19:41:46 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:41:53 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log public
19:41:58 <wendy> RRSAgent, make log world
19:53:35 <Yvette_Hoitink> Hi Bengt, hi Wendy
19:53:47 <wendy> hello yvette, hello bengt
19:53:53 <bengt> hi everyone
19:55:16 <nabe> nabe has joined #wai-wcag
19:55:19 <bengt> zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
19:55:19 <Zakim> ok, bengt; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
19:56:31 <Yvette_Hoitink> Cool to see my proposal made it to the agenda ;-)
19:56:42 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:56:49 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
19:56:55 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
19:57:16 <MichaelC> zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
19:57:16 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
19:57:16 <Yvette_Hoitink> Hi Michael
19:57:20 <MichaelC> Hi yvette
19:58:34 <sh1m> sh1m has joined #wai-wcag
19:58:47 <Yvette_Hoitink> Hi Tom
19:58:53 <sh1m> whatcha
19:58:55 <wendy> zakim, this will be wcag
19:58:55 <Zakim> ok, wendy, I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM already started
19:59:00 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
19:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper
19:59:07 <wendy> michael is prompt. :)
19:59:08 <Zakim> + +1.441.915.aaaa
19:59:12 <Zakim> +??P2
19:59:19 <Zakim> + +1.512.476.aabb
19:59:24 <MichaelC> my work clock is a few minutes fast I think
19:59:42 <Zakim> +Wendy
19:59:50 <sh1m> Zakim, ??P2 might be Tom
19:59:50 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P2 might be Tom', sh1m
19:59:53 <wendy> yes, my clock says 3:59 :)
19:59:59 <wendy> zakim, 512 is John
19:59:59 <Zakim> sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named '512'
20:00:05 <wendy> zakim ??512 is John
20:00:09 <wendy> zakim, ??512 is John
20:00:09 <Zakim> sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named '??512'
20:00:12 <Zakim> +Andi_Snow_Weaver
20:00:14 <bengt> zakim, ??P2 is Bengt_Farrre
20:00:14 <Zakim> +Bengt_Farrre; got it
20:00:15 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:15 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, +1.441.915.aaaa, Bengt_Farrre, +1.512.476.aabb, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver
20:00:23 <wendy> zakim, +1.512.476.aabb is John_Slatin
20:00:23 <Zakim> +John_Slatin; got it
20:00:32 <Zakim> +??P6
20:00:42 <Yvette_Hoitink> zakim, ??P6 is Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:42 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink; got it
20:00:43 <sh1m> Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, +1.441.915.aaaa, Bengt_Farrre, John_Slatin, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Yvette_Hoitink
20:00:53 <bengt> zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
20:00:53 <Zakim> sorry, bengt, I do not see a party named 'Bengt_Farre'
20:00:54 <Zakim> +??P5
20:01:02 <wendy> zakim, ??P5 is David_MacDonald
20:01:02 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
20:01:02 <bengt> zakim, I am Bengt_Farrre
20:01:03 <Zakim> ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farrre
20:01:10 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:10 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, +1.441.915.aaaa, Bengt_Farrre, John_Slatin, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Yvette_Hoitink, David_MacDonald
20:01:15 <Zakim> + +1.703.273.aacc
20:01:19 <bengt> zakim, mute me
20:01:19 <Zakim> Bengt_Farrre should now be muted
20:01:20 <Zakim> +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
20:01:26 <wendy> zakim, +1.703.273.aacc is Paul_Bohman
20:01:26 <Zakim> +Paul_Bohman; got it
20:01:27 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 <nabe> nabe has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:39 <sh1m> I might be 441
20:01:48 <sh1m> Some one mute that see if I can talk
20:02:13 <wendy> zakim, +1.441.915.aaaa may be Tom_Croucher
20:02:13 <Zakim> +Tom_Croucher?; got it
20:02:15 <Zakim> +??P9
20:02:23 <wendy> zakim, ??P9 is Gregg_and_Ben
20:02:23 <Zakim> +Gregg_and_Ben; got it
20:02:28 <Zakim> +??P10
20:02:34 <sh1m> Zakim, I am Tom
20:02:34 <Zakim> ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher?
20:02:39 <sh1m> Zakim, yes
20:02:39 <Zakim> I don't understand 'yes', sh1m
20:02:46 <sh1m> Zakim, I am Tom_Croucher
20:02:46 <Zakim> ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher?
20:02:46 <wendy> zakim, ??P10 is Takayuki_Watanabe
20:02:47 <Zakim> +Takayuki_Watanabe; got it
20:03:21 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:21 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Tom_Croucher? (muted), Bengt_Farrre (muted), John_Slatin, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Yvette_Hoitink, David_MacDonald, Paul_Bohman,
20:03:24 <Zakim> ... Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Gregg_and_Ben, Takayuki_Watanabe (muted)
20:03:50 <Zakim> +Avi_Arditti
20:04:03 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:04:23 <Becky> Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:27 <Zakim> +JasonWhite
20:04:39 <GVAN> GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:47 <Andi> Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:57 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson
20:05:04 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:05:16 <wendy> zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
20:05:16 <Zakim> +Mike_Barta; got it
20:05:47 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
20:06:26 <wendy> regrets: sailesh, roberto {costaldo, ellero, scano}, doyle
20:06:28 <Zakim> +Yvette_Hoitink
20:06:40 <wendy> scribe: andi
20:06:51 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phoen?
20:06:51 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, wendy.
20:06:55 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:06:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Tom_Croucher? (muted), Bengt_Farrre (muted), John_Slatin, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Paul_Bohman, Loretta_Guarino_Reid,
20:06:58 <Zakim> ... Gregg_and_Ben, Takayuki_Watanabe (muted), Avi_Arditti, Katie_Haritos-Shea, JasonWhite, Becky_Gibson, Mike_Barta, Yvette_Hoitink
20:07:06 <Zakim> +Matt
20:07:13 <sh1m> Zakim, Tom_Croucher? is Tom_Croucher
20:07:13 <Zakim> +Tom_Croucher; got it
20:08:25 <wendy> new internal WD: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-20040602.html
20:08:26 <Andi> New internal draft published today
20:08:38 <Andi> Suggestion to delete SC in 3.1
20:09:37 <Andi> "meaning of contracted words can be programmatically determined" should be deleted because it is covered by the next SC
20:09:42 <sh1m> Original proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0536.html
20:10:36 <Andi> no discussion, no opposition to removing this SC
20:10:38 <andyjudson> andyjudson has joined #wai-wcag
20:11:48 <Andi> next agenda item - walk through the guidelines
20:15:12 <Andi> may be able to remove some exceptions because they can be covered by "scoping"; i.e. Web site owners can exclude certain portions of Web site from conformance claim
20:15:45 <Andi> 1.1
20:16:07 <Andi> Mike: has a proposal for re-wording that removes need for exception
20:16:14 <Zakim> +??P16
20:16:28 <Andi> 1.1 SC 1 - marked for further discussion
20:16:29 <wendy> agenda+ discuss 1.1 per Mike's comment
20:16:35 <wendy> zakim, ??P16 is Kerstin 
20:16:35 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
20:18:17 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
20:18:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Tom_Croucher (muted), Bengt_Farrre (muted), John_Slatin, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, David_MacDonald, Paul_Bohman, Loretta_Guarino_Reid,
20:18:20 <Zakim> ... Gregg_and_Ben, Takayuki_Watanabe (muted), Avi_Arditti, Katie_Haritos-Shea, JasonWhite, Becky_Gibson, Mike_Barta (muted), Yvette_Hoitink, Matt, Kerstin
20:18:23 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+
20:18:27 <wendy> mike muted himself. :)
20:19:34 <wendy> ack mike
20:19:45 <wendy> ack yvette
20:19:54 <Andi> Yvette: candidate for scoping
20:20:25 <Andi> Yvette: 1.2 SC 3 is candidate for scoping
20:20:46 <Andi> 1.2 SC 4 is candidate for removal - can be covered by scoping
20:20:58 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:21:36 <bcaldwell> ack Gregg
20:21:40 <wendy> ack david
20:21:46 <Andi> 1.2 SC 5 candidate for removal - scoping
20:22:16 <Andi> 1.2 SC 6 candidate for removal - scoping
20:22:58 <Andi> 1.2 Level 2 SC 1 candidate for removal 
20:24:59 <andyjudson> andyjudson has joined #wai-wcag
20:26:39 <Zakim> -Kerstin
20:27:07 <Zakim> +??P12
20:27:20 <Andi> 2.1 Level 3 SC 1 & 3 - only difference is the scope
20:27:30 <wendy> zakim, ??P12 is Kerstin
20:27:30 <Zakim> +Kerstin; got it
20:28:03 <Zakim> -Avi_Arditti
20:28:16 <Andi> 2.2 SC 1.1 is candidate
20:28:58 <wendy> andi - i don't think we're identifying candidates for removal, i think we are identifying candidates for further discussion during this call.
20:29:15 <Andi> ok
20:30:14 <Andi> correction to minutes - these items are not candidates for removal but candidates for further discussion wrt scoping
20:32:01 <Andi> 2.4 SC 2.2 
20:33:11 <Andi> 2.4 SC 2.1 needs to be revisited - John thinks we decided last week that this is part of 1.3 and we removed it.
20:33:44 <Zakim> +Katie_Haritos-Shea
20:35:44 <Andi> clarification of definition of "scope" - tells you which parts of the content are covered
20:36:18 <Andi> 2.5 SC 2.2
20:36:39 <Andi> 2.5 SC 2.3
20:36:54 <Andi> 2.5 SC 3.1
20:38:33 <Andi> goal is to simplify or eliminate because we have scoping
20:39:30 <sh1m> So that scoping can be determined by legislators etc, rather than being a trait of the guidelines
20:39:31 <wendy> zakim, mute katie
20:39:31 <Zakim> Katie_Haritos-Shea should now be muted
20:39:46 <wendy> zakim, who's making noise?
20:39:59 <Zakim> wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: Michael_Cooper (14%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (4%), Gregg_and_Ben (85%)
20:41:47 <Andi> 3.1 SC 3.1 - some items in strategies may need to be discussed
20:44:09 <Andi> 4.1 SC 1.1
20:44:31 <Andi> 4.1 SC 3.1
20:45:28 <Andi> 4.1 SC 1.1 needs plain language re-write
20:47:39 <Andi> 4.2 SC 3.2 needs plain language re-write
20:47:46 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+
20:48:49 <Andi> 1.1 SC 1.1
20:49:31 <Andi> Yvette: likes the fact that sometimes we do have some scoping discussion in the success criteria - makes it really clear
20:49:53 <Andi> Yvette: if delete everything that can be handled by scoping, have a much less powerful document
20:50:52 <Andi> Yvette: scoping is part of criteria. Can't do everything at Level 1 but there should be some basic accessibility
20:51:12 <Andi> Yvette: scoping is good tool to distinguish between different levels of accessibility - shouldn't be too quick to cut it out
20:51:45 <Yvette_Hoitink> ack Yvette
20:53:29 <Andi> Mike: split content into different categories with specific requirements for alt text for that type of non-text content
20:54:25 <MichaelC> q+ to say I like Mike's approach, although the guidelines are probably agnostic to the existence of "null" alt text - that's an HTML technique and I'm not sure what the guideline requirement would be for that concept
20:54:47 <Andi> Categories: 1. non-text content having no bearing on meaning of content (there only for presentation)
20:55:14 <Andi> 2. non-text content that has iconic or functional use - alt text must detail the function of the the element
20:55:52 <Andi> 3. non-text resources that encode specific information in non-text form (chart, wav files, etc.) 
20:56:57 <Andi> 4. non-text resources which encode no specific information (for example sensory experience)
20:58:12 <Andi> 4. alt text must explain what the resource is and what relevance it has to the content
20:58:12 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+
20:59:34 <Andi> Mike to send proposed wording to list
20:59:40 <MichaelC> q-
20:59:50 <Andi> People with concerns need to respond within two days
21:00:14 <Andi> Yvette: how does this solve the scoping question?
21:00:16 <sh1m> q+
21:00:57 <Andi> Mike will re-write based on comments posted to the list
21:01:10 <Zakim> -Kerstin
21:01:20 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
21:01:29 <bcaldwell> ack Tom
21:01:39 <bcaldwell> ack Mike
21:01:42 <bcaldwell> ack Kerstin
21:02:04 <bcaldwell> ack Yvette
21:02:29 <Andi> "my site conforms except for all the pictures" is not a valid scoping statement
21:02:47 <Andi> can only exclude sections of the site, not "elements" of pages
21:06:16 <Zakim> -Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:06:53 <Andi> David: how will we make sure people don't scope out things horizontally?
21:07:01 <Andi> Gregg: okay except at Level 1
21:07:13 <bcaldwell> q+
21:07:46 <wendy> ack john
21:08:31 <Andi> John: Doesn't see that Mike's re-statement or current wording are "scoping" issues because have to do with purpose of content not where it appears on site
21:08:45 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "spelling test"
21:08:55 <Andi> John: agrees that there is a clarity issue but not sure it applies to scoping
21:09:00 <wendy> ack yvette
21:09:00 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "spelling test"
21:09:13 <Andi> Yvette: was an exception in 1.1 for "spelling test" which makes it a scoping issue.
21:09:40 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "example spelling test in scoping"
21:09:44 <wendy> q+ gregg
21:09:48 <wendy> ack bcaldwell
21:10:21 <wendy> q+ to say "content aggregators - related to Ben's question"
21:10:38 <sh1m> q+
21:10:42 <Andi> Ben: understood you could scope out aspects of site for which you have no control; for example, framework is conforming except for submissions by users of the site
21:10:59 <wendy> ack yvette
21:10:59 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "example spelling test in scoping"
21:11:20 <Andi> Yvette: examples can clarify how you can use scoping
21:11:56 <wendy> spelling test could either be vertical or horizontal exception/scoping
21:12:12 <wendy> ack gregg
21:12:42 <wendy> ack wendy
21:12:42 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to say "content aggregators - related to Ben's question"
21:12:54 <Andi> Gregg: Notes or examples could explain
21:13:20 <Andi> Wendy: need to understand how this applies to "content aggregators" 
21:14:07 <Andi> Wendy: John raised a good example about a learning application. if framework is accessible but actual lessons are not, it's not useful
21:14:21 <sh1m> ack tom
21:15:07 <wendy> q+ to ask, "how does scoping apply to web services? or personalized pages that you don't know what the framework is?"
21:15:12 <Andi> Tom: still not quite scoping because not saying everything on a spelling test should be exempt. Only those elements that are essential to spelling test function are excluded
21:16:56 <wendy> ack mike
21:17:04 <Andi> Tom: Scoping would exempt whole page but with spelling test only exempting certain elements on the page
21:17:40 <Andi> Mike: 2 aggregation issues in Bugzilla. 
21:18:06 <Andi> Mike: Would like to treat anything aggregated into a page as part of page - issue is testing
21:18:06 <sh1m> q+
21:18:39 <wendy> need to make sure when exempt spelling test we don't accidentally exempt captcha
21:20:15 <Andi> Gregg: restates Ben's comment - not just "spelling". could be anywhere in the guidelines where something is presented in a bad form for the purpose of correcting it.
21:20:27 <wendy> ack wendy
21:20:27 <Zakim> wendy, you wanted to ask, "how does scoping apply to web services? or personalized pages that you don't know what the framework is?"
21:21:00 <Andi> Wendy: scoping by content type and "profiles"
21:21:10 <Andi> don't want to accidentally exempt captcha
21:21:23 <Andi> Wendy: how does this apply to web services?
21:22:03 <Andi> Gregg: where user gets to pick what goes on their home page for example
21:22:30 <Andi> Wendy: been discussing adding metadata to components. would help aggregators (both services and people)
21:22:45 <Andi> Wendy: don't know if we can "require" metadata but it would make things a lot easier
21:22:55 <Yvette_Hoitink> q+ to say "effective"
21:23:00 <Andi> Wendy: metadata requirement would fall under guideline 4
21:23:15 <sh1m> ack tom
21:24:08 <Andi> Tom: agrees with Mike about aggregation. aggregated content should be responsibility of aggregator but source must also be responsible
21:25:06 <Andi> Tom: still doesn't think "spelling test" example is scoping but thinks that demonstrations of bad things that need to be corrected can be scoping
21:25:44 <Andi> John: ways of using metadata to describe examples of inaccessible content and could also use actual human readable text
21:26:08 <Andi> John: there are specifications for accessible learning technologies which we ought to look at
21:26:13 <Andi> Action John: look at these specs
21:26:29 <Andi> Yvette: if we require metadata, SC will be less effective
21:26:42 <wendy> action: john look at IMS specs for tests, metadata, etc.
21:26:58 <Andi> Yvette: SC depend on how much they help accessibility and how many people will do it
21:27:20 <bcaldwell> ack John
21:27:22 <bcaldwell> ack Yvette
21:27:22 <Zakim> Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "effective"
21:27:42 <wendy> ack matt
21:27:54 <wendy> ack john
21:28:16 <MattSEA> MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
21:29:25 <Andi> Gregg summarizes: spelling test and aggregator are open issues under scoping
21:30:25 <wendy> open issues: spelling test and aggregator issues
21:30:35 <wendy> action: mike send proposal/summary wrt 1.1
21:31:40 <wendy> ===
21:32:12 <wendy> next week: normative checklists
21:32:17 <wendy> week after: 1.2
21:32:25 <wendy> next week: defn of structure? more scoping?
21:33:07 <MattSEA> MattSEA has left #wai-wcag
21:33:45 <Andi> face to face in Palo Alto hosted by Oracle July 12 - 15
21:34:56 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
21:42:16 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
21:42:17 <Zakim> -John_Slatin
21:42:18 <Zakim> -JasonWhite
21:42:19 <Zakim> -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:42:20 <Zakim> -Andi_Snow_Weaver
21:42:21 <Zakim> -Matt
21:42:22 <Zakim> -Bengt_Farrre
21:42:27 <Zakim> -Mike_Barta
21:42:28 <nabe> good bye
21:42:29 <Zakim> -Wendy
21:42:35 <bengt> bye
21:42:36 <Zakim> -Takayuki_Watanabe
21:42:38 <bengt> bengt has left #wai-wcag
21:42:58 <Zakim> -Paul_Bohman
21:43:08 <Zakim> -Yvette_Hoitink
21:43:09 <Zakim> -Gregg_and_Ben
21:43:10 <Zakim> -Tom_Croucher
21:43:11 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:43:12 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Bengt_Farrre, John_Slatin, Yvette_Hoitink, David_MacDonald, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Paul_Bohman, Gregg_and_Ben,
21:43:14 <Zakim> ... Takayuki_Watanabe, Avi_Arditti, Katie_Haritos-Shea, JasonWhite, Becky_Gibson, Mike_Barta, Matt, Tom_Croucher, Kerstin
21:43:23 <wendy> zakim, bye
21:43:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:43:26 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
21:43:26 <RRSAgent> I see 2 open action items:
21:43:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: john look at IMS specs for tests, metadata, etc. [1]
21:43:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/03-wai-wcag-irc#T21-26-42
21:43:26 <RRSAgent> ACTION: mike send proposal/summary wrt 1.1 [2]
21:43:26 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/06/03-wai-wcag-irc#T21-30-35