18:19:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
18:20:03 <wendy> Meeting: WCAG WG 1 July 2004 telecon
18:20:52 <wendy> Regrets: Roberto Scano, Roberto Ellero, Becky Gibson, Avi Arditti 
18:21:29 <wendy> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0885.html
18:23:31 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
18:23:56 <wendy> Chair: Gregg Vanderheiden
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19:48:04 <cookiecrook> is it cool to call in a few minutes before? when is the conf call initiated... thx.
19:48:25 <bengt> rssagent active ?
19:48:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
19:49:02 <bengt> zakim, this will be wai_wcag
19:49:02 <Zakim> ok, bengt; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
19:50:15 <bengt> cannot call in until zakim has opened channels ?
19:52:46 <rscano> rscano has joined #wai-wcag
19:54:34 <rellero> rellero has joined #wai-wcag
19:55:49 <rellero> hi
19:56:02 <rscano> hi
19:56:16 <rscano> roberto's are in train
19:56:21 <rscano> :)
19:57:39 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:57:46 <Zakim> +[ATTcaller]
19:59:23 <Zakim> + +1.512.542.aaaa
19:59:54 <MattSEA> MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
20:00:08 <cookiecrook> that's me... james craig
20:00:19 <Zakim> +Matt
20:00:30 <cookiecrook> 512-542-3581
20:00:54 <bengt> dont announce your full telenumber :)
20:02:22 <Zakim> +John_Slatin
20:02:48 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
20:03:04 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:13 <Zakim> +??P3
20:03:30 <bengt> zakim, ??P3 is Bengt_Farre
20:03:30 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farre; got it
20:03:32 <Zakim> +Wendy
20:03:41 <Zakim> +??P5
20:03:43 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see [ATTcaller], +1.512.542.aaaa, Matt, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, Wendy, ??P5
20:03:55 <wendy> zakim, +1.512.542.aaaa is James_Craig
20:03:55 <Zakim> +James_Craig; got it
20:03:56 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:04:02 <wendy> zakim, ??P5 is Ben-and-Gregg
20:04:02 <Zakim> +Ben-and-Gregg; got it
20:04:04 <Zakim> +[IBM]
20:04:09 <wendy> zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
20:04:09 <Zakim> +Mike_Barta; got it
20:04:17 <wendy> zakim, [IBM] is Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:04:17 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
20:04:20 <rscano> rscano has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:21 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see [ATTcaller], James_Craig, Matt, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, Wendy, Ben-and-Gregg, Mike_Barta, Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:04:27 <Zakim> +JasonWhite
20:04:28 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:30 <wendy> Bengt, are you ATTcaller?
20:04:42 <bengt> nope alread set up my name
20:04:42 <wendy> hmm. nope
20:05:00 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:05:22 <wendy> zakim, [ATTcaller] is Doyle_Burnett
20:05:22 <Zakim> +Doyle_Burnett; got it
20:05:42 <wendy> :)
20:06:17 <GVAN> GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
20:06:23 <rscano> wonderful follow by train :)
20:08:21 <wendy> Topic: [#832] Clear link text - priority and acceptability of supplement
20:09:11 <wendy> yvette's comments: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0009.html
20:09:23 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink
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20:09:58 <Yvette_Hoitink> Yvette_Hoitink has joined #wai-wcag
20:10:06 <Yvette_Hoitink> Hi people, sorry I'm late
20:10:11 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, who's on the phone
20:10:11 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', Yvette_Hoitink
20:10:29 <rellero> Hi
20:11:54 <wendy> yh before determine if level 1 or level 3, first need to decide what link text is
20:12:02 <wendy> Scribe: Wendy Chisholm
20:12:50 <wendy> yh what is the purpose? to help people who are blind or to help cog disabilities or both?
20:13:04 <wendy> michael's notes from agenda: * Proposal from Techniques TF to make clear link text under guideline 3.2 a
20:13:04 <wendy> level 1 - currently is level 3
20:13:04 <wendy> * Possible it was level 3 because of ability to use "title" to clarify - but
20:13:04 <wendy> unclear in UAAG how that should be handled; is not well handled in current
20:13:04 <wendy> UA
20:13:05 <wendy> * Discussion/questions on list about reasons this is important for different
20:13:07 <wendy> people, but some feeling that it is in spite of feeling that it "shouldn't
20:13:09 <wendy> be"
20:13:11 <wendy> * Questions about how links used, e.g., for navigation, and whether we
20:13:13 <wendy> should accommodate that
20:13:15 <wendy> ack john
20:13:36 <wendy> js not only for people who are blind, also for low vision and people with cog. disabilties
20:13:53 <wendy> .. don't need to address link text but make the destination available
20:14:12 <GVAN> Q+
20:14:24 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "make destination available sounds like you have to have a href for a link"
20:14:28 <wendy> .. at level 1, "available to asst. techs" could use 'title' to get info and not effect default presentation
20:14:36 <wendy> .. at level 2, make default presentation clearer
20:15:00 <wendy> .. if don't use phrase, "link text" in guidelines, then finesse the issue of addressing what link text is.
20:15:02 <wendy> ack jason
20:15:29 <wendy> jw agree w/john that if we say anything about link destinations, then we need to say that they are avail. to asst. tech. concern about testability.
20:15:35 <wendy> .. "clear" is as testable as "simple"
20:16:27 <wendy> .. how to clarify what needs to be done to make it testable?
20:16:56 <wendy> .. at level 3, certainly require something that is visible. at level 1 could make it more explicit about avail. to asst. tech.
20:17:07 <wendy> ack gv
20:17:16 <wendy> gv how big is the problem?
20:17:53 <wendy> .. links presumably make more sense when read in context
20:18:01 <Yvette_Hoitink> q-
20:18:15 <wendy> .. destination is usually available, but is it clearer if you take the link off of the page
20:18:55 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "idea for UAAG: use <title> of destination for link list"
20:19:13 <wendy> ack john
20:19:31 <wendy> js not just about people using links lists.
20:20:18 <Yvette_Hoitink> q-
20:20:22 <wendy> .. challenge to look at page through a straw. may see the link, but may not see the context.
20:22:00 <wendy> ack sailesh
20:22:15 <GVAN> q+
20:22:23 <wendy> sp there are links that are very long (dozen words)
20:23:06 <wendy> ack gv
20:24:19 <wendy> js go to a page that lists technical reports and lists 3 versions of each one. figure out which one you want.
20:24:37 <wendy> ack loretta
20:24:47 <wendy> LGR conflict between complete and terse
20:25:14 <wendy> .. can we optimize simultaneously
20:25:16 <wendy> ack john
20:25:19 <wendy> ack jason
20:25:32 <wendy> jw have not seen a proposal that addresses testability issues.
20:25:39 <wendy> .. perhaps level 2 or 3 issues, but not level 1
20:26:58 <wendy> gv e.g. - have a list of reports, each has a link for each format (5 formats)
20:27:04 <wendy> how mark it up/
20:27:06 <wendy> ?
20:27:19 <wendy> put the title document in the title attribute in each of the links
20:27:45 <wendy> title="PDF version of [title of document]"
20:28:20 <wendy> have to configure jaws as to which to display
20:28:51 <wendy> sp read both if different
20:29:00 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ 
20:29:24 <wendy> gv what about browsers that do link lists?
20:34:18 <Yvette_Hoitink> ack Yvette
20:34:21 <Yvette_Hoitink> ack Jason
20:34:23 <wendy> actually - opera seems to only list links that go to the same place only once.
20:34:38 <wendy> i.e., several links to news archive, although diff places on that page, only appear once.
20:34:49 <wendy> link to a pdf document has an icon
20:34:54 <wendy> image links, alt-text is shown
20:37:05 <wendy> title is shown if available i.e., <a href="" title="Alphabetical Site Index">site index</a>
20:37:34 <wendy> what about multiple destinations in an xLink?
20:39:04 <wendy> "the destination is identified in link text or ...
20:39:10 <wendy> current level 3: The target of each link is clearly identified
20:39:11 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "The destination is identified in the link text or through markup"
20:39:11 <cookiecrook> q+
20:39:18 <wendy> remove "clearly" to make tstable
20:39:35 <wendy> need to say "in words" or something, otherwise, get content of href?
20:39:51 <wendy> ack yvette
20:39:51 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "The destination is identified in the link text or through markup"
20:40:12 <wendy> s/markup/whatever our phrase is for markup like stuff
20:40:14 <wendy> ack cookie
20:40:29 <wendy> re: xlink - that should be defined for each attribute
20:40:37 <wendy> attribute for each resource
20:41:02 <wendy> zakim, cookiecrook is James_Craig
20:41:02 <Zakim> sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'cookiecrook'
20:41:16 <wendy> zakim, associate cookiecrook with James_Craig
20:41:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'associate cookiecrook with James_Craig', wendy
20:41:17 <cookiecrook> q+
20:43:08 <wendy> in text that is programatically associated with the link
20:43:23 <wendy> "destination is id in the link text or can be derived programmatically"
20:43:34 <wendy> using href, it can be derived programmatically
20:43:46 <wendy> i.e., by fetching the other page
20:44:25 <bengt> no you have get the header only !
20:44:32 <cookiecrook> agreed
20:46:08 <wendy> "destination is id in the link text or can be derived programmatically without fetching the target"
20:46:19 <wendy> ack cookiecrack
20:46:24 <wendy> ack cookie
20:46:38 <wendy> what about "action verb" recommendation? i.e., avoid call to actions in the link text?
20:47:05 <wendy> ack john
20:47:53 <wendy> s/fetching/retrieving
20:48:01 <wendy> ack john
20:48:18 <wendy> js against: saying "can be derived programmatically.." does not solve the href problem.
20:48:41 <wendy> .. that is the destination
20:50:10 <wendy> action: js reword "destination is id in the link text or can be derived programmatically without fetching the target"
20:50:45 <wendy> yh should be level 1
20:50:50 <wendy> gv not serious enough to be level 1
20:51:13 <wendy> wac could be level 1 if can satisfy by using title on a (e.g.)
20:51:25 <wendy> yh it fits our criteria for level 1.
20:52:29 <wendy> gv no it doesn't
20:53:49 <wendy> jw happy for level 3, ok with level 2, don't think for leve 1
20:53:55 <wendy> asw unless consensus to move, keep at level 3
20:54:01 <wendy> yh think level 1, could live with 2 or 3
20:54:09 <wendy> js happy with level 2, prefer level 1, level 3 no
20:54:24 <wendy> jc happy with 2 or 3
20:54:31 <wendy> anyone against level 2?
20:54:50 <wendy> jaws tries expressing opinion...
20:54:52 <wendy> :)
20:55:08 <wendy> john will work on wording and then we'll discuss level 2 or level 3
20:55:30 <wendy> sp criticality is part of defn of level 1,2, 3?
20:55:48 <wendy> Level 1 success criteria: 
20:55:48 <wendy> Achieve a minimum level of accessibility through markup, scripting, or other technologies that interact with user agents, including assistive technologies
20:55:48 <wendy> Could be reasonably be applied to all Web resources
20:55:56 <wendy> Level 2 success criteria: 
20:55:56 <wendy> Increase accessibility through either or both of the following:
20:55:56 <wendy> additional facilitation of user agent based accessibility
20:55:56 <wendy> content and/or presentation that provides direct accessibility without requiring the user or their user agent to do anything different from users without disabilities
20:55:56 <wendy> Could be reasonably be applied to all Web resources.
20:56:00 <wendy> Level 3 success criteria: 
20:56:00 <wendy> Go beyond Level 1 and 2 to increase direct and user agent enhanced accessibility 
20:56:05 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/#conformance
20:56:38 <wendy> sp whether an issue is critical for accessibility or not is not defined by a technique making it more or less accessible?
20:57:06 <wendy> gv what goes in level 1, 2 or 3, not so mcuh defined by the defns but what we decide as a committee.
20:58:55 <wendy> i.e., gv's interpretation is not the final word, but merely his interpretation of where he thinks we are.
20:59:22 <wendy> sp does the interpretation of level 1 keep changing?
20:59:34 <wendy> gv it is subject to change because we as a group can change it.
21:01:05 <wendy> ack john
21:01:35 <wendy> s/located/derived
21:01:40 <wendy> john reads proposal (also sent to list)
21:02:10 <wendy> located - locate a defn but can't determine which one it is
21:02:17 <wendy> determine - know exactly which one you are refering to
21:02:38 <wendy> "the dest of each link is identified in words or prhases that occur in the default presentation or can be determined programmatically"
21:02:50 <wendy> using title, is "determined programmatically"
21:02:57 <wendy> s/prhases/phrases
21:03:03 <wendy> concern with "default presentation"
21:03:42 <wendy> so, just delete and say
21:03:55 <wendy> "the dest of each link is identified in words and phrases in the link or can be programmatically determined"
21:04:25 <wendy> the words and phrases that id the dest, either occur in the link or can be determined prog. 
21:05:37 <wendy> the dest of each link is id through words or phrase that occur in the link or can be determined programmatically"
21:06:06 <wendy> the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that occur in the link or can be determined programmatically"
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21:06:24 <wendy> the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that occur in the link or they can be determined programmatically"
21:06:41 <wendy> the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be determined programmatically"
21:07:09 <wendy> the destination of each link is identified through words or phrases that either occur in the link or can be programmatically determined
21:07:28 <wendy> drop action 1
21:07:34 <wendy> RRSAgent, drop action 1
21:07:54 <wendy> consensus on this text.
21:08:15 <wendy> action: ben publish to list w/nomination that it be considered for level 2
21:08:48 <wendy> Topic: [#827] Success criterion for separate content from presentation
21:08:58 <wendy> Introduction by: Michael Cooper
21:08:58 <wendy> <http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0721.html>
21:08:58 <wendy> * Guideline 1.3 speaks to separation of content from presentation, but no
21:08:58 <wendy> success criterion address that specifically. TTF would like to create
21:08:58 <wendy> techniques but needs a SC.
21:09:00 <wendy> * Concern that this would have effect of banning technologies that don't
21:09:01 <wendy> provide mechanisms to do this
21:09:55 <wendy> propose adding a success criterion "Presentation is implemented
21:09:55 <wendy> separately from semantic structure." I suspect this should be a level 2 SC
21:09:55 <wendy> but
21:09:55 <wendy> possibly it should be level 1.
21:10:13 <wendy> if that was a success criterion, then things w/outstyle sheets would fail.
21:10:19 <wendy> ack jason
21:10:36 <wendy> jw pdf satisfies this
21:11:07 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "Wherever a choice between input device event handlers is available and supported"
21:11:34 <wendy> q+ to say, "restyling - primarily contrast and magnification.  primarily related to extracting text for restyling. doesn't make sense for gif but does for SVG, MathML, voicexml.  should probably apply to InkML but not clear that it does now."
21:11:59 <wendy> jw anything that meets 1.3 should meet this unless there is something in addition that needs to be spelled out.
21:12:41 <wendy> jw if can retrieve the structure, then it can be separated from presentation.
21:13:29 <wendy> jw layout is seprate from the semantics and the references to the content
21:13:51 <wendy> ack yvette
21:13:51 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Wherever a choice between input device event handlers is available and supported"
21:14:14 <wendy> ack loretta
21:14:17 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+
21:14:32 <wendy> lgr separating the two doesn't mean that you can change tteh presentation
21:14:49 <wendy> lgr we have separate semantics from presentation, but that doesnt' mean you can change the presentation ala css
21:15:01 <wendy> jw unless extract text from tags and run own software to create a presentation
21:15:52 <wendy> ack yvette
21:16:14 <wendy> yh could be aproblem b/c technologies that don't allow separation won't meet.
21:16:31 <wendy> yh wherever t is possible to separate struct from presentation, do so
21:16:32 <wendy> ack wendy
21:16:32 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say, "restyling - primarily contrast and magnification.  primarily related to extracting text for restyling. doesn't make sense for gif but does for SVG,
21:16:35 <Zakim> ... MathML, voicexml.  should probably apply to InkML but not clear that it does now."
21:18:30 <wendy> gv even if it did limit technolgoies, can always have something at level 3, "only use really accessible"
21:18:53 <wendy> gv the same techs that can't support this, can they meet the other things that we do have?
21:19:10 <wendy> current criteria:
21:19:19 <wendy> level 1, #1 of 1.3: Structures and relationships within the content can be derived programmatically.
21:19:47 <wendy> jw map presentation back to structure
21:20:37 <wendy> gv can dervie programmaticaly, new one says "implement in certain way"
21:20:46 <wendy> gv not what achieve, but how you can achieve
21:21:23 <wendy> gv text and restyling. in 1.3, we're saying "you can get that content out" so the AT can represent it.
21:21:41 <wendy> gv this is a tougher test b/c it is asking that you be able to attach to this that you can change it.
21:22:12 <wendy> gv presentation is implemented in a fashion that it can be changed
21:22:22 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "whether presentation can be changed is UA issue"
21:22:33 <wendy> gv make sure we stick w/text so that we don't get mixed up with graphic representation
21:22:38 <DoyleB> in wai glossary text is also defined as a representation of text (graphical) which probably cannot be changed.  Just what Gregg said.
21:23:13 <wendy> q+ to say, "if text, should be level 1"
21:23:16 <wendy> ack yvette
21:23:16 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "whether presentation can be changed is UA issue"
21:24:14 <wendy> ack jason
21:24:40 <DoyleB> hand up
21:25:17 <wendy> jw reformatting accordingly
21:25:31 <wendy> jw if that is the case, then wouldn't at level 1, start ruling out technologies
21:25:45 <wendy> jw doesn't give you much diff from reformatting of structure via semantics
21:25:54 <wendy> jw allows you to keep some attributes w/out losing
21:26:45 <wendy> gv if we don't have closure, recommend that we send it back to TTF (not sure what asking, not sure that 1.3 doesn't already cover)
21:28:06 <wendy> ack wendy
21:28:06 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say, "if text, should be level 1"
21:28:08 <wendy> ack doyle
21:28:40 <wendy> action: wendy and michael rework the proposal for new success criterion related to separating style from content (restyling, text). inc today's discussion.
21:28:57 <wendy> jw at level 3 could say "don't use raster based images..."
21:29:30 <wendy> Topic: [#828] definition of foreground and background thread begins
21:30:01 <wendy> gv only interested in text? if not, includes pictures, images over images.
21:30:35 <wendy> today's proposal from andi: 
21:30:54 <wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JulSep/0011.html
21:31:00 <wendy> Background:  Anything that appears behind foreground content.  This
21:31:00 <wendy>    could be a contrasting color, decorative material or meaningful content.
21:31:23 <wendy> restrict this guideline to text?
21:31:35 <wendy> yh any examples of issues w/contrast other than with text?
21:31:46 <wendy> q+ to say 
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21:32:04 <wendy> q+ to say, "Cynthia Brewer's work on contrast in maps"
21:32:24 <DoyleB> hand up
21:32:55 <wendy> Color Use Guidelines for Data Representation - http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/c/a/cab38/ColorSch/ASApaper.html
21:33:26 <bcaldwell> q+
21:33:28 <wendy> ack jason
21:33:43 <wendy> jw if have vector-based format, would that allow people to solve this problem wrt images?
21:34:33 <wendy> jw are sounds excluded?
21:35:44 <wendy> js could make the defns appropriate
21:36:03 <wendy> ack wendy
21:36:03 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say  and to say, "Cynthia Brewer's work on contrast in maps"
21:36:18 <GVAN> q+
21:40:47 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
21:40:57 <wendy> ack doyle
21:41:26 <MattSEA> MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
21:41:42 <wendy> db concerned about contrast and color issues related to information derived from graphical text
21:42:30 <wendy> wac: "accessible images" flag from John Gardner's group
21:42:39 <wendy> db whether text as text or text in image, needs to make accessible
21:42:46 <bcaldwell> q-
21:43:37 <wendy> db contrast via computer monitor, the color defns on a screen change w/in a word 
21:43:44 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "text in WAI gloss is seq of chars"
21:43:55 <wendy> db if the text is large, ok. the smaller the pixels are, the harder to determine color defn.
21:44:05 <wendy> db the ability to see what is portrayed on given background
21:44:09 <wendy> ack john
21:44:30 <wendy> gv not only text, also with charts, lines, etc. not an image but data.
21:45:03 <wendy> gv if you have a chart w/a picture in the background, can see from far away but not if up close.
21:45:15 <wendy> gv perhaps image for level 3, but perhaps charts or data for level 2
21:45:15 <cookiecrook> clarification: i think the meaning was perception of color contrast based on sized rather than actual color of text. this is seperate from anti-aliasing
21:45:34 <wendy> ack gvan
21:45:42 <wendy> zakim, queue is closed
21:45:42 <Zakim> sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'queue'
21:45:48 <wendy> zakim, close q
21:45:48 <Zakim> I don't understand 'close q', wendy
21:45:52 <wendy> ack yvette
21:45:52 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "text in WAI gloss is seq of chars"
21:46:30 <wendy> zakim, close the queue
21:46:30 <Zakim> ok, wendy, the speaker queue is closed
21:47:06 <wendy> gv want to cover that issue, our defn excludes
21:47:33 <wendy> yh dublin core defn and normative defns.
21:47:46 <Yvette_Hoitink> Link to WAI glossary: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/Glossary/printable.html#T
21:47:51 <wendy> gv our defn clarifies text equivalent
21:47:59 <wendy> gv we have to define characters
21:49:05 <wendy> wac this is related to my action item from discussion with I18N
21:49:07 <wendy> ack mike
21:49:22 <wendy> mb are we considering aliased characters to be covered?
21:49:56 <cookiecrook> q+
21:50:01 <wendy> gv if have letters made of pixels, they look jagged but if some pixels are grey instead of black, it will appear smoother.
21:50:32 <wendy> gv problem is that if you took a contrast measure of the aliased pixel againts the background, there wn't be much contrast, although the character itself has good contrast.
21:50:51 <wendy> mb character-smoothing won't effect text rendered by IE
21:51:26 <wendy> mb do we consider the ant-alias pixel to be background? if so, does this guideline outlaw this?
21:51:37 <wendy> gv will have to be clear about anti-alias pixels
21:51:55 <wendy> mb concern is that anti-alias text is difficult to read...
21:52:00 <wendy> gv ... when it is blown up
21:52:08 <wendy> s/blown up/magnified
21:52:56 <Andi> q+
21:54:26 <DoyleB> I love it too, Wendy :)
21:54:34 <wendy> mb is anti-aliasing covered by UAAG?
21:54:59 <wendy> gv if in a gif, also have alt-text
21:55:11 <wendy> gv we're talking about a level 2
21:55:45 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
21:55:56 <wendy> gv level could be edge pixels
21:56:39 <wendy> q?
21:56:48 <wendy> ack jason
21:57:27 <wendy> jw why not move forward with defn of contrast and put excemptions in the criteria.
21:57:30 <wendy> ?
21:58:18 <wendy> gv if have something in front of something, aliasing falls in-between. things are not usually just in 2 layers.
21:58:35 <wendy> jw background if nothing else behind it. foreground if nothing else in front of.
21:58:58 <Zakim> -Matt
21:59:24 <wendy> asw smooths the edges
21:59:34 <wendy> s/asw smooths/zoomtext
22:01:35 <wendy> gv "when text is in the foreground..." or "when a graphic is in the foreground..." rather than making them really general.
22:02:18 <wendy> action: gv attempt to repropose text related to foreground/background
22:02:41 <wendy> Topic: Reading order
22:02:49 <wendy> gv please think about and respond on the list.
22:03:18 <wendy> "functional reading order" somehwat better than "logical reading order" but still difficult to test.
22:04:16 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow-Weaver
22:04:18 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:04:19 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
22:04:20 <Zakim> -JasonWhite
22:04:21 <Zakim> -Mike_Barta
22:04:22 <Zakim> -Ben-and-Gregg
22:04:23 <Zakim> -Wendy
22:04:24 <Zakim> -James_Craig
22:04:25 <Zakim> -Doyle_Burnett
22:04:30 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farre
22:04:31 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:04:32 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, Wendy, James_Craig, Ben-and-Gregg, Mike_Barta, Andi_Snow-Weaver, JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Doyle_Burnett,
22:04:34 <Zakim> ... Yvette_Hoitink
22:04:42 <wendy> zakim, bye
22:04:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:04:46 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
22:04:46 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
22:04:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben publish to list w/nomination that it be considered for level 2 [2]
22:04:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/01-wai-wcag-irc#T21-08-15
22:04:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy and michael rework the proposal for new success criterion related to separating style from content (restyling, text). inc today's discussion. [3]
22:04:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/01-wai-wcag-irc#T21-28-40
22:04:46 <RRSAgent> ACTION: gv attempt to repropose text related to foreground/background [4]
22:04:46 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/07/01-wai-wcag-irc#T22-02-18