IRC log of tagmem on 2004-07-26

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:58:46 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tagmem

18:58:50 [Norm]

zakim, this will be tag

18:58:50 [Zakim]

ok, Norm; I see TAG_Weekly()2:30PM scheduled to start 28 minutes ago

19:00:52 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has now started

19:00:59 [Zakim]

+Norm

19:01:02 [DanC]

I get 404 @ http://www.w3.org/2004/07/19-tag-summary.html

19:01:17 [Chris]

Dan - yes you do. Its not comitted yet

19:01:18 [Chris]

sorry

19:01:32 [Chris]

so we can't approve the minutes this week

19:01:56 [Chris]

nope, it will become true shortly after the call

19:02:10 [Chris]

tried to get it done before the call, gothalf way through

19:02:13 [Zakim]

+DanC

19:02:30 [Chris]

zakim, call chris-617

19:02:30 [Zakim]

ok, Chris; the call is being made

19:02:31 [Zakim]

+Chris

19:05:25 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

19:05:44 [Norm]

zakim, [Microsoft is PaulC

19:05:44 [Zakim]

+PaulC; got it

19:05:58 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

19:05:58 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Chris, PaulC

19:06:01 [PaulCotton]

PaulCotton has joined #tagmem

19:06:16 [Norm]

zakim, PaulC is PaulCotton

19:06:16 [Zakim]

+PaulCotton; got it

19:09:29 [DanC]

Regrets: TimBL, SW, IJ

19:09:37 [DanC]

Zakim, list attendees

19:09:37 [Zakim]

As of this point the attendees have been Norm, DanC, Chris, [Microsoft], PaulCotton

19:09:47 [DanC]

wondering about Roy

19:10:06 [DanC]

review of 19July minutes postponed until they become available

19:10:09 [DanC]

agenda seems OK

19:10:29 [DanC]

next week: NW regrets. PC regrets.

19:11:21 [DanC]

we don't expect SW is available 2 Aug

19:12:28 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to cancel 2 Aug telcon. next meeting: ftf 9-11 Aug

19:12:43 [Norm]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/08/09-11-tag.html

19:12:47 [DanC]

--- Ottawa meeting update

19:13:07 [Zakim]

+Roy

19:13:56 [DanC]

NW: toward having a good meeting in Basel, "Our goal for this face-to-face is to leave with a technically complete second Last Call working draft."

19:14:25 [DanC]

... aiming for publication [n]th of [month?] last call for about a month.

19:14:31 [Norm]

one month

19:14:49 [DanC]

ChrisL: have we started negotiating with peer groups about LC schedule?

19:14:54 [DanC]

NW: no; haven't started

19:15:33 [DanC]

PC notes I18N WG's recent inquiry about LC schedules

19:16:01 [DanC]

ACTION NW: respond to I18N's inquiry about LC schedules, noting TAG's evolving plans

19:16:33 [DanC]

PC: we're hoping to be able to edit the webarch doc during the meeting

19:17:28 [DanC]

NW reviews daily schedule in http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/08/09-11-tag.html

19:18:40 [DanC]

NW: we're considering inviting DaveO to participate by phone...

19:18:58 [DanC]

PC: I was in contact with DaveO; he's considering it among various obligations

19:19:12 [DanC]

... monday might fit his schedule better

19:19:29 [DanC]

NW: I'm open to monday if others are

19:19:46 [DanC]

DC: likewise

19:19:55 [DanC]

NW: I'll follow up.

19:20:24 [DanC]

PC: I expect DaveO to reply to your earlier message

19:21:47 [DanC]

PC asked about possibility of remote participation by IJ. DanC was thinking we encouraged him to focus on other things.

19:22:24 [DanC]

thanks Paul and NW for preparing the agenda.

19:22:53 [DanC]

===== Action Item List

19:23:24 [DanC]

Action NW: 2004/07/12: Write XMLChunk-44 as a finding. continues

19:23:37 [Norm]

ack danc

19:23:37 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to speak to XML Schema action

19:23:54 [DanC]

Action TBL/RF: 2004/05/13 Write up a summary position to close httpRange-14, text for document (need to reschedule httpRange-14 when TBL available-single issue telcon? guest?). CONTINUES.

19:24:28 [Zakim]

-PaulCotton

19:24:42 [DanC]

DanC: I asked the XML Schema WG for telcon time; haven't heard back yet...

19:24:51 [DanC]

PaulC: shall I call the chair?

19:25:09 [DanC]

PaulC is excused to call the XML Schema WG chair for a few minutes...

19:25:23 [DanC]

----- Web Architecture Document Last Call

19:25:56 [DanC]

NW: let's continue sorting into OBE, LC-critical, open

19:26:13 [Roy]

Roy has joined #tagmem

19:26:44 [DanC]

-- nottingham1: Second bullet doesn't make sense 1.2.1. Orthogonal Specifications

19:26:55 [DanC]

NW: doesn't look OBE

19:27:07 [DanC]

... relevant text is still there, though moved

19:27:15 [Zakim]

+[Microsoft]

19:27:52 [Chris]

I agree thatperformance is the reason in practice (parsing all content to look for headers)

19:28:14 [DanC]

PaulC reached Ezell, who has now seen the request and intends to answer presently, after consulting some XML Schema WG members.

19:28:35 [DanC]

NW: I'd like to be available Thu, but I see that I'm not. so I still prefer Fri.

19:29:16 [Norm]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2003/lc1209/issues.html?view=wg&closed=1&expert=1&editorial=1&clarification=1&stateAgreed=1&stateDeclined=1&stateSubsumed=1

19:29:24 [Norm]

http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#orthogonal-specs

19:29:42 [Norm]

perhaps

19:30:17 [DanC]

CL: suggest open. webarch makes a good point here.

19:31:24 [Zakim]

-Roy

19:31:34 [DanC]

... commentor says "it's not deployed because of performance"; perhaps so, but it's also a problem w.r.t. architecture

19:32:03 [DanC]

NW: so... nottingham1 open?

19:32:13 [DanC]

NW: so... nottingham1 open.

19:32:25 [Roy]

oops, was trying to say it was not a bad idea -- there is a lot more history involved

19:32:43 [DanC]

roy, is that re nottingham1?

19:32:47 [Roy]

yes

19:32:59 [Norm]

You've fallen off the phone, will you be able to come back, Roy?

19:33:01 [DanC]

do you want the TAG to discuss nottingham1 further?

19:33:19 [Roy]

later

19:33:23 [DanC]

we can stick it in LC-critical for now if you like.

19:33:35 [DanC]

i.e. schedule it for discussion later

19:33:38 [Chris]

we are saying that even if perfrmance was great, its still a level-breaking architecture problem

19:33:39 [Roy]

yes

19:33:57 [DanC]

ok, nottingham1 is LC-critical

19:34:33 [Zakim]

+Roy

19:34:36 [DanC]

-- klyne7 Use other schema than mailto as example

19:35:25 [DanC]

ACTION NW: take klyne7 as editorial.

19:35:46 [DanC]

-- klyne9: Add stronger language on not permitting unregistered URI schemes

19:36:50 [DanC]

CL: yeah... "is discouraged" isn't clear enough. "should not"

19:37:03 [DanC]

ACTION NW: treat klyne9 as editorial

19:37:08 [DanC]

PC: yeah, that text is still ther.

19:37:13 [DanC]

s/ther/there/

19:37:39 [DanC]

-- klyne12: Proposal to drop paragraph on inconsistent frag ids

19:38:14 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#fragid

19:38:26 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#media-type-fragid

19:38:43 [DanC]

NW: odd; greek letters are still in 3.3.1. CL: yes, see proposed text from my action. NW: good!

19:39:57 [DanC]

NW: we've re-written this; it's now in 3.3.2

19:40:11 [DanC]

(CL, you're welcome to write him individually)

19:40:26 [DanC]

NW: klyne9 is OBE.

19:40:43 [Chris]

yeah okay

19:41:10 [DanC]

NW: klyne12 is OBE. [rather than klyne9]

19:41:40 [DanC]

-- klyne17: Worth pointing out value of RDF descriptions depends on URI persistence?

19:41:56 [DanC]

CL: commentor not sure or something... NW: open, at least; we've re-written some.

19:42:29 [DanC]

NW: klyne17 open.

19:42:43 [DanC]

-- klyne20: Say something about relationship between Hypertext Web and Semantic Web?

19:43:23 [DanC]

NW: Ian 8Jun rev seems to deal with this. DC: yes, 4.6.

19:43:29 [DanC]

NW: klyne20 OBE.

19:44:18 [DanC]

-- klyne21: Add statement about scalability concerns

19:44:25 [DanC]

CL: fair point; hmm... I have an action

19:44:42 [DanC]

NW: klyne21 is LC-critical, to review CL's action

19:45:02 [DanC]

ACTION CL: Draft text to explain that there's a tradeoff in this situation. continues from 14 May 2004

19:45:23 [DanC]

-- klyne25 klyne25: Add reference to RFC3117, section 5.1?

19:46:07 [DanC]

"On the Design of Application Protocols" http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc3117.txt

19:46:31 [DanC]

sec 5.1 Framing and Encoding

19:47:03 [DanC]

DC: I'm interested to look at it

19:47:15 [DanC]

NW: klyne25 LC-critical.

19:47:32 [DanC]

ACTION DanC: report on study of RFC3117, section 5.1

19:48:06 [DanC]

PC: note BXXP is in the same design space as SOAP... CL: yes, there are probably lots of things written about "Why we did X with XML".

19:48:18 [Chris]

The pain of recreating this social infrastructure

19:48:18 [Chris]

far outweighs any benefits of devising a new representation. So, if

19:48:18 [Chris]

the "make" option is too expensive, is there something else we can

19:48:18 [Chris]

"buy" besides XML? Well, there's ASN.1/BER (just kidding).

19:48:36 [DanC]

-- manola17: "Agent" that includes "people" source of confusion

19:48:42 [DanC]

DC: I think this is OBE

19:48:55 [DanC]

NW: manola17 is OBE.

19:49:17 [DanC]

-- manola27: Provide examples of mistaken attempts to restrict URI usage

19:49:45 [DanC]

CL: yes, fair point... e.g. "we assume HTTP" in a format spec would be bad.

19:50:15 [DanC]

NW: manola27 is LC-critical

19:50:25 [DanC]

ACTION CL: draft example ala manola27: Provide examples of mistaken attempts to restrict URI usage

19:50:51 [DanC]

-- i18nwg5: Discussion of content-type header hint

19:51:04 [DanC]

PC: looks like nottingham1

19:51:36 [DanC]

DC/scribe: it's LC-critical.

19:51:55 [DanC]

NW: i18nwg5 is LC-critical, like nottingham1

19:52:47 [DanC]

-- i18nwg8

19:52:55 [DanC]

PC: looks worth discussion. CL: yup

19:53:14 [DanC]

RF: Ian's dealt with this, yes?

19:53:45 [DanC]

PC: yes, but let's look again.

19:53:51 [DanC]

NW: yes, let's look again

19:54:00 [DanC]

NW: i18nwg8 is LC-critical

19:54:14 [DanC]

-- i18nwg16: Good practice on URI opacity impossible to follow for humans.

19:55:01 [Norm]

zakim, who's talking?

19:55:11 [Zakim]

Norm, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Norm (9%), Roy (9%)

19:55:19 [DanC]

NW: we've changed to "SHOULD NOT"... OBE?

19:55:22 [DanC]

DC: either way...

19:55:29 [DanC]

NW: i18nwg16 is OBE

19:55:45 [DanC]

-- i18nwg19: text/foo+xml considered useless?

19:56:00 [DanC]

CL notes recent Internet Draft relevant to this.

19:56:07 [DanC]

... deprecates this.

19:56:41 [Chris]

rfc3023 revision: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Jul/0016.html

19:56:42 [DanC]

DC: worth reflecting in webarch? NW: I think we do already. OBE.

19:56:50 [DanC]

NW: i18nwg19 is OBE

19:56:51 [Chris]

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-murata-kohn-lilley-xml-00.txt

19:57:17 [Chris]

Major differences from [RFC3023] are deprecation of text/xml and

19:57:17 [Chris]

text/xml-external-parsed-entity, the addition of XPointer and XML

19:57:17 [Chris]

Base as fragment identifiers and base URIs, respectively.

19:57:22 [DanC]

-- i18nwg20

19:57:49 [DanC]

NW: hmm... same slug as 19...

19:58:45 [DanC]

CL: I can see how readers could come to wrong conclusions...

19:58:58 [DanC]

ACTION CL: propose text based on i18nwg20

19:59:06 [DanC]

NW: i18nwg20 is LC-critical

19:59:26 [DanC]

-- rosenberg3: Reuse appropriate URI schemes (and protocols)

20:00:21 [DanC]

"On the use of HTTP as a Substrate" http://rfc.net/rfc3205.html

20:00:37 [DanC]

NW: we have an issue on that...

20:00:49 [Roy]

/me I'll check the status of 3205 at next week's IETF

20:00:59 [Chris]

http://rfc.net/rfc3205.html

20:01:08 [Chris]

Says its a BCP

20:01:26 [DanC]

DC: ah; IJ did this.

20:01:40 [DanC]

NW: rosenberg3 is OBE

20:02:19 [Chris]

http://rfc.net/rfc3688.html

20:03:44 [DanC]

ACTION NW: incorporate reference to RFC 3688 per rosenberg

20:04:04 [DanC]

NW: and perhaps bump httpSubstrate up in priority for ftf discussion

20:04:27 [Chris]

If the registrant wishes to

20:04:27 [Chris]

have a URI assigned, then a URN of the form

20:04:27 [Chris]

urn:ietf:params:xml:<class>:<id>

20:04:27 [Chris]

will be assigned where <class> is the type of the document being

20:04:27 [Chris]

registered (see below). <id> is a unique id generated by the IANA

20:04:28 [Chris]

based on any means the IANA deems necessary to maintain uniqueness

20:04:30 [Chris]

and persistence.

20:04:47 [DanC]

-- rosenberg5: Proposed reference to IANA registry for namespaces and RFC 3688

20:05:26 [DanC]

NW: rosenberg5 is LC-critical. [cf action above]

20:06:14 [Roy]

Roy has left #tagmem

20:06:17 [DanC]

--------- TRIAGE DONE! -------------

20:06:51 [DanC]

-- schema12: [3.6.1] [3.6.1] Good practice: Available representation. Too preferential to dereferencable URIs

20:07:28 [DanC]

DC: note telcon negotiations in progress.

20:11:10 [DanC]

ADJOURN.

20:11:17 [Zakim]

-DanC

20:11:36 [Zakim]

-[Microsoft]

20:11:37 [Zakim]

-Chris

20:11:38 [Zakim]

-Norm

20:11:39 [Zakim]

-Roy

20:11:40 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended

20:11:41 [Zakim]

Attendees were Norm, DanC, Chris, [Microsoft], PaulCotton, Roy

20:12:14 [DanC]

RRSAgent, make logs world-access

20:13:07 [DanC]

Chair: NormW

20:13:10 [DanC]

Scribe: DanC

20:13:15 [DanC]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/07/26-tag.html

20:13:19 [DanC]

Meeting: TAG

20:13:44 [DanC]

Regrets: IJ, SW, TimBL

20:15:05 [DanC]

RRSAgent, pointer?

20:15:05 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T20-15-05

20:16:26 [DanC]

bummer... forgot to use Topic: so the gizmo doesn't build a TOC

20:23:18 [Norm]

Uhm, I didn't know about topic. Sorry.

20:30:18 [DanC]

RRSAgent, bye

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

I see 8 open action items:

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: NW to respond to I18N's inquiry about LC schedules, noting TAG's evolving plans [1]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-16-01

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: NW to take klyne7 as editorial. [2]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-35-25

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: NW to treat klyne9 as editorial [3]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-37-03

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CL to Draft text to explain that there's a tradeoff in this situation. continues from 14 May 2004 [4]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-45-02

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: DanC to report on study of RFC3117, section 5.1 [5]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-47-32

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CL to draft example ala manola27: Provide examples of mistaken attempts to restrict URI usage [6]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-50-25

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: CL to propose text based on i18nwg20 [7]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T19-58-58

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

ACTION: NW to incorporate reference to RFC 3688 per rosenberg [8]

20:30:18 [RRSAgent]

recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/26-tagmem-irc#T20-03-44