IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-04-28

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:52:26 [RRSAgent]
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13:52:38 [MichaelC]
rrsagent, make logs world-visible
13:57:41 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has now started
13:57:48 [Zakim]
13:57:53 [MichaelC]
zakim, I am Michael_Cooper
13:57:53 [Zakim]
ok, MichaelC, I now associate you with Michael_Cooper
13:57:57 [JimT]
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14:00:35 [Zakim]
14:01:07 [MichaelC]
zakim, ??P12 is David_MacDonald
14:01:07 [Zakim]
+David_MacDonald; got it
14:01:21 [Zakim]
+ +1.978.399.aaaa
14:01:38 [Zakim]
14:01:47 [Zakim]
14:01:55 [MichaelC]
zakim, +1.978 is Becky_Gibson
14:01:55 [Zakim]
+Becky_Gibson; got it
14:02:07 [ChrisR]
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donaldfevans has joined #wai-wcag
14:02:19 [Zakim]
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14:02:34 [wendy]
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14:02:39 [Zakim]
14:02:50 [Zakim]
14:02:59 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:02:59 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, ??P26
14:02:59 [bcaldwell]
zakim, ??P26 is Ben
14:03:01 [Zakim]
+Ben; got it
14:03:20 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone
14:03:28 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', MichaelC
14:03:30 [MichaelC]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:35 [wendy]
zakim, call wendy-617
14:03:38 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, Ben
14:03:41 [Zakim]
ok, wendy; the call is being made
14:03:43 [Zakim]
14:03:53 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
14:03:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, Becky_Gibson, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, Ben, Wendy
14:05:48 [wendy]
end-to-end summaries
14:06:06 [MichaelC]
14:06:36 [Zakim]
14:10:39 [wendy]
need to be careful about wording and description of disabilities in the gateway
14:10:47 [wendy]
particularly issues with 1.4.2
14:11:52 [wendy]
david's findings for 1.4:
14:12:22 [wendy]
if someone were to follow through the 3 documents, don't see much consistency or relationship between them
14:15:33 [MichaelC]
goal is to be able to go from [principle, guideline, success criterion, gateway technique, technology specific technique, test file] getting progressive levels of detail
14:16:45 [wendy]
there is redundant information in the gateway (guideline/success criteria)
14:17:00 [wendy]
we've been treating as separate documents, ideal to have a view that includes everything?
14:19:48 [wendy]
since there are not links right now, david did a search for "contrast" to find related pieces
14:21:17 [wendy]
how do the success criteria come in?
14:22:14 [wendy]
for the guideline, mapped task in gateway. and mapped headline in html technique.
14:22:21 [wendy]
if possible map to success criteria
14:22:46 [wendy]
if not a direct hit to success criteria, then to guideline or informative section
14:22:55 [wendy]
techniques should map to success criterion not a guideline
14:23:30 [wendy]
if can't map it, ought to question either the technique or the guideline
14:23:47 [wendy]
this applies to gateway as well (michael's opinion)
14:23:50 [wendy]
others agree?
14:24:17 [wendy]
david disagree that techniques elaborate on gateway
14:24:33 [wendy]
last week, discussed gateway being at same level as other tech-specifics
14:24:43 [wendy]
not sure people have to go through gateway to get there
14:25:20 [wendy]
after each criterion there should be a link to techniques (so, yes, every technique should refer to a success criteria)
14:25:34 [wendy]
gateway is explanation of either criterion or guideline, it is in-between
14:26:06 [wendy]
if a link to gateway after each guideline, then could read everything about guideline on the gateway page.
14:30:09 [wendy]
is it possible to link to all of the techniques right after each success criteria? we will have many technologies and to update the links have to republish a recommendation.
14:30:21 [wendy]
compelling argument that need a gateway so can update as get new links to new techniques
14:31:00 [wendy]
techniques more like an encyclopedia, checklists are overview mapping
14:31:08 [wendy]
checklists and techniques generated from common source
14:31:29 [wendy]
we do not have the checklist yet
14:31:42 [wendy]
there will be a direct mapping between success criteria and techniques in the checklists
14:32:56 [wendy]
need a link after every success criteria to gateway. from gateway links to tech-specifics
14:33:54 [wendy]
when users get to the gateway, if i'm a webmaster i'll want to get right to technology-specifics.
14:34:07 [wendy]
will need to examine how people get in and get out easily
14:34:11 [wendy]
needs to be simple
14:34:15 [wendy]
links should be up front
14:34:23 [wendy]
as soon as get to gateway, get a set of links
14:34:49 [wendy]
gateway has 2 purposes, perhaps it should be 2 doucments. 1. traffic cop 2. techniques that are non-tech specific
14:34:55 [wendy]
traffic cop role is most important role
14:35:39 [wendy]
we need a prototype!
14:36:36 [wendy]
action: david, michael, ben, tom create a prototype
14:37:47 [Zakim]
14:38:21 [wendy]
zakim, ??P8 is Lisa_Seeman
14:38:21 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
14:40:11 [wendy]
where do checklists fit into the mapping?
14:40:54 [wendy]
traffic cop: destinations from there would be html techs, css techs, checklists
14:41:08 [wendy]
checklists stand-alone
14:42:34 [wendy]
starting point for checklists and starting point for techniques
14:43:29 [wendy]
gateway is almost the key place to start, because it can outline all of the pieces and where to go
14:47:07 [wendy]
had a similar structure with WCAG 1.0: after every checkpoint had a linkt to techniques. techniques was "traffic cop" that linked to core (general techniques), html, and css
14:47:20 [wendy]
many people never saw the links to techniques and did not know those docs existed.
14:47:33 [wendy]
in usability studies, found that part of the issue is formatting
14:47:38 [wendy]
what about a table?
14:47:53 [wendy]
a column for each technology
14:48:12 [wendy]
useful for us, useful for users?
14:51:36 [wendy]
from last week: lisa do mapping for 1.3, jenae 1.1
14:52:53 [wendy]
working on mappings in parallel to working on prototype
14:52:57 [wendy]
two pieces:
14:53:31 [wendy]
1. connecting the pieces: guidelines, success criteria, html/css techniques, test cases. looking at examples and following through pieces to make sure they are built on at each layer.
14:54:49 [wendy]
tying in test cases is important piece
14:56:50 [wendy]
create prototype with "greeked" text so that people focus on the structure and flow and not the content.
14:58:29 [wendy]
14:58:44 [bcaldwell]
14:59:32 [wendy]
15:00:08 [wendy]
we looked at th - data tables must have, layout tables must not
15:00:22 [wendy]
looking at real world examples to see if that makes sense
15:00:51 [wendy]
[x] has a large database of tables
15:01:13 [wendy]
also discussion, should be tables be allowed for layout at all?
15:01:34 [wendy]
there are millions of them, can't stop them.
15:02:38 [wendy]
menu, w/submenu items. is that layout or data? sometimes it is a continuim and not clearly one or the other
15:03:46 [wendy]
he was looking at tables, not in terms of accessibility. not sure what using info for. has a complex algorithm.
15:03:49 [MichaelC]
15:04:27 [wendy]
what is the purpose of the rule?
15:04:37 [wendy]
data if th, layout if else
15:04:46 [wendy]
different purposes. you navigate the 2 differently.
15:04:52 [wendy]
are you making the distinction just on th?
15:05:02 [MichaelC]
paper on layout vs data:
15:07:47 [wendy]
looking for real-world layout tables that use th in a good way - if don't find then this should be a good rule (no th in layout)
15:08:37 [wendy]
other rules:
15:08:50 [wendy]
more than one link in a cell
15:09:03 [wendy]
however, separate techniqeus to determine vs rules
15:09:58 [wendy]
you must have th elements in a data table
15:10:16 [wendy]
(this is the proposed rule)
15:10:58 [wendy]
is a one column table a data table? or is it mis-marked list?
15:11:09 [wendy]
last tiem around, summaries were required.
15:11:28 [wendy]
many not useful, "this is a layout table"
15:11:44 [wendy]
instead, let's suggest something that assistive technologies can use.
15:14:22 [Zakim]
15:15:18 [ChrisR]
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15:15:21 [wendy]
action: chris by next week go through the database of tables to look for use of th (
15:16:42 [wendy]
issue with use of th creating visual presentation.
15:16:45 [wendy]
override w/style
15:18:17 [wendy]
support for css is sufficient that the default rednering is not excuse to misuse semantic markup.
15:18:29 [wendy]
15:19:37 [wendy]
lisa concerned about the grey area between layout and data tables
15:26:29 [wendy]
action: chris write to yalin wang, ask his opinion about use of th to identify data tables
15:26:56 [ChrisR]
Yalin's paper on table detection:
15:28:05 [wendy]
15:28:20 [wendy]
may also need technique that says "don't use th on layout tables"
15:29:47 [wendy]
15:30:15 [wendy]
changes in order of data table techniques
15:30:19 [wendy]
need to clean up editorial notes
15:30:38 [wendy]
how to determine if something is a layout table vs data table
15:31:20 [wendy]
need a definition and examples
15:32:17 [wendy]
in data table, never have a nested table?
15:33:34 [Zakim]
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15:33:37 [Zakim]
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15:45:05 [Zakim]
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15:45:06 [Zakim]
15:45:07 [Zakim]
15:45:08 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
15:45:09 [Zakim]
Attendees were Michael_Cooper, Jim_Thatcher, David_MacDonald, +1.978.399.aaaa, Chris_Ridpath, Don_Evans, Becky_Gibson, Sailesh_Panchang, Judy, Ben, Wendy, David_D, Lisa_Seeman
15:45:15 [wendy]
zakim, bye
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15:45:19 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: david, michael, ben, tom create a prototype [1]
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris by next week go through the database of tables to look for use of th ( [2]
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: chris write to yalin wang, ask his opinion about use of th to identify data tables [3]
15:45:19 [RRSAgent]
recorded in