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06:50:58 <DanC_AMS> RRSAgent, pointer?
06:50:58 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/04/23-dawg-irc#T06-50-58
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07:00:07 <Yoshio> Goede morgen! 
07:02:32 <alberto> alberto has joined #dawg
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07:11:01 <Yoshio> 23:00 is reasonable, but does it mean 24:00 in winter time?
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07:15:06 <Yoshio> 7:30 am? hmm, I have to make my children prepared for the schools...
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07:18:33 <dirkx> Tuesday 14.00 to 15.30 avoids DAWG and is not too baxd for everyone.
07:19:01 <alberto> +1
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07:40:14 <DanC_jam> yeah... there's some cool work at u. washington on scheduling with RDF.
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08:08:56 <DaveB> test
08:11:10 <Yoshio> Yoshio has joined #dawg
08:15:43 <kendall> ping
08:20:56 <Yoshio> pong
08:22:24 <Yoshio> Yoshio's homework --> http://www.w3.org/2004/04/21-fuku/addendum1.html
08:22:49 <AndyS> AndyS has joined #dawg
08:24:09 <kendall> yoshio: oh, good, i'll look carefully at that
08:27:32 <AndyS> 2005 TP : February-March 2005, New England  : http://www.w3.org/2002/09/TPOverview.html
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08:33:26 <DaveB> kendall discusses updated usecases doc\
08:33:30 <DaveB> at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases
08:33:46 <DaveB> took the  8 UCs with the most votes and tried to do the big rewrites, not everything yet
08:33:57 <DanC_jam> (er... $Revision: 1.122 $???)
08:33:57 <DaveB> struck all the benefits into the new section 4
08:34:03 <DaveB> moved the TR canidates to sec 5
08:34:21 <DaveB> CVs 1.25
08:34:39 <DanC_jam>  Revision 1.25 / (download) / (as text) - annotate - [select for diffs] , Fri Apr 23 08:13:40 2004 UTC (20 minutes, 49 seconds ago) by dbeckett2
08:34:40 <DaveB> revision 1.25
08:34:40 <DaveB> date: 2004/04/23 08:13:40;  author: dbeckett2;  state: Exp;  lines: +656 -614
08:34:58 <DaveB> a cleaner version by next Friday
08:35:01 <DanC_jam> KC: draft by this coming Friday is likely
08:35:04 <DaveB> 30th April
08:35:21 <DaveB> RS: next telcon Tues?
08:36:04 <DaveB> Next telcon proposal 4th May 2004
08:36:19 <DaveB> KC: intend to aim for draft for end May
08:36:34 <DaveB> ... like to have it ready around telcon of 18th
08:36:39 <DanC_jam> (we're RESOLVED to meet 4 May. that's a refinement of the record of the decision we made earlier)
08:37:04 <DaveB> AS: note that www2004 is mid may 17-20
08:37:28 <DaveB> RS: would like to see drafts as soon as possible, even incomplete
08:37:33 <AndyS> me : Who will be at WWW?  I will (Wed-Sat)
08:37:43 <DaveB> KC: my practice is to check in early, often
08:38:03 <kendall> i won't
08:38:17 <DaveB> ACTION: AndyS, EricP to review kendallC draft by 4 May telcon
08:39:49 <DaveB> DanC - hypertext style - headings as targets of links, move the email pointers to seealso.  maybe
08:40:07 <DaveB> RESOLVED: kendall has done a great job
08:41:02 <kendall> ---Discussion of Candidate Technical Requirements---
08:41:26 <DanC_jam> (revisiting http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftfreq)
08:42:38 <DanC_jam> q+ to suggest "tri-colored queries"
08:42:52 <SteveH> SteveH has joined #dawg
08:42:53 <ericP_> q+ to demo queuing
08:42:57 <DanC_jam> q?
08:43:12 <DanC_jam> q+ danc2 to say "blueberry queries"
08:43:16 <DanC_jam> ack danc_jam
08:43:16 <Zakim> DanC_jam, you wanted to suggest "tri-colored queries"
08:43:22 <DanC_jam> ack ericp
08:43:22 <Zakim> ericP_, you wanted to demo queuing
08:43:24 <DanC_jam> ack danc2
08:43:24 <Zakim> danc2, you wanted to say "blueberry queries"
08:44:00 <ericP_> q+ demo queue removal
08:44:02 <ericP_> q-
08:44:10 <ericP_> q+ to demo queue removal
08:44:12 <ericP_> q-
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08:44:27 <DanC_jam> poll: how many support "Queries supporting datatypes xsd:integer and xsd:float with operations: less than, equal, greater than"?
08:44:38 <DanC_jam> pollR1: how many support "Queries supporting datatypes xsd:integer and xsd:float with operations: less than, equal, greater than"?
08:44:42 <DanC_jam> R1 +1
08:44:53 <SteveH> R1 +1
08:44:53 <ericP_> R1 +1
08:44:56 <JosD> R1 +1
08:45:01 <Phandaal> R1 +1
08:45:03 <DaveB> R1 +1
08:45:04 <alberto> R1 +1
08:45:04 <Yoshio> R1 +1
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08:45:16 <AndyS> xsd:string needed? 
08:45:27 <AndyS> and something about dates?
08:45:28 <alberto> xsd:date also nice to have
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08:46:10 <kendall> +1 xsd:string and xsd:date
08:46:19 <Phandaal> Phandaal has left #dawg
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08:46:40 <kendall> comparing 2 variables harder than comparing variable and a constant
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08:46:56 <ericP_> (quoth RobS)
08:47:05 <kendall> andys: will make a diff in performance, but not really implementational complexity
08:47:30 <kendall> users don't understand why "x < y" is more expensive than "x < 18"
08:47:35 <JosD> q+ implementation experience with math:lessThan
08:47:45 <kendall> (much, much more expensive)
08:48:13 <kendall> Action: SteveH to draft and maintain a list of test sketch cases, including x < y, x < 18
08:49:10 <kendall> ACTION SteveH: to draft and maintain a list of test sketch cases, including x < y, x < 18
08:49:32 <DanC_jam> Howard: beware of comparisons across types. coersion, etc.
08:49:57 <kendall> SteveH: agrees with Andy re: comparisons of var to constant
08:50:04 <JosD> q+ to say that implementation experience with math:lessThan
08:50:09 <DanC_jam> ack josd
08:50:09 <Zakim> JosD, you wanted to say that implementation experience with math:lessThan
08:50:13 <kendall> EricP: agnostic as to adding 2 var comparison to language
08:50:50 <kendall> JosdR: implementation experience w/ these comparisons, hasn't run into performance difficulties.
08:51:19 <kendall> RobS: in some forms of inferencing, 2-var comparisons much harder to reason about; OWL has problem expressing this kind of thing.
08:51:31 <ericP_> q+ to ask RobS if this applies to query
08:51:36 <kendall> RobS: rule langs make it easier to express these
08:52:06 <DaveB> for myself, I've not looked at performance issues with this area, nothing to report yet.
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08:52:27 <kendall> anyone get that last bit from Jos?
08:52:38 <janne> q+ other datatypes than just xsd:integer and xsd:float?
08:52:56 <DanC_jam> q+ janne
08:53:00 <DanC_jam> ack ericp
08:53:00 <Zakim> ericP_, you wanted to ask RobS if this applies to query
08:54:14 <SteveH> q+
08:54:32 <DanC_jam> ack janne
08:54:56 <SteveH> q-
08:55:21 <kendall> Janne suggests adding dates and date-times to list of datatypes
08:55:58 <alberto> +1 for dates
08:56:12 <kendall> Janne has implemented date comparisons in his QL.
08:56:34 <kendall> AndyS gets many requests for such things.
08:56:48 <kendall> AlbertoR gets lots of reqs too.
08:57:32 <kendall> AlbertoR uses data types in RSS 1.0 feeds
08:57:43 <DaveB> q+
08:57:53 <ericP_> q+ to mention SQL use of dates
08:58:06 <DanC_jam> ack daveb
08:58:20 <JFBaget> An other example would be the travel organization (train B must be after train A).
08:58:27 <kendall> Andy doesn't implement it because RDQL predates datatypes in RDF; doesn't have a convenient datatype maths library to bundle in.
08:58:37 <DanC_jam> q+ steve
08:58:49 <DanC_jam> ack steve
08:58:49 <kendall> SteveH hasn't had any requests; his users use ISO date strings for dates.
08:58:51 <DanC_jam> ack ericp
08:58:51 <Zakim> ericP_, you wanted to mention SQL use of dates
08:59:08 <kendall> EricP people tend to use date types in SQL
08:59:09 <alberto> agrees with Andy about the XSD story - good DAWG work will cosider basic scalar data types
08:59:17 <JosD> kendall: it was about a typical implementation of resolution i.e. unification of terms and that takes care of the constants, vars etc
08:59:36 <kendall> ah, thx
08:59:36 <dirkx> JFBaget: date/time ok - but strong concepts like 'at this time' or leaves _after_' or 'time datatype' is more complex than that - as it often also needs a location; i.e. something can be at the same moment in time; yet have a different time stamp due to time zone's, date lines and the point of the observer.
09:00:11 <AndyS> q+ to discuss plain literals
09:00:17 <DanC_jam> poll: who supports DATATYPE-DT?
09:01:20 <DanC_jam> poll shows 9
09:01:41 <DanC_jam> no: 3
09:01:42 <kendall> poll: Bad idea to critical-path dates
09:01:50 <kendall> poll shows 3
09:04:16 <dirkx> So the NO does not means -against- it - it means 'worry about having it on the critical path'.
09:04:36 <ericP_> q+ to ask if anyone thinks they've implemented this
09:04:48 <AndyS> q-
09:05:09 <kendall> perhaps i miscribed the 2nd poll, but i'm confused now too.
09:06:21 <dirkx> yes count: supports the issue. no count: worries about seeing the issue affect the critical path (as opposed to no meaning 'does not support the issue').
09:06:37 <kendall> RobS: you can write a query that uses an arbitrary datatype, but we support only a very limited form of reasoning about it (whether the lexical forms are identical or not...?)
09:09:56 <kendall> RobS wouldn't support the requirement to express queries as URLs
09:11:04 <kendall> poll support requirement for queries as urls
09:11:07 <kendall> poll shows 9
09:11:15 <kendall> 1 opposed
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09:14:32 <DaveB> what are result templates?
09:15:15 <AndyS> Constructing RDF from a variables and a request supplied form (c.f. SeRQL CONSTRUCT and rule (fwd))
09:15:21 <SteveH> q+
09:15:38 <kendall> q+ what are result templates?
09:15:46 <kendall> q+ to ask what are result templates?
09:15:52 <SteveH> q-
09:16:17 <JFBaget> a) Queries using the media type of a document at a particular URL
09:17:02 <JFBaget> b) Use that media type to give the result to the user (picture?) instead of the URL itself.
09:17:11 <kendall> poll for support for "results in user-selectable result template" -- 10 against
09:17:56 <AndyS> q+ to Howard
09:18:11 <kendall> q-
09:18:58 <AndyS> query results to be user-definable
09:19:08 <AndyS> (howard suggests)
09:20:12 <alberto> about result templates/contructors SeRQL has implemented some for of those see http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/events/20031113-storage/positions/aduna.pdf
09:20:45 <kendall> support for "results in user selectable Internet Media Types" -- 5 
09:20:48 <kendall> oppose 4
09:21:44 <ericP_> q-
09:21:59 <AndyS> q-
09:25:25 <AndyS> Charter says "selecting instances of subgraphs from an RDF graph"
09:26:51 <AndyS> q+
09:28:58 <AndyS> q-
09:36:18 <AndyS> q+ to say that "reports" could mean SUM() SORT() etc
09:39:22 <AndyS> q-
09:44:29 <kendall> Query results can be formulated in such a way that graph traversal is not required.
10:01:16 <ericP_> RDF query with reification: http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/#DQL
10:01:59 <ericP_> RDF query as a "direct graph": http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/#QEL
10:02:04 <AndyS> Will need reification for general case else problems with var/constants
10:02:09 <kendall> ACTION Janne: write a use case to motivate the requirement of having queries written in RDF
10:02:55 <AndyS> QEL uses reification at higher levels, does it not?
10:07:54 <janne> Kendall, I said our use cases do not include ones that support the RDF encoded query. Now that i'm opposing its inclusion in requirements, I don't think I make the effort to motivate its inclusion again.
10:10:37 <kendall> janne: okay, so i guess yr action item is discharged. :>
10:34:32 <DaveB> updated http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/ftfreq.txt CVS 1.4 with results of morning
10:58:33 <thompsonbry> thompsonbry has joined #dawg
10:59:49 <kendall> hi bryan
11:11:34 <thompsonbry> hello kendall.
11:18:12 <thompsonbry2> thompsonbry2 has joined #dawg
11:38:27 <thompsonbry2> Can someone setup the projector for the PDF of my presentation?  The URI is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Apr/att-0087/XPointer_and_HTTP_Range_-_draft_-_4-23-2004.pdf
11:41:34 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg
11:42:53 <DanC_jam> DaveB's laptop is hooked up to the projector, and I saw him flipping thru your slides earlier, thompsonbry2
11:43:14 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dawg
11:43:20 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, this will be dawg
11:43:20 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()8:00AM has been moved to #dawg by DanC_AMS
11:43:21 <Zakim> ok, DanC_AMS; I see SW_DAWG()8:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
11:43:34 <thompsonbry2> Cool.  Do you know if he has the updates from this morning?  Or the one from yesterday?
11:43:41 <DanC_AMS> no, I don't know
11:48:15 <alberto> alberto has joined #dawg
11:53:58 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()8:00AM has now started
11:54:05 <Zakim> +BryanT
11:55:42 <thompsonbry2> Dirk, can you dial into the bridge?
11:57:49 <Zakim> +??P1
11:57:49 <DanC_AMS> alberto's trying it...
11:58:19 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, ??P1 is Leiden
11:58:19 <Zakim> +Leiden; got it
11:58:36 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, Leiden holds DanC, Alberto
11:58:36 <Zakim> +DanC, Alberto; got it
11:58:47 <alberto> can you hear us?
11:58:59 <thompsonbry2> I hear a lot of voices, nothing clearly.
11:59:19 <DanC_AMS> I'm losing my voice; not sure how I'm gonna chair this afternoon.
11:59:32 <alberto> ack
11:59:38 <thompsonbry2> Is that why I can't hear you? ;)
11:59:48 <DanC_AMS> ;)
12:00:30 <thompsonbry2> The presentation is: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Apr/att-0087/XPointer_and_HTTP_Range_-_draft_-_4-23-2004.pdf
12:00:41 <thompsonbry2> This is an update from the first posted version.
12:01:22 <AndyS_scribe> AndyS to scribe
12:01:32 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, who's on the phone?
12:01:32 <Zakim> On the phone I see BryanT, Leiden
12:01:33 <Zakim> Leiden has DanC, Alberto
12:01:43 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
12:01:51 <DanC_AMS> (double-checking version of slides)
12:02:58 <AndyS_scribe> BryanT presents http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Apr/0087.html
12:03:29 <AndyS_scribe> Xpointer and HTTP Range for extensible addressible system for RDF
12:03:32 <DanC_AMS> slide 1 of 15: "XPointer and HTTP Range"
12:03:38 <DaveB> byran: can you say "slide 2" etc. when you want to turn over
12:03:41 <AndyS_scribe> Today : #frag isn't passed
12:04:11 <AndyS_scribe> XPointer today is extensible, not scalable
12:04:36 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 3
12:04:44 <DanC_AMS> slide 3 of 15: "Normal HTTP Request & Response"
12:04:52 <DanC_AMS> (we were out of sync on slide 2)
12:05:14 <AndyS_scribe> GET RDF/XML via accept:
12:05:27 <DanC_AMS> (andy, you don't need to copy stuff that's on the slides)
12:05:35 <dirkx> Byte-ranges: is any of such foreseen to have semantic meaning in this context
12:06:04 <AndyS_scribe> Dirk: use of bytae ranges?
12:06:12 <AndyS_scribe> Bryan: will cover later
12:06:20 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 4 of 15
12:06:23 <DanC_AMS> slide 4 of 15 "W3C XPointer Framework 1.0"
12:08:00 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 5 : HTTP "Range" header
12:09:08 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 6 : RDF Data access w/ HTTP Range
12:10:07 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 7 : Pros and Cons
12:11:15 <DanC_AMS> how do clients choose which query language to use?
12:11:40 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 8 : Pros and Cons
12:11:57 <DaveB> are we on slide  8?
12:12:13 <kendall> that was a bit weird :>
12:12:36 <AndyS_scribe> Slide 9 : Browser Scenario
12:13:12 <dirkx> dirkx; outstanding questions about ease to shoehorn this into existing lib's.
12:13:40 <dirkx> dirkx: second question: /path/ element also possible if you accept ? query argument.
12:13:54 <Yoshio> Yoshio has joined #dawg
12:14:31 <AndyS_scribe> Next talk - questions queued
12:14:42 <thompsonbry2> URI for the next presentation?
12:14:51 <AndyS_scribe> Howard: Crash course on XQuery
12:15:02 <dirkx> dirkx: outstanding question with respect to the cachability of ranges in the light of the current byte-range situation.
12:15:06 <kendall> doesn't seem to be
12:16:06 <thompsonbry2> dirkx: I suggest in the backing material the use of the Vary header for caching.  Also, unlike byte ranges I would not suggest breaking transparency to combine "adjecent" sub-ranges.
12:16:40 <thompsonbry2> Caching is going to be very difficult in any case when the triple store state is evolving.
12:17:53 <DaveB> "there is always the promise technology will save us in another few seconds"
12:18:02 <AndyS_scribe> Waiting - Dirkx Q to Bryan :
12:18:29 <AndyS_scribe> How to get the range into header.
12:18:51 <AndyS_scribe> Issue: caching
12:19:55 <AndyS_scribe> With query string (foo?query) can be treated differently from foo/query (e.g. Google)
12:20:37 <SteveH> (( http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~swh/RexTalk ))
12:20:42 <kendall> i'd like to confirm the claim that GET /foo?bar often gets uncached.
12:20:51 <AndyS_scribe> e.g. Byte ranges may be executed as larger than than request for perf (e.g. media streams) 
12:21:28 <kendall> ok
12:21:29 <dirkx> http://www.foo.com/zoink?foo=bar versus http://www.foo.com/zoink/foo=bar
12:21:50 <kendall> the path encodings of the vars is cleaner, but -shrug-
12:22:13 <dirkx> versus http://www.foo.com/zoink/foo#rdf(123) | API -> versus http://www.foo.com/zoink/foo and RDF-Range: rdf(123) --> pass to libWWW
12:22:20 <AndyS_scribe> Query string has been used for non-idempotent operations
12:22:28 <thompsonbry2> We note one exception to this rule: since some applications have traditionally used GETs and HEADs with query
12:22:28 <thompsonbry2> URLs (those containing a “?” in the rel_path part) to perform operations with significant side effects, caches
12:22:28 <thompsonbry2> MUST NOT treat responses to such URIs as fresh unless the server provides an explicit expiration time. This
12:22:28 <thompsonbry2> specifically means that responses from HTTP/1.0 servers for such URIs SHOULD NOT be taken from a cache. See
12:22:28 <thompsonbry2> section 9.1.1 for related information.
12:22:39 <thompsonbry2> (Section 13.9 of HTTP/1.1)
12:22:40 <AndyS_scribe> Bryan quotes RFC
12:23:02 <DanC_AMS> [[[ 
12:23:03 <DanC_AMS>  We note one exception to this rule: since some applications have traditionally used GETs and HEADs with query URLs (those containing a "?" in the rel_path part) to perform operations with significant side effects, caches MUST NOT treat responses to such URIs as fresh unless the server provides an explicit expiration time.
12:23:08 <DanC_AMS> ]]] -- http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc2616/rfc2616-sec13.html#sec13.9
12:23:15 <DanC_AMS> eek!
12:23:20 <thompsonbry2> yeah
12:23:57 <dirkx> No worries -- is an break-out possible.
12:24:08 <DanC_AMS> ACTION DanC: inform the TAG of the conflict between the HTTP spec and TAG's recommendation on issue 7
12:24:37 <dirkx> Note that reality is a bit worse; i.e. heuristics which detect 'cgi-bin' etc are rife.
12:24:49 <AndyS_scribe> Howard now ready ...
12:24:50 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, remind us in 9 minutes that Howard's time is about up
12:24:50 <Zakim> ok, DanC_AMS
12:24:51 <kendall> icky
12:25:12 <AndyS_scribe> = XQuery: a whirlwind tour =
12:25:52 <dirkx> However with the same token http://www.foo.com/bar/rdf=(1234) have the reverse risk.
12:26:04 <AndyS_scribe> There are 7 node types in XML : book to Janne
12:26:33 <DanC_AMS> (XQuery is actually *not* functional, I learned in an exchange witht the editors via xquery-comments@w3.org)
12:27:23 <DanC_AMS> Howard's presentation materials: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004AprJun/0180.html
12:27:32 <dirkx> http://www.w3.org/mid/20040423051901.R54360@skutsje.san.webweaving.org
12:28:41 <DanC_AMS> Howard: everything is a sequence; 1 is actually a singleton sequence
12:28:53 <AndyS_scribe> s/=> 42/=> 24/
12:29:09 <AndyS_scribe> in example "2", 3+1
12:32:20 <AndyS_scribe> Syntactical can construct strange things
12:33:09 <AndyS_scribe> <foo><bar/></foo>/bar evals to <bar/>
12:33:27 <AndyS_scribe> That was "ripley query 2"
12:33:50 <Zakim> DanC_AMS, you asked to be reminded at this time that Howard's time is about up
12:36:56 <AndyS_scribe> DB people want to statically analyse the query
12:37:12 <thompsonbry2> * That's why I wanted to start with a critique of XQuery ;)
12:39:45 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, remind us in 9 minutes that Rob's time is about up
12:39:45 <Zakim> ok, DanC_AMS
12:40:23 <DanC_AMS> Rob: XQuery is a pretty simple functional langauge. the complication comes from the XPath navigation, axes, and such
12:40:33 <AndyS_scribe> = Rob Shaerer: Using XQuery for RDF: costs and benefits of one approach =
12:40:59 <AndyS_scribe> Good to use FLWOR for SQL databases
12:41:10 <AndyS_scribe> Tried using XPath but moved to ...
12:41:10 <DaveB> FLWOR = For, Let, Where, Order by, Return.
12:41:40 <DanC_AMS> RobS: we started using XPath, but that turned out to be hard/complicated, so we went a different way...
12:41:48 <AndyS_scribe> :related(subj, obj, pred, model) [syntax not exact]
12:42:07 <AndyS_scribe> q+ to talk about Robie's work
12:42:36 <AndyS_scribe> :individuals, :properties from other API calls
12:43:26 <kendall> doesn't appear to be
12:43:35 <AndyS_scribe> Results are formatted by XQUery inc. as RDF/XML
12:43:42 <kendall> he's cat'ing files to STDOUT in linux xterm. Old Skool!!
12:44:23 <AndyS_scribe> return is sequence in XQUery that is concat
12:45:21 <DanC_AMS> "satisfies" is part of XQuery syntax?
12:46:28 <DanC_AMS> RobS shows query4, which demonstrates disjunction
12:46:45 <AndyS_scribe> disjunction by "or" in XQuery with base access into RDF 
12:47:15 <AndyS_scribe> q+ to ask about efficient implementation issues
12:47:42 <DanC_AMS> (indeed, http://www.w3.org/TR/xquery/ shows "satisfies" syntax. current draft: 12 nov http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-xquery-20031112/)
12:48:39 <AndyS_scribe> NI want to query OWL which is why model is passed to :related
12:48:45 <Zakim> DanC_AMS, you asked to be reminded at this time that Rob's time is about up
12:49:28 <AndyS_scribe> ni:models() => ni:rdfModels  -- all interpretations of ontology
12:49:46 <DanC_AMS> hmm... ni:models() ... brain cramp.
12:50:44 <AndyS_scribe> "true" defn as true in every interpretation
12:51:29 <AndyS_scribe> Points about "some Model" and "every Model"
12:52:11 <Yoshio> +1
12:53:06 <Yoshio> * cause the whole world is not certain or we can't konw everything :)
12:53:32 <DanC_AMS> quite, but how is that relevant to this work?
12:55:06 <AndyS_scribe> Summary: these operators can be used to build a query system (RobS to email presented queries)
12:55:18 <thompsonbry2> Is it true in all "models" that someone did something? If this is reasoning in multiple worlds, then you are basically asking if there is any world (that I can conceive of) in which something is not true. So, you are testing assumptions. If you have an assumption, then you have uncertainty.
12:55:38 <thompsonbry2> In general, crisp logics are not the best for reasoning about uncertainty.
12:55:47 <Yoshio>  we sometimes want the answer without specifying the possible world, don't we?
12:56:17 <Yoshio> marginalized possible world could have uncertainty.
12:56:30 <thompsonbry2> Sure.  I am just saying that if you are trying to reason about uncertainty then using crisp logics is not the best course.
12:56:38 <AndyS_scribe> Impl: canonicalise RDF and implement ni:related
12:57:27 <AndyS_scribe> Jos: is canonical RDF solved?
12:57:46 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: canonical means a std rep (not ordering etc)
12:58:00 <DanC_AMS> ack andy
12:58:00 <Zakim> AndyS_scribe, you wanted to talk about Robie's work and to ask about efficient implementation issues
12:58:48 <kendall> thom: andy s asking about relation to jonathan robie's work 'syntatic web' from a few years ago
12:58:55 <AndyS_scribe> q/andyS: Rel. to syntactic web (Robie)
12:59:06 <DanC_AMS> cf The Syntactic Web
12:59:06 <DanC_AMS> Syntax and Semantics on the Web
12:59:06 <DanC_AMS> Jonathan Robie 
12:59:09 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: don't know    Eric: its similiar
12:59:11 <DanC_AMS> -> http://www.idealliance.org/papers/xml2001/papers/html/03-01-04.html
12:59:39 <AndyS_scribe> Rob; users not interested in iterating over triples
13:00:11 <AndyS_scribe> ... they think of the assertions: not graph is a list of edges to be iterated over
13:00:17 <AndyS_scribe> node centric
13:01:01 <AndyS_scribe> DanC; similar but non trivial diffs
13:02:05 <AndyS_scribe> Current impl: some optimisations : may combine with existing Xquery engine
13:03:24 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: users do not think in terms of a graph (do not like current RDF APIs)
13:03:57 <Yoshio> * then how?
13:04:20 <AndyS_scribe> User thinks in nodes and relationships (OWLish view?)
13:04:31 <thompsonbry2> Some users just want know when the milk in the fridge is running out or going bad.
13:05:17 <Yoshio> What's the difference between graphs and nodes and relationships?
13:05:36 <thompsonbry2> I.e., this is an issue of application encapsulation levels.  RobS is thinking developers = users, right?  Just like an SQL developer.
13:05:50 <kendall> yep
13:05:55 <Yoshio> I see.
13:05:55 <AndyS_scribe> Jos: can arcs be variables?
13:06:22 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: had list all properties : not used and removed
13:06:47 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: could be done but no user has asked for it.
13:09:28 <DanC_AMS> (re XQUery being functiona, here's a pointer in to the exchange I had with the editors http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-query-comments/2001May/0009.html )
13:10:15 <thompsonbry2> Who are these people who know X-Query?  
13:10:35 <DanC_AMS> well, there are 1500 last call comments. So somebody's reading the spec pretty carefully.
13:10:37 <kendall> it's a good question; i guess many of them are NI clients.
13:10:59 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: have one QL everyone knows and has invested in
13:12:17 <thompsonbry2> Is this the same population?  XQuery is not a simple thing.  And doing inference over XQuery seems hard.  I have done a lot of fancy things with SQL, but the scalability always breaks down and you need to use a different processing model eventually.
13:13:22 <DanC_AMS> DanC: ni:models() has an implicit background document? RobS: yes, that's the norm in XQuery
13:13:24 <Yoshio> Is tree structure suited/natural to express relationships?
13:14:34 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: could have XML doc with each RDF model as subnodes but need to optimise in practice
13:14:40 <DanC_AMS> thompsonbry2, why is XPointer relevant to the range thing? it's just a fragid syntax for RDF/XML, no? Where does XPointer come in?
13:16:50 <thompsonbry2> Just the framework: specifies encoding for URI, processing model (left-to-right, first match is returned), extensible - people can define their own query languages.  You loose some of that if you drop the XPointer framework and just map the RDF query onto the Range header, e.g., "Range: rdf=....".
13:17:17 <thompsonbry2> Broader context, is I was thinking about sub-resource addressing as a general problem and RDF as a specific use case.
13:18:22 <thompsonbry2> btw - I am NOT suggesting the use of the xpointer() scheme.  I think a lot of people conflate the xpointer() addressing scheme (which is very complex and did not make it to Rec) with the XPointer Framework.
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13:18:47 <DanC_AMS> "encoding for URI"? you mean how to URI-escape a string? you don't need XPointer for that, do you?
13:19:15 <DanC_AMS> the left-to-right stuff premiered in XPointer. I can see that.
13:20:06 <thompsonbry2> No.  But it does specify how to do it (encoding) in a way that supports the namespace processing context and left-to-right processing order.  The XPointer Framework is really dirt simple.
13:20:28 <AndyS_scribe> disucssion on XQuery's role (which scribe lost) 
13:20:49 <AndyS_scribe> This appraoch works well with rest of XML tool chain
13:21:05 <DanC_AMS> ok, so the use of the XPointer framework has nothing to do with XML elements/attributes and everything to do with fragment syntax stuff, thompsonbry2?
13:21:44 <thompsonbry2> Yes.  I would think that an RDF query language would be grounded in the RDF model, not the syntax.  Should have made that point in the presentation.
13:22:00 <DanC_AMS> maybe you did; maybe I just needed to hear it twice ;-)
13:22:27 <kendall> Other XML-based media types are also encouraged to use this framework in defining their own fragment identifier languages.
13:22:39 <Zakim> -Leiden
13:22:40 <thompsonbry2> Only indirectly - by the choice of the query language notation in the example.
13:22:54 <thompsonbry2> Whoops!  Leiden just dropped the telcon.
13:23:12 <ericP> bryan, just a sec...
13:23:26 <kendall> dirk working on it
13:23:27 <thompsonbry2> Re: Kendall, yes.
13:23:31 <ericP> or top network engineers are on the case
13:23:54 <AndyS_scribe> Rob: it is called "Rex" - RDF extensions for XQuery
13:25:10 <Zakim> +??P1
13:25:16 <DanC_AMS> Zakim ??P1 is Leiden
13:25:28 <ericP> Zakim, ??P1 is Leiden
13:25:28 <Zakim> +Leiden; got it
13:25:33 <Yoshio> *rex tremendae majestatis
13:25:59 <thompsonbry2> And cannons are the last argument of kings.
13:26:02 <DanC_AMS> "tremendae majestatis" translate pls?
13:27:02 <AndyS_scribe> Jos: is the query over the RDF closure?
13:27:22 <thompsonbry2> ~ great majesty ~ I think
13:27:26 <kendall> it's from the requiem
13:27:31 <kendall> er, requiem mass
13:27:32 <ericP> http://neuro.ohbi.net/music/ra/mozart/req05.php
13:28:59 <DanC_AMS> (Break thru 3:35 pm AMS time)
13:29:03 <DanC_AMS> er... 3:45
13:29:05 <Zakim> -Leiden
13:29:10 <Zakim> -BryanT
13:29:11 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()8:00AM has ended
13:29:12 <Zakim> Attendees were BryanT, DanC, Alberto, Leiden
13:29:22 <DanC_AMS> Brian, do you want to join the next sessino?
13:31:59 <eikeon> eikeon has joined #dawg
13:32:15 <kendall> hi dan
13:34:53 <thompsonbry2> Dan, I can.  I can't really hear the discussion over the phone though.  Do you think
13:35:31 <thompsonbry2> that we will return to the XPointer+Range thing in the general discussion?  If so, then I can rejoin in 20min or so.
13:41:46 <Yoshio> At the end of the day, I'm not sure how we can treat the non-tree structures within the XML representations...
13:44:01 <thompsonbry2> Yoshio, I agree.  Not the right layer.  XML should be serialization and interchange, not the core processing language model.
13:45:40 <Yoshio> Yes, although XQuery has many nice features... 
13:53:12 <thompsonbry2> kendall, do you have a URI for your presentation?
13:53:39 <kendall> nope, i'm not giving it; i spent last night working on the UC document instead. (well, last night and a large part of this morning)
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13:54:20 <janne_scribe> http://www.asemantics.com/presos/dawg2004-leiden/
13:54:50 <janne_scribe> RDQL: an implementation experience (just one?)
13:55:31 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, remind us in 9 minutes to move on or something
13:55:31 <Zakim> ok, DanC_AMS
13:55:41 <DanC_AMS> (ooh... ah... keynote transitions)
13:55:42 <janne_scribe> slide 2: what is RDQL
13:56:30 <janne_scribe> RDFQL has SQL like syntax for querying RDF
13:56:43 <janne_scribe> s/RDFQL/RDQL/
13:56:59 <janne_scribe> slide 3: simple enough
13:57:48 <janne_scribe> SFWAU structure
13:57:54 <janne_scribe> slide 4: rdql example
13:58:57 <janne_scribe> FROM clause fetches the model from the given URL
13:59:01 <janne_scribe> slide 4: an implementation
13:59:05 <janne_scribe> slide 5 that is
13:59:38 <janne_scribe> http://rdfstore.sourceforge.net
13:59:44 <janne_scribe> slide 6: needed extensions
14:00:02 <thompsonbry2> q+ To ask, what about closure for the result sets (e.g., as RDF/XML)?
14:00:22 <janne_scribe> slide 7: some issues
14:01:14 <janne_scribe> question marks give headache as they are placeholders in ODBC/JDBC context
14:02:05 <janne_scribe> working on evaluation algorithms by improving indexes
14:02:55 <janne_scribe> indexes are built using known query patterns
14:03:32 <janne_scribe> current merging does not consider bNodes correctly
14:04:31 <Zakim> DanC_AMS, you asked to be reminded at this time to move on or something
14:04:35 <janne_scribe> slide 8: an abuse case
14:06:06 <janne_scribe> DaveB: what are the percents?
14:06:50 <janne_scribe> SQL/Oracle type operator for substring matching
14:07:23 <Yoshio> q+ to ask the role of USING part, can it be used to pose the premises?
14:07:49 <janne_scribe> dirk: jdbc/odbc stack works nicely with current syntax
14:08:17 <AndyS> Yoshio - no: USING is for namespace/prefix declarations
14:08:45 <Yoshio> oh... 
14:08:50 <thompsonbry2> but that would be a nice feature -- is somethign true if you assume x, y, z.
14:09:14 <janne_scribe> EricP: question about multiple FROM sections... (didn't get the end of the question)
14:09:34 <AndyS> Would need transactions probably
14:09:37 <janne_scribe> slide 9: our DAWG wishlist
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14:10:16 <janne_scribe> dirk: want to leverage existing infrastructure with rdql
14:10:19 <DanC_AMS> Zakim, ??P24 is Leiden
14:10:19 <Zakim> +Leiden; got it
14:11:00 <ericP> ericP's question: can you enumerate which triples you wish to match at which source?
14:11:03 <ericP> AndyS: yes. we were thinking of something like FROM...FOR...FROM...FOR.
14:11:51 <janne_scribe> testing charter with the bottom line (insert, update, delete)
14:12:35 <janne_scribe> RobS: summarization functions like count()?
14:12:42 <janne_scribe> alberto: don't have it, would be nice
14:13:40 <janne_scribe> steveh: do variables need be prefixed?
14:14:05 <janne_scribe> AndyS: QNames are ok
14:14:13 <thompsonbry2> q?
14:14:50 <janne_scribe> RobS: only simple OR -> can you do general disjunction?
14:14:59 <janne_scribe> Alberto: current implementation due to efficiency
14:15:35 <janne_scribe> haven't faced the need quite yet
14:15:55 <ericP> ack thompsonbry
14:15:55 <Zakim> thompsonbry, you wanted to ask, what about closure for the result sets (e.g., as RDF/XML)?
14:16:32 <janne_scribe> thompsonb: no serialization to rdf/xml in the select clause
14:17:36 <AndyS> c.f. SeRQL's CONSTRUCT (instead of SELECT) is an RDF template: substitute in variables to patterns
14:17:59 <DaveB> see http://www.openrdf.org/doc/users/ch05.html for SeRQL
14:18:00 <DanC_AMS> Alberto: our output generally goes thru XSLT. [?]
14:18:17 <ericP> AlbertoR: we return all the solutions in regular-ized RDF and that goes through an XSLT
14:18:19 <DanC_AMS> ... we use the result of the query as an XML source.
14:18:31 <DanC_AMS> (did he say the solutions become RDF/XML?)
14:18:32 <ericP> ack Yoshio
14:18:32 <Zakim> Yoshio, you wanted to ask the role of USING part, can it be used to pose the premises?
14:18:33 <thompsonbry2> got it.
14:18:37 <janne_scribe> The result set is managed as a normalized rdf/xml via xslt
14:18:54 <Yoshio> what if we specify a (URI for ) RDF graph to use as premises in the USING part?
14:19:58 <janne_scribe> rdql = grep for rdf graphs - no premises for now
14:20:30 <DaveB> DaveB will be showing http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/people/cmdjb/talks/200404-dawg-ams/
14:21:38 <janne_scribe> jdr: can you have multiple FROMs
14:21:56 <janne_scribe> alberto: yes you can, the semantics should be clarified
14:23:14 <janne_scribe> AndyS: you could mimic premises by having premises at FROM clause 1 and model in FROM clause 2
14:23:37 <janne_scribe> RobS: is this extensible to OWL/rules world?
14:24:07 <janne_scribe> AndyS: focus on runtime evaluation where inference is supported via virtual triples
14:24:18 <thompsonbry2> Then what about creating a data source to contain those premises?  CREATE <source> FROM <query> (or INSERT ... INTO <source>)
14:25:06 <janne_scribe> DaveB starting on impl. experience
14:25:31 <janne_scribe> slied 1
14:27:08 <DanC_AMS> (what's the difference between Redland and Raptor?)
14:27:16 <janne_scribe> slide 2
14:27:41 <janne_scribe> easy/medium/hard things described
14:28:52 <janne_scribe> slide 3
14:30:26 <janne_scribe> demo!
14:30:44 <janne_scribe> a very quick demo
14:31:33 <thompsonbry2> q+ to ask about evolution of api / QL to resource centric
14:31:46 <janne_scribe> PatH not available for DQL talk
14:31:52 <ericP> ack thompsonbry
14:31:52 <Zakim> thompsonbry, you wanted to ask about evolution of api / QL to resource centric
14:32:02 <DanC_AMS> (thanks EricP for chairing help)
14:32:21 <janne_scribe> what does resource centric mean?
14:32:50 <janne_scribe> triple store = uri (= resource centric)
14:33:01 <DanC_AMS> agenda + wrap-up
14:34:29 <janne_scribe> EricP? anything else before wrap-up?
14:36:13 <thompsonbry2> bye
14:36:16 <DanC_AMS> ciao, thompsonbry2
14:36:18 <DaveB> bye bryan
14:36:22 <alberto> bye
14:36:30 <Zakim> -BryanT
14:37:18 <Yoshio> Tot ziens!
14:38:18 <DanC_AMS> (jann's action to motivate.... WITHDRAWN)
14:39:08 <janne_scribe> I will keep the action about "not being able to use variables to span a correct graph" for a while (before I give up)
14:39:12 <Yoshio> http://www.w3.org/2004/04/21-fuku/addendum1.html
14:39:58 <alberto> Yoshio: nice!
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14:41:37 <Zakim> -Leiden
14:41:38 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()8:00AM has ended
14:41:39 <Zakim> Attendees were BryanT, Leiden
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