17:59:11 RRSAgent has joined #swbp 17:59:18 Zakim has joined #swbp 17:59:22 zakim, this will be swbpd 17:59:22 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, Ralph 17:59:24 zakim, this will be swbp 17:59:24 ok, Ralph; I see SW_BPD()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute 17:59:56 Meeting: SemWeb Best Practices and Deployment WG 18:00:39 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0209.html agenda 18:00:41 hi ralph, before i forget, could you add Frank.Nack@cwi.nl to the mailing list? thanks 18:00:51 sure 18:00:54 Tbaker has joined #swbp 18:01:27 jjc has joined #swbp 18:02:00 zakim, this is sw_bpd 18:02:02 ok, Ralph; that matches SW_BPD()1:00PM 18:02:09 zakim, who's on the call? 18:02:16 On the phone I see Ivan, ??P3, [UMD], Guus_Schreiber, ??P2, +33.4.92.94.aaaa, ??P8, Ralph 18:02:40 +DanBri 18:02:46 zakim, danbri is temporarily Bristol 18:02:48 +Jeremy 18:02:54 +Pat_Hayes 18:02:54 Zakim, who's on the call 18:03:00 +Bristol; got it 18:03:00 zakim, ??p2 Marco 18:03:01 zakim, bristol holds danbri 18:03:02 I don't understand 'who's on the call', jjc 18:03:04 I don't understand '??p2 Marco', Guus 18:03:05 Zakim, who's on the call? 18:03:06 +danbri; got it 18:03:08 On the phone I see Ivan, ??P3, [UMD], Guus_Schreiber, ??P2, +33.4.92.94.aaaa, ??P8, Ralph, Bristol, Jeremy (muted), Pat_Hayes 18:03:10 zakim, bristol holds libby 18:03:15 Bristol has danbri 18:03:17 bwm has joined #swbp 18:03:19 +libby; got it 18:03:23 zakim ??p2 is Marco 18:03:33 Zakim, Jeremy is jjc 18:03:33 +jjc; got it 18:03:37 zakim, ??p2 is probably Marco 18:03:39 +Marco?; got it 18:03:42 +??P18 18:03:46 Natasha has joined #swbp 18:03:52 Frank added, Jacco 18:03:58 thanks! 18:04:02 zakim, ??p18 is Natasha 18:04:04 zakim, ??p18 18:04:04 +Natasha; got it 18:04:07 I don't understand '??p18', Guus 18:04:32 +Brian_McBride 18:05:20 +Alistair Miles 18:05:45 zakim, Ivan is Jacco 18:05:45 +Jacco; got it 18:05:51 zakim, umd has Aditya 18:05:51 sorry, Ralph, I do not recognize a party named 'umd' 18:06:01 zakim, [umd] has Aditya 18:06:01 +Aditya; got it 18:06:37 + +1.650.723.aabb 18:06:51 zakim, aabb is Deb 18:06:51 +Deb; got it 18:07:35 Zakim doesn't see me? 18:07:36 zakim, ??p8 is Tom_Baker 18:07:36 +Tom_Baker; got it 18:08:35 danbri - i just looked at the irc - i do not know how to "share the op powers" 18:08:42 Hi libby! 18:08:44 if you tell me what to type i will type it 18:08:47 +JosD 18:09:10 bwm_ has joined #swbp 18:09:19 JosD has joined #swbp 18:09:23 zakim, marco is really Alistair 18:09:23 +Alistair; got it 18:09:31 I posted an Introduction 20 minutes ago 18:09:46 zakim, mute bristol 18:09:46 Bristol should now be muted 18:09:48 +Jen_Golbeck 18:09:50 zakim, +33.4.92.94.aaaa is Marco 18:09:50 +Marco; got it 18:10:28 Scribe: Ralph 18:10:58 Ralph has changed the topic to: SWBPD 1-April Telecon agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0209.html 18:11:07 Regrets: Jim H, Jeremy, Bernard 18:11:22 (not regrets from me) 18:11:31 unregrets Jeremy, sorry 18:11:48 PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the Cannes kickoff ftf: 18:11:48 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0100.html 18:12:01 zakim, unmute danbri 18:12:01 sorry, danbri, I do not see a party named 'danbri' 18:12:04 zakim, unmute bristol 18:12:04 Bristol should no longer be muted 18:12:11 Jeremy: action from DanBri was completed 18:12:25 (it was consultation of the SW CG re Note vs WD) 18:12:55 ACTION DanBri ask SemWeb CG about constraints and advice re WD, Note, etc. 18:12:58 -- completed 18:13:12 RESOLVED: minutes accepted with correction 18:14:01 Topic: Admin 18:14:25 PROPOSED date & time for next telecon 15 April 1400 UTC 18:14:51 Pat: this time clashes with Data Access WG 18:15:07 golbeck has joined #swbp 18:15:41 Jeremy: US West coast is under-represented on the call now 18:15:58 ocorcho has joined #swbp 18:15:59 No - japan is underrepresented 18:16:42 s/US West coast/Japan/ 18:17:36 WITHDRAWN proposal for 1400 UTC on 15 April 18:18:38 PROPOSED date & time for next telecon 15 April 1400 UTC 18:19:02 ... and Ralph will get working on his action to get straw poll done 18:19:24 RESOLVED date & time for next telecon 15 April 1400 UTC 18:19:46 ACTION Ralph talk with Guus and create a straw poll form for meeting times 18:19:51 continued; to be done in next 7 days 18:20:00 ACTION Guus to propose a format for TF description 18:20:07 completed; on today's agenda 18:20:25 ACTION JimH write description of WorldView TF 18:20:35 completed 18:20:45 ACTION ChrisW write description of OPEN TF 18:20:47 continued 18:20:54 ACTION aldo describe Wordnet TF 18:20:55 completed 18:20:59 ACTION danbri get rdf-thes contacts from Guus 18:21:00 completed 18:21:10 action to *get* contacts from Guus is not complete if Guus has not responded 18:21:11 (re RDF thes TF: I started a page http://www.w3.org/2004/03/thes-tf/mission , working on it...) 18:21:15 ACTION aldo e-mail WordNet update to mailing list 18:21:26 completed 18:21:30 ACTION guus read bernard's e-mail with draft TMAP msg 18:21:31 continued 18:21:36 ACTION guus to finalize TMAP e-mail, notify cg, and send out msg 18:21:44 continued 18:22:31 CG asked that the message include explicit language that this was not yet a formal request for liaison 18:24:07 Jeremy: is it possible to have a representative from the ISO TC on our Task Force without it being a formal liaison? 18:24:41 Zakim, mute jjc 18:24:43 Ralph: my opinion is that yes, it is possible for the Task Force to include ISO TC members without it being a formal liaison 18:24:43 jjc should now be muted 18:25:08 ACTION danC to send mail requesting feedback on RDF/XHTML & GRDDL to both lists 18:25:09 completed 18:25:16 ACTION DanBri investigate publication of Turtle as SWIG note 18:25:17 continued 18:25:21 ACTION ChrisW present his time ontology in the next telecon 18:25:23 continued 18:25:58 Guus: IBM has charter questions, it will take some time for Chris to formally be a participant 18:25:59 aldoG has joined #Swbp 18:26:05 ACTION DanBri ask SemWeb CG about constraints and advice re WD, Note, etc. 18:26:07 completed 18:26:26 Topic: Task Force Template 18:26:46 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0208.html draft task-force template [Guus 2004-03-31] 18:27:18 DanBri: I have already started to wrap this in HTML for the WordNet TF 18:27:35 (it looks good btw, thanks) 18:27:39 RESOLVED: template accepted 18:27:54 Topic: Application and Demo TF 18:28:11 well done Dan 18:28:21 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0133.html On a possible role for the applications and demos task force [Brian, 2004-03-25] 18:28:33 Brian: my objective was to start some discussion 18:29:01 ... hoped this TF might act like previous Test Cases task forces 18:29:48 Jos: test cases have my support 18:30:45 DeborahM has joined #swbp 18:31:05 Guus: reaction from Knowledge Web perspective? 18:31:11 Marco: too early to say 18:32:11 ... need a more clear definition before starting work; there are many topics from which to select 18:33:05 Libby: I support the idea of showing code fragments 18:33:46 Guus: would FOAF fit here? 18:33:50 Libby: yes, possibly 18:34:08 pat makes a good point 18:34:15 Pat: the analogy with code is misleading; code does what it does, whereas ontologies do more 18:34:24 The Semantic Web should not be used for nuclear power stations ??? 18:34:40 q+ to give an example (rss code snippet) http://www.hpl.hp.com/personal/bwm/rdf/jena/rssinjena.htm was very handy 18:35:14 Brian: important to have other task forces should sign up to provide illustrations 18:35:51 Brian: while I floated the idea, I'm not yet signing up to coordinate the TF 18:35:56 q- 18:36:31 Zakim, unmute jjc 18:36:31 jjc should no longer be muted 18:36:51 David: also support this, but also will have to limit my participation 18:37:16 Jeremy: I am happy to sign up for XML Schema TF 18:37:41 Zakim, mute jjc 18:37:41 jjc should now be muted 18:37:42 Guus: I expect to sign up for Porting TF 18:38:06 Libby: I am willing will to help coordinate ADTF for a while 18:39:05 Brian: willing to help Libby flesh out a proposal 18:40:14 zakim, Bristol also holds DanBri 18:40:14 +DanBri; got it 18:40:25 q+ to ask be excused 18:40:32 Topic: World TF 18:40:51 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0143.html "World" TF description (informal) [JimH, 2004-03-25] 18:41:11 Guus: first note is intended to be more business cases 18:41:23 ... second note is intended to help those who are confused in where to start 18:42:28 Pat: I expect to be involved in this task force 18:43:10 ... I worry that the first note might have too much "drum beating" and not enough "practice"; that it might turn into an advertisement 18:43:22 Guus: expect the document to be short; a maximum of 5 pages 18:44:09 Mike: read Jim's summary, looks OK to me 18:44:20 Zakim, unmute jjc 18:44:20 jjc should no longer be muted 18:44:22 Deb: I also volunteered to Jim that I would help on this 18:44:32 DavidN: I would especially like to help with the first document 18:45:19 Pat: might be good to have more representation from others in the WG who have different views 18:45:38 Jeremy: document 2 needs participation from the DL community 18:46:21 Mike: I think I can represent the business perspective 18:46:32 Deb: I consult with some startup companies and can represent the startup perspective 18:47:10 David: we know something about the business perspective also 18:48:03 Jos: happy to review, but won't be able to participate in this task force 18:48:15 Jeremy: will also review 18:50:00 Marco: France Telecom would like feedback 18:50:25 ... we are willing to try out a draft document within FT 18:51:20 Topic: WordNet Task Force 18:51:41 -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0114.html WordNet Task Force - work outline [Also 2004-03-23] 18:52:08 Guus: see Aldo's recent msg http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Apr/0017.html 18:52:23 ... Aldo presents an important option 18:52:42 ... 2 choices of representation 18:53:07 ... (1) take the principal representation as-is and create an RDF Schema for it, without adding features 18:53:35 ... (2) do a translation and introduce some RDF constructs 18:53:45 Above all, (1) does not try to "interpret" the original Wordnet schema in terms of ontologies 18:53:45 DanBri: my translation only took the nouns 18:54:09 ... this allows markup that looks nice 18:54:25 Zakim, mute jjc 18:54:25 jjc should now be muted 18:54:34 (2) tries a mapping from the original schema to ontology data types (classes, individuals, properties, subClass, etc.) 18:54:52 Guus: my personal opinion is that in principal if there is a representation we should translate it as literally as possible and leave interpretation to the user 18:54:57 +1 to guus 18:55:06 Pat: this issue is broader than just WordNet 18:55:22 I agree with Pat: it applies also to thesauri 18:55:23 q+ to mention language in the new draft [THES] tf 18:55:37 q- 18:55:49 Pat: agree with a translation that takes everything as an individual and makes the fewest assumptions 18:56:19 q+ 18:56:32 danbri, you wanted to mention language in the new draft [THES] tf 18:56:39 the problem with (1) is that we actually renounce to derive useful ontologies from wordnets and thesauri, which is the current trend of research in both academic and industrial/organization contexts 18:57:08 Libby: we followed the simple approach in calendaring 18:58:10 Ralph: agree with starting simple 18:58:20 ... can we get participation from Princeton? 18:58:23 (2) is not necessarily "complex". For instance, Dan Brickley has ported (a part of) WordNet using (2) 18:58:39 Zakim, unmute jjc 18:58:39 jjc should no longer be muted 18:58:41 ACTION: Guus ask Aldo if someone from Princeton is willing to participate 18:58:43 From http://www.w3.org/2004/03/thes-tf/mission (just drafted), "Document strategies for representing Thesaurus-like content using RDF/OWL --- Produce guidelines for transforming an existing thesaurus (or classification system, or similar concept-based taxonomy) into an RDF/OWL representation. Guidelines should describe strategies for converting into an RDF representation of thesaurus-like structures, as well as strategies for re-describing in RDF/OWL the conten 18:58:43 t originally conveyed in the Thesaurus." 18:58:55 q? 18:58:57 Pat: others have done major work on aligning Cyc with WordNet too 18:59:16 Christiane Fellbaum is interested in following the work, but she cannot ensure a lot of attention 18:59:28 [Jeremy reads Aldo's irc comment to the telecon] 18:59:53 Guus: I don't agree with Aldo's "the problem with (1)..." -- these can be added later 19:00:07 CYC2WN, as well as Sensus, SUMO2WN and DOLCE2WN (OntoWordNet), follow approach (2) 19:00:18 Pat: re Aldo's (2), there are tradeoffs 19:00:58 In fact in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004Apr/0017.html I propose to deliver (1), which is almost ready, and then move to (2) 19:01:18 Jeremy: it is plausible to do this in two phases 19:01:45 aditya has joined #swbp 19:02:05 Guus: re Christiane Fellbaum; if she could nod agreement that would be nice 19:02:26 Tbaker has joined #swbp 19:02:30 ... and even make the TF work part of their distribution 19:02:33 Yes, I agreed with Jeremy (I have even proposed 3 phases, since (2) can be done in a 'simple', or in an "enriched" mode) 19:03:08 q+ re versioning experience 19:03:14 Brian: a key test of commitment from the WordNet folk is maintenance as WordNet changes 19:03:15 q+ to feedback re versioning experience 19:03:15 Zakim, mute jjc 19:03:18 jjc should now be muted 19:03:29 Guus: this was part of my thoughts; make it part of their distribution 19:04:00 -Brian_McBride 19:04:02 bwm_ has left #swbp 19:04:11 Zakim, unmute jjc 19:04:11 jjc should no longer be muted 19:04:44 Versioning is a major issue for every ontology production lifecycle ... we should also think on procedures to easily port new versions of wordnets and thesauri. Indeed, this issue has been very relevant in the fishery ontology project with UN-FAO ... 19:05:13 [the class-based approach has merit where you want to mix wordnet w/ other vocab, eg ...] 19:05:15 Jeremy: I don't hear any dissent on the first (simple) proposal 19:05:35 q? 19:05:38 ACTION: Guus talk with Aldo about WordNet and produce a short-term plan for option 1 19:05:39 I will include the proposal to make the OWL port part of the distribution in the open letter to WN developers, also mentioning the alternatives 19:05:41 danbri, you wanted to feedback re versioning experience 19:06:21 DanBri: We made a namespace for WordNet version 1.6; it would be simple to make another namespace for subsequent versions 19:06:22 Re: ACTION, OK with me 19:06:43 DanBri: my original notion was to conflate all the versions in one namespace, but it seems that won't fly 19:06:50 Zakim, mute jjc 19:06:50 jjc should now be muted 19:07:16 DanBri: [would like to see] guidelines for converting thesaurii to RDF structures 19:07:32 Only one namespace could be unacceptable for lexicographic people 19:07:37 DanBri: WordNet could be examples in such a note 19:08:14 Guus: most of the translations that have been done are not complete. I propose that any translation we do should be complete 19:08:29 ... e.g. only noun trees and only a few relationships 19:08:36 ... there are about 20 relationships 19:08:39 Yes, Dan, (2) is a way of arriving to a common methodology to port terminological resources to SW 19:08:55 Guus: we should do all the relationships under option 1 19:08:59 Zakim, unmute jjc 19:08:59 jjc should no longer be muted 19:09:27 Jeremy: that should be a goal, but don't overconstrain those doing the work in the TF 19:09:28 Zakim, mute jjc 19:09:28 jjc should now be muted 19:09:33 Guus: ok, a goal -- not a requirement 19:09:39 Topic: OPEN TF 19:09:51 MikeU: lots of discussion in the past few weeks 19:10:00 In (1) it is very easy to do all the relationships. In (2), we'll need to distinguish among rels holding classes, individuals, words 19:10:21 MikeU: agreements have been reached on metaclasses, when to use classes as instances 19:10:38 ... mixing part-of and subclass relationship had some discussion also 19:10:52 [aldoG, did you see the SKOS vocab aliman worked on? do you think that could be extended for use in describing w/net?] 19:11:08 ... consensus emerging to avoid judgemental calls and take specific issues, identify representation/modelling choices 19:11:20 ... explain consequences of the choices, without saying "bad" or "good" 19:11:52 ... in cases where we can agree that an outcome is probably a desirable one or not a desirable one we can say so 19:12:25 [yes, Dan, I heard about SKOS, I'll go through it asap] 19:12:33 MikeU:... next steps: agree to pick a single thing to try the non-judgemental approach 19:12:42 ... pick a candidate for a best practice 19:12:58 ... move forward on some simple low-hanging frui 19:13:08 s/fri/fruit/ 19:14:15 Guus: would be good if this TF can produce a short note from a use case perspective 19:14:31 MikeU: Deb wrote a paper a few years ago 19:14:43 Deb: section called "tricks of the trade" 19:14:52 ... when do you model something as a concept or as an individual 19:14:57 ... when to use classes as instances 19:15:02 ... Classic 19:15:31 ... pointed out positive and negative implications of some choices 19:15:57 ... will propose a format for interchange; will need several iterations 19:16:12 q+ to talk about early publication as note 19:16:19 ... will look over Living With Classic paper to see what can be lifted 19:16:31 ... not likely to attempt metaclasses to start 19:17:04 Natasha: classes for DC:Subject have been discussed -- this is actually a technical problem 19:17:20 ... propose to describe tradeoffs rather than say 'good' vs 'bad' 19:17:29 Deb: this doesn't sound like a short one to me 19:18:13 Guus: anyone who has tried to combine Dublin Core and OWL has been faced with this problem 19:18:13 maybe we could also try to give some idea of alternative general choices concerning categories of content, like my LAB has done in the EU WonderWeb project http://wonderweb.semanticweb.org, specially (public) deliverable 18 19:18:26 Guus: support this (Dublin Core) topic as a note 19:18:55 MikeU: we agree it is useful, concern about how long it might take 19:19:29 Natasha: do 2 topics, one simple 19:19:56 deb: sounds like the GOF design pattern template ... 19:19:58 Deb: a template for explaining tradeoffs 19:20:06 obviously, alternatives of content should be given even within the Living with Classic case, or wrt Dublin Core, anyway very simple cases 19:20:35 Deb: a format that would help point out consensus quickly will help 19:21:18 Mike: useful for all TFs to look beneath the surface of email and notice that there often is a kernel of agreement 19:21:50 ACTION: Natasha look at classes-as-values DC:Subject issue 19:21:57 Having a GOF for trade-offs would be great 19:22:00 Natasha: note that classes-as-instances is a different issue 19:22:45 Deb: would like to change from OPEN to OEP 19:22:55 Ontology Engineering Patterns 19:22:58 Natasha, do you mean classes as concrete data types? therefore, the 'annotation' approach ... 19:23:23 ACTION: Deb propose a simple pattern for OEP 19:23:43 Deb: name change will facilitate search 19:24:07 Guus: I only put on the agenda those TFs that were getting active discussion 19:24:26 ... from the Cannes notes, another TF I'd like to see get attention is PORT - Porting Thesaurii to the Web 19:25:01 Alistair: I am working on thesaurii conversions right now 19:25:16 Guus: I am working on this as well, expect to involve someone else from my lab 19:25:27 i would like to be involved in port as well 19:25:33 DanBri: I posted a draft today 19:25:59 [Jennifer, are you on the phone with Aditya?] 19:26:06 i'm on the phone at hom 19:26:07 e 19:26:16 oh, sorry, right 19:27:32 DanBri Alistair this paper might be of interest: http://www.cs.vu.nl/~guus/papers/Wielinga04.pdf 19:28:04 public-esw-thes has Stella Dextre-Clarke and Leonard Will from a team working on new british standards for thesauri 19:28:22 ... doug tudhope from glamorgan 19:28:23 Zakim, unmute jjc 19:28:23 jjc should no longer be muted 19:28:27 DanBri: would the WG prefer to use an existing public-esw list or start a new one? 19:28:30 + some others 19:28:35 yeah, im on the phone..sorry, had to step out for smthg urgent and missed the ADTF discussion:( but am discussing it w/ libby here on irc separately 19:28:45 (lots of good folks :) 19:29:02 Guus: if a separate list, would like to have regular summaries sent to the WG list 19:29:05 DanBri: agree 19:29:34 Guus: XML Schema TF? 19:30:09 Jeremy: not urgent, though New York is an opportunity to have informal talks 19:30:10 -JosD 19:30:11 -[UMD] 19:30:12 -Natasha 19:30:13 -David_Norheim 19:30:14 davidn has left #swbp 19:30:14 -Alistair 19:30:14 adjourned 19:30:15 -Marco 19:30:16 -Bristol 19:30:16 -Jen_Golbeck 19:30:29 ACTION: jjc, write TF desc for XML Sch 19:30:31 -Jacco 19:30:40 zakim, list participants 19:30:40 As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, Ralph, Pat_Hayes, danbri, libby, jjc, Marco?, Natasha, Brian_McBride, Jacco, Aditya, +1.650.723.aabb, Deb, Tom_Baker, 19:30:43 ... David_Norheim, JosD, Alistair, Jen_Golbeck, Marco, Mike_Uschold 19:30:48 Zakim, unmute jjc 19:30:48 jjc was not muted, jjc 19:30:51 -Ralph 19:31:06 Bye 19:31:22 bye 19:31:40 ocorcho has left #swbp 19:32:02 Tbaker has joined #swbp 19:32:11 Who is talking right now? 19:32:18 golbeck has left #swbp 19:35:19 -Deb 19:35:20 -jjc 19:35:21 -Tom_Baker 19:35:22 -Pat_Hayes 19:35:58 -Guus_Schreiber 19:48:54 Natasha has left #swbp 19:51:04 patH has left #swbp 19:57:11 jjc has left #swbp 20:18:21 thanks ralph - I should be able to scribe next time, I think, give you a rest (I havn;t got a handsfree phone yet) 21:15:18 rrsagent, bye 21:15:18 I see 5 open action items: 21:15:18 ACTION: Guus ask Aldo if someone from Princeton is willing to participate [1] 21:15:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-swbp-irc#T18-58-41 21:15:18 ACTION: Guus talk with Aldo about WordNet and produce a short-term plan for option 1 [2] 21:15:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-swbp-irc#T19-05-38 21:15:18 ACTION: Natasha look at classes-as-values DC:Subject issue [3] 21:15:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-swbp-irc#T19-21-50 21:15:18 ACTION: Deb propose a simple pattern for OEP [4] 21:15:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-swbp-irc#T19-23-23 21:15:18 ACTION: jjc, write TF desc for XML Sch [5] 21:15:18 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-swbp-irc#T19-30-29 21:15:34 SW_BPD()1:00PM has ended