13:52:26 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
13:52:38 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
13:57:41 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
13:57:48 <Zakim> +Michael_Cooper
13:57:53 <MichaelC> zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
13:57:53 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
13:57:57 <JimT> JimT has joined #wai-wcag
13:59:44 <Zakim> +Jim_Thatcher
14:00:35 <Zakim> +??P12
14:01:07 <MichaelC> zakim, ??P12 is David_MacDonald
14:01:07 <Zakim> +David_MacDonald; got it
14:01:21 <Zakim> + +1.978.399.aaaa
14:01:38 <Zakim> +Chris_Ridpath
14:01:47 <Zakim> +Don_Evans
14:01:55 <MichaelC> zakim, +1.978 is Becky_Gibson
14:01:55 <Zakim> +Becky_Gibson; got it
14:02:07 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:08 <donaldfevans> donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:19 <Zakim> +Sailesh_Panchang
14:02:29 <bcaldwell> bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:34 <wendy> wendy has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:39 <Zakim> +Judy
14:02:50 <Zakim> +??P26
14:02:59 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, ??P26
14:02:59 <bcaldwell> zakim, ??P26 is Ben
14:03:01 <Zakim> +Ben; got it
14:03:20 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone
14:03:28 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who's on the phone', MichaelC
14:03:30 <MichaelC> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:35 <wendy> zakim, call wendy-617
14:03:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, Ben
14:03:41 <Zakim> ok, wendy; the call is being made
14:03:43 <Zakim> +Wendy
14:03:53 <wendy> zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, Ben, Wendy
14:05:48 <wendy> end-to-end summaries
14:06:06 <MichaelC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/0158.html
14:06:36 <Zakim> +David_D
14:10:39 <wendy> need to be careful about wording and description of disabilities in the gateway
14:10:47 <wendy> particularly issues with 1.4.2
14:11:52 <wendy> david's findings for 1.4: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004AprJun/att-0158/End_to_End_Guildline_1.4.htm
14:12:22 <wendy> if someone were to follow through the 3 documents, don't see much consistency or relationship between them
14:15:33 <MichaelC> goal is to be able to go from [principle, guideline, success criterion, gateway technique, technology specific technique, test file] getting progressive levels of detail
14:16:45 <wendy> there is redundant information in the gateway (guideline/success criteria)
14:17:00 <wendy> we've been treating as separate documents, ideal to have a view that includes everything?
14:19:48 <wendy> since there are not links right now, david did a search for "contrast" to find related pieces
14:21:17 <wendy> how do the success criteria come in?
14:22:14 <wendy> for the guideline, mapped task in gateway. and mapped headline in html technique.
14:22:21 <wendy> if possible map to success criteria
14:22:46 <wendy> if not a direct hit to success criteria, then to guideline or informative section
14:22:55 <wendy> techniques should map to success criterion not a guideline
14:23:30 <wendy> if can't map it, ought to question either the technique or the guideline
14:23:47 <wendy> this applies to gateway as well (michael's opinion)
14:23:50 <wendy> others agree?
14:24:17 <wendy> david disagree  that techniques elaborate on gateway
14:24:33 <wendy> last week, discussed gateway being at same level as other tech-specifics
14:24:43 <wendy> not sure people have to go through gateway to get there
14:25:20 <wendy> after each criterion there should be a link to techniques (so, yes, every technique should refer to a success criteria)
14:25:34 <wendy> gateway is explanation of either criterion or guideline, it is in-between
14:26:06 <wendy> if a link to gateway after each guideline, then could read everything about guideline on the gateway page.
14:30:09 <wendy> is it possible to link to all of the techniques right after each success criteria? we will have many technologies and to update the links have to republish a recommendation.
14:30:21 <wendy> compelling argument that need a gateway so can update as get new links to new techniques
14:31:00 <wendy> techniques more like an encyclopedia, checklists are overview mapping
14:31:08 <wendy> checklists and techniques generated from common source
14:31:29 <wendy> we do not have the checklist yet
14:31:42 <wendy> there will be a direct mapping between success criteria and techniques in the checklists
14:32:56 <wendy> need a link after every success criteria to gateway. from gateway links to tech-specifics
14:33:54 <wendy> when users get to the gateway, if i'm a webmaster i'll want to get right to technology-specifics.
14:34:07 <wendy> will need to examine how people get in and get out easily
14:34:11 <wendy> needs to be simple
14:34:15 <wendy> links should be up front
14:34:23 <wendy> as soon as get to gateway, get a set of links
14:34:49 <wendy> gateway has 2 purposes, perhaps it should be 2 doucments. 1. traffic cop 2. techniques that are non-tech specific
14:34:55 <wendy> traffic cop role is most important role
14:35:39 <wendy> we need a prototype!
14:36:36 <wendy> action: david, michael, ben, tom create a prototype
14:37:47 <Zakim> +??P8
14:38:21 <wendy> zakim, ??P8 is Lisa_Seeman
14:38:21 <Zakim> +Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:40:11 <wendy> where do checklists fit into the mapping?
14:40:54 <wendy> traffic cop: destinations from there would be html techs, css techs, checklists
14:41:08 <wendy> checklists stand-alone
14:42:34 <wendy> starting point for checklists and starting point for techniques
14:43:29 <wendy> gateway is almost the key place to start, because it can outline all of the pieces and where to go
14:47:07 <wendy> had a similar structure with WCAG 1.0: after every checkpoint had a linkt to techniques. techniques was "traffic cop" that linked to core (general techniques), html, and css
14:47:20 <wendy> many people never saw the links to techniques and did not know those docs existed.
14:47:33 <wendy> in usability studies, found that part of the issue is formatting
14:47:38 <wendy> what about a table?
14:47:53 <wendy> a column for each technology
14:48:12 <wendy> useful for us, useful for users?
14:51:36 <wendy> from last week: lisa do mapping for 1.3, jenae 1.1
14:52:53 <wendy> working on mappings in parallel to working on prototype
14:52:57 <wendy> two pieces:
14:53:31 <wendy> 1. connecting the pieces: guidelines, success criteria, html/css techniques, test cases.  looking at examples and following through pieces to make sure they are built on at each layer.
14:54:49 <wendy> tying in test cases is important piece
14:56:50 <wendy> create prototype with "greeked" text so that people focus on the structure and flow and not the content.
14:58:29 <wendy> ===
14:58:44 <bcaldwell> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=248
14:59:32 <wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0230.html
15:00:08 <wendy> we looked at th - data tables must have, layout tables must not
15:00:22 <wendy> looking at real world examples to see if that makes sense
15:00:51 <wendy> [x] has a large database of tables
15:01:13 <wendy> also discussion, should be tables be allowed for layout at all?
15:01:34 <wendy> there are millions of them, can't stop them.
15:02:38 <wendy> menu, w/submenu items. is that layout or data? sometimes it is a continuim and not clearly one or the other
15:03:46 <wendy> he was looking at tables, not in terms of accessibility. not sure what using info for. has a complex algorithm.
15:03:49 <MichaelC> http://www.math.harvard.edu/~ylwang/doc/webtablegrnd.zip
15:04:27 <wendy> what is the purpose of the rule?
15:04:37 <wendy> data if th, layout if else
15:04:46 <wendy> different purposes. you navigate the 2 differently.
15:04:52 <wendy> are you making the distinction just on th?
15:05:02 <MichaelC> paper on layout vs data: http://www2002.org/CDROM/refereed/199/
15:07:47 <wendy> looking for real-world layout tables that use th in a good way - if don't find then this should be a good rule (no th in layout)
15:08:37 <wendy> other rules:
15:08:50 <wendy> more than one link in a cell
15:09:03 <wendy> however, separate techniqeus to determine vs rules
15:09:58 <wendy> you must have th elements in a data table
15:10:16 <wendy> (this is the proposed rule)
15:10:58 <wendy> is a one column table a data table? or is it mis-marked list?
15:11:09 <wendy> last tiem around, summaries were required.
15:11:28 <wendy> many not useful, "this is a layout table"
15:11:44 <wendy> instead, let's suggest something that assistive technologies can use.
15:14:22 <Zakim> -Don_Evans
15:15:18 <ChrisR> ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
15:15:21 <wendy> action: chris by next week go through the database of tables to look for use of th (http://www.math.harvard.edu/~ylwang/doc/webtablegrnd.zip)
15:16:42 <wendy> issue with use of th creating visual presentation.
15:16:45 <wendy> override w/style
15:18:17 <wendy> support for css is sufficient that the default rednering is not excuse to misuse semantic markup.
15:18:29 <wendy> (consensus)
15:19:37 <wendy> lisa concerned about the grey area between layout and data tables
15:26:29 <wendy> action: chris write to yalin wang, ask his opinion about use of th to identify data tables
15:26:56 <ChrisR> Yalin's paper on table detection: http://www2002.org/CDROM/refereed/199/
15:28:05 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#datatables_th
15:28:20 <wendy> may also need technique that says "don't use th on layout tables"
15:29:47 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031209/#layouttables_td
15:30:15 <wendy> changes in order of data table techniques
15:30:19 <wendy> need to clean up editorial notes
15:30:38 <wendy> how to determine if something is a layout table vs data table
15:31:20 <wendy> need a definition and examples
15:32:17 <wendy> in data table, never have a nested table?
15:33:34 <Zakim> -Jim_Thatcher
15:33:35 <Zakim> -Becky_Gibson
15:33:36 <Zakim> -Lisa_Seeman
15:33:36 <Zakim> -Judy
15:33:37 <Zakim> -Sailesh_Panchang
15:33:37 <Zakim> -Chris_Ridpath
15:33:39 <Zakim> -David_D
15:33:42 <ChrisR> ChrisR has left #wai-wcag
15:45:05 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
15:45:06 <Zakim> -Wendy
15:45:06 <Zakim> -David_MacDonald
15:45:07 <Zakim> -Ben
15:45:08 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:45:09 <Zakim> Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, +1.978.399.aaaa, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, Ben, Wendy, David_D, Lisa_Seeman
15:45:15 <wendy> zakim, bye
15:45:15 <Zakim> Zakim has left #wai-wcag
15:45:19 <wendy> RRSAgent, bye
15:45:19 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
15:45:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: david, michael, ben, tom create a prototype [1]
15:45:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/28-wai-wcag-irc#T14-36-36
15:45:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chris by next week go through the database of tables to look for use of th (http://www.math.harvard.edu/~ylwang/doc/webtablegrnd.zip) [2]
15:45:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/28-wai-wcag-irc#T15-15-21
15:45:19 <RRSAgent> ACTION: chris write to yalin wang, ask his opinion about use of th to identify data tables [3]
15:45:19 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/28-wai-wcag-irc#T15-26-29