13:56:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:56:19 <sh1m> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
13:56:19 <Zakim> ok, sh1m; I see WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:58:59 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
13:59:42 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
13:59:49 <Zakim> +Jim_Thatcher
14:00:03 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:00:04 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
14:00:22 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
14:00:24 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
14:00:24 <MichaelC> just in case nobody did that yet
14:00:24 <MichaelC> my connection keeps dropping today
14:00:27 <JimT> JimT has joined #wai-wcag
14:01:01 <Zakim> +??P4
14:01:02 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
14:01:07 <Zakim> +??P6
14:01:19 <bcaldwell> zakim, ??P4 is Ben
14:01:19 <Zakim> +Ben; got it
14:01:24 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
14:01:25 <MichaelC> zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis
14:01:25 <Zakim> +Jenae_Andershonis; got it
14:01:32 <bcaldwell> zakim, ??P6 is David
14:01:33 <Zakim> +David; got it
14:01:47 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P6 is David_MacDonald
14:01:47 <Zakim> I already had ??P6 as David, MichaelC
14:01:50 <Zakim> +??P8
14:02:08 <bcaldwell> zakim, ??P8 is Tom
14:02:08 <Zakim> +Tom; got it
14:02:15 <Zakim> +Chris_Ridpath
14:02:34 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
14:02:47 <bcaldwell> zakim, who is on the phone?
14:02:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ben, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson
14:03:08 <sh1m> Zakim, I am Tom
14:03:08 <Zakim> ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom
14:03:15 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
14:03:20 <bcaldwell> zakim, I am Ben
14:03:20 <Zakim> ok, bcaldwell, I now associate you with Ben
14:03:48 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
14:03:54 <Zakim> +Wendy
14:04:08 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ben, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy
14:04:40 <wendy> wendy has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:57 <wendy> zakim, who's on the call?
14:04:57 <Zakim> On the phone I see Jim_Thatcher, Jenae_Andershonis, Michael_Cooper, Ben, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy
14:05:14 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
14:06:38 <MichaelC> --html techniques--
14:06:40 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0593/2004-06-07gl-to-htmltech_notes.html
14:10:25 <MichaelC> action: Michael create "don't use layout table" maps to 4.1.1.1
14:11:12 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
14:11:20 <MichaelC> where do you say you had to violate spec in 4.1?
14:11:31 <MichaelC> table summary? nightmare!
14:11:37 <MichaelC> accessibility statement
14:12:04 <MichaelC_> MichaelC_ has joined #wai-wcag
14:15:45 <Zakim> +??P21
14:17:35 <bcaldwell> zakim ??P21 is Lisa
14:17:42 <sh1m> Zakim, ??p21 is Lisa
14:17:42 <Zakim> +Lisa; got it
14:17:43 <MichaelC_> action: Michael ask larger group about how to document you used layout tables and it's ok
14:19:40 <MichaelC_> ascii art does not map to 4.1.3.1
14:21:52 <MichaelC_> does doctype map to 4.1.1.1?
14:23:11 <MichaelC> action: Michael create technique for misuse of lists, maps to 4.1.3.1
14:24:01 <MichaelC> action: Michael map doctype to 4.1.1.1
14:25:31 <MichaelC> quality of alt text, e.g., misusing to pad search engine results
14:26:14 <MichaelC> action: Michael propose technique for abuse of alt text maps to 4.1.1.1
14:30:32 <MichaelC> action: Michael raise question about plugins (4.2.1.1) to larger group
14:30:39 <wendy> brb
14:33:01 <MichaelC> text equivalents in HTML if the plugin is accessible?
14:35:03 <MichaelC> agenda+ text equivalents in HTML if plugin accessible
14:35:23 <MichaelC> agenda+ whether to permit layout tables or not, at what levels, etc.
14:38:05 <wendy> 4.2 level 2 - alt attribute of img is an accessibility convention of html
14:40:12 <MichaelC> action: Michael go to larger group about 4.2.2.1
14:40:28 <wendy> - if an accessibility feature, use it?
14:41:24 <wendy> is something inaccessible if it uses conventions of the markup, but as an alternative? (i.e., using rdf)
14:42:22 <wendy> could be misused to declare things that either isn't the best alternative or is somebody's requirement
14:42:37 <wendy> e.g., someone creates an api for markup and it is not the best, then you are required to use it.
14:43:06 <wendy> e.g., longdesc. pg w/image and description of the image. this criterion imply have to use longdesc even though may make sense to have image followed by description.
14:47:16 <bcaldwell> brb
14:47:31 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
14:48:09 <wendy> spirit is that the accessibility conventions have been created or reviewed by people who know about accessibility issues.
14:48:21 <wendy> related to discussion about quality assurance discussion?
14:48:39 <wendy> related to discussion about quality assurance?
14:49:53 <MichaelC> action 7 = Michael go to larger group about 4.2.2.1 (input from Lisa, Tom)
14:50:41 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
14:50:43 <wendy> 4.2.3.1 eventually, may have technique, don't think we have one now
14:51:16 <wendy> 4.2.3.2 these techs do not include htmL?
14:51:46 <wendy> e.g., wireless markup site that points to html doc that your wireless device can't support.
14:52:38 <wendy> can't say just html, b/c nothing to say that html will continue to be primary technology (xhtml, xforms)
14:52:51 <wendy> only thing totally comply: start w/plain text and work upwards.
14:53:17 <wendy> how relevant is this success criterion? any direct effect on html?
14:53:34 <wendy> perhaps we have general concerns about 4.2
14:54:54 <MichaelC> action 7 = Michael go to larger group about 4.2 (input from Lisa, Tom)
14:56:10 <wendy> won't go through the other view of the mapping now. but it is available.
14:56:23 <wendy> bugzilla issues
14:57:58 <wendy> our tinyurl is: http://tinyurl.com/2e5zw
14:58:33 <bcaldwell> or add 241, 246, 265, 300, 464 to http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/
14:59:22 <wendy> 652, 655
15:00:04 <wendy> we are looking for volunteers for these bugs:
15:00:04 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=241
15:00:52 <wendy> action jim - issue 241
15:01:04 <wendy> action: jim - issue 241
15:01:19 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=246
15:01:43 <wendy> e.g., a site that has 20 links at the top, no structure to skip past the link would be ineffective grouping.
15:01:51 <wendy> action: becky issue 246
15:02:19 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=265
15:03:35 <wendy> 265 write a proposal about use of title.
15:04:07 <wendy> tied to the UAAG problem related to acronym. UAAG says ok to render title in place of content. JAWS has a checkbox (read or don't) but doesn't read both).
15:04:09 <wendy> can't rely on today.
15:05:35 <wendy> current situation versus ideal situation. look at html spec, uaag, asst. tech support.
15:05:54 <wendy> action: sailesh issue 265
15:07:02 <wendy> action 10 = jim and sailesh issue 265
15:07:14 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=300
15:08:13 <wendy> use title? effect on other form labeling techniques.
15:08:27 <wendy> action: sailesh issue 300
15:09:05 <wendy> action 11 = jim and sailesh issue 300
15:09:24 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=464
15:09:33 <wendy> action: michael 464
15:09:56 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=652
15:10:26 <wendy> want separate techniques for when to use title or not
15:12:30 <wendy> action: michael take 652 to divide title technique into multiple techniques
15:13:02 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=655
15:13:26 <wendy> action: becky issue 655
15:21:19 <MichaelC> -- css technique mapping --
15:21:20 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0649/css-tech-map.html
15:22:16 <sh1m> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html
15:25:03 <wendy> ben's latest update of general, html, and css: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/2004/06/02-sc-techniques-mapping.html
15:25:55 <wendy> notice that css primarily maps to guidelines: 1.3, 1.4, 4.2 (as well as 1.1 and others, but primarily centered around these)
15:27:49 <wendy> fallback font: what is the accessibility issue? could choose a system font, that could be monospace or unreadable.
15:27:57 <wendy> We don't say anything about selecting readable fonts, specifically. We were supposed to add an issue related to the JIS guidelines and their requirement for selecting readable fonts. (@@add issue to bugzilla)
15:29:40 <Zakim> -Chris_Ridpath
15:29:54 <wendy> q1: accessibility issue?  not sure
15:30:10 <sh1m> are the css wg looking at this
15:30:19 <Zakim> +Chris_Ridpath
15:30:41 <sh1m> while its good that we are looking at best practice, there may be better vehicles for this for things which are accessibility issues
15:30:44 <wendy> a section of reference that links to "general good practice" that aren't necessarily related to accessibility
15:30:47 <sh1m> aren't
15:31:40 <wendy> action: wendy create "good practice" section that links to other references. move "fallback font" technique to that section.
15:32:00 <sh1m> 1.2 Specifying Font Characteristics
15:33:16 <sh1m> First thing that happened working on the HTML draft, was to take techniques and break them down. This techniques specify too much.
15:33:28 <sh1m> q: How atomic do the CSS techs need to be?
15:34:07 <sh1m> There are often multiple SC associated with single techniques
15:34:56 <sh1m> There is a direct relationship with the HTML techniques which we are not sure how to represent just yet in the mapping.
15:38:22 <sh1m> This mapping, with blindness and screen readers it is as easy to find out what the colour is and the font size is. Should this relate to 1.2?
15:39:26 <sh1m> This is specific to text fonts and we can expand to audio later
15:39:45 <sh1m> This is all appropriate structure is being used, which is a relationship with HTML/XML etc
15:40:22 <sh1m> Maybe there is a different technique which asks are you adding colour to a specific 'type' (class)
15:41:03 <sh1m> 1.2, 1.5, 1.7, 1.8
15:41:04 <wendy> technique specific to adding color to specific type or class?
15:41:20 <sh1m> relate to colour
15:41:30 <wendy> action: wendy remove mapping from css: 1.2 to wcag: 1.3
15:41:50 <wendy> what's missing: when you should be using color. relates to emphasizing structure.
15:42:16 <wendy> what's a good default font? default font size? good default width for text container?
15:42:36 <wendy> what presentations are more accessible.
15:42:59 <sh1m> people can override the css
15:43:37 <sh1m> but there are still principles you should use to ensure that the default css is usable
15:43:49 <wendy> action: wendy and lisa look at css techniques to help make content more readable (guideline 3.1)
15:44:15 <sh1m> 1.3: HTML elements to control fonts
15:44:51 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#html-non-deprecated
15:45:04 <sh1m> Could move to HTML techniques
15:45:48 <sh1m> Relates to 4.1 and 4.2, appropriate mapping but not in the right place
15:45:53 <wendy> action: wendy cut and michael paste
15:46:19 <wendy> action 18 - wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech
15:46:26 <wendy> action: 18 - wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech
15:46:35 <wendy> RRSAgent, drop action 18
15:46:47 <wendy> action 19 = wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech
15:48:08 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#number-not-name
15:48:33 <wendy> sometimes people use names that browsers don't support or support inconsistently
15:48:47 <wendy> change this to:  use the names provided in the css 2.1 spec
15:49:07 <wendy> list of 16? colors
15:50:16 <sh1m> only use colours in the spec
15:50:30 <wendy> action: wendy use the names provided by the 2.1 spec (if you use color names, use the ones in the spec). maps to "use tech according to spec". don't need to mention numbers at all (best practices - web safe palette?)
15:51:01 <wendy> no longer maps to 1.3
15:53:18 <sh1m> ack sorry boss talking to me
15:54:06 <wendy> flow from html to css and general.  html says "use css to specify color" send to css tutorial or to css techs or to general?
15:54:17 <wendy> in case of specifying background/foreground - general
15:54:24 <wendy> contrast - general
15:54:40 <wendy> specifying colors - css spec or tutorial ... other resources
15:55:24 <wendy> level is different b/c you are in css. user can override foreground/background combo easily.
15:55:33 <sh1m> what about mixed styles sheets between user style sheets and author ones
15:56:48 <sh1m> interesting to send people to the css techniques to remind them of things to consider while doing your css. most concerns in HTML
15:58:00 <sh1m> mabye has css which mix into various techniques documents
15:59:16 <sh1m> 1.5, should this be removed and point to a css tutorial from HTML?
15:59:22 <sh1m> Yes
15:59:23 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#css-colors
15:59:35 <wendy> move to html and point to css spec or css tutorial
15:59:37 <sh1m> MichaelC, note time :)
16:00:22 <wendy> placeholder: css tech that says, "as writing css, if specify color for thes type of things...structure in html should be..."
16:00:28 <Zakim> -Lisa
16:00:48 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#good-contrast
16:00:52 <sh1m> 1.6, Foregroud background contrast
16:00:53 <wendy> move to general techs?
16:01:24 <wendy> link from css to general for this issue?
16:01:27 <wendy> for now: delete
16:01:39 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-CSS-TECHS-20040615.html#specify-fore-and-back
16:01:56 <sh1m> 1.7 Specifying fore- and background colors
16:01:58 <wendy> move to general techs. link from css to general? for now: delete
16:02:56 <wendy> next week: finish css mapping start w/1.8. finish discussion about tying documents together. review new internal HTML WD.
16:03:21 <Zakim> -Jenae_Andershonis
16:03:46 <bcaldwell> To create an account:
16:03:54 <Zakim> -Jim_Thatcher
16:03:55 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
16:03:56 <Zakim> -Tom
16:03:57 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
16:03:58 <Zakim> -Wendy
16:03:59 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
16:03:59 <bcaldwell> got to http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/
16:04:00 <Zakim> -Ben
16:04:01 <Zakim> -Chris_Ridpath
16:04:02 <Zakim> -David
16:04:03 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:04:03 <MichaelC> agenda?
16:04:05 <Zakim> Attendees were Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Ben, Jenae_Andershonis, David, Tom, Chris_Ridpath, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Lisa
16:04:20 <bcaldwell> select "Open a new WCAG Bugzilla Account"
16:05:03 <sh1m> right i am off home
16:05:08 <sh1m> back in a bit
16:41:24 <sh1mmer> Zakim, bye
16:41:24 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:41:32 <sh1mmer> RRSAgent, bye
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> I see 19 open action items:
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael create "don't use layout table" maps to 4.1.1.1 [1]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-10-25
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael ask larger group about how to document you used layout tables and it's ok [2]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-17-43
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael create technique for misuse of lists, maps to 4.1.3.1 [3]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-23-11
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael map doctype to 4.1.1.1 [4]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-24-01
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael propose technique for abuse of alt text maps to 4.1.1.1 [5]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-26-14
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael raise question about plugins (4.2.1.1) to larger group [6]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-30-32
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael go to larger group about 4.2 (input from Lisa, Tom) [7]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T14-40-12
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jim - issue 241 [8]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-04
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: becky issue 246 [9]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-51
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jim and sailesh issue 265 [10]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-05-54
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jim and sailesh issue 300 [11]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-08-27
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: michael 464 [12]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-09-33
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: michael take 652 to divide title technique into multiple techniques [13]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-12-30
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: becky issue 655 [14]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-13-26
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy create "good practice" section that links to other references. move "fallback font" technique to that section. [15]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-31-40
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy remove mapping from css: 1.2 to wcag: 1.3 [16]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-41-30
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy and lisa look at css techniques to help make content more readable (guideline 3.1) [17]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-49
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy cut css:1.3 and michael paste into html tech [19]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-46-26
16:41:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy use the names provided by the 2.1 spec (if you use color names, use the ones in the spec). maps to "use tech according to spec". don't need to mention numbers at all (best practices - web safe palette?) [20]
16:41:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/16-wai-wcag-irc#T15-50-30