IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-26
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 13:56:19 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 13:56:26 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, make logs world-visible
- 13:59:21 [ChrisR]
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- 13:59:55 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
- 14:00:02 [Zakim]
- +Michael_Cooper
- 14:00:13 [Zakim]
- +Chris_Ridpath
- 14:01:29 [Zakim]
- +Don_Evans
- 14:01:42 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 14:02:04 [Zakim]
- +??P11
- 14:02:11 [donaldfevans]
- donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:17 [sh1m]
- Zakim, ?P11 is Tom
- 14:02:17 [Zakim]
- sorry, sh1m, I do not recognize a party named '?P11'
- 14:02:20 [sh1m]
- Zakim, ??P11 is Tom
- 14:02:20 [Zakim]
- +Tom; got it
- 14:02:25 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 14:02:26 [sh1m]
- Zakim, I am Tom
- 14:02:26 [Zakim]
- ok, sh1m, I now associate you with Tom
- 14:02:40 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 14:02:49 [bcaldwell]
- zakim ??P16 is Ben
- 14:03:00 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, ??P16 is Ben
- 14:03:01 [Zakim]
- +Ben; got it
- 14:03:10 [Zakim]
- +DaveB
- 14:04:27 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who is here?
- 14:04:27 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Don_Evans, Tom, Ben, DaveB
- 14:04:28 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see bcaldwell, donaldfevans, ChrisR, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelC, sh1m
- 14:04:41 [sh1m]
- Zakim, DaveB might be Chris_Ridpath
- 14:04:46 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'DaveB might be Chris_Ridpath', sh1m
- 14:04:54 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, DaveB is ChrisR
- 14:04:58 [Zakim]
- +ChrisR; got it
- 14:05:36 [sh1m]
- Zakim, mute me
- 14:05:36 [Zakim]
- Tom should now be muted
- 14:06:54 [MichaelC]
- -- use cases --
- 14:06:56 [MichaelC]
- http://www.eramp.com/david/becky_use_cases.htm
- 14:08:27 [sh1m]
- yes
- 14:09:48 [MichaelC]
- http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc
- 14:14:10 [MichaelC]
- -- tables --
- 14:14:21 [MichaelC]
- we should categorically forbid layout tables
- 14:14:52 [MichaelC]
- HTML WG doesn't acknowledge their existence
- 14:15:38 [MichaelC]
- creating techniques for them validates them
- 14:17:10 [MichaelC]
- do they create real problems?
- 14:17:27 [MichaelC]
- some - linearization, summary "this is a layout table"
- 14:17:41 [MichaelC]
- even nested layout tables can linearize ok
- 14:18:55 [MichaelC]
- should recommend use of css because works better for older AT
- 14:19:07 [MichaelC]
- though it breaks older graphical browsers
- 14:19:14 [MichaelC]
- yet graphical browsers are free while AT isn't
- 14:22:22 [MichaelC]
- authoring tools don't make it easy to create good CSS layouts though
- 14:23:48 [MichaelC]
- we need to be setting a higher bar and pushing people into new technology
- 14:24:07 [MichaelC]
- but is it realistic to expect the mainstream to be able to do this?
- 14:24:16 [MichaelC]
- some people are pushing and tools are starting to catch up
- 14:26:39 [MichaelC]
- remember techniques can be updated as technology changes
- 14:26:49 [MichaelC]
- mark layout table techniques as deprecated
- 14:29:55 [MichaelC]
- how much do we want to teach css layout in our techniques vs point to other resources?
- 14:30:03 [MichaelC]
- do we even know for sure CSS better than layout tables?
- 14:30:07 [MichaelC]
- only where proper structure exists
- 14:30:30 [MichaelC]
- in that case it is much better
- 14:30:37 [MichaelC]
- e.g.., lists for menus
- 14:34:25 [MichaelC]
- what if we have a technique that says use css? and another that says if you have to use layout tables, make them accessible
- 14:34:44 [MichaelC]
- if people follow guidelines for use of layout tables, is it less accessible than if they used css?
- 14:35:05 [MichaelC]
- sometimes, with older technology, or in the lists for menus example
- 14:35:17 [MichaelC]
- (though line between accessible and usable by PWD)
- 14:38:46 [MichaelC]
- how much usability should we be taking on?
- 14:39:30 [MichaelC]
- if it's usability specific to PWD we should (a usability differential from people without disabilities)
- 14:43:33 [MichaelC]
- consider concept of proportionally greater impact of one techniques vs another on PWD
- 14:44:07 [MichaelC]
- in future, as CSS support improves the pain of using layout tables vs. CSS may be proportionately greater than it is now
- 14:44:38 [MichaelC]
- but now it already is that way for some usage
- 14:45:11 [MichaelC]
- we need to just determine what guidelines our table techniques are going to relate to
- 14:45:17 [MichaelC]
- as well as the priority level
- 14:45:45 [MichaelC]
- currently there are three levels of conformance
- 14:46:25 [bcaldwell]
- latest on definition of levels: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0406.html
- 14:49:25 [MichaelC]
- Guideline 4.1 use tech to spec
- 14:49:33 [MichaelC]
- level 1 is with exceptions for compatibility
- 14:49:37 [MichaelC]
- level 3 is strict
- 14:50:00 [MichaelC]
- maybe level 3 should go to level 2, though it's bounced around a bit
- 14:54:07 [MichaelC]
- guideline requires documentation of spec violations you undertake
- 14:54:31 [MichaelC]
- question is whether layout tables are a violation of spec such that you need to document
- 14:55:09 [MichaelC]
- spec unclear because HTML WG doens't acknowedge layout tables, so doesn't even put a comment in the spec saying they are not permitted by the spec
- 14:57:25 [MichaelC]
- we need to take our techniques, come up with our idea of priorities, and see of this match the priorities in the guidelines with the success criteria to which we match
- 14:58:42 [MichaelC]
- action: Chris - do a draft mapping of techniques to guideline and levels
- 15:01:36 [MichaelC]
- action: Michael - propose techniques for layout tables based on this discussion
- 15:06:12 [MichaelC]
- -- abbreviation & acronym --
- 15:06:14 [MichaelC]
- http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0410.html
- 15:07:01 [MichaelC]
- issue in UAAG with "conditional content" - extra stuff like "title", how should it be handled
- 15:07:21 [MichaelC]
- in JAWS title can replace the original content with the conditional content
- 15:07:38 [MichaelC]
- this seems to be permitted by UAAG
- 15:07:53 [MichaelC]
- that creates issues for us around how we're going to recommend use of that
- 15:08:19 [bcaldwell]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-UAAG10-20021217/guidelines#tech-conditional-conte
- 15:08:19 [bcaldwell]
- nt
- 15:08:35 [bcaldwell]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2002/REC-UAAG10-20021217/guidelines#tech-conditional-content
- 15:10:16 [MichaelC]
- this might even be interpreted to mean that summary of data table could be rendered _in place of_ the table itself
- 15:10:36 [MichaelC]
- would like to propose removing option 1a (at above URL)
- 15:13:01 [MichaelC]
- action: Ben - raise issue of expected user agent handling of conditional content to UA WG, perhaps an erratum would be nice
- 15:14:45 [MichaelC]
- issue of marking abbr/acronym once or on each occurrence
- 15:15:01 [MichaelC]
- this is spoken to in guideline level at 3.1: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/WD-WCAG20-20040311/#meaning
- 15:20:22 [MichaelC]
- marking up each instance burdensome for some, though maybe shouldn't be considered that
- 15:20:51 [MichaelC]
- big question about what is even subject to this guideline
- 15:21:49 [MichaelC]
- UA should allow user to query element for the expansion
- 15:22:27 [MichaelC]
- (UAAG case 3a)
- 15:24:50 [MichaelC]
- need to go back to larger group with question: what does it mean to fulfill 3.1 level 1?
- 15:25:26 [MichaelC]
- action: Ben - raise question to larger group "what does it mean to fulfill 3.1 level 1?"
- 15:27:57 [donaldfevans]
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- 15:30:16 [ChrisR]
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- 15:32:39 [Zakim]
- -ChrisR
- 15:33:01 [Zakim]
- -Don_Evans
- 15:33:05 [Zakim]
- -Tom
- 15:33:09 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 15:33:13 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 15:33:17 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Tom, Ben, ChrisR
- 15:33:41 [MichaelC]
- zakim, bye
- 15:33:41 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 15:33:44 [MichaelC]
- rrsagent, bye
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- I see 4 open action items:
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Chris - do a draft mapping of techniques to guideline and levels [1]
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T14-58-42
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Michael - propose techniques for layout tables based on this discussion [2]
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T15-01-36
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben - raise issue of expected user agent handling of conditional content to UA WG, perhaps an erratum would be nice [3]
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T15-13-01
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Ben - raise question to larger group "what does it mean to fulfill 3.1 level 1?" [4]
- 15:33:44 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/26-wai-wcag-irc#T15-25-26