IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:50:45 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:50:46 [rscano]
19:53:48 [sh1mmer]
RRSAgent, make logs public
19:53:57 [sh1mmer]
RRSAgent, make logs world-access
19:57:46 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
19:57:53 [Zakim]
19:57:57 [MichaelC]
MichaelC has joined #wai-wcag
19:58:16 [rscano_mobile]
hi michael
19:58:27 [MichaelC]
Hey Roberto
19:58:40 [rscano_mobile]
all ok?
19:59:07 [MichaelC]
super busy, lots of projects, but basically that's good
19:59:14 [Zakim]
19:59:20 [rscano_mobile]
me too
19:59:33 [Zakim]
19:59:36 [MichaelC]
zakim, I am Michael
19:59:36 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
19:59:51 [MichaelC]
zakim, mute me
19:59:51 [Zakim]
Michael_Cooper should now be muted
19:59:56 [Zakim]
20:00:58 [Zakim]
20:01:10 [MattSEA]
MattSEA has joined #wai-wcag
20:01:11 [Zakim]
20:01:31 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P4 is Bengt_Farre
20:01:31 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
20:01:36 [bengtf]
zakim, ??P4 is Bengt_Farre
20:01:36 [Zakim]
I already had ??P4 as Bengt_Farre, bengtf
20:01:44 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:01:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper (muted), ??P2, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre, Sailesh_Panchang
20:01:50 [bengtf]
zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
20:01:50 [Zakim]
ok, bengtf, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
20:01:51 [rscano_mobile]
who is p2?
20:01:56 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P2 is David_MacDonald
20:01:56 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
20:02:04 [bengtf]
zakim, mute me
20:02:04 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:02:35 [MattSEA]
we will need a volunteer to scribe...
20:02:50 [Zakim]
20:03:00 [MattSEA]
zakim, matt has Wendy
20:03:00 [Zakim]
+Wendy; got it
20:03:10 [Zakim]
20:03:37 [Zakim]
20:03:43 [MattSEA]
zakim, who's here?
20:03:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper (muted), David_MacDonald, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre (muted), Sailesh_Panchang, Matt, JasonWhite (muted), ??P6
20:03:50 [Zakim]
Matt has Wendy
20:03:52 [Zakim]
On IRC I see MattSEA, MichaelC, RRSAgent, Zakim, andyjudson, rscano_mobile, bengtf, sh1mmer
20:04:12 [MattSEA]
zakim, ??P6 is Gregg_and_Ben
20:04:12 [Zakim]
+Gregg_and_Ben; got it
20:05:12 [Zakim]
20:05:14 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:28 [Zakim]
20:06:00 [Zakim]
20:06:35 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:01 [Zakim]
+ +1.315.347.aaaa
20:07:25 [Zakim]
20:07:29 [Zakim]
20:07:34 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Yvette_Hoitink has joined #wai-wcag
20:07:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Hi all, sorry I'm late
20:07:53 [Zakim]
20:08:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:08:01 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper (muted), David_MacDonald, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre (muted), Sailesh_Panchang, Matt, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver,
20:08:01 [rscano_mobile]
zakim, who is on the phone?
20:08:04 [Zakim]
... +1.315.347.aaaa, Tom_Croucher, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:08:06 [Zakim]
Matt has Wendy
20:08:07 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Michael_Cooper (muted), David_MacDonald, John_Slatin, Bengt_Farre (muted), Sailesh_Panchang, Matt, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver,
20:08:09 [Zakim]
... +1.315.347.aaaa, Tom_Croucher, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kerstin_Goldsmith
20:08:09 [sh1mmer]
zakim, i am tom
20:08:10 [Zakim]
Matt has Wendy
20:08:11 [Zakim]
ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
20:08:26 [bengtf]
zakim, is Yvette
20:08:26 [Zakim]
+Yvette; got it
20:08:53 [Yvette_Hoitink]
That's a very odd number for me
20:09:03 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Bengt, are you sure that's me?
20:09:11 [bengtf]
20:09:15 [Zakim]
20:09:22 [Yvette_Hoitink]
odd, I'm not calling from the US
20:09:31 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, I am Yvette
20:09:31 [Zakim]
ok, Yvette_Hoitink, I now associate you with Yvette
20:09:44 [bengtf]
what service do you use ?
20:10:12 [Yvette_Hoitink]
a pre-dialer but last week it listed me as my regular number (+31.53.4772452)
20:10:45 [bengtf]
ok, strange
20:10:53 [Yvette_Hoitink]
I have to dial 1649 before my number and then I only pay 1 cent/minute
20:11:15 [bengtf]
do mute by keypad and lets see if you can talk :)
20:11:22 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
20:11:22 [Zakim]
Yvette should now be muted
20:11:58 [bengtf]
yvette if you talk we cant hear you :)
20:12:02 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:12:22 [sh1mmer]
Agenda item 1
20:12:31 [sh1mmer]
20:12:44 [sh1mmer]
Proposal for guideline 2.4
20:14:25 [sh1mmer]
Missed the part about independance of the author. Sailesh says that if you use structure you are automatically helping the user to navigate.
20:14:37 [sh1mmer]
Gregg, says that it affects visable structure.
20:14:45 [sh1mmer]
20:14:48 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "seems to require a distinct layout for each individual element"
20:16:01 [sh1mmer]
Gregg wonders if a sighted person can't see something different then it isn't a structural different
20:17:05 [sh1mmer]
John asks if this is actually to do with Guideline one, because people should be able to 'percieve' the differences with different structures
20:17:17 [sh1mmer]
ack John
20:17:20 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:17:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute
20:17:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'unmute', Yvette_Hoitink
20:17:30 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute me
20:17:30 [Zakim]
Yvette should no longer be muted
20:18:38 [bcaldwell]
20:18:47 [bcaldwell]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:19:01 [Zakim]
bcaldwell, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (20%), Sailesh_Panchang (4%), Gregg_and_Ben (16%), Tom_Croucher (58%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (66%)
20:19:23 [sh1mmer]
Structure of content does not constrict graphics.
20:19:39 [sh1mmer]
Falls into both perception and operation
20:19:47 [sh1mmer]
such as markup of lists of items for operable
20:20:24 [sh1mmer]
Yvette suggests that it could limit layout, and does not want it in the guidelines at all in this form
20:20:59 [sh1mmer]
Yvette doesn't think it is possible to format it in a way which is appropraite for graphics designers
20:21:29 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette
20:21:29 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "seems to require a distinct layout for each individual element"
20:21:34 [sh1mmer]
ack Jason
20:21:52 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:21:55 [sh1mmer]
Gregg says that this is very general
20:22:24 [sh1mmer]
jason says not all structural elements are shown in all presentation, its not that structure is visible it depends on the presentation
20:23:19 [sh1mmer]
jason agree with Yvette that this kind of statement limits presentation and shouldn't be at level 1
20:23:23 [sh1mmer]
20:23:37 [sh1mmer]
jason agrees with john
20:23:55 [sh1mmer]
jason says it should be at at least level 2 if it should be in the document at all
20:25:19 [sh1mmer]
motion suggested to leave this at level two
20:25:33 [sh1mmer]
20:25:38 [sh1mmer]
ack john
20:25:40 [sh1mmer]
20:26:08 [sh1mmer]
gregg ask people for suggestions for ways to move meetings forward
20:26:37 [bengtf]
we can time with zakim for each item ...
20:26:43 [sh1mmer]
john suggests the chair declairs a time and adds reminders. at end of time ask for resolution
20:27:24 [sh1mmer]
john also suggests someone to be a faciliator who isn't actively participating, so that someone is distinguised between chair and discusor
20:27:38 [sh1mmer]
gregg is trying to fill these roles
20:27:45 [sh1mmer]
ack Jason
20:27:46 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "suggest to appoint action item if controversy"
20:28:17 [sh1mmer]
Give priority to items on the list, so that quick resolutions are achieved
20:28:31 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:29:33 [sh1mmer]
Jason says possibly not allow new points in calls
20:29:49 [rscano_mobil]
rscano_mobil has joined #wai-wcag
20:29:56 [sh1mmer]
tom says that a time limit for items which if resolution isn't reached at the end of call then it goes back to the list
20:30:14 [sh1mmer]
Yvette and Gregg agree a mix of prior points would be beneficial
20:31:12 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
20:31:14 [Zakim]
Yvette should now be muted
20:31:25 [sh1mmer]
encourage list discussion, set time limits, if agruments aren't going one way or another ask for a resolution
20:31:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute me
20:31:29 [Zakim]
Yvette should no longer be muted
20:31:34 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette_Hoitink
20:31:40 [Yvette_Hoitink]
ack YVette
20:31:40 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "suggest to appoint action item if controversy"
20:31:41 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette
20:31:45 [sh1mmer]
ack John
20:31:47 [sh1mmer]
20:31:50 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
20:31:50 [Zakim]
sorry, Yvette_Hoitink, I do not see a party named 'Yvette_Hoitink'
20:31:57 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, Yvette is Yvette_Hoitink
20:31:57 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink; got it
20:32:25 [sh1mmer]
move sucess critera to 1.3 level 2
20:32:27 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:36:47 [sh1mmer]
20:36:48 [sh1mmer]
20:37:00 [sh1mmer]
Nothing to do with css
20:37:08 [sh1mmer]
to do with default representation
20:37:36 [sh1mmer]
Gregg suggests removing this guideline
20:38:31 [sh1mmer]
q+ to say "it just clicked and its a UA issue"
20:38:34 [sh1mmer]
ack tom
20:38:35 [Zakim]
Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say "it just clicked and its a UA issue"
20:38:57 [MattSEA]
20:39:13 [bcaldwell]
20:39:15 [sh1mmer]
ack Matt
20:39:32 [sh1mmer]
tom says this is a user agent issue because if it is default presentation
20:40:17 [sh1mmer]
matt says there are guidelines on how to present it, which are presented in defined ways
20:40:21 [GVAN]
20:40:25 [sh1mmer]
matt you can't have n different views
20:40:49 [sh1mmer]
ack bcaldwell
20:40:59 [bcaldwell]
ack GVAN
20:41:06 [sh1mmer]
ben verifies that this is to remove the sucess criteria not the guideline
20:41:35 [sh1mmer]
gregg confirms this is to remove the success criteria not the guideline
20:42:40 [sh1mmer]
Action item 506
20:42:53 [sh1mmer]
Comment to clarify definition of structure
20:43:09 [sh1mmer]
20:43:37 [sh1mmer]
"Ensure that information structure of the code are seperable from presentation"
20:43:44 [GVAN]
20:44:08 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
20:44:08 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:44:19 [sh1mmer]
David suggests that structure is defined with an addition "We refer to structure as it is perceived by a User Agent such as a
20:44:20 [sh1mmer]
browser on the client side.
20:44:21 [sh1mmer]
20:44:27 [sh1mmer]
ack gvan
20:45:12 [sh1mmer]
concern about hierarchical and non-hierarchical strutcure
20:45:12 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:45:15 [sh1mmer]
ack john
20:45:25 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, who's making noise?
20:45:26 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (76%), Avi (10%)
20:45:40 [Zakim]
sh1mmer, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: John_Slatin (92%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (10%)
20:46:04 [sh1mmer]
Definitions have been explicitly or implicitly xml or html center
20:46:39 [sh1mmer]
john tried to imply that other things can have structure, eg svg, maths formulas
20:47:08 [sh1mmer]
so for example we don't want to say 'you must use svg to do graphics (to imply structure)'
20:47:28 [Yvette_Hoitink] structure = The way in which parts are arranged or put together to form a whole
20:47:29 [sh1mmer]
the use of the words 'elements' means something specific in markup languages
20:47:59 [sh1mmer]
say that some are hierarchical and some not and give example
20:48:02 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "dict. definition"
20:48:16 [sh1mmer]
gregg shall we just say the "intend relationships between the content"
20:48:45 [sh1mmer]
20:49:11 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, umnute me
20:49:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'umnute me', Yvette_Hoitink
20:49:30 [sh1mmer]
jason agrees with john
20:49:34 [bcaldwell]
ack JasonWhite
20:49:36 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute me
20:49:36 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:50:04 [sh1mmer]
jason says that images should be included in examples, but since they are not normative thats ok
20:50:08 [sh1mmer]
20:50:10 [bcaldwell]
ack Yvette
20:50:10 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "dict. definition"
20:50:10 [GVAN]
ack yvette
20:50:45 [sh1mmer]
Yvette has a useful from a dicitonary
20:51:11 [GVAN]
The way in which parts are put together to make a whole
20:51:13 [sh1mmer]
"structure is the way in which parts are arranged or puts to form a whole"
20:51:27 [sh1mmer]
put together
20:51:35 [sh1mmer]
ack tom
20:51:35 [bcaldwell]
ack Tom
20:52:03 [sh1mmer]
20:52:22 [bcaldwell]
ack Sailesh
20:52:38 [sh1mmer]
david said to makes sure people understood what was required
20:52:56 [sh1mmer]
concise defintion but wasn't useful
20:53:02 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, unmute sailesh
20:53:02 [Zakim]
Sailesh_Panchang was not muted, sh1mmer
20:53:20 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:53:26 [sh1mmer]
propesed that we add a few words that are "can be percieved"
20:54:02 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:54:16 [sh1mmer]
that means all html has to be made percieveabl
20:54:32 [sh1mmer]
john would be much happier if we accepted as a defintion of structure
20:54:41 [sh1mmer]
what Yvette_Hoitink proposed
20:54:54 [sh1mmer]
maybe change "whole" to "web resource" or some other appropriate term
20:55:00 [sh1mmer]
a definition just says what it is.
20:55:24 [sh1mmer]
structure is what structure is, the guideline defines what structure is
20:55:42 [sh1mmer]
the guidelines defines how structure must be used or be percievable
20:56:04 [bcaldwell]
ack Tom
20:56:58 [bcaldwell]
ack Jason
20:57:00 [sh1mmer]
tom not happy with def
20:57:44 [sh1mmer]
jason proposal for imformative should be taken to the mailing list
20:57:59 [sh1mmer]
worried about anything that says structure should be provided by the user agent
20:59:29 [sh1mmer]
worried about machine prossible at the user agent
20:59:57 [Zakim]
21:00:35 [sh1mmer]
jason: not require content which is given to the user agent is machine readble
21:00:59 [sh1mmer]
structure of content which is given to the UA is machine readble
21:02:11 [sh1mmer]
need to rewrite 1.3 to accomadte that the delivery might be taliored to the user
21:02:31 [sh1mmer]
and as such structure would be appropriate to that user even though the user agent cannot define the structure
21:02:49 [bcaldwell]
21:03:22 [bcaldwell]
ack David
21:04:19 [bcaldwell]
Ensure that information, functionality, and structure of the code and
21:04:20 [bcaldwell]
layout are separable from presentation
21:04:36 [sh1mmer]
"ensure that information functionality and layout of the code and layout are seperable from presentation
21:04:41 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "layout seperable from presentation???"
21:05:03 [bcaldwell]
ack Yvette
21:05:03 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "layout seperable from presentation???"
21:05:37 [sh1mmer]
layout and presenation are pretty much the same thing
21:05:59 [sh1mmer]
confusing to say that layout and presentation are seperable
21:06:38 [sh1mmer]
student of john's who is a native chinese speaker did not know what the word 'presentation' meant
21:06:44 [Zakim]
21:07:32 [rscano]
rscano has joined #wai-wcag
21:08:20 [sh1mmer]
action: Jason and John write up a proposal for how to solve this, without causing problem for preprocessing specifally for user needs
21:09:27 [sh1mmer]
action: remove success criteria level 2 item 1 or guideline 2.4
21:10:09 [sh1mmer]
gregg suggests that if people have problems with the iformative that editors can just fix it
21:11:05 [sh1mmer]
21:12:03 [sh1mmer]
21:13:07 [bcaldwell]
ack John
21:13:09 [bcaldwell]
ack Jason
21:13:28 [bcaldwell]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike
21:13:28 [Zakim]
+Mike; got it
21:13:34 [sh1mmer]
john objects, suggests the be collected for calls
21:13:37 [bcaldwell]
ack Microsoft
21:13:46 [bcaldwell]
ack [Microsoft]
21:13:57 [sh1mmer]
tom suggests that they get sent to the lists with corrections and people havea week to object
21:14:17 [sh1mmer]
resolve informative items in calls
21:14:43 [sh1mmer]
not resolve..
21:14:43 [MattSEA]
q+ wendy
21:14:54 [sh1mmer]
ack sailesh
21:14:55 [MattSEA]
ack sail
21:15:17 [bcaldwell]
ack Sailesh
21:15:20 [sh1mmer]
sailesh suggests remove the informative from the document
21:15:23 [sh1mmer]
21:15:25 [sh1mmer]
ack wendy
21:15:58 [sh1mmer]
wendy suggests that sailesh's proposal is too big to cover
21:16:46 [sh1mmer]
wendy says that we shouldn't put informative on the agenda unless they are unresolvable on the list
21:17:54 [sh1mmer]
ack andi
21:17:57 [bcaldwell]
ack Andi
21:18:15 [sh1mmer]
andi thinks that guidelines are so abstract they are needed for understanding
21:18:27 [bcaldwell]
21:18:45 [sh1mmer]
the informative is a necessary part of facilitating the use of hte guidelines
21:19:15 [sh1mmer]
21:19:36 [sh1mmer]
failed motion to move the informative to a seperate document
21:19:38 [sh1mmer]
21:19:40 [sh1mmer]
q- david
21:19:41 [bcaldwell]
21:19:51 [bcaldwell]
ack David
21:19:52 [Yvette_Hoitink]
I agree with Andy
21:20:41 [sh1mmer]
a) issues around informative information, editors try to create a solution with the person raising the solution
21:20:47 [sh1mmer]
b) post issue and suggests to list
21:21:00 [sh1mmer]
c) objections and comments noted
21:21:20 [sh1mmer]
d) suggestion can be addressed
21:21:36 [sh1mmer]
e) if suggestions cannnot be address it goes to a call other wise is resolved
21:21:38 [sh1mmer]
21:22:09 [sh1mmer]
time limit is 2 weeks
21:22:25 [sh1mmer]
ONLY for informative
21:22:40 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "handle normative likewise, but then put on agenda"
21:22:46 [sh1mmer]
21:22:53 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette_Hoitink
21:22:53 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "handle normative likewise, but then put on agenda"
21:24:29 [sh1mmer]
Editors cannot handle such a large workload
21:24:40 [sh1mmer]
Calls help to distribute among people to work
21:24:48 [sh1mmer]
Issue 707
21:24:53 [sh1mmer]
21:24:58 [sh1mmer]
4. example 3 doesn't make a recommendation - seems like a UA problem (Issue
21:24:59 [sh1mmer]
21:25:04 [sh1mmer]
this is informative
21:25:59 [sh1mmer]
Issue 776
21:26:01 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "no examples for contracted words causing problems"
21:26:14 [sh1mmer]
Another informative
21:26:32 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette_Hoitink
21:26:32 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "no examples for contracted words causing problems"
21:31:45 [sh1mmer]
everything in the appendix is not normative except the glossary
21:34:07 [Zakim]
21:34:08 [Zakim]
21:34:08 [Zakim]
21:34:09 [Zakim]
21:34:09 [bengtf]
21:34:10 [Zakim]
21:34:10 [Zakim]
21:34:11 [Zakim]
21:34:12 [Zakim]
21:34:13 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, bye
21:34:14 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were Michael_Cooper, John_Slatin, Sailesh_Panchang, Bengt_Farre, David_MacDonald, Wendy, JasonWhite, Gregg_and_Ben, Andi_Snow_Weaver,
21:34:17 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
21:34:19 [Zakim]
... +1.315.347.aaaa, Tom_Croucher, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Avi, Yvette_Hoitink, Mike
21:34:22 [sh1mmer]
zakim, RRSAgent bye
21:34:27 [sh1mmer]
RRSAgent, bye
21:34:27 [RRSAgent]
I see 2 open action items:
21:34:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Jason and John write up a proposal for how to solve this, without causing problem for preprocessing specifally for user needs [1]
21:34:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:34:27 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: remove success criteria level 2 item 1 or guideline 2.4 [2]
21:34:27 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
21:34:29 [Yvette_Hoitink]
Gregg, got a minute?