IRC log of dawg on 2004-07-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:17:43 [RRSAgent]
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14:23:40 [SimonR]
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14:25:10 [howardk]
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14:25:28 [kendall]
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14:25:36 [AndyS]
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14:26:39 [Yoshio]
Yoshio has joined #dawg
14:27:07 [ericP]
hi danc
14:27:11 [ericP]
14:27:44 [DanC]
a WG telcon in 2min
14:27:52 [KevinW]
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14:27:53 [JanneS]
JanneS has joined #dawg
14:28:25 [HiroyukiS]
HiroyukiS has joined #DAWG
14:28:34 [DaveB]
DaveB has joined #dawg
14:29:47 [TomAdams]
TomAdams has joined #dawg
14:30:18 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #dawg
14:30:26 [AndyS]
AndyS has joined #dawg
14:30:32 [TomAdams]
TomAdams has joined #dawg
14:30:59 [DBscribe]
Zakim, this is dawg
14:30:59 [Zakim]
ok, DBscribe; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM
14:31:11 [DBscribe]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:31:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HowardK, Yoshio, ??P24, ??P25, +44.207.395.aaaa, Kevin
14:31:20 [Zakim]
14:31:21 [thompsonbry]
thompsonbry has joined #dawg
14:31:23 [Zakim]
14:31:24 [DBscribe]
Zakim, ??P24 is DaveB
14:31:24 [Zakim]
+DaveB; got it
14:31:27 [AndyS]
zakim, ??p26 is AndyS
14:31:27 [Zakim]
+AndyS; got it
14:31:41 [Zakim]
14:31:43 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:31:43 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:32:04 [DBscribe]
Zakim, ??P25 is JanneS
14:32:04 [Zakim]
+JanneS; got it
14:32:04 [TomAdams]
Zakim, David_Wood|Tom_Adams is Tom_Adams
14:32:05 [Zakim]
sorry, TomAdams, I do not recognize a party named 'David_Wood|Tom_Adams'
14:32:31 [DBscribe]
agenda for today
14:32:35 [TomAdams]
zakim, mute me
14:32:35 [Zakim]
sorry, TomAdams, I do not see a party named 'TomAdams'
14:32:37 [Zakim]
14:32:39 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 1
14:32:39 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Convene, take roll, review record, agenda" taken up [from DanC]
14:32:53 [Zakim]
14:32:54 [DBscribe]
Zakim, aaaa is HowardK
14:32:54 [Zakim]
+HowardK; got it
14:33:12 [rob]
rob has joined #dawg
14:33:35 [Zakim]
14:33:40 [TomAdams]
Zakim, David_Wood\|Tom_Adams is Tom_Adams
14:33:40 [Zakim]
sorry, TomAdams, I do not recognize a party named 'David_Wood\|Tom_Adams'
14:34:02 [SimonR]
14:34:02 [TomAdams]
Zakim, David_WoodTom_Adams is Tom_Adams
14:34:02 [Zakim]
+Tom_Adams; got it
14:34:09 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:34:09 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:34:41 [Zakim]
14:34:56 [Zakim]
14:35:20 [SimonR]
Zakim, mute me
14:35:20 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonR, I do not see a party named 'SimonR'
14:35:57 [DanC]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
14:35:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see HowardK, Yoshio, DaveB, JanneS, AndyS, Kendall_Clark, Tom_Adams, BryanT, HiroyukiS_SimonR, DanC, EricP, RobS, HowardK.a, Kevin
14:36:23 [rob]
Who are the two howards?
14:36:38 [DBscribe]
one is Hiroyuki
14:36:49 [DBscribe]
regrets SteveH, AlbertoR
14:37:07 [SimonR]
I have a wretched cough at the moment, so it'd be best if I could be muted. :/
14:37:49 [SimonR]
Yay! I'm me. :) And quiet.
14:37:56 [kendall]
14:38:12 [DBscribe]
re minutes of 2004-07-20
14:38:13 [DanC]
ammendment andys
14:38:29 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:38:29 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:38:40 [DanC]
ammendment danc
14:39:07 [DBscribe]
minutes approved with 2 amendments above
14:39:12 [DBscribe]
14:39:26 [DBscribe]
donm 2004-08-02
14:39:28 [DBscribe]
scribe EricP
14:39:55 [DBscribe]
correction, donm 2004-08-03 tuesday
14:40:00 [DBscribe]
danc to chair
14:40:05 [DBscribe]
ericp to scribe
14:40:20 [DBscribe]
EricP action tech plenary schedule item continued
14:40:27 [DanC]
agenda + spec development
14:40:44 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:40:44 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:40:49 [kendall]
14:40:55 [DanC]
agenda + union query
14:41:08 [DanC]
agenda + federation use case
14:41:33 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:41:33 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "Test development/maintenance" taken up [from DanC]
14:41:38 [JosD]
JosD has joined #dawg
14:42:08 [Zakim]
14:43:45 [DanC]
ACTION Jos: discuss test suite documentation and maintenance with Steve, EricP, AndyS, ...
14:44:01 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
14:44:01 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
14:44:11 [JosD]
14:44:35 [DBscribe]
DaveB gave outline of work on test cases docs, supprorting vocabs
14:44:41 [DBscribe]
still under discussion and working on docs.
14:44:51 [DBscribe]
AndyS has something that may appear soon
14:45:24 [DBscribe]
work to continue, reports to email list
14:45:35 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
14:45:35 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
14:45:43 [AndyS]
We (EricP, SteveH, DaveB and anyone interested) should meet again on IRC
14:45:59 [DBscribe]
DanC offered to outline how making, recording tests happen
14:46:06 [kendall]
hmm, that's not been my experience :>
14:46:06 [DBscribe]
and did so
14:46:43 [DBscribe]
wg discusses issues, hopefully with a test
14:47:06 [DBscribe]
test case people put it into test case pile, and if/when wg makes a decision, gets recorded as approved in the suite
14:47:32 [DBscribe]
RobS(?): tests for boundary conditions?
14:47:41 [rob]
not me
14:47:44 [DBscribe]
DanC: yes, if people wrote it
14:47:46 [AndyS]
(or we can wait until current actions make progress (e.g. examples checked in using new vocabs))
14:47:46 [ericP]
(Bryan T)
14:47:57 [DBscribe]
Q from BryanT
14:48:03 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
14:48:03 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Web Services Directory use cases" taken up [from DanC]
14:48:42 [DanC]
ACTION: RobS write email to Farrukh about traversing a taxonomy. some progress. continues.
14:48:58 [DBscribe]
in progress
14:49:34 [DBscribe]
re JimH action on uddi/WS
14:49:35 [DanC]
. ACTION: JimH, to work with Bijan to do some sort of UDDI/Web services use case
14:50:25 [DBscribe]
14:50:30 [DanC]
ACTION: JimH, to work with Bijan to do some sort of UDDI/Web services use case. continues.
14:51:22 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 8
14:51:22 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "spec development" taken up [from DanC]
14:51:24 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 9
14:51:24 [Zakim]
agendum 9. "union query" taken up [from DanC]
14:51:28 [SimonR]
zakim, unmute me
14:51:28 [Zakim]
sorry, SimonR, I do not see a party named 'SimonR'
14:51:49 [SimonR]
(Does 61# unmute me?)
14:51:58 [DanC]
Zakim, unmute simon
14:51:58 [Zakim]
sorry, DanC, I do not see a party named 'simon'
14:52:01 [kendall]
14:52:04 [DanC]
60# to unmute
14:52:10 [DanC]
on union query
14:52:54 [DBscribe]
SimonR discusses above
14:53:02 [DBscribe]
rdf semantics defines a graph merge
14:53:42 [kendall]
3 possible 'last minute adds': simon's rewrite of 4.5, federated use case, limited complexity req/obj
14:53:55 [DBscribe]
scaling issues - merging large graphs
14:54:05 [DBscribe]
and merging distributed graphs
14:54:41 [Yoshio]
to actually merge or to pretend to do so is an implementation issue, I think
14:56:38 [DBscribe]
proposed as an objective
14:57:07 [DBscribe]
2 things - aggregate & union query
14:57:26 [rob]
My point was that simple forms of aggregate query can actually hurt the larger goals of the semantic web.
14:57:43 [rob]
And thus a query language with this feature is worse than one without
14:57:50 [AndyS]
+1 to Kendall - I don't understand why 4.5 (old) is replaces - I expected two DObjs to aid discussion
14:58:03 [ericP]
+1 to less intuitive
14:58:10 [ericP]
(SimonR's point)
14:59:47 [DBscribe]
confirm we are discussing 4.5 aggregate query
14:59:54 [DBscribe]
current status pending
15:01:00 [Yoshio]
so we are not discussing union query now
15:01:27 [DanC]
yes, we are
15:02:26 [DBscribe]
we should rename 4.5 to union query or have a subtitle or somenthng
15:03:12 [kendall]
db: why on earth would we do that? simon's new wording hasn't gone into the document yet.
15:03:14 [DanC]
2/ 3/ 4
15:03:31 [Yoshio]
Mmm, I don't follow
15:03:34 [DBscribe]
yeah but aggregation & aggregate are hard to distinuish vocally
15:03:36 [SimonR]
That's a clear lack of critical mass. But I'll still declare victory. ;)
15:04:05 [kendall]
db: yes, that's a good point.
15:04:15 [kendall]
but i'll respond to that by changing 4.2's title
15:04:17 [kendall]
i think
15:04:20 [DBscribe]
15:06:23 [DBscribe]
ACTION SimonR: continue discussing and promoting Union QUery for 4.5 UC
15:06:45 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 10
15:06:45 [Zakim]
agendum 10. "federation use case" taken up [from DanC]
15:07:23 [DanC]
federation use case
15:07:32 [DBscribe]
KendallC inclined to include above
15:07:49 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:07:49 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:08:02 [Yoshio]
Eric's federation, couldn't it be regarded as a way to acheive a union query?
15:09:09 [DBscribe]
making the results, by more like scripting them
15:09:31 [DanC]
ack kendall
15:09:38 [ericP]
Yoshio, I think it requires union query.
15:09:57 [Yoshio]
requires? I think the other way
15:10:03 [rob]
i think it motivates several things, but there are a lot of ways to do it
15:10:23 [rob]
it motivates a "and then query cddb" feature, too
15:10:44 [Yoshio]
do you mean "union query" by "it", rob?
15:10:48 [DBscribe]
KendallC was intending to remove the query syntax when it goes in as a UC
15:10:56 [rob]
it==this use case
15:10:59 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:10:59 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:11:03 [kendall]
sorry, need to finish this phone call
15:11:59 [DBscribe]
ericp intended to motivate two thjings - 1) targetting the query to multiple sources, 2) the union of the graphs rather than the union of the results
15:13:21 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 4
15:13:21 [Zakim]
agendum 4. "Toward updated Use Cases and Requirements publication" taken up [from DanC]
15:13:36 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:13:36 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:13:44 [DanC]
DONE Kendall: remove 4.4 User-specifiable Serialization
15:13:57 [DanC]
DONE KendallC: draft revision, toward updating our public WD, delivery
15:14:11 [DanC] $Revision: 1.128 $ of $Date: 2004/07/27 00:01:07 $
15:15:04 [DanC]
ACTION Simon+Kendall elaborate the rel. of rules and "construct" in the UC&R doc.
15:15:06 [DBscribe]
15:15:12 [DanC]
DONE: ACTION SimonR: offer a replacement for 4.5 focussed on union query.
15:15:13 [ericP]
kendall, i can work with you on rewording the federation use case if you'd like.
15:15:22 [DanC]
ACTION SimonR: offer a replacement for 4.5 focussed on union query. lots of progress; continues.
15:15:29 [kendall]
ericp: i'll draft something and send it to you before putting into doc
15:15:30 [DanC]
DONE: ACTION ericP: send federation use case motivating premises (in Algae)
15:15:45 [DanC]
agenda + reply to chrisw
15:15:57 [ericP]
kendall, i'm happy commenting on it as it's in the doc too. whatever.
15:16:05 [kendall]
ericp: coolio
15:16:19 [JanneS]
phone running out of juice soon...
15:17:07 [DBscribe]
could I ask for 'removed' such as 4.4 to have a bit more info? WG decided against it or was it withdrawn? I assume i could dig in the minutes to find it
15:18:53 [kendall]
dbscribe: i offered to remove it at the f2f
15:18:58 [TomAdams]
I'm happy with that...
15:19:37 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish UC&R ala 1.128 + edits drafted by kendal, reviewed by RobS, and OK'd by EricP
15:19:58 [kendall]
HowardK also said he'd review
15:20:10 [kendall]
thanks, howard
15:20:15 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish UC&R ala 1.128 + edits drafted by kendal, reviewed by RobS and HowardK, and OK'd by EricP
15:20:26 [DanC]
PROPOSED: to publish UC&R ala 1.128 + edits drafted by kendall, reviewed by RobS and HowardK, and OK'd by EricP
15:20:39 [TomAdams]
I'm happy with that...
15:20:47 [SimonR]
I'm in favor.
15:20:58 [DBscribe]
so resolved - no abstain, no against
15:21:50 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
15:21:50 [Zakim]
I see 9 items remaining on the agenda:
15:21:51 [Zakim]
3. Web Services Directory use cases [from DanC]
15:21:52 [Zakim]
4. Toward updated Use Cases and Requirements publication [from DanC]
15:21:54 [Zakim]
5. SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management [from DanC]
15:21:56 [Zakim]
6. Issue: DESCRIBE [from DanC]
15:21:57 [Zakim]
7. XQuery integration requirements/objective [from DanC]
15:21:58 [Zakim]
8. spec development [from DanC]
15:21:59 [DanC]
Zakim, close agendum 3
15:22:00 [Zakim]
9. union query [from DanC]
15:22:01 [Zakim]
10. federation use case [from DanC]
15:22:02 [Zakim]
11. reply to chrisw [from DanC]
15:22:03 [Zakim]
agendum 3 closed
15:22:05 [Zakim]
I see 8 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:22:06 [DanC]
Zakim, close agendum 4
15:22:07 [Zakim]
4. Toward updated Use Cases and Requirements publication [from DanC]
15:22:09 [Zakim]
agendum 4 closed
15:22:11 [Zakim]
I see 7 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:22:11 [DanC]
Zakim, close agendum 9
15:22:13 [Zakim]
5. SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management [from DanC]
15:22:15 [Zakim]
agendum 9 closed
15:22:15 [DanC]
Zakim, close agendum 1
15:22:17 [DanC]
Zakim, close agendum 10
15:22:17 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:22:19 [Zakim]
5. SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management [from DanC]
15:22:21 [Zakim]
agendum 1 closed
15:22:23 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:22:25 [Zakim]
5. SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management [from DanC]
15:22:27 [DanC]
Zakim, take up agendum 11
15:22:27 [Zakim]
agendum 10 closed
15:22:29 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
15:22:31 [Zakim]
5. SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management [from DanC]
15:22:31 [kendall]
zakim, STFU! :>
15:22:33 [Zakim]
agendum 11. "reply to chrisw" taken up [from DanC]
15:22:35 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'STFU! :>', kendall
15:22:57 [DBscribe]
(Also see regrets from Farrukh just arrived to list)
15:23:08 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:23:08 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:23:48 [DBscribe]
continued action for TomA, reply to Chris Wilper
15:23:50 [DanC]
ACTION: TomA draft a reply to Chris Wilper and send draft to WG mailing list. progress; continues.
15:25:21 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:25:21 [Zakim]
agendum 5. "SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management" taken up [from DanC]
15:25:55 [DBscribe]
tomA, also reply to Bjorn
15:26:07 [DBscribe]
correction, draft a reply to Bjorn, send to list
15:26:14 [DanC]
Zakim, agendum?
15:26:14 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, DanC.
15:26:21 [DanC]
Zakim, agenda?
15:26:21 [Zakim]
I see 4 items remaining on the agenda:
15:26:22 [Zakim]
5. SOURCE, "provenance"/data-management [from DanC]
15:26:23 [Zakim]
6. Issue: DESCRIBE [from DanC]
15:26:24 [Zakim]
7. XQuery integration requirements/objective [from DanC]
15:26:25 [Zakim]
8. spec development [from DanC]
15:26:33 [kendall]
zakim, unmute me
15:26:33 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should no longer be muted
15:26:36 [TomAdams]
15:27:17 [DBscribe]
JosD action re log:includes DONE
15:27:39 [DBscribe]
ACTION DanC: explain evolution of log:semantics/log:includes ... CONTINUED
15:27:45 [DBscribe]
ACTION DaveB: re redland context CONTINUED
15:29:18 [DBscribe]
ACTION DaveB: propose an way to address the SOURCE issue
15:29:49 [DBscribe]
discussion of issues lists
15:30:13 [DBscribe]
and resolutions can point to that discussion
15:30:42 [DBscribe]
best if the decision connected up to the discussion and conclusions
15:31:04 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:31:05 [Zakim]
agendum 6. "Issue: DESCRIBE" taken up [from DanC]
15:31:58 [ericP]
some thoughs on provenance:
15:32:01 [DBscribe]
AndyS: no wording changed proposed now
15:32:43 [DBscribe]
consider AndyS's action done
15:34:33 [DBscribe]
motivating tell me about
15:34:42 [DBscribe]
- motorcycle parts UC
15:34:49 [DBscribe]
RobS asks for more motivation
15:35:26 [DBscribe]
TAP - EricP found coding against it difficult, given results are undefined
15:35:46 [DBscribe]
ACTION RobS: evaluate the DESCRIBE feature
15:36:17 [ericP]
does "if i can just comment..." mean "can i talk about this without getting an action?"
15:36:32 [DBscribe]
SimonR (?) difficulty of returning a graph with blank nodes, something like describe is one way to handle it. returning blank ndes is an issue
15:36:52 [DBscribe]
AndyS: yes re blank nodes, but describe is something different
15:37:48 [DBscribe]
issue for bnodes
15:38:09 [DanC]
ACTION SimonR: raise "returning bnodes" issue
15:38:22 [DBscribe]
AndyS, related with returning rdf collections and rdf containers
15:38:31 [DBscribe]
.. collections tend to have bnodes all over them
15:39:00 [Yoshio]
yes re: collections
15:39:52 [DanC]
NEW ISSUE: collections.
15:40:05 [DanC]
ACTION AndyS: write a little about the collections issue
15:40:14 [DBscribe]
... collections returned from a query
15:40:40 [Yoshio]
or how to make matches to elements in collections
15:40:51 [DBscribe]
EricP offers to drop issues in rq23 and give anchors for references
15:41:07 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:41:07 [Zakim]
agendum 7. "XQuery integration requirements/objective" taken up [from DanC]
15:41:35 [DanC]
ACTION DanC: notify Semantic Web CG of risks around the "1.5 Relationship with XQuery" scope of our charter.
15:42:04 [DanC]
ACTION SimonR: write a document discussing tradeoffs with adapting XQuery as an RDF query language for discussion thru the September meeting in Bristol.
15:44:42 [DanC]
discussion of implementing the design that was discuss in Carlsbad...
15:45:15 [kendall]
zakim, mute m e
15:45:15 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'mute m e', kendall
15:45:17 [kendall]
zakim, mute me
15:45:17 [Zakim]
Kendall_Clark should now be muted
15:45:21 [DanC]
WG notes with interest
15:45:30 [Zakim]
15:45:30 [DanC]
Zakim, next agendum
15:45:31 [Zakim]
agendum 8. "spec development" taken up [from DanC]
15:47:48 [Yoshio]
BTW, What's the telecon schedule in August? Just as usual?
15:48:11 [DBscribe]
10 aug DanC unavailable
15:48:14 [kendall]
unavail in mid-august for vacation
15:48:20 [AndyS]
Regrets for 17 August
15:48:28 [DBscribe]
JosD regrets 10 Aug
15:48:29 [Yoshio]
regrets from 13-23
15:48:32 [SimonR]
Regrets for 10 August as well.
15:48:45 [HiroyukiS]
regrets for 10
15:48:59 [DBscribe]
possible regrets for me 10 Aug
15:49:02 [DBscribe]
er, 17
15:49:13 [DanC]
RESOLVED: to cancel 10 Aug telcon
15:49:25 [DanC]
robs abstaining, ericp abstaining
15:50:19 [DanC]
15:50:26 [Zakim]
15:50:35 [DanC]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
15:50:56 [DanC]
DBscribe, anything else you need to draft a record in the next day or so?
15:51:05 [DBscribe]
15:51:11 [DanC]
very well. thanks.
15:51:45 [Zakim]
15:54:40 [TomAdams]
TomAdams has left #dawg
15:55:01 [Zakim]
15:55:04 [Zakim]
15:55:06 [Zakim]
15:55:11 [Zakim]
15:55:12 [HiroyukiS]
15:55:12 [Zakim]
15:55:17 [howardk]
15:55:19 [howardk]
howardk has left #dawg
15:55:20 [Yoshio]
15:55:21 [Zakim]
15:55:26 [Zakim]
15:55:30 [KevinW]
KevinW has left #DAWG
15:55:30 [Zakim]
15:55:32 [Yoshio]
Yoshio has left #dawg
15:55:34 [Zakim]
15:55:44 [Zakim]
15:56:58 [DanC]
p.s. regrets Farrukh Najmi
16:00:54 [ericP]
added issues appendix:
16:04:13 [AndyS]
+44 117 312 8181
16:04:43 [Zakim]
16:04:52 [ericP]
zakim, who is here?
16:04:52 [Zakim]
On the phone I see AndyS
16:04:53 [Zakim]
On IRC I see rob, AndyS, kendall, RRSAgent, Zakim, DanC, ericP
16:05:01 [ericP]
rrsagent, pointer?
16:05:01 [RRSAgent]
16:05:04 [Zakim]
16:05:05 [Zakim]
SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
16:05:07 [Zakim]
Attendees were +44.207.395.aaaa, Kevin, HowardK, Yoshio, Kendall_Clark, DaveB, AndyS, David_Wood|Tom_Adams, JanneS, BryanT, DanC, Tom_Adams, EricP, RobS, HiroyukiS_SimonR, JosD
18:56:58 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #dawg