it would look like - just a reference to guideline 1.2?
14:34:43 [wendy]
action: wac create placeholder technique, ednote "1.2 not covered in this draft" (similar to level 3)
14:37:28 [wendy]
action: wac include placeholders for 1.2 and at least one guideline for each of the other principles (to flesh out the TOC a bit more)
14:37:43 [wendy]
mc group leaning towards 3rd view
14:37:50 [wendy]
(slices view)
14:39:09 [wendy]
bc anything to do w/numbering as interim?
14:39:57 [wendy]
action: wac ednote about numbering, bc remove numbering for techniques
14:40:54 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
14:40:54 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
14:40:55 [Zakim]
I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
14:40:56 [Zakim]
2. testing framework [from wendy]
14:41:01 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 2
14:41:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "testing framework" taken up [from wendy]
14:41:17 [Zakim]
14:41:25 [wendy]
jenae's message:
14:41:47 [wendy]
ja less of a proposal, more of a "here's everything we can have in the test framework"
14:41:52 [wendy]
ja we need to figure out what should be in it
14:42:40 [wendy]
14:42:52 [wendy]
ja everything that could be associated with one test case
14:43:10 [wendy]
ja starting w/metadata section type: automated or manual
14:43:21 [wendy]
ja automated - write a script to automate it
14:43:31 [wendy]
.. manual - person needs to decide it if passes or fails
14:44:00 [wendy]
.. test level - just look at on a page or in regard to whole site?
14:44:20 [wendy]
.. if have 100 pp and all titles need to be unique, then test throughout "all" of site
14:44:44 [wendy]
.. anything that should be added?
14:45:13 [wendy]
.. next is test case: prereq - if there is a test that has to be run before this test?
14:45:35 [wendy]
.. pass and fail instructions
14:45:58 [wendy]
.. 3. Examples
14:46:20 [wendy]
.. 4. compatibility (test matrix from march comes into play here)
14:46:38 [wendy]
..5. resources
14:46:49 [wendy]
..6. status
14:48:02 [wendy]
.. could then sort by any of these fields. i.e., all test cases for img field, or all that work with jaws or ... etc. whatever can do in xslt. :)
14:48:25 [wendy]
tb requirement that the test files are validated?
14:49:03 [wendy]
ja that could be a test case. however, this isn't so much about format but here are the things we can commit to giving to our audience.
14:49:34 [wendy]
tb user interaction, i.e., prompt author for more information. a self-explanatory test purpose.
14:50:06 [wendy]
tb perhaps platform specific issues that the user will want more clarification. i.e., using a particular browser
14:50:17 [wendy]
ja that could be in the compatibility section. "if it fails on xyz, put that there"
14:51:15 [wendy]
tc human or automated - some tests are not automatable, but can show the user what highlighting.
14:51:42 [wendy]
.. may not be able to automate, but user could automate the bits used to show the author.
14:51:55 [wendy]
ja look at next file:
14:52:09 [wendy]
.. it's passed the 1st test, now you need to look at it and make a decision about which test should be run next
14:52:21 [wendy]
.. should it have a text equiv or be null
14:52:30 [wendy]
.. if null goes to a and if not null goes to b
14:57:27 [Zakim]
14:57:39 [wendy]
discussion about knowing where in the path you are given any file.
14:57:46 [Zakim]
14:57:59 [wendy]
e.g., H1.1.002 has prereq of H1.1.001.
14:58:22 [wendy]
the way jenae has created, there is a decision tree. if you pass 001 you go "left" and if you fail you go "right"
14:58:37 [wendy]
mc at each node there is a question that either leads to other nodes or terminates in an error report
14:59:21 [wendy]
question/issue about information where you are in the path or how to walk the user through. people feel that is an ert question. wcag should define the path and let the ert/au define how to implement.
14:59:36 [ChrisR]
UAAG test suite:
14:59:42 [wendy]
cr more info here than in UAAG. need to trim to that format?
15:00:07 [wendy]
cr how do we want to format it?
15:00:32 [wendy]
ja give people access to it, they write their own xslt to format it
15:01:17 [wendy]
mc element and attribute are html-specific. need a generalized way to handle that. e.g., "selector" and "property"
15:01:22 [wendy]
ja gateway may have own as well
15:01:29 [wendy]
mc other than that, could easily put in xml
15:01:40 [wendy]
cr assumed these were going to be html-specific. another set for other technologies.
15:01:44 [wendy]
mc framework should be the same
15:02:14 [Zakim]
15:03:58 [wendy]
other w3c test suites:
15:04:12 [wendy]
cr what do we need to do to satisfy the w3c QA process
15:04:19 [wendy]
mc execute the tests
15:08:50 [wendy]
discussion about purpose of the test suites: testing the guidelines, verifying the accessibility created by following the guidelines
15:09:16 [wendy]
js need user testing to get complete answer
15:09:31 [wendy]
bc everything that has a test file is required...however we're going to have many optional techniques
15:09:47 [wendy]
mc making sure that guidelines consistently interpretable
15:10:10 [wendy]
ja mapping the examples to html, it wasn't clear
15:10:30 [wendy]
ja we say short equivalent and short label - are those the same things?
15:11:11 [wendy]
js the short label for an audio file will be alt-text for an icon or screen text for what plays the audio recording
15:13:00 [wendy]
js said would like to have examples for each success criterion. (examples that are specifically associated with each criterion)
15:13:12 [wendy]
js e.g., heading, "this is an example of 1.1.a" etc.
15:13:32 [wendy]
js still in the example section, but calling them out as explicitly associated with
15:13:36 [wendy]
ja make it so!
15:13:46 [wendy]
bc the examples for 1.1 are written for the old criterion
15:14:00 [wendy]
bc there are several 1.1 bugzilla bugs related to that
15:14:40 [wendy]
mc when talking about testing files and interpreting guidelines consistently, going back to tool implementations, if chris implements in bobby and michael implements in bobby...will have different results.
15:14:52 [wendy]
mc the only way have consistent results is to develop to the test files
15:15:04 [wendy]
mc if want test files to validate interpretability, tey will define an interpretation
15:15:41 [wendy]
mc there are many differences: one uses a threshold of 60 chars another uses 150 on alt-text length
15:15:52 [wendy]
mc one prompts for "null alt-text or not"...
15:16:12 [wendy]
mc subtle differences...this is why cr wanted such richly defined test files
15:16:40 [wendy]
bc sounds like a scary road. if teach to a test, don't get useful results.
15:16:45 [wendy]
mc would push in that direction
15:16:49 [wendy]
js does consistent mean identical?
15:17:01 [wendy]
js at the F2F talked about "how long is short?"
15:18:41 [wendy]
mc another example: one tool is provide good alt-text another says provide alt-text and it needs to be xyz
15:19:05 [wendy]
mc could be argued that they are consistent, but the 2nd calls out in more detail
15:19:37 [wendy]
cr providing a specific interpretation is scary. however, people will have a clear idea of what we mean.
15:19:53 [wendy]
q+ to say "test files for diff languages? e.g., alt-text length"
15:20:31 [wendy]
js unavoidable that there will be different interpretations, that's not a bad thing.
15:20:39 [wendy]
js there are humans involved. :)
15:20:46 [wendy]
js we're trying to define a range of interpretation.
15:21:16 [wendy]
js i used to teach poetry. exercise: here's a poem, come up with the worst interpretation you can come up with. people come up withwacky stuff.
15:21:29 [wendy]
js so, you do believe that some interpretations are wrong? right.
15:21:34 [wendy]
js we're trying to define the floor.
15:21:47 [wendy]
mc could need more test files to cover the range.
15:22:27 [wendy]
ack wendy
15:22:27 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "test files for diff languages? e.g., alt-text length"
15:22:35 [wendy]
stunned silence
15:22:58 [wendy]
add language to metadata for test cases?
15:23:05 [wendy]
cr for each language that wcag is translated into
15:23:30 [wendy]
wac - re: lang - would need sets of test files for each language, e.g., 150 for english, 1/2 that for german?
15:23:43 [wendy]
js a diff set of requirements might have diff set of numbers
15:25:14 [wendy]
wac perhaps part of metadata: this test can be modified to suit your situation vs this test can not be modified
15:25:26 [wendy]
js configurable by the end user
15:25:35 [wendy]
bc and note the rationale for those
15:25:51 [wendy]
bc 150 may be good measure for current technology quirks, but we may update in future as tech changes
15:26:09 [wendy]
js contextual as well. i don't want to hear 150 alt text for an img on every page
15:26:21 [wendy]
js that is in that line between usability and accessibility
15:26:28 [wendy]
cr the guidelines are open to interpretation.
15:26:39 [wendy]
cr someone could say "images don't have to have alt-text, you can describe them someplace else"
15:26:58 [wendy]
cr we're saying "every img must have an alt-text" if don't like, then suggest a change.
15:27:03 [wendy]
cr it is required of us to provide an interpretation
15:27:31 [wendy]
js agree. question is, "how to we avoid creating canonical interpretations that are more rigid that what we are comfortable with"
15:27:44 [wendy]
mc techniques and test files are not normative, therefore, despite all the work, this is our interpretation
15:28:04 [wendy]
mc if you have a good reason, you could create your own, but we feel we've done a good job
15:29:05 [wendy]
cr number of characters before it is suspicious
15:31:39 [wendy]
[returning to discussion about ja's proposals]
15:31:54 [wendy]
action: wac make sure ja's issues are entered into bugzilla (
15:32:04 [Zakim]
15:32:10 [Zakim]
15:33:09 [wendy]
action 4 = wac help ja entered issues into bugzilla
15:34:06 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world
15:37:12 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
15:37:12 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Takayuki (muted), Janae_Andershonis, Ben_Caldwell, Paul_Bohman, Wendy, John_Slatin
15:39:01 [wendy]
zakim, close this item
15:39:01 [Zakim]
agendum 2 closed
15:39:02 [Zakim]
I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:39:03 [Zakim]
3. end-to-ends [from wendy]
15:39:33 [Zakim]
15:41:01 [wendy]
bc do we want to do somethin gin css and html to tie back to gateway?
15:41:06 [wendy]
bc want to show the relationships better
15:41:29 [Zakim]
15:44:01 [wendy]
action: ben work on xslt to link from html and css back to gateway
15:44:44 [Zakim]
15:44:45 [Zakim]
15:44:46 [Zakim]
15:44:47 [Zakim]
15:44:48 [Zakim]
15:44:49 [Zakim]
15:45:19 [Zakim]
15:45:20 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:45:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were Jim_Thatcher, +1.202.312.aaaa, Becky_Gibson, James_Craig, Chris_Ridpath, Takayuki, Tim_Boland, Ben_Caldwell, Janae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Tom_Croucher,
15:45:23 [Zakim]
... Alex_Lee, Paul_Bohman, Wendy, John_Slatin
15:45:50 [nabe]
Wendy, thank you for mentioning international problem on "short" alt-text
15:46:01 [wendy]
:) your welceom
15:46:10 [wendy]
15:46:36 [nabe]
good bye
15:46:47 [nabe]
nabe has left #wai-wcag
16:17:48 [cookiecrook]
cookiecrook has left #wai-wcag
16:40:18 [ben]
ben has left #wai-wcag
16:55:04 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items:
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac create placeholder technique, ednote "1.2 not covered in this draft" (similar to level 3) [1]
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac include placeholders for 1.2 and at least one guideline for each of the other principles (to flesh out the TOC a bit more) [2]
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac ednote about numbering, bc remove numbering for techniques [3]
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wac help ja entered issues into bugzilla [4]
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben work on xslt to link from html and css back to gateway [5]
16:55:04 [RRSAgent]
recorded in