IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-06-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:04:58 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:05:12 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:05:18 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make logs world
14:05:20 [Zakim]
14:05:22 [Zakim]
ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben
14:06:20 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tom, Becky_Gibson, Jim_Thatcher, Don_Evans, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Sailesh_Panchang, Ben, ??P21, Wendy
14:06:31 [wendy]
zakim, ??P21 is Lisa_Seeman
14:07:12 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:07:15 [wendy]
agenda+ bugzilla issues
14:07:24 [wendy]
Chair: Michael Cooper
14:07:28 [wendy]
Scribe: Wendy Chisholm
14:07:40 [wendy]
Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force
14:08:11 [wendy]
jim, becky, tom - others took action items a couple of weeks ago
14:08:37 [wendy]
action items:
14:08:45 [wendy]
drop action 1
14:08:48 [wendy]
RRSAgent, drop action 1
14:10:52 [wendy]
use of title - it can be used to give supplementary info about links. there are some user agent issues (primarily screen reader)
14:12:29 [wendy]
365 not controversial
14:12:45 [wendy]
14:12:53 [wendy]
265 also not controversial
14:13:33 [wendy]
table summaries: sailesh sent a write-up
14:13:42 [wendy]
wasn't a bug, just an action item
14:13:45 [wendy]
jim also looked at
14:14:05 [wendy]
Topic: action item review
14:14:22 [wendy]
action: michael copy table summary info into source, discuss as part of next draft
14:14:38 [wendy]
241 had a lot of discussion
14:15:31 [Zakim]
14:15:53 [sh1m]
Becky... aved by the bell :P
14:16:18 [wendy]
jim tried to integrate the suggestions into the document that he sent
14:18:02 [wendy]
we have some "until user agents" issues, but in techniques provide specific user agent support information
14:18:18 [wendy]
split jim's suggestions into multiple techniques?
14:18:46 [wendy]
14:23:36 [Zakim]
14:23:46 [wendy]
Topic: layout tables
14:26:06 [bcaldwell]
14:26:19 [wendy]
michael summarizes discussion to date
14:26:28 [wendy]
only th in data tables?
14:26:39 [wendy]
any css issues related to table layout?
14:30:48 [wendy]
wac attended part of diwg f2f meeting and brought up issue of data/layout tables.
14:31:07 [wendy]
their approach is to say, "tables are for data. if you use a table for layout, we will process as if it is data table"
14:31:39 [wendy]
the processing is related to how they slide/dice large bits of content to appear on a small screen (for example).
14:31:54 [wendy]
but, we need to say something abut layout to minimize damage
14:32:13 [wendy]
however, layout table techniques seem to be deprecated
14:35:33 [wendy]
instead of marking as deprecated, say, "avoid layout tables"
14:36:04 [wendy]
action: michael clean up layout table section of html techniques
14:36:29 [wendy]
avoided discussion of summary for layout table while discussed summary for data table
14:36:35 [wendy]
Topic: summary for layout tables
14:36:56 [wendy]
options: should not be used at all or if used, must have null value or always used, with null value
14:37:36 [wendy]
what about navigation bar?
14:39:45 [wendy]
it is helpful, when reach a layout table and it says "layout table" then user can know how to navigate it.
14:40:43 [wendy]
is it a technique to use the summary for other things - to write a summary.
14:40:53 [wendy]
xhtml2 will have more info about role
14:40:56 [wendy]
content types
14:41:10 [wendy]
previous discussion about class
14:41:17 [wendy]
title instead of summary
14:41:18 [wendy]
14:42:18 [wendy]
will authors mark every table?
14:42:25 [wendy]
instead, leave the flag off and assume layout
14:43:10 [wendy]
most normal users will not know what "layout" and "data" tables are.
14:43:17 [wendy]
unless you are aware of web accessibility
14:44:03 [wendy]
don't want to say, "can't use summary" because could be step back for some users
14:46:46 [wendy]
summary is specifically defined for non-visual access in the spec. if you want to provide another function, title works.
14:48:59 [sh1m]
14:49:35 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
14:49:45 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (15%), Michael_Cooper (59%)
14:51:39 [wendy]
move forward? get more feedback from users first? get feedback from PFWG first?
14:51:55 [wendy]
move forward - incorporate into draft - and request feedback from users and PFWG on the public draft.
14:52:42 [wendy]
move forward with: summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null
14:53:23 [wendy]
want to say, "null summary similar to using null alt-text?"
14:54:28 [wendy]
instead, "summary normally interference when layout table, meant to describe layout of data table, providing any value is problematic. if use, must be null."
14:55:00 [wendy]
agreed: don't treat it like null alt-text
14:55:39 [wendy]
action: michael update html techs with layout table/summary summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null
14:57:08 [wendy]
Topic: linear reading order of tables
14:57:13 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
14:57:23 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (13%), Michael_Cooper (37%), Lisa_Seeman (4%)
14:59:25 [wendy]
add example: layout table for form where label in separate cell from form control (what about labelfor?)
15:00:07 [Zakim]
15:00:09 [wendy]
add example: nested layout tables, cell-collapsing, linearization is nightmare
15:00:33 [wendy]
css more likely to have reading issue than nested tables?
15:01:01 [wendy]
are there any older screen readers still in use that are reading the screen? remove that editorial note.
15:01:17 [wendy]
check for international tools.
15:01:40 [wendy]
what about read-out-loud tools? some of the free readers read screen?
15:01:57 [wendy]
some of those tools do "copy and paste" of screen and read that
15:03:35 [wendy]
action: nobody find out about screen readers around the world
15:05:27 [wendy]
clean up existing editorial note - need to better understand international screen readers (and other assistive technology)
15:08:45 [wendy]
level 1, "unless specific reason for backwards-compatibility". layout tables are backwards-compatibility issue (partly due to lack of support in authoring tool).
15:09:01 [wendy]
is it likely that people will document that use of layout tables is for backwards-compat?
15:09:07 [wendy]
we agreed to avoid teh word avoid.
15:09:18 [wendy]
15:09:41 [wendy]
action: michael map to level 3 criterion, avoid the word avoid
15:09:59 [wendy]
interpretations of avoid: do not use or try not to use
15:10:12 [wendy]
if map to level 3, say "do not use layout tables"
15:11:36 [wendy]
really level 3?
15:11:54 [wendy]
preference by some for level 2, but no success criterion to map it to
15:12:47 [wendy]
if xhtml2 includes a role so that can be clearly marked, this will be level 3 and not encouraged
15:14:37 [wendy]
5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2]
15:14:41 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0
15:16:36 [wendy]
thus, move to level 2 for consistency with WCAG 1.0
15:17:37 [wendy]
currently, "Technologies are used according to specification without exception. " is a level 3
15:19:28 [wendy]
note about 640 x 840 - need to specify?
15:21:29 [wendy]
Topic: review of new internal draft of HTML Techs
15:21:42 [wendy]
15:24:26 [wendy]
chris submitted several techniques via the techniques form.
15:24:52 [wendy]
many of them include test files. michael would like to discuss level of detail and test files.
15:25:11 [sh1m]
What days at the f2f with techs be discussed?
15:25:22 [sh1m]
Wednesday and YThursday 14-15 July
15:26:01 [Zakim]
15:26:06 [wendy]
a change log will be published
15:26:23 [wendy]
Topic: design, linking between documents
15:26:28 [sh1m]
If people take time to look at the techniques, then the catagories of new techniques were put where they seemed to fit but suggestions are welcome
15:26:43 [wendy]
15:28:09 [shawn]
slh: important to determine if need to read general tech before or with specific techs
15:29:31 [sh1m]
How should the general technques change within the new structure of the document collection?
15:29:50 [shawn]
people look at general as default
15:30:03 [ChrisR]
See you next week. Must run.
15:30:06 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
15:30:15 [Zakim]
15:30:27 [sh1m]
People new to accessibility need general techs people who know prefer reference without
15:33:39 [sh1m]
How does this relate to the traffic cop?
15:33:59 [sh1m]
If you are already familair traffic cop is good for quick reference and navigation
15:34:55 [sh1m]
General is a good reference for people beginning an encyclopedia for techniques.
15:35:23 [sh1m]
Part of the reason for traffic cop was link management
15:37:03 [wendy]
one primary reason for general is to capture the redundant text
15:37:17 [wendy]
if people go right to the tech-specific, they will miss some of the information
15:37:28 [wendy]
perhaps send them to the general, but make it easy to skip that if they have already read that
15:38:23 [wendy]
if someone comes w/the question, "how do i make a form accessible" that is not provided in our organization
15:38:39 [wendy]
except that techniques are organized by element (rather than SC)
15:38:57 [wendy]
worry that people will go to traffic cop and jump over the general stuff
15:39:02 [wendy]
and they'll miss ethos
15:39:14 [wendy]
link from html to general?
15:39:17 [wendy]
have not designed yet
15:39:44 [wendy]
that link could address the concern about missing general info
15:40:01 [wendy]
we map some html techniques to more than one SC
15:40:07 [wendy]
do general map to more than one criterion?
15:40:13 [wendy]
breaks the design?
15:40:23 [wendy]
tom trying to make as atomic as possible, but it is an issue
15:40:33 [wendy]
perhaps have a primary and secondary relationships to SC?
15:42:55 [wendy]
two parameters for design: if come from guidelines, want to first see the general info but want it to be easy to skip that and go right to technology-specific techniques.
15:43:16 [wendy]
at the same time, if end up in a tech-specific, want to clearly link to general information related to the current technique
15:43:47 [wendy]
help at guidelines level to minimize the number of links out
15:43:50 [wendy]
(only link to general)
15:43:59 [wendy]
perhaps general is slices, each guideline has a page of its own
15:44:08 [wendy]
is traffic cop an expert tool?
15:44:25 [wendy]
giving people a tool to help them jump to specific things
15:44:51 [wendy]
if a "power tool" link to from the top of documents
15:44:58 [wendy]
instead of a link all over the place
15:45:22 [wendy]
primary path vs shortcut for experts
15:45:49 [wendy]
take a specific technique and following through to see if works or not
15:46:14 [wendy]
a one page doc - a table of contents - use that to go wherever you need to go
15:46:50 [wendy]
important to have the document that says, "here are all of the pieces and here's how they relate"
15:47:21 [wendy]
the site redesign task force are writing intro pages for various WAI items, especially WCAG
15:47:27 [wendy]
part of intro in gateway?
15:47:39 [wendy]
perhaps EO should start on that?
15:50:52 [wendy]
action: sailesh, john, tom, and shawn talk about high-level view of document
15:56:33 [Zakim]
15:57:01 [wendy]
reactions to shawn's scenarios?
15:57:19 [wendy]
appreciate how often mention printing materials
15:57:43 [wendy]
becky's scenarios attempted to sketch ideal paths that people might want to take.
15:58:00 [wendy]
shawn: some of the scnarios are based on people i know
15:58:11 [wendy]
one that people don't seem to know well is the policy scenario/persona
15:59:34 [wendy]
what to do with scenarios?
16:01:59 [wendy]
becky can develop more scenarios and look at how those might be different from existing.
16:02:19 [Zakim]
16:02:25 [wendy]
field study: watch someone in their environment to see how they attempt to complete a task
16:02:35 [wendy]
tom willing to talk with people at meeting next week
16:02:39 [wendy]
Topic: upcoming
16:02:45 [wendy]
next week: checklist prototype from ben
16:02:49 [wendy]
following week: f2f
16:03:00 [Zakim]
16:03:01 [Zakim]
16:03:02 [Zakim]
16:03:03 [Zakim]
16:03:04 [Zakim]
16:03:04 [Zakim]
16:03:05 [Zakim]
16:03:05 [donaldfevans]
donaldfevans has left #wai-wcag
16:03:08 [Zakim]
16:03:09 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:03:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Jim_Thatcher, Don_Evans, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Sailesh_Panchang, Tom, Ben, Wendy, Lisa_Seeman, Shawn
16:09:42 [wendy]
zakim, list conferences
16:09:42 [Zakim]
I see WAI_PF()12:00PM, WS_XMLP()11:30AM active
16:09:43 [Zakim]
also scheduled at this time is XML_QueryWG()12:00PM
16:12:04 [wendy]
zakim, bye
16:12:04 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:12:09 [wendy]
RRSagent, make log world
16:12:13 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
I see 6 open action items:
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael copy table summary info into source, discuss as part of next draft [2]
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael clean up layout table section of html techniques [3]
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael update html techs with layout table/summary summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null [4]
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: nobody find out about screen readers around the world [5]
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael map to level 3 criterion, avoid the word avoid [6]
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: sailesh, john, tom, and shawn talk about high-level view of document [7]
16:12:13 [RRSAgent]
recorded in