IRC log of swbp on 2004-06-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:02:33 [RRSAgent]
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14:02:43 [danbri]
aliman, are you going to be IRC only?
14:04:36 [danbri]
zakim, who is on the phone?
14:04:36 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Tbaker, SouthWestEngland
14:04:37 [Zakim]
SouthWestEngland has danbri, libby
14:05:37 [libby]
aliman: idle 00:10:28, signon: Thu Jun 17 14:27:27
14:05:40 [cgi-irc]
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14:05:43 [libby]
guess he is around
14:05:45 [danbri]
revised version:
14:06:36 [therealaliman]
my computer just died
14:06:51 [therealaliman]
hi libby
14:07:50 [danbri]
danbri: not too worried re overlap w/ THES/PORT TF
14:07:58 [Zakim]
14:08:08 [Natasha]
Natasha has joined #swbp
14:08:12 [danbri]
tom: ...expectations re what it means re identifying a term. ...
14:08:21 [libby]
hi therealaliman :)
14:09:01 [danbri]
tom: i didn't see in scope statement for thes tf many of these issues
14:09:38 [danbri]
danbri: tom, could you talk us through the draft?
14:09:44 [danbri]
tom: interesting exchange w/ bernard...
14:10:15 [danbri]
...would like to limit the scope of VM note to issues on level of identifying terms, maybe identifying versions of terms, forming things like URI strings, what the considerations are...
14:10:25 [danbri]
...aware that practice evolving in this area
14:10:35 [danbri]
...good that ppl are trying out, experimenting, diff approaches
14:10:45 [danbri] re implied semantics (or lack thereof) re URI strings
14:11:17 [danbri]
...don't think we can necc achieve consensus on details of all these. But would be doing a service if ...
14:11:42 [danbri]
... at least point off to different approaches people are taking
14:12:35 [danbri]
danbri: +1
14:12:41 [danbri]
...storytelling approach good
14:12:47 [danbri]
tom: hope we can agree on some basic things
14:13:04 [danbri] that ppl identify policies (namespace policies etc) to articulate their assumptions more clearly
14:13:12 [danbri]
...give examples of these that have been deployed
14:13:47 [danbri]
tom: notion of assertion etiquette... would be nice to point to at least the notion that when citing others' terms... what sorts of issues do you need to consider
14:13:53 [danbri]
...finally, notion of documenting terms
14:14:01 [danbri] what a uri resolves to might be a rathole
14:14:14 [danbri]
...but we could point to main examples of practice out there
14:14:34 [danbri]
danbri: lots of namespaces now, many 404, ...
14:14:42 [danbri]
tom: not a huge scope, but would fill a gap
14:14:52 [danbri]
... i don't see anytthing out there that fills this role currently
14:15:18 [danbri]
...could also choose scope for a Note... and point off to other works (eg. THES in RDF point off to that TF)
14:15:43 [danbri]
...also things like registries which use, harvest or otherwise refer to these identifying terms
14:15:58 [danbri]
...we may want to point off to a few key entry points, portals, articles that summarise what's happening
14:16:09 [danbri]
...but declare out of scope [actually making one]
14:16:24 [danbri] through declaring our scope, also we'd be making a little landscape survey...
14:17:01 [danbri]
natasha: agree w/ Tom that there's no obvious conflict w/ Thesaurus TF
14:17:13 [danbri] time this one gets started, that'll probably be finishing
14:17:18 [danbri]
...we'll have info on what they've done
14:17:23 [therealaliman]
+1 on no conflict
14:17:26 [danbri]
...can also revisit our scope then
14:17:30 [danbri]
thanks Al
14:17:40 [danbri]
...agree w/ everything Tom said
14:17:57 [danbri] careful w/ scope, don't see this inherently super-broad so we'd not achieve a thing
14:18:16 [danbri]
...we should definitely look at what others (within w3c, elsewhere) have done; attempt summary...
14:19:12 [danbri]
libby: not so much to add, good idea to do this... we've often seen eg in FOAF, various little practical impediments to deployment
14:19:31 [danbri]
tom: ideas on how we might proceed...
14:19:57 [danbri]
... I feel like draft scope statement... could be made into a pretty straightforward job
14:20:18 [danbri]
...I could turn it into a more detailed outline (not having heard objections to it)
14:20:39 [danbri]
...we could plug in more placeholders to it, and assign folks to subsections, as we've quite a range of expertise within TF members
14:21:03 [danbri]
...we could probably within our own area of expertise rather quiuckly write a parag here, a parag there. just *describing* relevant devlopments...
14:21:13 [danbri]
...I could start putting that together into a 1st draft
14:21:38 [danbri]
...somewhat reluctant w/ summer looming to start, people being away
14:21:45 [danbri]
...might be preferable to say we'll start in the fall
14:21:55 [danbri]
...when thes and other tfs will be further along
14:22:06 [danbri] a first step, to write a small outline
14:22:21 [danbri]
...we could try to at least include placeholders for major things
14:23:11 [danbri]
danbri: if we plan to start in the fall, but work thru summer to flesh out the scope note
14:23:42 [danbri]
tom: so start somewhat stealthily with the scoping text as focus, plan bigger formal start towards Note after summer
14:23:57 [danbri]
tom: one deliverable expected of a TF is the scope note
14:24:06 [danbri]
...maybe we could declare it frozen at some point...
14:24:42 [danbri]
...then successor versions might be seen more as draft Note
14:25:26 [danbri]
danbri: it's pretty much up to us how much we couch this as refining the scope note vs drafting a deliverable
14:26:28 [danbri]
-- What should term URIs "resolve to" (eg, TAG
14:26:28 [danbri]
recommendations with regard to RDF or RDDL)?
14:27:41 [danbri]
14:27:53 [danbri]
tom: TAG finding relevant here
14:28:03 [danbri]
...also for eg i stumbled across a schema versioning doc
14:28:25 [danbri]'d be good to feel confident that we'd identified a pretty full list of relevant w3c docs
14:28:28 [Natasha]
+1 on identifying the list of relevant W3C documents
14:29:14 [aliman]
tom - got a url for that schema versioning doc you mentioned?
14:29:49 [danbri]
tom: my 'dependencies' section is morphing into a survey...
14:30:05 [Tbaker_]
aliman, i'll send in email
14:31:37 [libby]
wiki for faqs?
14:31:50 [danbri]
danbri: as we work, we'll find questions and be trying to answer them (eg. arabic r2l class names), how to collect these?
14:31:59 [danbri]
tom: re process, I'm happy w/ cvs etc tools
14:32:17 [danbri]
...assume most/all discussion will happen on the main taskforce list
14:32:42 [danbri] pretty flexible
14:33:00 [danbri]
...would like to take it a little furtther before summer vacations take over
14:33:15 [danbri]
...we could have a document for collecting open questions
14:33:21 [aliman]
fyi been playing with wikis ...
14:34:43 [libby]
14:34:55 [danbri]
danbri: once we have a draft, how to solicit input from Dublin Core?
14:35:02 [danbri]
...dc-arch, AB, dc-general?
14:35:18 [danbri]
tom: might be a premature concern! at some point we might seek feedback on specific issues...
14:35:36 [danbri]
...there are areas of evolving defacto practice within dcmi that aren't yet formally approved policies...
14:35:48 [danbri]
...but since i'm the one who is doing that, ... i can at least describe that.
14:36:06 [danbri]
...certainly we could ask the DC Usage Board, etc.
14:36:43 [danbri]
danbri: was thinking more 'how do we know if we've done a good job in our doc'
14:37:39 [danbri]
tom: sounds like the group is the right size. haven't heard any showstopper criticism of general idea. seems a sense it's doable.
14:37:57 [danbri]
...maybe accomplished task for the call
14:39:03 [danbri]
tom: re Application profiles, i hope we'll have some general principles for identifying terms, versions of, etc.
14:39:13 [libby]
libby very interested in application profiles..but a big deal
14:39:17 [danbri]
...once we get beyond that, i tend to think we'll be more in a role of summarising and profile
14:39:32 [danbri] profiles probably all we can do is point off at things
14:40:15 [danbri]
...not sure how much more census we'd have.
14:40:33 [danbri]
...also tension re inventing vs describing 'best practice' trends; assuming more latter
14:42:27 [libby]
danbri describes app profiles - practice of using various vocabs together, document-orientated
14:43:21 [danbri]
tom: to me, interesting thing about app profiles, is that every maintaince community for a vocab that i know of... or at least most... have invented some sort of notion of profile.
14:43:36 [danbri]
...that you're not using the entire vocab, using a subset, constraining it in certain ways, ...
14:43:50 [danbri]
...and often looking for a way to document that
14:44:15 [danbri]
...the fact that this is reinvented in all these various contexts... is a sign that this is something that people [think they] want
14:44:18 [danbri]
...and want to see some progress
14:44:35 [danbri]
...a task in itself
14:44:48 [danbri] least a parag or two in the scope
14:45:10 [libby]
14:48:44 [libby]
danbri explaijns the foaf experience of people looking for xml dtd-type document-level valiudation tools and examples and not finding them
14:48:53 [libby]
[paraphrasing, sorry]
14:48:56 [danbri]
np, ta
14:49:39 [danbri]
tom: this relates to exchange today w/ bernard... this is a 'best practice' group for SW. I've a certain notion of what that means. We're trying to ... recommend how ppl can identify and declare things in a way that makes them re-usable by others.
14:49:49 [danbri], re-purposing is key
14:50:14 [danbri]
14:50:44 [danbri]
...shouldn't lose the opportunity, even in a short note on vocab management, to emphasis that this isn't bp for vocabs in closed systems, but in a global, open system
14:50:48 [danbri]
14:50:56 [danbri]
...could be repurpses, reused
14:51:01 [aliman]
14:52:09 [danbri]
tom: ...your terms can be used by others in unexpected environments
14:52:23 [danbri]
...bp has to do with articulating and understanding what that implies
14:52:34 [danbri]
...for the things that you're publically identifying
14:52:53 [danbri]
...if you're following the guidelines, you're interested in doing things in a referencable and reusable manner
14:53:01 [danbri]
tom: this emerged more in the recent email exchange
14:53:28 [danbri]
action: tom to add text to VM scope note emphasising re-use in a global system
14:53:35 [danbri]
tom, am focussing on a short doc, < 10 pages
14:54:43 [danbri]
danbri: short is good. ppl don't read long ones. but some issues (eg / vs #) might spin off into their own, longer efforts, ...
14:55:18 [danbri]
tom: if nobody has sat down and described that problem in all its philosophical ramifications... maybe there should be a TF especially for it
14:55:39 [Natasha]
sorry, I have to leave in a minute or two ....
14:55:53 [danbri]
danbri: could go out as a separate note if needed
14:56:53 [danbri]
RESOLVED: we think VM roughly on right track, will refine some more before summer, plan full start in fall.
14:57:09 [Zakim]
14:57:11 [Zakim]
14:57:18 [danbri]
rrsagent, bye
14:57:18 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item:
14:57:18 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: tom to add text to VM scope note emphasising re-use in a global system [1]
14:57:18 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
14:57:18 [Zakim]
14:57:19 [Zakim]
SW_BPD(WNET)10:00AM has ended