14:04:58 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:05:12 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:05:18 rrsagent, make logs world 14:05:20 +Wendy 14:05:22 ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben 14:06:20 On the phone I see Tom, Becky_Gibson, Jim_Thatcher, Don_Evans, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Sailesh_Panchang, Ben, ??P21, Wendy 14:06:31 zakim, ??P21 is Lisa_Seeman 14:07:12 +Lisa_Seeman; got it 14:07:15 agenda+ bugzilla issues 14:07:24 Chair: Michael Cooper 14:07:28 Scribe: Wendy Chisholm 14:07:40 Meeting: WCAG WG Techniques Task Force 14:08:11 jim, becky, tom - others took action items a couple of weeks ago 14:08:37 action items: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/condensedreports/actionitems.php 14:08:45 drop action 1 14:08:48 RRSAgent, drop action 1 14:10:52 use of title - it can be used to give supplementary info about links. there are some user agent issues (primarily screen reader) 14:12:29 365 not controversial 14:12:45 s/365/300 14:12:53 265 also not controversial 14:13:33 table summaries: sailesh sent a write-up 14:13:42 wasn't a bug, just an action item 14:13:45 jim also looked at 14:14:05 Topic: action item review 14:14:22 action: michael copy table summary info into source, discuss as part of next draft 14:14:38 241 had a lot of discussion 14:15:31 -Becky_Gibson 14:15:53 Becky... aved by the bell :P 14:16:18 jim tried to integrate the suggestions into the document that he sent 14:18:02 we have some "until user agents" issues, but in techniques provide specific user agent support information 14:18:18 split jim's suggestions into multiple techniques? 14:18:46 revised: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0769.html 14:23:36 +Becky_Gibson 14:23:46 Topic: layout tables 14:26:06 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS/#layouttables 14:26:19 michael summarizes discussion to date 14:26:28 only th in data tables? 14:26:39 any css issues related to table layout? 14:30:48 wac attended part of diwg f2f meeting and brought up issue of data/layout tables. 14:31:07 their approach is to say, "tables are for data. if you use a table for layout, we will process as if it is data table" 14:31:39 the processing is related to how they slide/dice large bits of content to appear on a small screen (for example). 14:31:54 but, we need to say something abut layout to minimize damage 14:32:13 however, layout table techniques seem to be deprecated 14:35:33 instead of marking as deprecated, say, "avoid layout tables" 14:36:04 action: michael clean up layout table section of html techniques 14:36:29 avoided discussion of summary for layout table while discussed summary for data table 14:36:35 Topic: summary for layout tables 14:36:56 options: should not be used at all or if used, must have null value or always used, with null value 14:37:36 what about navigation bar? 14:39:45 it is helpful, when reach a layout table and it says "layout table" then user can know how to navigate it. 14:40:43 is it a technique to use the summary for other things - to write a summary. 14:40:53 xhtml2 will have more info about role 14:40:56 content types 14:41:10 previous discussion about class 14:41:17 title instead of summary 14:41:18 ? 14:42:18 will authors mark every table? 14:42:25 instead, leave the flag off and assume layout 14:43:10 most normal users will not know what "layout" and "data" tables are. 14:43:17 unless you are aware of web accessibility 14:44:03 don't want to say, "can't use summary" because could be step back for some users 14:46:46 summary is specifically defined for non-visual access in the spec. if you want to provide another function, title works. 14:48:59 :) 14:49:35 zakim, who's making noise? 14:49:45 wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (15%), Michael_Cooper (59%) 14:51:39 move forward? get more feedback from users first? get feedback from PFWG first? 14:51:55 move forward - incorporate into draft - and request feedback from users and PFWG on the public draft. 14:52:42 move forward with: summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null 14:53:23 want to say, "null summary similar to using null alt-text?" 14:54:28 instead, "summary normally interference when layout table, meant to describe layout of data table, providing any value is problematic. if use, must be null." 14:55:00 agreed: don't treat it like null alt-text 14:55:39 action: michael update html techs with layout table/summary summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null 14:57:08 Topic: linear reading order of tables 14:57:13 zakim, who's making noise? 14:57:23 wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Becky_Gibson (13%), Michael_Cooper (37%), Lisa_Seeman (4%) 14:59:25 add example: layout table for form where label in separate cell from form control (what about labelfor?) 15:00:07 -Ben 15:00:09 add example: nested layout tables, cell-collapsing, linearization is nightmare 15:00:33 css more likely to have reading issue than nested tables? 15:01:01 are there any older screen readers still in use that are reading the screen? remove that editorial note. 15:01:17 check for international tools. 15:01:40 what about read-out-loud tools? some of the free readers read screen? 15:01:57 some of those tools do "copy and paste" of screen and read that 15:03:35 action: nobody find out about screen readers around the world 15:05:27 clean up existing editorial note - need to better understand international screen readers (and other assistive technology) 15:08:45 level 1, "unless specific reason for backwards-compatibility". layout tables are backwards-compatibility issue (partly due to lack of support in authoring tool). 15:09:01 is it likely that people will document that use of layout tables is for backwards-compat? 15:09:07 we agreed to avoid teh word avoid. 15:09:18 s/teh/the 15:09:41 action: michael map to level 3 criterion, avoid the word avoid 15:09:59 interpretations of avoid: do not use or try not to use 15:10:12 if map to level 3, say "do not use layout tables" 15:11:36 really level 3? 15:11:54 preference by some for level 2, but no success criterion to map it to 15:12:47 if xhtml2 includes a role so that can be clearly marked, this will be level 3 and not encouraged 15:14:37 5.3 Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2] 15:14:41 WCAG 1.0 15:16:36 thus, move to level 2 for consistency with WCAG 1.0 15:17:37 currently, "Technologies are used according to specification without exception. " is a level 3 15:19:28 note about 640 x 840 - need to specify? 15:21:29 Topic: review of new internal draft of HTML Techs 15:21:42 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20040629/ 15:24:26 chris submitted several techniques via the techniques form. 15:24:52 many of them include test files. michael would like to discuss level of detail and test files. 15:25:11 What days at the f2f with techs be discussed? 15:25:22 Wednesday and YThursday 14-15 July 15:26:01 +Shawn 15:26:06 a change log will be published 15:26:23 Topic: design, linking between documents 15:26:28 If people take time to look at the techniques, then the catagories of new techniques were put where they seemed to fit but suggestions are welcome 15:26:43 brb 15:28:09 slh: important to determine if need to read general tech before or with specific techs 15:29:31 How should the general technques change within the new structure of the document collection? 15:29:50 people look at general as default 15:30:03 See you next week. Must run. 15:30:06 ChrisR has left #wai-wcag 15:30:15 -Chris_Ridpath 15:30:27 People new to accessibility need general techs people who know prefer reference without 15:33:39 How does this relate to the traffic cop? 15:33:59 If you are already familair traffic cop is good for quick reference and navigation 15:34:55 General is a good reference for people beginning an encyclopedia for techniques. 15:35:23 Part of the reason for traffic cop was link management 15:37:03 one primary reason for general is to capture the redundant text 15:37:17 if people go right to the tech-specific, they will miss some of the information 15:37:28 perhaps send them to the general, but make it easy to skip that if they have already read that 15:38:23 if someone comes w/the question, "how do i make a form accessible" that is not provided in our organization 15:38:39 except that techniques are organized by element (rather than SC) 15:38:57 worry that people will go to traffic cop and jump over the general stuff 15:39:02 and they'll miss ethos 15:39:14 link from html to general? 15:39:17 have not designed yet 15:39:44 that link could address the concern about missing general info 15:40:01 we map some html techniques to more than one SC 15:40:07 do general map to more than one criterion? 15:40:13 breaks the design? 15:40:23 tom trying to make as atomic as possible, but it is an issue 15:40:33 perhaps have a primary and secondary relationships to SC? 15:42:55 two parameters for design: if come from guidelines, want to first see the general info but want it to be easy to skip that and go right to technology-specific techniques. 15:43:16 at the same time, if end up in a tech-specific, want to clearly link to general information related to the current technique 15:43:47 help at guidelines level to minimize the number of links out 15:43:50 (only link to general) 15:43:59 perhaps general is slices, each guideline has a page of its own 15:44:08 is traffic cop an expert tool? 15:44:25 giving people a tool to help them jump to specific things 15:44:51 if a "power tool" link to from the top of documents 15:44:58 instead of a link all over the place 15:45:22 primary path vs shortcut for experts 15:45:49 take a specific technique and following through to see if works or not 15:46:14 a one page doc - a table of contents - use that to go wherever you need to go 15:46:50 important to have the document that says, "here are all of the pieces and here's how they relate" 15:47:21 the site redesign task force are writing intro pages for various WAI items, especially WCAG 15:47:27 part of intro in gateway? 15:47:39 perhaps EO should start on that? 15:50:52 action: sailesh, john, tom, and shawn talk about high-level view of document 15:56:33 -Tim_Boland 15:57:01 reactions to shawn's scenarios? 15:57:19 appreciate how often mention printing materials 15:57:43 becky's scenarios attempted to sketch ideal paths that people might want to take. 15:58:00 shawn: some of the scnarios are based on people i know 15:58:11 one that people don't seem to know well is the policy scenario/persona 15:59:34 what to do with scenarios? 16:01:59 becky can develop more scenarios and look at how those might be different from existing. 16:02:19 -Jim_Thatcher 16:02:25 field study: watch someone in their environment to see how they attempt to complete a task 16:02:35 tom willing to talk with people at meeting next week 16:02:39 Topic: upcoming 16:02:45 next week: checklist prototype from ben 16:02:49 following week: f2f 16:03:00 -Becky_Gibson 16:03:01 -Don_Evans 16:03:02 -Michael_Cooper 16:03:03 -Tom 16:03:04 -Lisa_Seeman 16:03:04 -Sailesh_Panchang 16:03:05 -Wendy 16:03:05 donaldfevans has left #wai-wcag 16:03:08 -Shawn 16:03:09 WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended 16:03:11 Attendees were Becky_Gibson, Jim_Thatcher, Don_Evans, Chris_Ridpath, Michael_Cooper, Tim_Boland, Sailesh_Panchang, Tom, Ben, Wendy, Lisa_Seeman, Shawn 16:09:42 zakim, list conferences 16:09:42 I see WAI_PF()12:00PM, WS_XMLP()11:30AM active 16:09:43 also scheduled at this time is XML_QueryWG()12:00PM 16:12:04 zakim, bye 16:12:04 Zakim has left #wai-wcag 16:12:09 RRSagent, make log world 16:12:13 RRSAgent, bye 16:12:13 I see 6 open action items: 16:12:13 ACTION: michael copy table summary info into source, discuss as part of next draft [2] 16:12:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-14-22 16:12:13 ACTION: michael clean up layout table section of html techniques [3] 16:12:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-36-04 16:12:13 ACTION: michael update html techs with layout table/summary summary attribute may be present or not, if present must be null [4] 16:12:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T14-55-39 16:12:13 ACTION: nobody find out about screen readers around the world [5] 16:12:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-03-35 16:12:13 ACTION: michael map to level 3 criterion, avoid the word avoid [6] 16:12:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-09-41 16:12:13 ACTION: sailesh, john, tom, and shawn talk about high-level view of document [7] 16:12:13 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/30-wai-wcag-irc#T15-50-52