IRC log of tagmem on 2004-06-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

18:55:54 [RRSAgent]

RRSAgent has joined #tagmem

18:56:02 [Chris]

zakim, this will be tag

18:56:02 [Zakim]

ok, Chris; I see TAG_Weekly()2:30PM scheduled to start 26 minutes ago

18:56:20 [Chris]

rrsagent, pointer?

18:56:20 [RRSAgent]

See http://www.w3.org/2004/06/14-tagmem-irc#T18-56-20

18:57:11 [Chris]

zakim, who is here?

18:57:11 [Zakim]

sorry, Chris, I don't know what conference this is

18:57:12 [Zakim]

On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, Chris

18:57:20 [Norm]

zakim, this will be tag

18:57:20 [Zakim]

ok, Norm; I see TAG_Weekly()2:30PM scheduled to start 27 minutes ago

18:57:36 [Chris]

zakim, i already told you that

18:57:36 [Zakim]

I don't understand 'i already told you that', Chris

18:57:46 [DanC]

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18:57:48 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has now started

18:57:55 [Zakim]

+Norm

18:58:32 [Norm]

Norm has changed the topic to: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2004Jun/0003.html

18:58:36 [Zakim]

+DanC

18:59:00 [Chris]

zakim, dial chris-617

18:59:00 [Zakim]

ok, Chris; the call is being made

18:59:01 [Zakim]

+Chris

18:59:21 [Chris]

zakim, who is here?

18:59:21 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Chris

18:59:22 [Zakim]

On IRC I see DanC, RRSAgent, Zakim, Norm, Chris

19:00:17 [DanC]

we shouldn't expect MJ

19:00:31 [DanC]

Roll call. Regrets: TBL, SW, IJ

19:01:27 [DanC]

NW: Let's record our regret at the tragic and untimely death of Mario

19:01:35 [DanC]

CL: 2nded

19:02:41 [Zakim]

+ +1.613.248.aaaa

19:02:51 [Norm]

zakim, aaaa is PaulC

19:02:51 [Zakim]

+PaulC; got it

19:03:12 [Stuart]

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19:03:51 [Norm]

Did you get home early, Stuart

19:04:14 [Stuart]

Yes.... will call in momentarily

19:05:16 [Zakim]

+Stuart

19:06:38 [DanC]

anyone who didn't realize the extent of Mario's work in support of the Web and W3C should definitely browser around his homepage http://www.jeckle.de/

19:07:07 [DanC]

Zakim, who's on the phone?

19:07:07 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Chris, PaulC, Stuart

19:09:49 [DanC]

RESOLVED: to record our regret at the tragic and untimely death of Mario

19:10:46 [Norm]

Thanks for letting me know, DanC

19:11:26 [Chris]

Stuart++

19:11:44 [Norm]

zakim, who's on the phone?

19:11:44 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Norm, DanC, Chris, PaulC, Stuart

19:12:05 [skw-scribe]

Regrets: TBL, IJ

19:12:05 [DanC]

I'm OK with http://www.w3.org/2004/06/07-tag-summary.html

19:12:15 [skw-scribe]

Absent RF

19:12:16 [Roy]

Roy has joined #tagmem

19:12:36 [skw-scribe]

RESOLVED to accept previous meeting minutes

19:12:58 [skw-scribe]

Agenda check:

19:13:13 [skw-scribe]

Agenda accepted.

19:13:19 [DanC]

I'm not available 21Jun

19:13:31 [Norm]

Regrets: NW, PC

19:13:48 [skw-scribe]

Next Meeting 21st June

19:13:54 [Norm]

Probably regrets: TBL

19:14:09 [Roy]

I am at risk (in Basel) on 21st

19:14:09 [skw-scribe]

Regrets from PC, NW, DC

19:14:58 [DanC]

I'm not available 28Jun either. I'm travelling by car from KC to NH with lots of other stops

19:16:02 [skw-scribe]

RESOLVE to cancel 21 June telcon

19:16:27 [skw-scribe]

Next Meeting 28 June: Regrets DC, TBL.

19:16:52 [Zakim]

+Roy

19:17:13 [skw-scribe]

RESOLVE to cancel 5th July. Next then 12th July.

19:19:16 [Roy]

/me me too

19:19:27 [skw-scribe]

Stuart notes future regrets 19th July-7th August

19:19:53 [skw-scribe]

NW/PC volunteer to prepare F2F agenda

19:20:20 [skw-scribe]

NW voluteers to chair telcons throug SW Absense.

19:20:34 [Norm]

NW notes that's 19 and 26 July

19:20:55 [DanC]

(has anybody picked which hotel they're going to? I like the redundancy of staying where somebody else has blazed the trail)

19:21:30 [Norm]

(not yet, but I'm going to try the place Paul suggested,if the price is within Sun limits)

19:21:34 [skw-scribe]

AC Meeting rescheduling. Seems unconfirmed. Carried forward.

19:21:55 [skw-scribe]

PC summarizes arrangements so far for Aug F2F.

19:23:31 [skw-scribe]

1.3 TAG Charter updates

19:23:54 [skw-scribe]

No available update re AB discussion.

19:24:08 [skw-scribe]

2 Technical

19:24:11 [skw-scribe]

-----------

19:25:05 [skw-scribe]

RESOLVED to drop Action IJ 2004/05/24/: Announce the closure of issue URIEquivalence-15

19:26:30 [Norm]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2004Jun/0010.html

19:26:47 [skw-scribe]

ACTION to Chris and Dan recorded as done or moot.

19:27:07 [skw-scribe]

xml11Names-46

19:27:10 [skw-scribe]

----------------

19:29:36 [skw-scribe]

RESOLVE ACTION Done: Action NW 2004/06/07: Write up XML 1.1 Question for the TAG. If there are no objections to formulation, forward to the XML CG on behalf of TAG

19:29:55 [skw-scribe]

RESOLVE to forward to XML CG

19:31:09 [skw-scribe]

Norm and Paul have already discussed with XML CG who are willing to pick this up

19:31:41 [skw-scribe]

2.2 httpRange-14 status update

19:31:44 [skw-scribe]

-------------------

19:31:52 [skw-scribe]

RF: No news since F2F

19:32:21 [skw-scribe]

DC: Roy do you have an update re: discussion on URI list.

19:32:42 [skw-scribe]

RF: Not at the moment - spam impaired.

19:33:02 [skw-scribe]

2.3 IRI Draft Status

19:33:05 [skw-scribe]

---------------

19:34:36 [skw-scribe]

DC: Reminds TAG wrt request to remove IRI section 7 from Charmod Fundementals.

19:35:29 [skw-scribe]

DC: Introduces note from i18n seeking clarification.

19:35:48 [skw-scribe]

RF: The IRI spec. is not done yet.

19:36:21 [skw-scribe]

CL: I accept this in theory, but ...??? (help)

19:37:19 [skw-scribe]

DC: Recap's on TAG request to split Charmod.

19:37:21 [paulc]

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19:37:32 [DanC]

CL (and I) find their argument reasonably well-made but not (yet?) convincing.

19:37:53 [Chris]

.... but in practice it becomes vanishingly less likely

19:38:42 [skw-scribe]

RF: As long as i18n are willing to accept the dependency on IRI wrt Charmod progress to REC.... wouldn't recommend it, but they could do that.

19:39:01 [skw-scribe]

RF: IRI isn't done until the IESG say that it is.

19:39:18 [skw-scribe]

RF: I'd prefer that they split it out.

19:40:23 [skw-scribe]

CL: i18n are arguing that testing should be addressed in IRI spec rather than Charmod.

19:40:41 [skw-scribe]

DC: Looks very much like a normative reference.

19:41:15 [DanC]

ack danc

19:41:15 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to note Roy seems to be answering one of the I18N WG's questions "2. Is the concern about the draft status of the IRI document or about the maturity of IRIs as a

19:41:18 [Zakim]

... technology?"

19:41:43 [skw-scribe]

DC: Question from i18n: are we concern about maturity of spec. or the IRI technology.

19:41:48 [paulc]

Steve Bratt message to AC members re Mario: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ac-members/2004AprJun/0053.html

19:42:51 [skw-scribe]

RF: Explains that IESG will be very concerned about anything that affects/impacts DNS. Concerns over where Punycode gets done.

19:43:34 [skw-scribe]

RF: Both URI and IRI are consistent, BUT both are I-Ds and may both encounter pushback from IESG.

19:43:46 [skw-scribe]

CL: There is deployment experience in Korea?

19:44:05 [skw-scribe]

RF: Some implementations in browsers...

19:44:28 [skw-scribe]

CL: Was talking about DNS more generally.?

19:44:49 [skw-scribe]

RF: It's deployed elsewhere too... Poland...

19:45:04 [Norm]

ack DanC

19:45:04 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to voice an I18N WG question about tests

19:45:08 [skw-scribe]

PC: Does the note from i18n require a response.?

19:45:18 [skw-scribe]

DC: yes.

19:45:36 [skw-scribe]

DC: Addressing the question what should we test...

19:46:17 [skw-scribe]

DC: quoting "IE, Opera, Safari have been doing the right thing...."

19:46:25 [Chris]

opera and safari and mozilla do the utf-8 to punycode conversion on dereference

19:47:06 [skw-scribe]

DC: Testing all the specs that reference the IRI spec is not, should not be the job of i18n.

19:47:48 [skw-scribe]

CL: Can't really just say that these things are doing the right thing. Need test cases that can be separately verified.

19:47:52 [skw-scribe]

q+

19:48:08 [Norm]

ack skw-scribe

19:48:56 [skw-scribe]

SW: Asks whether IRI spec contains test case cf test cases as in URI spec.

19:49:13 [skw-scribe]

CL: That would be hard in an ascii based doc.

19:49:54 [Norm]

ack DanC

19:49:54 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to follow up on Roy's point about accepting a normative reference to the IRI spec

19:50:05 [skw-scribe]

CL: I would like them to exist in the form that they are to be used.

19:50:41 [skw-scribe]

SW: Clarifies interest is in the existence of such test, comparible with tests in URI spec.

19:51:13 [skw-scribe]

DC/CL: Could request clarification of normative nature of reference to IRI spec.

19:51:40 [skw-scribe]

NW: 3 options

19:52:02 [skw-scribe]

1: something about test assertions.

19:52:35 [Norm]

2: point out that the reference appears to be normative but isn't

19:53:06 [Norm]

3: ask them to acknowledge that they understand that the IRI spec isn't far enough along to normatively reference and ask what they propose to do about that

19:53:17 [DanC]

1: in response to their question of what to test, suggest that "browsers do the right thing" is worth testing

19:53:54 [skw-scribe]

PC: Question... isn't there a problem wrt to i18n declaiming responsibility for testing IRI implementation?

19:54:18 [skw-scribe]

CL: ...yes I agree.

19:54:25 [DanC]

(yes, that "not the job of the I18N WG" comment gave me pause)

19:54:47 [skw-scribe]

CL: reiterates previous aquisence was on the basis of the need for testing.

19:55:07 [Norm]

4: TAG believes that I18N within the W3C needs to get clear understanding with other working groups about who holds the responsiblity for testing I18N features in the other specs

19:55:53 [DanC]

I can't sign up to 4: yet

19:55:59 [skw-scribe]

DC: I think that their position is reasonable - that that WG bears responsibilty for own testing of i18n features.

19:56:45 [skw-scribe]

PC: Possibly need a test-suite that sweeps across multiple specs.

19:57:09 [Chris]

the i18n wg could help ensure that individual wgs do in fact test things like use of non-english tet, etc (not just in iris)

19:57:18 [skw-scribe]

DC: You've identified a problem, but it may not be the most constructive thing to address that at i18n.

19:57:46 [skw-scribe]

NW: Are we at point of dimishing returns wrt this immediate discussion.

19:58:22 [Chris]

ACTION CL: draft text and send to TAG for review

19:59:00 [skw-scribe]

2.4 Web Architecture LC

19:59:16 [skw-scribe]

Action Summary:

19:59:29 [skw-scribe]

Continue: Action NW 2004/06/07: Write up XML 1.1 Question for the TAG. If there are no objections to formulation, forward to the XML CG on behalf of TAG

20:00:10 [skw-scribe]

Action CL 2004/05/14: Some progress, please continue.

20:00:22 [Norm]

Action NW 2004/05/14: Propose text on tradeoffs for section 4.2.2, continued

20:00:27 [Chris]

stuart, nw action is completed

20:00:53 [skw-scribe]

Action TBL 2004/06/08 some progress... continuing.

20:01:16 [Norm]

ack danc

20:01:16 [Zakim]

DanC, you wanted to suggest soliciting reviewers

20:01:20 [skw-scribe]

Re 8 June Draft: Comments...

20:02:17 [skw-scribe]

DC: Suggest requesting some reviews top to bottom.

20:02:25 [skw-scribe]

DC: Two people.

20:02:34 [skw-scribe]

NW: ...by sections?

20:02:51 [skw-scribe]

PC: There are a bunch of changes.

20:03:08 [skw-scribe]

DC: I'll take section 2.

20:03:22 [skw-scribe]

PC: I'll do section 1

20:03:33 [DanC]

http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2004/webarch-20040608/

20:03:35 [skw-scribe]

PC: 1,5,6

20:03:49 [skw-scribe]

CL: Section 4.

20:03:56 [skw-scribe]

Norm front to back.

20:04:11 [skw-scribe]

Stuart: front to back too.

20:04:31 [Zakim]

-PaulC

20:05:07 [skw-scribe]

TAG notes Steve's announcment re Mario.

20:05:23 [paulc]

signing off and departing for my flight.

20:05:48 [skw-scribe]

CL: Propose that we individually devote 25 to personal reading of Web Arch.

20:05:59 [skw-scribe]

So. Resolved.

20:06:11 [Zakim]

-DanC

20:06:13 [Zakim]

-Roy

20:06:18 [Roy]

Roy has left #tagmem

20:06:24 [skw-scribe]

Meeting Adjourned.

20:06:30 [Zakim]

-Norm

20:06:31 [Zakim]

-Stuart

20:06:38 [Zakim]

-Chris

20:06:39 [Zakim]

TAG_Weekly()2:30PM has ended

20:06:40 [Zakim]

Attendees were Norm, DanC, Chris, +1.613.248.aaaa, PaulC, Stuart, Roy

21:39:11 [Norm]

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22:26:54 [Zakim]

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