14:04:13 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:49 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:04:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Don_Evans, [Microsoft], ??P4, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang
14:05:12 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P4 is Chris_Ridpath
14:05:12 <Zakim> +Chris_Ridpath; got it
14:06:37 <MichaelC> -- navigation approaches & use cases --
14:06:38 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0333.html
14:06:45 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0457.html
14:07:57 <MichaelC> Becky took Tom's personae and tried to make real world examles
14:08:59 <MichaelC> zakim, [Microsoft] is temporarily Jenae_Andershonis
14:08:59 <Zakim> +Jenae_Andershonis; got it
14:09:33 <MichaelC> would like to get from guidelines to techniques and back
14:09:39 <MichaelC> or from guidelines to checklists
14:10:23 <MichaelC> may need to go from document to document to get clarity on specific questions
14:10:30 <MichaelC> tried one to use traffic cop
14:12:25 <MichaelC> Same question as last week: not sure on difference between tech-independent techniques and techniques repository
14:12:52 <MichaelC> Would like to be able to go directly from checklists to techniques repository
14:13:13 <MichaelC> Not sure in diagram from last week what entry point into repository is
14:14:28 <MichaelC> action: Becky create a revised picture based on her use cases
14:18:32 <MichaelC> In last of Becky's scenarios, person comes from guideline and wants to go to techniques - how do they do that?
14:18:55 <MichaelC> relates to linking guidelines to techniques http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0191.html
14:20:02 <MichaelC> Process of linking guidelines to techniques through traffic cop
14:20:36 <MichaelC> Do we link from traffic cop to guidelines?
14:20:47 <MichaelC> Or do we also provide links to checklists and techniques?
14:21:25 <MichaelC> Also when do you get from non-tech specific to tech-specific
14:22:13 <MichaelC> Do we need to link out from guidelines to everything, or just to traffic cop?
14:23:54 <MichaelC> We need to understand where there is a 1:1 vs. a 1:many relation
14:25:04 <MichaelC> that can determine how we present linkages
14:28:04 <MichaelC> Also there are possibly multiple guidelines per technique, therefore many:many relations
14:28:10 <MichaelC> but need to keep things simple
14:28:59 <MichaelC> make a constraint that we only define one guideline per technique - strongest one - to maintain the 1:many status
14:30:48 <MichaelC> Perhaps everything links into traffic cop, from which you can get to whichever related document you want
14:30:56 <MichaelC> It's two hops, but it might be clearer where you're going
14:33:59 <Becky> David's traffic cop proposal: http://www.eramp.com/david/traffic_cop_prototype_staticc_no_rows.htm
14:34:44 <MichaelC> add checklists to this
14:35:06 <MichaelC> make guideline links live
14:35:21 <MichaelC> How do people get to test cases?
14:36:02 <MichaelC> Add a field to traffic cop for test cases?
14:36:09 <MichaelC> Link from techniques?
14:37:21 <MichaelC> Need updated prototypes of all this
14:38:06 <MichaelC> action: Michael, Jenae: create updated prototype of Guidelines link to traffic cop, and links to techniques, checklists, and test cases
14:39:14 <Zakim> +??P0
14:39:33 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P0 is David_MacDonald
14:39:33 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
14:40:37 <MichaelC> If we have checklists, would they be in their own field or tied to the technology specific techniques?
14:46:39 <MichaelC> action 1 = Becky, David create a revised picture based on her use cases
14:49:06 <MichaelC> -- end-to-end --
14:49:16 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0054/gateway-outline.htm
14:49:23 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0158.html
14:55:01 <MichaelC> were expecting additional analysis from last week but not yet completed
14:55:09 <MichaelC> postponing this agendum
14:59:40 <MichaelC> -- table headers, layout vs css, and summary and caption --
15:00:11 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0327.html
15:00:55 <MichaelC> Summary attribute gives additional information to an AT user
15:01:06 <MichaelC> it describes something that visually you can take in at a glance
15:01:21 <MichaelC> non-null summary therefore important for data tables
15:02:03 <MichaelC> Is summary in addition to or instead of TH to identify data table?
15:04:42 <MichaelC> not specifically either
15:05:01 <MichaelC> Most recent list discussion was that summary was optional on data tables, and null/absent on layout tables
15:06:08 <MichaelC> Should a summary that describes the data table always be present?
15:06:30 <MichaelC> useful for large tables, less necessary for small tables
15:06:38 <MichaelC> how onerous is it for developers?
15:07:18 <MichaelC> Only require summary on complex tables?
15:07:22 <MichaelC> then we have to define that
15:07:57 <MichaelC> ...multiple rows/cols of headers, and heading for data cell is not in same row and column as the cell
15:08:22 <MichaelC> Second part of that definition the only important part?
15:12:35 <MichaelC> line between complexity for headers, and complexity for summary
15:13:11 <MichaelC> CAPTION should describe what table contains, and summary should summarize the layout/organization of information
15:16:39 <MichaelC> CAPTION is for everybody
15:16:45 <MichaelC> summary is mainly for screen reader users
15:20:41 <MichaelC> Imagine a "perfect" table: has a CAPTION, meaningful and brief summary, TH for all headers, and additional header markup if needed
15:20:55 <MichaelC> Don't like to require CAPTION because of visual impact
15:21:14 <MichaelC> CSS to hide possible, but current UA support leads to that being unavailable in screen readers also
15:23:53 <BeckyG> BeckyG has joined #wai-wcag
15:24:22 <MichaelC> If UA support were working, would we be comfortable requiring CAPTION but hiding it visually if desired?
15:24:40 <MichaelC> No - it's defined as a visual element
15:24:55 <MichaelC> Which of these features make an actual difference to users?
15:24:57 <MichaelC> Summary
15:25:28 <MichaelC> TH - UA will read "headers" even if absent but presence can still help
15:29:19 <Zakim> -Chris_Ridpath
15:29:24 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
15:30:27 <MichaelC> Do we unanimously agree that TH should always be required?
15:30:44 <MichaelC> can live with it, but don't like to require something that doesn't make a measurable impact for users
15:30:54 <MichaelC> Do we unanimously agree that summary should always be required?
15:31:13 <MichaelC> no, should only be required for complex tables - but we need to define that
15:32:25 <MichaelC> What if we say either caption or summary is required (caption preferred, and summary desired for complex tables)
15:32:49 <MichaelC> summary *required* for complex tables
15:34:30 <MichaelC> This doesn't draw the ideal distinction between caption (visual design element) and summary (*quick* description of what is available through a visual scan)
15:38:54 <MichaelC> Two definitions of summary:
15:39:13 <MichaelC> 1) Summarizes what can be taken in at a glance - very short
15:39:42 <MichaelC> 2) Describes the organization, row/col headers, etc. to give navigational advice
15:46:00 <MichaelC> refer to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0377.html
15:49:47 <MichaelC> action: Michael post the various definitions of summary and caption to get discussion started
15:53:03 <Zakim> -Jenae_Andershonis
15:57:11 <MichaelC> TH is to be required for all data tables
15:57:31 <MichaelC> notwithstanding objection that doesn't a difference in current UA
15:58:27 <MichaelC> and even when in complex tables headers/id used, still the header cells need to be TH
15:59:54 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
15:59:55 <Zakim> -Don_Evans
15:59:55 <Zakim> -Jim_Thatcher
15:59:56 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
15:59:56 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
15:59:57 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:59:57 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:59:59 <Zakim> Attendees were Don_Evans, Jim_Thatcher, Becky_Gibson, Michael_Cooper, Sailesh_Panchang, Chris_Ridpath, Jenae_Andershonis, David_MacDonald
16:00:11 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world-visible
16:00:19 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
16:00:19 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
16:00:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Becky, David create a revised picture based on her use cases [1]
16:00:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T14-14-28
16:00:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael, Jenae: create updated prototype of Guidelines link to traffic cop, and links to techniques, checklists, and test cases [2]
16:00:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T14-38-06
16:00:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Michael post the various definitions of summary and caption to get discussion started [3]
16:00:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/05/19-wai-wcag-irc#T15-49-47