14:28:22 RRSAgent has joined #dawg 14:28:30 +DanC 14:28:40 +Kevin 14:28:45 * what is this buzzing noise? 14:28:49 Zakim, who's on the phone? 14:28:49 On the phone I see SteveH, [UMD], Yoshio, HowardK, AndyS, DanC, Kevin 14:29:04 Zakim, take up agendum 1 14:29:04 agendum 1. "convene, take roll, review record, agenda" taken up [from DanC_] 14:29:13 + +1.732.384.aaaa 14:29:17 +Farrukh 14:29:27 Zakim, aaaa is DaveB 14:29:28 +DaveB; got it 14:29:30 zakim, please dial ericP-415 14:29:30 ok, ericP; the call is being made 14:29:31 +EricP 14:29:39 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:29:39 On the phone I see SteveH, [UMD], Yoshio, HowardK, AndyS, DanC, Kevin, DaveB, Farrukh, EricP 14:29:39 rob_ has joined #dawg 14:29:41 +RobS 14:31:25 + +358.405.08aabb 14:31:44 Zakim, mute aabb temporarily 14:31:44 +358.405.08aabb should now be muted 14:31:59 +358.405.08aabb should now be unmuted again 14:32:14 Zakim, aabb is JanneS 14:32:14 +JanneS; got it 14:32:27 JosD has joined #dawg 14:32:31 +Kendall_Clark 14:32:41 +JosD 14:33:06 ! 14:33:09 Zakim, who is on the phone? 14:33:09 On the phone I see SteveH, [UMD], Yoshio, HowardK, AndyS, DanC, Kevin, DaveB, Farrukh, EricP, RobS, JanneS, Kendall_Clark, JosD 14:33:12 -[UMD] 14:33:19 * and the kids 14:33:37 zakim, who's talking? 14:33:37 UMD=danielK or not 14:33:48 ericP, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (39%), JanneS (61%), Kendall_Clark (4%) 14:33:58 Zakim, mute JanneS 14:33:58 JanneS should now be muted 14:34:21 minutes of 7 may approved 14:34:38 donm tuesday 17 april 14:34:40 ericP to chair 14:34:48 correction: 18 may 2004 14:34:49 rather, 18 May 14:35:00 AndyS can't make next week either 14:35:00 I'm away attending the WWW2004 14:35:13 avail for 18 howard, rob, k? 14:35:27 nunavail - connolly, ?, beckett, clark?, harris 14:35:43 not avail : +AndyS 14:35:45 Yoshio is not available, either 14:35:55 +[UMD] 14:36:15 +BryanT 14:36:23 Zakiam, [UMD] is temporarily eikeon 14:36:28 heh 14:36:44 DanC: propose cancel 18 May 14:37:00 decided: donm not decided, 18 May cancelled 14:37:08 thompsonbry has joined #dawg 14:37:08 zakim, please mute me 14:37:08 EricP should now be muted 14:37:21 regrets for me 25 may 14:37:36 regrets JosD for 25 May 14:37:44 regrets SteveH for 25May 14:37:44 steveH also travelling 25 May 14:38:15 Kendall: I become unavailable due to travel 27May; so we should publish 26May 14:38:36 when's the W3C publishing holiday? 14:39:06 DanC: likely to decide to pub on 25 May, if you can't attend, send input by mail 14:39:38 yes, we're resolved to meet 26May 14:39:40 25May 14:39:45 decide to meet 2004-05-25 14:40:02 publishing moratorium - staff not avail near w3c AC meeting for pubbing 14:40:21 I can't do some work remotely during 27 to 31 May, but I'll be on holiday, so the less the better. 14:40:29 ACTION DanC: inform the TAG of the conflict between sec13.9 of the HTTP spec and TAG's recommendation on issue 7 14:40:36 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg-comments/ 14:40:48 ericp's action done. 14:40:48 EricP action done 14:41:00 comments on today's agenda 14:41:12 (archive for public feedback on documents) 14:41:15 Zakim, next agendum 14:41:15 agendum 2. "Requirements: 3.1 Multi-edged Paths" taken up [from DanC_] 14:41:27 added andys's item http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0342.html near item 5 14:41:52 no JF 14:42:16 +PatH 14:42:30 1.48 is the latest 14:42:32 $Id: 11-dawg-irc.txt,v 1.44 2004/05/11 20:02:25 swick Exp $ 14:42:41 is there a way to get access to previous versions of this doc? 14:42:52 now "RDF Graph Pattern Matching" 14:42:53 rob_ via w3c cvs 14:42:54 3.1 14:43:19 straw poll on 3.1 14:43:33 -BryanT 14:43:36 ~9ish 14:43:44 ^-appeals 14:43:50 not appeals ~ 1 14:44:01 +BryanT 14:44:15 -Farrukh 14:44:23 Zakim, who's talking? 14:44:32 rob_ - much stronger than before 14:44:34 DanC_, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: AndyS (30%), PatH (4%) 14:44:56 Zakim, mute AndyS 14:44:56 AndyS should now be muted 14:45:05 +Farrukh 14:45:24 rob_: don't like "pattern" language in general 14:45:34 don't like the implication that a query is a grpah pattern 14:45:58 .. original requirement was more of a conjunction, multiple triples 14:46:17 patH has joined #dawg 14:46:29 q+ To say that this excludes path language query languages. And might exclude XQuery. 14:46:30 rob_s prefers to see conjunciton of ... 14:46:49 q? 14:47:14 ack thompsonbry 14:47:14 thompsonbry, you wanted to say that this excludes path language query languages. And might exclude XQuery. 14:47:30 q+ to ask what is the main problem with query in graph 14:47:43 bryan - ... it might exclude ... path langs 14:47:53 ack Yoshio 14:47:53 Yoshio, you wanted to ask what is the main problem with query in graph 14:47:55 q+ 14:48:02 q+ to say that the wording does not describe the graph construction mechanism 14:48:05 q+ to ask bryan to clarify re: path languages, xquery 14:48:51 q+ I don't see the problem -- language says "must include capability"; ie not exclusive 14:49:02 +1 howardk 14:49:20 q+ language says "must include capability", ie not an exclusive requirement 14:49:29 we have a queue :> 14:49:32 rob - patterns are both vague and [too?] powerful 14:49:36 q? 14:49:55 zakim, unmute AndyS 14:49:55 AndyS should no longer be muted 14:49:58 yes, "triple" always means RDF triple in the UC&R 14:50:04 ack andy 14:50:07 q+ howard 14:50:16 q+ 14:50:20 q+ note that req is not exclusive -- "must include capability to ..." 14:50:50 ack ericp 14:50:50 ericP, you wanted to say that the wording does not describe the graph construction mechanism 14:51:11 AndyS: a triple pattern can have variables in it, a triple can't 14:51:21 (an rdf triple) 14:51:24 zakim, mute AndyS 14:51:24 AndyS should now be muted 14:51:34 ack kendall 14:51:34 kendall, you wanted to ask bryan to clarify re: path languages, xquery 14:51:56 EricP; 3.1 wording doesn't exclude mechanism, is not an exclusive 14:52:02 ack howard 14:52:07 kendall - the wording does not exclude path languages also 14:52:45 robs: on path languages, looking at surveys, they are more towards the xml datat model than rdf.. 14:52:55 (kendall, don't believe that - there are rdf ones) 14:52:57 that's not me 14:53:08 they try to map xpath syntax on rdf data model, IMO. 14:53:31 ack path 14:53:33 q? 14:53:35 above was Bryan talking (path langs) 14:53:58 I *still* support the requirement. 14:54:12 rob: support the intent, but don't think it's that clear 14:54:33 * patterns like xpath and RDF graph with variables, are they similar? 14:54:34 zakim, unmute AndyS 14:54:34 AndyS should no longer be muted 14:54:35 PROPOSED: to adopt 3.1 RDF Graph Pattern Matching as in 1.48 14:54:54 Vote 14:55:03 abstentions: rob 14:55:19 resolved, adopt 3.1 as a requirement 14:55:22 Zakim, next agendum 14:55:22 agendum 3. "Requirement 3.2 Variable Binding Results" taken up [from DanC_] 14:55:48 Can Andy take an action to draft a definition of "graph pattern"? 14:56:09 summary of OWL-QL experiences http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0245.html 14:56:24 OK - can do. 14:56:27 PatH discusses 0245 14:56:33 fwiw, graph pattern is in my straw, ad hoc glossary to be -- so i'd appreciate that action. 14:56:41 DanC_: thank you! 14:57:09 things dql users wanted 14:57:14 - the form of the answer 14:57:34 a pattern, which might be a different from the query pattern; answer pattern was unrestricted 14:57:45 the query sender had total control over the asnwer format 14:57:52 (db, you can just say: PatH summarizes his message 0245) 14:57:55 but we invented a default to make things easy 14:58:11 yeah 14:58:15 2) may bind & must bind 14:58:44 q+ to ask about may-bind and optional triples : the same intent? 14:59:15 (don't take much notice of the 0245 syntax, there are better forms) 14:59:19 (I gather may bind is different from optional triples) 14:59:43 suppose q is: ?x type Person 14:59:49 thompsonbry has joined #dawg 14:59:49 and data is (blank) type Person 14:59:57 Someone is typing without being muted. 14:59:58 I used to object to this "variable" requirement, but while I'm still skeptical that it should be characterized as a requirement, I think it's the most sensible solution so I'll support it. 15:00:02 hmm... interesting term: "answerer"; might be better than "server" 15:00:18 must bind, you get no response for above, may bind you do 15:00:22 1+ to may bind, it should be up to query sender 15:00:54 let's please not add "may bind" to the list of candidate reqs... 15:01:01 ...at best it's a nice-to-have 15:01:15 PatH and 3) how many answers 15:02:22 Zakim, unmute Farrukh 15:02:22 Farrukh should no longer be muted 15:03:02 ack andy 15:03:02 AndyS, you wanted to ask about may-bind and optional triples : the same intent? 15:03:06 telcon info - dial 61# mute, 60# unmute 15:03:32 and 41# for q+, 40# for q- 15:04:07 Is there a use case in the current document that reflects the needs of the users that pat is describing? 15:04:22 that's a v. complex question :> 15:04:44 best way to get it answered is to publish our use cases doc. 15:05:19 may-bind are allowed to bind to names 15:05:34 all bindings are ground bindings - uri or literal, not blanks 15:05:52 must-bind are compelled to provide uri or literal 15:06:52 q 15:06:57 q+ to ask if it isn't up to query sender 15:06:58 ack danc 15:06:58 DanC_, you wanted to ask who the users/reviewers/commenters were 15:07:21 q+ 15:07:35 audience/users were DAML PI 15:07:47 and daml meeting attendees 15:09:37 loooking at 3.2 15:10:02 PatH - wonde rabout the last 15:10:06 sentence; generally ok 15:10:28 I'd be happy with or without the last sentence 15:10:29 q+ to ask about the scope of the effort and pat's feedback. 15:10:56 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:10:56 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:10:59 q+ 15:10:59 PatH - small point, might be possible to satisfy with no bindings 15:11:25 like a binding of 0 variables implying yes, else no 15:11:31 zakim, mute AndyS 15:11:31 AndyS should now be muted 15:11:38 straw poll on 3.2 15:11:39 q- 15:11:46 not straw poll 15:11:52 striking 3rd sentence 15:12:02 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:12:02 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:12:17 can't understand 15:12:47 zakim, mute AndyS 15:12:47 AndyS should now be muted 15:13:13 +1 to PatH 15:13:20 1+ 15:13:29 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:13:29 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:14:15 zakim, mute AndyS 15:14:15 AndyS should now be muted 15:14:28 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:14:28 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:14:56 discussion of 3.2 and wordinjg 15:15:02 need to define a binding 15:15:07 and comapre with a tuple of values 15:15:08 zakim, mute AndyS 15:15:08 AndyS should now be muted 15:15:52 kendall - cannot do a glossary before pubbing this doc version 15:16:14 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:16:14 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:17:22 zakim, mute AndyS 15:17:22 AndyS should now be muted 15:19:08 rob - sentence 2 start "Each binding set is one way..." 15:19:15 RobS: "It must be possible for queries to return zero or more bindings of variables. Each binding set is one way that the query can be satisfied by the queried graph." 15:19:15 +1 to to rob_ wording 15:19:23 +1 to rob_ 15:19:45 +1 to last sentence out. 15:19:51 +1 15:19:56 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:19:56 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:20:08 q- 15:20:08 RobS: "It must be possible for queries to return zero or more bindings of variables. Each set of bindings is one way that the query can be satisfied by the queried graph." 15:20:10 "Set of bindings" 15:20:30 zakim, mute AndyS 15:20:30 AndyS should now be muted 15:20:36 q- 15:20:43 PROPOSED: "It must be possible for queries to return zero or more bindings of variables. Each set of bindings is one way that the query can be satisfied by the queried graph." 15:21:56 i think that we'll have to finish wordsmithing this when we clarify our vocabulary in general 15:22:10 +1 ericp 15:22:23 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:22:23 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:22:29 objectsion to above proposal? 15:22:30 none 15:22:34 abstrain: josD 15:22:42 ^abstain 15:22:47 against: none 15:23:13 resolved above is a requirement 15:23:22 zakim, mute AndyS 15:23:22 AndyS should now be muted 15:23:31 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:23:31 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:24:09 AndyS on xsd datatypes 15:24:20 editing 3.7 15:24:40 AndyS - 3.7 as of now, is close enought 15:24:57 zakim, mute AndyS 15:24:57 AndyS should now be muted 15:25:07 proposal to adopt 3.7 as written in 1.4.8? 15:25:09 1.48? 15:25:12 object - none 15:25:14 abstain - none 15:25:15 sweet! 15:25:16 against - none 15:25:19 query language language? 15:25:19 nice 15:25:20 I can hardly call the background noise on this call "silence" 15:25:21 resolved, adopt 3.7 as reuquirement 15:25:24 Zakim, next agendum 15:25:24 agendum 4. "Requirement 3.4 Subgraph Results" taken up [from DanC_] 15:25:29 Zakim, next agendum 15:25:29 agendum 4 was just opened, DanC_ 15:25:33 Zakim, close agendum 4 15:25:33 agendum 4 closed 15:25:34 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is 15:25:35 5. Use Cases Draft [from DanC_] 15:25:46 "3.7 Limited Datatype Support 15:25:46 we adopted "3.7 Limited datatype support - The query language language must include support for a subset of XSD datatypes and operations on those datatypes." 15:26:12 . ACTION: RobS to generate some RDF for the use cases 15:26:17 done in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0362.html 15:26:23 aha... http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0362.html 15:26:59 kendall - would expect to see rdf & graphs on each of the UCs or not at all 15:27:02 q+ to say "why just these two" 15:27:07 thompsonbry has joined #dawg 15:27:31 q+ to ask the point of introducing Spanish language in 2.3 15:27:39 q- thompsonbry 15:28:14 +1 15:28:41 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:28:41 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:29:40 ack ericP 15:29:41 ericP, you wanted to say "why just these two" 15:30:35 (would each person please speak for himself/herself? "we did XYZ" puts words in people's mouths and prompts them to revisit history) 15:32:06 ack Yoshio 15:32:06 Yoshio, you wanted to ask the point of introducing Spanish language in 2.3 15:32:06 ack yoshio 15:33:41 language tags mentioned, but not used in the user case 15:33:56 suggestion it would be better in a separate UC, with discussion of use of such tags 15:34:09 rdf or not in UC discussion 15:34:28 Rob's action continues. 15:35:40 . ACTION: Kendall and Alberto to work on section 5.1.3 of this document 15:36:00 WITHDRAWN. 15:36:06 ? there is no 5.1.3 15:36:14 Zakim, next agendum 15:36:14 agendum 5. "Use Cases Draft" taken up [from DanC_] 15:36:40 ACTION DaveB: write up this educational metadata UC (continues) 15:37:23 DONE: ACTION Yoshio: to write up "Kate finds an article and wants to find related programs..." 15:37:48 . Browsing Example - tell me about X, ACTION Steve Harris 15:37:52 2.4 is it, I think 15:38:02 ACTION Browsing Example - tell me about X, ACTION Steve Harris continues 15:38:34 Bandwidth Efficiency - bytesize of resultset, ACTION SteveH DONE. Kendall thinks he incorporated it. 15:38:36 steve, kendall suggest this is in the doc 15:38:52 Zakim, unmute JanneS 15:38:52 JanneS should no longer be muted 15:39:25 ACTION SteveH: to draft and maintain a list of test sketch cases, including x < y, x < 18. (continues) 15:39:50 zakim, unmute AndyS 15:39:50 AndyS should no longer be muted 15:39:51 considering next meeting date 15:40:04 who can make next Monday? 15:40:31 AndyS, BryanT 15:40:43 DanielK 15:40:52 - willing to review by date 15:40:55 25 May 15:41:31 -JanneS 15:41:45 kendall, work to do - going through UC, checking with reqs 15:42:07 ... another week, or friday this week 15:42:23 q+ To ask DanC if we could just vote this revision for publishing before the conference? 15:42:28 asks for any help in linking UCs to reqs 15:42:40 ack thompsonbry 15:42:40 thompsonbry, you wanted to ask DanC if we could just vote this revision for publishing before the conference? 15:43:07 *which conference? 15:43:14 WWW2004 15:44:09 straw poll on releasing asap 15:44:35 1- 15:45:48 publishing moritorium data from http://www.w3.org/Press/Plan/: 15:45:48 publishing request deadline: 11May 15:45:48 publishing moritorium start: 12May 15:45:48 publishing moritorium end: 21May 15:47:27 Can review and release today? (Rob & Howard). 15:48:06 prefer to wait til Friday's cut-off 15:48:24 then we publish after the conference. ok. 15:48:43 can't publish in time anyway because of moritorium 15:49:05 input welcome till friday 15:49:13 kendall to email friday state of doc 15:49:22 and after that only changes that are clear mistakes 15:49:32 reviewers andy, daniel, ? to attend 25 May telcon and report 15:49:52 suggest: in published version, there is a list of what reqs are accepted by the WG 15:49:53 kendall may add UC<>requirement links by or before friday 15:50:11 q- 15:50:25 ack danc 15:50:25 DanC_, you wanted to ask that kendall make it clear which requirements have been agreed. 15:50:26 2004-05-25 to decide to pub - attend or send email vote 15:50:46 q+ to comment on kendell's question. 15:51:29 q- 15:51:44 changing sec 3 title to Requirements, adding (candidate) or some marker to unapproved ones instead 15:51:50 general support for that 15:51:59 donm 2004-05-18 15:52:03 bye 15:52:05 -RobS 15:52:05 -JosD 15:52:05 -- adjourned --- 15:52:06 -[UMD] 15:52:06 -DanC 15:52:07 -PatH 15:52:07 bye 15:52:08 -Kevin 15:52:09 -HowardK 15:52:10 howardk has left #dawg 15:52:11 -Farrukh 15:52:14 donm is 05-25 surely 15:52:17 -Yoshio 15:52:18 God night :) 15:52:20 -SteveH 15:52:24 -BryanT 15:52:27 no, ericP chairing 05-18 15:52:51 I thought no one would be there! 15:53:07 Oh well - its in the record 15:53:10 we're resolved to cancel 18 May and meet next 25 May. 15:53:13 rechecking, yes cancelled 15:53:36 Zakim, pointer? 15:53:36 I don't understand your question, DB-scribe. 15:53:38