IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-20

Timestamps are in UTC.

19:50:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
19:52:30 [rscano]
a song as demo :)
19:52:34 [rscano]
for a training :)
19:52:50 [rscano]
I wanna make the song captioning in italian and english
19:53:00 [rscano]
for show that it is useful not only for deaf people
19:53:02 [rscano]
19:53:17 [wendy]
19:53:51 [wendy]
wendy has changed the topic to: "+1 617.761.6200 passcode 9224"
19:53:57 [rscano]
i've discovered also that the best solution for deaf people with low vision is Windows Media + SAMI instead of QuickTime with SMIL 1.0
19:54:00 [rellero]
rellero has joined #wai-wcag
19:54:05 [rscano]
hi rellero
19:54:08 [rellero]
19:54:15 [wendy]
why is WM+sami better for low vision?
19:54:52 [rscano]
because it let to put the captioned text in a DIV
19:55:04 [wendy]
you can't do that w/smil?
19:55:06 [rscano]
and you can put the text with relative dimensions
19:55:14 [rscano]
Windows Media don't support well SMIL :)
19:55:39 [rscano]
and Real / QT don't let to resize fonts during execution as an object in a page
19:55:40 [wendy]
roberto - how about working on smil techniques for wcag 2.0?
19:55:50 [wendy]
19:55:52 [rscano]
ok... but not only me :)
19:56:06 [wendy]
sounds like part of the issue is ensuring the media players implement UAAG
19:56:14 [rscano]
19:56:22 [rscano]
it's a topic that I've put in my book
19:56:35 [wendy]
it sounds like it is not the smil dtd, but the user agent implementation.
19:56:42 [rscano]
19:56:48 [rscano]
I will tell to Ian
19:56:51 [rscano]
19:56:55 [wendy]
whew. i was going to be concerned if smil had issues.
19:57:05 [wendy]
actually, tell matt may. he's the staff contact of UAWG.
19:57:08 [rscano]
but I check with SMIL ;-)
19:57:09 [rscano]
ah ok
19:57:25 [wendy]
if there are issues with SMIL, those should also go to Matt as he is also the staff contact for PFWG. :)
19:57:27 [Yvette]
Yvette has joined #wai-wcag
19:57:31 [wendy]
hello yvette
19:57:31 [Yvette]
hi everyone
19:57:34 [rellero]
19:57:49 [rscano]
hi dutch girl :)
19:58:00 [Yvette]
Isn't it a holiday in the US today? It is here...
19:58:09 [Yvette]
Ascension day
19:58:48 [wendy]
don't think it's a holiday. we're all happily working at WWW2004 in NYC.
19:59:01 [sh1mmer]
sh1mmer has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:04 [wendy]
hey tom
19:59:05 [Yvette]
Poor guys :-)
19:59:07 [Yvette]
Hi Tom
19:59:08 [rscano]
yep... i cannot be in there :( there was also AC Meeting :(
19:59:17 [wendy]
yes, we missed you.
19:59:18 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has joined #wai-wcag
19:59:25 [rcastaldo]
Hi all :-)
19:59:26 [Yvette]
Hi Roberto#3
19:59:29 [rellero]
19:59:59 [Yvette]
In the Netherlands everyone has off today (even stores are closed) and most people have to take tomorrow off as well
20:00:07 [Yvette]
Forced by their employers
20:00:07 [rscano]
Wendy I will check about SMIL and resize of the font for captioning
20:00:10 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, this is WAI_WCAG
20:00:10 [Zakim]
ok, sh1mmer; that matches WAI_WCAG()4:00PM
20:00:21 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, who's on the phone?
20:00:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Tom_Croucher
20:00:31 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, I am Tom_Croucher
20:00:31 [Zakim]
ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
20:00:35 [rscano]
hi Tom
20:00:42 [sh1mmer]
hi guys :)
20:00:44 [Zakim]
20:00:57 [Zakim]
20:01:05 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, ??P3 is David
20:01:05 [Zakim]
+David; got it
20:01:06 [Zakim]
20:01:13 [rscano]
zakim, ??P2 is Roberto_Scano
20:01:13 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano; got it
20:01:15 [Yvette]
zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:15 [Zakim]
ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink
20:01:43 [Zakim]
+ +1.732.333.aaaa
20:01:51 [wendy]
zakim, +1.732.333.aaaa is wendy
20:01:52 [rscano]
zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
20:01:52 [Zakim]
+wendy; got it
20:01:53 [Zakim]
ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
20:02:06 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, aaaa is Wendy
20:02:06 [Zakim]
sorry, sh1mmer, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
20:02:07 [Zakim]
20:02:09 [Zakim]
20:02:11 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, 333.aaaa is Wendy
20:02:11 [Zakim]
sorry, sh1mmer, I do not recognize a party named '333.aaaa'
20:02:12 [Zakim]
20:02:17 [Zakim]
20:02:18 [Zakim]
20:02:20 [rscano]
wendy multitasking version :)
20:02:21 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, +1.32.333.aaaa is Wendy
20:02:21 [Zakim]
sorry, sh1mmer, I do not recognize a party named '+1.32.333.aaaa'
20:02:21 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:22 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Tom_Croucher, David, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Scano, wendy, ??P5, Avi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, ??P7
20:02:24 [Zakim]
20:02:27 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, +1.732.333.aaaa is Wendy
20:02:27 [Zakim]
sorry, sh1mmer, I do not recognize a party named '+1.732.333.aaaa'
20:02:34 [wendy]
zakim, [Microsoft] is Mike_Barta
20:02:34 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta; got it
20:02:37 [rscano]
zakim, ??P7 is Roberto_Castaldo
20:02:37 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Castaldo; got it
20:02:41 [bengt]
bengt has joined #wai-wcag
20:02:42 [Zakim]
20:02:43 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:02:43 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Tom_Croucher, David, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Scano, wendy, ??P5, Avi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Roberto_Castaldo, JasonWhite, ??P12
20:02:45 [rellero]
Zakim, ??P12 is Roberto_Ellero
20:02:45 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Ellero; got it
20:02:52 [rellero]
zakim, mute me
20:02:52 [Zakim]
sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
20:02:53 [Zakim]
20:02:58 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, ??P12 is Jason
20:02:58 [Zakim]
I already had ??P12 as Roberto_Ellero, Yvette_Hoitink
20:03:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:03:06 [rellero]
zakim, mute Roberto_Ellero
20:03:06 [Zakim]
Roberto_Ellero should now be muted
20:03:08 [wendy]
zakim, [IBM] is Andi_Snow-Weaver
20:03:08 [Zakim]
+Andi_Snow-Weaver; got it
20:03:09 [Zakim]
20:03:26 [Becky]
Becky has joined #wai-wcag
20:03:29 [rscano]
20:03:34 [Zakim]
20:03:35 [Zakim]
20:03:38 [bengt]
zakim, ??P13 is Bengt_Farre
20:03:38 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
20:03:39 [sh1mmer]
aparently everyone loved my action item :P
20:03:41 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:03:41 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Tom_Croucher (muted), David, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Scano, wendy, ??P5, Avi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Roberto_Castaldo, JasonWhite,
20:03:44 [Zakim]
... Roberto_Ellero (muted), Andi_Snow-Weaver, Bengt_Farre
20:03:55 [bengt]
zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
20:03:55 [Zakim]
ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
20:04:07 [Zakim]
20:04:07 [bengt]
zakim, mute me
20:04:08 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
20:04:28 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
20:04:53 [wendy]
zakim, ??P5 is Gregg
20:04:53 [Zakim]
+Gregg; got it
20:04:58 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
20:04:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Mike_Barta, Tom_Croucher (muted), David, Yvette_Hoitink, Roberto_Scano, wendy, Gregg, Avi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, Roberto_Castaldo, JasonWhite,
20:05:01 [Zakim]
... Roberto_Ellero (muted), Andi_Snow-Weaver, Bengt_Farre (muted), Becky_Gibson
20:05:04 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:05:15 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Castaldo (66%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (18%), John_Slatin (28%)
20:05:26 [Zakim]
20:05:30 [rscano]
zakim, mute Roberto_Castaldo
20:05:30 [Zakim]
Roberto_Castaldo should now be muted
20:05:32 [Andi]
Andi has joined #wai-wcag
20:05:33 [rcastaldo]
I've just muted
20:05:33 [wendy]
zakim, ??P15 is Kerstin
20:05:33 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
20:05:34 [rscano]
20:05:46 [wendy]
zakim, who's muted?
20:05:46 [Zakim]
I see Mike_Barta, Tom_Croucher, Gregg, Roberto_Castaldo, Roberto_Ellero, Bengt_Farre muted
20:05:56 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
20:05:56 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:06:00 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute me
20:06:00 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:06:03 [wendy]
zakim, unmute Gregg
20:06:03 [Zakim]
Gregg should no longer be muted
20:06:07 [bengt]
ellero muted not castaldo
20:06:19 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
20:06:23 [rcastaldo]
I've muted with 61#
20:06:29 [rscano]
i've muted u :P
20:06:31 [bengt]
zakim, who is making noise ?
20:06:31 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, mute Roberto_castaldo
20:06:31 [Zakim]
Roberto_Castaldo was already muted, sh1mmer
20:06:33 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Mike_Barta (6%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (41%), Avi (4%), JasonWhite (21%)
20:06:43 [Zakim]
bengt, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Scano (6%), David (25%), Yvette_Hoitink (24%), Gregg (9%), wendy (10%), Loretta_Guarino_Reid (49%)
20:07:10 [rscano]
it's a buzz? :)
20:07:53 [wendy]
20:08:20 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
20:08:20 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:08:49 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, unmute me
20:08:49 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
20:09:10 [wendy]
andi's comment:
20:09:23 [wendy]
mailing list wtould not meet
20:09:34 [sh1mmer]
20:09:38 [wendy]
jason replied:
20:09:41 [wendy]
don't think it's a problem
20:09:43 [wendy]
ack tom
20:09:43 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:09:59 [GVAN]
20:10:07 [GVAN]
20:10:11 [wendy]
agree with jason. could note lists with dashes and that would not be appropriate.
20:10:22 [wendy]
it is not a great cost to authors (wrt freedom of expression)
20:10:40 [wendy]
only question, legacy question. that's a scoping issue (as ben discussed in his post)
20:10:47 [wendy]
ack gvan
20:10:54 [sh1mmer]
20:11:08 [wendy]
we talked about scoping. w/email archives, easy to say they don't conform w/out talking about rest of site.
20:11:18 [wendy]
don't expect a lot of email markup in the archives.
20:11:24 [wendy]
what is programmatically determined mean?
20:11:30 [wendy]
short term: need to mark things up
20:11:55 [MattNYC]
MattNYC has joined #wai-wcag
20:11:55 [wendy]
long term: if a simple algorithm and tools that would add simple markup, then could be programmatically determined.
20:12:07 [wendy]
concern w/"e.g. data list" if that implies more than we need to.
20:12:15 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:12:15 [wendy]
ack tom
20:12:36 [wendy]
tools can implly things that are not correct.
20:12:41 [wendy]
20:13:03 [GVAN]
20:13:09 [wendy]
perhaps authors do things consistently, but infer meaning can produce erroneous results.
20:13:23 [wendy]
can not take flat text and programmatically determine it. won't be correct 100% of the time.
20:13:39 [wendy]
if use lists as lists, it will be interpreted correctly 100% of the time.
20:13:40 [wendy]
ack john
20:13:52 [wendy]
question of relationship between guidelines and techniques and checklists.
20:14:15 [wendy]
the guideline is right as it is. the tech-specific could say, "for now, markup has to be there."
20:14:27 [wendy]
if later on there are tools, then we can revise the checklists (whether they are normative or not)
20:14:56 [wendy]
q+ to say, "don't expect world to go back to flat text. expect mailing lists would include markup as tools get better, not other way around."
20:15:00 [wendy]
ack jason
20:15:02 [sh1mmer]
20:15:23 [wendy]
other things that violate 1.1, character set identification...
20:15:45 [wendy]
text files are going to fail in a number of places. probably a matter of scoping them out so they cover more than one guideline.
20:15:49 [wendy]
scoping out is way i would do it.
20:16:09 [wendy]
suspect that if go through verion 1.0, the same examples would fail there, too. nothing specific to 2.0 document.
20:16:10 [wendy]
ack gvan
20:16:26 [wendy]
we often point out "bold if not marked up could be missed" however, that's true of all users.
20:16:42 [wendy]
if bold means strong in one place and something else someplace else how does person w/sight know the difference.
20:16:51 [wendy]
don't want to stray too far from accessibility
20:16:54 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:16:54 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say, "don't expect world to go back to flat text. expect mailing lists would include markup as tools get better, not other way around."
20:17:30 [rscano]
agree with Wendy
20:17:54 [rscano]
think also about forums...
20:18:19 [bengt]
they could do that add markup afterwards
20:18:32 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:18:50 [wendy]
agree that that problem can cancel itself out.
20:19:01 [GVAN]
20:19:30 [wendy]
agree w/john wrt techniques/checklists
20:19:41 [wendy]
ack resolution
20:20:06 [wendy]
concensus that the 1st success criteria should be:
20:20:17 [wendy]
20:20:19 [sh1mmer]
ack tom
20:20:24 [wendy]
we've defined structures, have we defined relationships?
20:20:33 [wendy]
kidn of defined in the sturcture defn
20:20:42 [wendy]
perhaps say structures of the content...
20:20:50 [wendy]
hierarchy is a relationship
20:20:57 [wendy]
relationships are either hierarchical or non-hierarchical
20:21:28 [wendy]
defn of structure that john sent "aggregate of elements and relationships that make up something"
20:21:53 [wendy]
structure is the set of elements and relationships that make up a web document
20:22:05 [sh1mmer]
20:22:09 [wendy]
"elements" is loaded w/many words
20:22:15 [wendy]
20:22:30 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:23:01 [wendy]
checkpoints themselves if properly supported by defns are ok. this is extension of [couldn't understand]
20:23:44 [wendy]
structures and relationships can be derived programmatically
20:23:46 [sh1mmer]
bug 506
20:23:57 [wendy]
most people don't understand what data model means
20:24:07 [wendy]
it's an example of a technique not deriving it programmatically
20:24:14 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:24:20 [wendy]
concern that it seems html-specific.
20:24:26 [wendy]
do data models suffice?
20:24:49 [wendy]
"derived through standard programmatic means"
20:25:04 [wendy]
ack john
20:25:14 [wendy]
yes, end at "programmatically"
20:25:19 [sh1mmer]
q+ to say "agree with greg about ending"
20:25:24 [wendy]
there's a problem with saying "structures and relaetionships *of* the content"
20:25:35 [wendy]
"within" or "of and within"
20:26:10 [wendy]
"structs and relationships within the content..."
20:26:20 [wendy]
"within" sounds like in the single page and not between pages.
20:26:26 [wendy]
content is not a single page.
20:26:38 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette_Hoitink
20:26:57 [wendy]
"can be derived programattically" sounds like putting burden on user and not author.
20:27:25 [wendy]
if you identify the structures and relationships, it can be derived programmatically. need to phrase for author not user.
20:28:20 [wendy]
at the moment, "can dervie programmatically". isntead, "structs and rel are marke dup so can be derived prog..."
20:28:57 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
20:28:58 [Zakim]
Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say "agree with greg about ending"
20:29:56 [wendy]
q+ to say, "call for vote? ask if people can live with and move on? have 6 other items on the agenda"
20:30:16 [GVAN]
20:30:22 [wendy]
ack john
20:30:40 [wendy]
problem is want to ensure success criteria is that it is the author's responsibility.
20:31:10 [wendy]
put burden of identifying on the author. one solution might be, "struture and relationships in content are identified in way that can be dervied programmatically"
20:31:31 [wendy]
structures and relationships within the content are identified in such a way that they can be derived programmatically"
20:31:51 [wendy]
"standard programmatic way'
20:32:31 [rscano]
"structures and relationship within the content are identified and can be derived programmatically" ?
20:32:48 [Yvette_Hoitink]
"structures and relationship within the content are identified so that they can be derived programmatically"
20:32:55 [sh1mmer]
q+ to say "how can we define testibility of standard"
20:32:56 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:33:02 [wendy]
20:33:17 [wendy]
ack jason
20:33:25 [wendy]
concern about shift of burden to the author.
20:33:42 [wendy]
important that if it can be derived programmatically, if downstream software can derive it, that should satisfy it.
20:34:01 [wendy]
if the text is worded so that it creates more of a requirement, even if it can be derived w/out that.
20:34:04 [wendy]
then requiring too much.
20:34:23 [wendy]
q+ to ask, "real-world example of jason't concern?"
20:35:27 [wendy]
ack gvan
20:35:29 [sh1mmer]
ack GVAN
20:37:45 [wendy]
20:38:02 [wendy]
wac notes concern that we're wordsmithing and would like to send to editors to work out details and put something in next draft.
20:38:16 [wendy]
if we're not getting new issues and just close to wording, let's move on in the agenda.
20:38:41 [wendy]
40 minutes into the call. 7 more items on agenda
20:38:42 [wendy]
ack david
20:39:12 [wendy]
"structures of the content and relationships between those structrues can be derived programmatically"
20:39:27 [wendy]
not relationship between structure
20:39:35 [wendy]
is relationships between more than structures
20:39:37 [sh1mmer]
ack tom
20:39:38 [Zakim]
Tom_Croucher, you wanted to say "how can we define testibility of standard"
20:40:06 [wendy]
like the idea of "standard programmatically determinable" but not sure how define testibly
20:40:19 [wendy]
phrase in some way that ensures that things are programmatically determinable in a testable way.
20:40:21 [GVAN]
20:40:25 [GVAN]
20:40:35 [Yvette_Hoitink]
20:40:44 [wendy]
reliable is part of the definition of testable!
20:40:50 [sh1mmer]
ack John
20:41:20 [sh1mmer]
not part of the definition of programatically determined
20:41:42 [wendy]
there are 3 main variants on the table. all are ok. would prefer *not* standard programmatic, think for checklists.
20:41:53 [wendy]
ackg van
20:41:57 [wendy]
ack gvan
20:42:16 [wendy]
structs and rels of the content can be derived programmatically.
20:42:41 [wendy]
don't want to replace "of" with "within" because "of" is more broadly applicable.
20:42:46 [wendy]
"relationships of content"
20:43:01 [sh1mmer]
20:45:08 [sh1mmer]
20:45:15 [sh1mmer]
20:45:34 [wendy]
ack jason
20:45:34 [sh1mmer]
ack Jason
20:45:37 [wendy]
ack andi
20:46:20 [wendy]
simple text document should be able to conform at level 1
20:46:57 [wendy]
have raised questions, would like to find some good wording and summarize the questions and debate on the list.
20:47:01 [wendy]
ack tom
20:47:10 [wendy]
ack john
20:47:18 [GVAN]
20:47:35 [wendy]
simple text doc, headings, ps, lists is that shows up in a way that has no navigation?
20:47:38 [wendy]
20:47:52 [wendy]
if it's just short text, then can live w/it.
20:48:07 [wendy]
as soon as navigation, especially if before, want a way to jump to it.
20:48:26 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
20:48:26 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
20:48:31 [wendy]
[wac notes that this is like the mailing list archive. navigation controls *are* html evne if body of mail is plain text]
20:48:49 [wendy]
wcag 1.0 does not require headings at level 1
20:49:06 [Yvette_Hoitink]
yes it's prior 2
20:49:34 [wendy]
3.5 Use header elements to convey document structure and use them according to specification. [Priority 2]
20:49:41 [wendy]
3.6 Mark up lists and list items properly. [Priority 2]
20:49:54 [Yvette_Hoitink]
3.1 When an appropriate markup language exists, use markup rather than images to convey information. [Priority 2]
20:50:34 [wendy]
3.1 has been contentious. especially with the low vision community.
20:50:47 [wendy]
but, part of that are broken user agents that don't let you increase font size of text equivs
20:51:19 [wendy]
(which is changing)
20:51:29 [wendy]
in checklist, "in this technology, this is what you do..."
20:51:39 [sh1mmer]
ack tom
20:52:21 [rscano]
IE let to resize pixel
20:52:27 [wendy]
stucts and relationships of/within the content can be derived programmatically
20:52:38 [wendy]
s/ of/within / within
20:52:55 [wendy]
note: the concept of reliability and standardness should be incorporated into defn of programmatically
20:53:01 [rcastaldo]
20:53:33 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say
20:53:48 [wendy]
doc. title at top. 8 paragraphs. some subtitles. that's it. does it have to be marked up to be accessible?
20:54:14 [wendy]
how draw a line between simple and complex documents?
20:54:21 [wendy]
if complex, document becomes indecipherable.
20:54:30 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zaki, unmute me
20:54:35 [wendy]
ack jason
20:54:50 [sh1mmer]
ack gvan
20:54:50 [wendy]
ack yvette
20:54:52 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say
20:54:54 [wendy]
q+ gvan
20:55:01 [wendy]
other example: interactive web site
20:55:06 [wendy]
people can post comments
20:55:12 [wendy]
can ask people filling in comments w/structure
20:55:17 [wendy]
it would require html knowledge
20:55:46 [wendy]
q+ to say, "think about auth tools as the new word processor."
20:56:33 [wendy]
not a plain text document. people can type reactions to article. they are not able to mark up their responses.
20:56:46 [wendy]
ack wendy
20:56:46 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say, "think about auth tools as the new word processor."
20:58:28 [sh1mmer]
20:58:56 [Becky]
20:59:40 [wendy]
move this out of level 1? to level 2?
20:59:47 [wendy]
ack jason
20:59:56 [wendy]
many plain text documents are not accessible
21:00:32 [rscano]
yep... no explanation for acronyms, abbr, change of language...
21:00:46 [wendy]
then the exception should go into scoping
21:00:50 [wendy]
should not be exception in the guideline
21:00:52 [Yvette_Hoitink]
even main language (prio 1)
21:01:15 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "plain text files would fail different level 1 already"
21:01:17 [wendy]
simple algorithm would allow to determine headers, thus plain documents coiuld comply
21:01:44 [wendy]
what is sufficient?
21:02:53 [wendy]
scoping seems to be the only way to move forward.
21:02:54 [Andi]
not "changes in language". That has been moved to Level 2
21:02:54 [Yvette_Hoitink]
21:03:32 [Yvette_Hoitink]
but main language, acronyms, abbreviations, are at level 1
21:03:51 [rscano]
21:03:52 [rcastaldo]
ANd they should stay there, I think
21:04:05 [Yvette_Hoitink]
I agree
21:04:12 [wendy]
ack tom
21:04:12 [sh1mmer]
ack tom
21:04:28 [GVAN]
ack gvan
21:05:03 [wendy]
can not derive structures generically.
21:05:08 [wendy]
exception is a disservice.
21:06:04 [wendy]
not happy about plain text being excluded
21:06:19 [wendy]
but, plain text would conform iff tools have no trouble
21:06:21 [Yvette_Hoitink]
q+ to say "the whole reason for HTML was to markup text, plain text is yesterdays technology"
21:07:10 [wendy]
wac wants to remind people of the milestones in our proposed charter:
21:07:41 [wendy]
ack becky
21:07:53 [wendy]
any web app that lets people input web content.
21:08:09 [wendy]
there is nothing that forces the user to use markup
21:08:50 [sh1mmer]
tom said: you can repair plain text if you made it in a consistent way
21:08:59 [rscano]
"any web app that generate web content" :)
21:09:16 [wendy]
could say, "all content accessible but can't guarantee..."
21:09:23 [sh1mmer]
you cannot programmatically derive plain text across multiple ways plain texts has been formats to imply content
21:09:39 [bengt]
some lists har formatting rules builtin to their input mechanisms
21:09:48 [wendy]
scoping could be savior, but give us another burden.
21:09:56 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:09:56 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "the whole reason for HTML was to markup text, plain text is yesterdays technology"
21:09:58 [sh1mmer]
hence structure in plain text cannot be programmatically determined it can only repaired to markup that can
21:10:12 [wendy]
html was invented to deal with plain text
21:10:17 [wendy]
see decrease in use of
21:10:27 [wendy]
people will use html instead of text. that benefit accessibility.
21:10:29 [rcastaldo]
21:10:33 [wendy]
21:10:39 [sh1mmer]
21:10:39 [rscano]
21:10:44 [Yvette_Hoitink]
21:11:16 [wendy]
proposal for closure: stucts and relationships of/within the content can be derived programmatically
21:11:16 [wendy]
[16:52] <wendy> s/ of/within / within
21:11:16 [wendy]
[16:52] <wendy> note: the concept of reliability and standardness should be incorporated into defn of programmatically
21:11:23 [wendy]
remain level 1
21:11:40 [wendy]
scoping to handle places where not applicable
21:12:00 [wendy]
any objections?
21:12:04 [rscano]
nope :)
21:12:05 [wendy]
21:12:07 [wendy]
21:14:30 [wendy]
the summary were html and text specific. assuming we are talking about document rendered on the screen.
21:15:20 [wendy]
if the browser suddenly spoke something louder, then must have been markup to tell it to do that.
21:15:26 [sh1mmer]
21:15:26 [wendy]
thus, by defn, already have markup.
21:15:34 [wendy]
thought we were talking about if that markup should be present.
21:16:09 [rscano]
yes... VoiceXML works with markup
21:16:50 [wendy]
ack mike
21:17:06 [wendy]
there are ways to provide distinctions, that are not visible to prog. access.
21:17:25 [bengt]
bengt has joined #wai-wcag
21:17:35 [wendy]
the note from before, "programmatically means in standard fashion...
21:17:49 [wendy]
could be derived programmtically abut idiosyncratic to your own page.
21:18:07 [wendy]
as long as programatically avail w/out a priori knowledge
21:18:14 [rscano]
idiosyn..what? :)
21:18:31 [wendy]
standard way of showing emphasis
21:18:36 [rscano]
thank u :)
21:18:59 [sh1mmer]
ack jason
21:19:00 [wendy]
ack john
21:19:50 [Yvette_Hoitink]
zakim, mute me
21:19:50 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:20:24 [wendy]
use good semantics. author needs to be clear what means and what intent is.
21:20:37 [wendy]
could be specific ways to make prog. identifiable that have nothing to do w/presentation.
21:21:05 [wendy]
whatever the viz presentation is, is available elsewhere.
21:21:11 [wendy]
need semantics that may not be in viz presentation.
21:21:39 [wendy]
adding semantic marku that no sighted user would get
21:21:47 [wendy]
that should be under "understanding"
21:22:02 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
21:22:02 [wendy]
ack tom
21:22:46 [wendy]
only way to reliably determine emphasis is by using semantic elements
21:22:48 [wendy]
21:22:56 [wendy]
anything else could be visual styling
21:23:54 [wendy]
21:24:20 [wendy]
21:24:23 [wendy]
ack john
21:24:40 [wendy]
emphasis can be programmatically derived
21:25:48 [wendy]
don't want to say "emphasis and other meaning" too broad
21:26:16 [wendy]
tom - did you read something from the archives? if so, pls put uri and text.
21:27:48 [sh1mmer]
21:27:54 [sh1mmer]
Ben's comments from here
21:27:54 [wendy]
look at semantic elements in langs, such as html, svg.
21:27:58 [wendy]
emphasis, cite, etc.
21:28:05 [sh1mmer]
Perhaps "... imply additional meaning, emphasis or distinction, such as
21:28:05 [sh1mmer]
> ..."
21:28:33 [wendy]
cite is inline, default rendering is italic
21:28:35 [Zakim]
21:28:47 [Zakim]
21:29:14 [rcastaldo]
Ooopssss... my Dialpad has died... :-|
21:29:25 [sh1mmer]
21:29:30 [rscano]
have u paid Roberto? :D
21:29:35 [sh1mmer]
Gregg didn't go. but roberto did
21:29:48 [rcastaldo]
21:30:41 [wendy]
agreement on "emphasis can be derive programmatically" (or however decided to word previous one)
21:30:55 [rscano]
see ya!
21:30:55 [Zakim]
21:30:56 [Zakim]
21:30:56 [bengt]
21:30:58 [rellero]
21:30:58 [Zakim]
21:30:59 [Zakim]
21:30:59 [Zakim]
21:31:01 [Zakim]
21:31:01 [Zakim]
21:31:02 [Zakim]
21:31:04 [Zakim]
21:31:05 [rcastaldo]
21:31:06 [Zakim]
21:31:06 [Becky]
Becky has left #wai-wcag
21:31:08 [Zakim]
21:31:10 [Zakim]
21:31:12 [Zakim]
21:31:14 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
21:31:18 [Zakim]
21:31:19 [Zakim]
21:31:20 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
21:31:21 [Zakim]
Attendees were Tom_Croucher, Yvette_Hoitink, David, Roberto_Scano, wendy, Avi, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, John_Slatin, JasonWhite, Mike_Barta, Roberto_Castaldo, Roberto_Ellero,
21:31:23 [Zakim]
... Andi_Snow-Weaver, Becky_Gibson, Bengt_Farre, Gregg, Kerstin
21:34:15 [wendy]
RRSAgent, make log world-visible
21:45:05 [rscano]
rscano has left #wai-wcag
21:46:00 [sh1mmer]
21:46:03 [sh1mmer]
bit of a marathon
21:55:00 [Andi]
Andi has left #wai-wcag
22:14:16 [Yvette_Hoitink]
RRSAgent, bye
22:14:16 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items