IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-05-19

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:04:13 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:49 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:49 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Don_Evans, [Microsoft], ??P4, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang
14:05:12 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P4 is Chris_Ridpath
14:05:12 [Zakim]
+Chris_Ridpath; got it
14:06:37 [MichaelC]
-- navigation approaches & use cases --
14:06:38 [MichaelC]
14:06:45 [MichaelC]
14:07:57 [MichaelC]
Becky took Tom's personae and tried to make real world examles
14:08:59 [MichaelC]
zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis
14:08:59 [Zakim]
+Jenae_Andershonis; got it
14:09:33 [MichaelC]
would like to get from guidelines to techniques and back
14:09:39 [MichaelC]
or from guidelines to checklists
14:10:23 [MichaelC]
may need to go from document to document to get clarity on specific questions
14:10:30 [MichaelC]
tried one to use traffic cop
14:12:25 [MichaelC]
Same question as last week: not sure on difference between tech-independent techniques and techniques repository
14:12:52 [MichaelC]
Would like to be able to go directly from checklists to techniques repository
14:13:13 [MichaelC]
Not sure in diagram from last week what entry point into repository is
14:14:28 [MichaelC]
action: Becky create a revised picture based on her use cases
14:18:32 [MichaelC]
In last of Becky's scenarios, person comes from guideline and wants to go to techniques - how do they do that?
14:18:55 [MichaelC]
relates to linking guidelines to techniques
14:20:02 [MichaelC]
Process of linking guidelines to techniques through traffic cop
14:20:36 [MichaelC]
Do we link from traffic cop to guidelines?
14:20:47 [MichaelC]
Or do we also provide links to checklists and techniques?
14:21:25 [MichaelC]
Also when do you get from non-tech specific to tech-specific
14:22:13 [MichaelC]
Do we need to link out from guidelines to everything, or just to traffic cop?
14:23:54 [MichaelC]
We need to understand where there is a 1:1 vs. a 1:many relation
14:25:04 [MichaelC]
that can determine how we present linkages
14:28:04 [MichaelC]
Also there are possibly multiple guidelines per technique, therefore many:many relations
14:28:10 [MichaelC]
but need to keep things simple
14:28:59 [MichaelC]
make a constraint that we only define one guideline per technique - strongest one - to maintain the 1:many status
14:30:48 [MichaelC]
Perhaps everything links into traffic cop, from which you can get to whichever related document you want
14:30:56 [MichaelC]
It's two hops, but it might be clearer where you're going
14:33:59 [Becky]
David's traffic cop proposal:
14:34:44 [MichaelC]
add checklists to this
14:35:06 [MichaelC]
make guideline links live
14:35:21 [MichaelC]
How do people get to test cases?
14:36:02 [MichaelC]
Add a field to traffic cop for test cases?
14:36:09 [MichaelC]
Link from techniques?
14:37:21 [MichaelC]
Need updated prototypes of all this
14:38:06 [MichaelC]
action: Michael, Jenae: create updated prototype of Guidelines link to traffic cop, and links to techniques, checklists, and test cases
14:39:14 [Zakim]
14:39:33 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P0 is David_MacDonald
14:39:33 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
14:40:37 [MichaelC]
If we have checklists, would they be in their own field or tied to the technology specific techniques?
14:46:39 [MichaelC]
action 1 = Becky, David create a revised picture based on her use cases
14:49:06 [MichaelC]
-- end-to-end --
14:49:16 [MichaelC]
14:49:23 [MichaelC]
14:55:01 [MichaelC]
were expecting additional analysis from last week but not yet completed
14:55:09 [MichaelC]
postponing this agendum
14:59:40 [MichaelC]
-- table headers, layout vs css, and summary and caption --
15:00:11 [MichaelC]
15:00:55 [MichaelC]
Summary attribute gives additional information to an AT user
15:01:06 [MichaelC]
it describes something that visually you can take in at a glance
15:01:21 [MichaelC]
non-null summary therefore important for data tables
15:02:03 [MichaelC]
Is summary in addition to or instead of TH to identify data table?
15:04:42 [MichaelC]
not specifically either
15:05:01 [MichaelC]
Most recent list discussion was that summary was optional on data tables, and null/absent on layout tables
15:06:08 [MichaelC]
Should a summary that describes the data table always be present?
15:06:30 [MichaelC]
useful for large tables, less necessary for small tables
15:06:38 [MichaelC]
how onerous is it for developers?
15:07:18 [MichaelC]
Only require summary on complex tables?
15:07:22 [MichaelC]
then we have to define that
15:07:57 [MichaelC]
...multiple rows/cols of headers, and heading for data cell is not in same row and column as the cell
15:08:22 [MichaelC]
Second part of that definition the only important part?
15:12:35 [MichaelC]
line between complexity for headers, and complexity for summary
15:13:11 [MichaelC]
CAPTION should describe what table contains, and summary should summarize the layout/organization of information
15:16:39 [MichaelC]
CAPTION is for everybody
15:16:45 [MichaelC]
summary is mainly for screen reader users
15:20:41 [MichaelC]
Imagine a "perfect" table: has a CAPTION, meaningful and brief summary, TH for all headers, and additional header markup if needed
15:20:55 [MichaelC]
Don't like to require CAPTION because of visual impact
15:21:14 [MichaelC]
CSS to hide possible, but current UA support leads to that being unavailable in screen readers also
15:23:53 [BeckyG]
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15:24:22 [MichaelC]
If UA support were working, would we be comfortable requiring CAPTION but hiding it visually if desired?
15:24:40 [MichaelC]
No - it's defined as a visual element
15:24:55 [MichaelC]
Which of these features make an actual difference to users?
15:24:57 [MichaelC]
15:25:28 [MichaelC]
TH - UA will read "headers" even if absent but presence can still help
15:29:19 [Zakim]
15:29:24 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
15:30:27 [MichaelC]
Do we unanimously agree that TH should always be required?
15:30:44 [MichaelC]
can live with it, but don't like to require something that doesn't make a measurable impact for users
15:30:54 [MichaelC]
Do we unanimously agree that summary should always be required?
15:31:13 [MichaelC]
no, should only be required for complex tables - but we need to define that
15:32:25 [MichaelC]
What if we say either caption or summary is required (caption preferred, and summary desired for complex tables)
15:32:49 [MichaelC]
summary *required* for complex tables
15:34:30 [MichaelC]
This doesn't draw the ideal distinction between caption (visual design element) and summary (*quick* description of what is available through a visual scan)
15:38:54 [MichaelC]
Two definitions of summary:
15:39:13 [MichaelC]
1) Summarizes what can be taken in at a glance - very short
15:39:42 [MichaelC]
2) Describes the organization, row/col headers, etc. to give navigational advice
15:46:00 [MichaelC]
refer to
15:49:47 [MichaelC]
action: Michael post the various definitions of summary and caption to get discussion started
15:53:03 [Zakim]
15:57:11 [MichaelC]
TH is to be required for all data tables
15:57:31 [MichaelC]
notwithstanding objection that doesn't a difference in current UA
15:58:27 [MichaelC]
and even when in complex tables headers/id used, still the header cells need to be TH
15:59:54 [Zakim]
15:59:55 [Zakim]
15:59:55 [Zakim]
15:59:56 [Zakim]
15:59:56 [Zakim]
15:59:57 [Zakim]
15:59:57 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:59:59 [Zakim]
Attendees were Don_Evans, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, Chris_Ridpath, Jenae_Andershonis, David_MacDonald
16:00:11 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make log world-visible
16:00:19 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, bye
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Becky, David create a revised picture based on her use cases [1]
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael, Jenae: create updated prototype of Guidelines link to traffic cop, and links to techniques, checklists, and test cases [2]
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Michael post the various definitions of summary and caption to get discussion started [3]
16:00:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in