15:29:38 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dawg
15:29:43 <DaveB> DaveB has joined #dawg
15:29:43 <DanC> Zakim, this will be RDFD
15:29:43 <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start in 1 minute
15:30:01 <AndyS> At TOC 1.1
15:30:17 <DanC> agenda + convene, take roll, review record, agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0230.html
15:30:22 <DanC> agenda + Use Cases
15:30:31 <DanC> agenda + Requirements
15:30:38 <DanC> agenda + Issues
15:30:44 <DanC> agenda + Amsterdam meeting arrangements
15:31:02 <DanC> ew.
15:32:11 <DanC> Zakim, this will be RDFD
15:32:11 <Zakim> ok, DanC; I see SW_DAWG()10:30AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
15:32:41 <DanC> Zakim, this is DAWG
15:32:41 <Zakim> ok, DanC; that matches SW_DAWG()10:30AM
15:32:45 <Zakim> -DanC
15:33:04 <Zakim> +DanC
15:33:22 <patH> patH has joined #dawg
15:33:22 <eikeon> There's a bit of an echo today.
15:33:30 <jannes> jannes has joined #dawg
15:33:57 <Zakim> +EricP
15:34:14 <DanC> Zakim, aacc is AlbertoG
15:34:14 <Zakim> +AlbertoG; got it
15:34:21 <Zakim> -AlbertoG
15:35:02 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:35:02 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose RobS
15:35:34 <Zakim> +[ASemantics]
15:35:56 <DaveB> roll call
15:36:03 <DaveB> alberto - asemantics
15:36:19 <DaveB> andyS - hp
15:36:21 <DaveB> kevinW - hp
15:36:27 <DaveB> jean francois - inria
15:36:28 <KevinW> KevinW has joined #dawg
15:36:40 <DaveB> kendall , daniel - maryland
15:36:46 <DaveB> rob - network inf
15:36:55 <dirkx> dirkx has joined #dawg
15:36:58 <DaveB> patricks - nokia
15:36:59 <AndyS> zakim, ??P32 is AndyS
15:36:59 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
15:37:03 <DaveB> janne - profium
15:37:11 <DaveB> daveB - bristol
15:37:14 <DaveB> pat hayes
15:37:19 <DaveB> - invited expert
15:37:27 <DaveB> katz - apologies
15:37:30 <DaveB> DanC
15:37:32 <DaveB> ericP
15:37:36 <DaveB> -- end of roll call
15:37:36 <DanC> Zakim, take up agendum 1
15:37:36 <Zakim> agendum 1. "convene, take roll, review record, agenda http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0230.html" taken up [from DanC]
15:37:47 <DaveB> s/apologies/regrets/ above for katz
15:37:53 <DaveB> regrets for andyS next telcon
15:37:59 <DanC> Zakim, pick a scribe
15:37:59 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose EricP
15:38:12 <DaveB> scribe next telcon - ericP
15:38:29 <DaveB> donm 8 april 
15:38:40 <DaveB> still looking for a co-chair
15:38:43 <DaveB> 15:30 UTC
15:39:26 <DaveB> alberto - swbpd telcon 15:00 UTC, thursday - overlaps
15:39:42 <DaveB> patHayes also on swbpd
15:39:48 <Zakim> +BryanT
15:39:50 <DaveB> danC - reviewing times after/at F2F
15:40:28 <DaveB> minutes approved of last meeting
15:40:53 <DanC> Zakim, next item
15:40:53 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Use Cases" taken up [from DanC]
15:40:56 <DaveB> agenda 0230.html
15:41:07 <kendall> heavy breather is back :>
15:41:19 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0231.html a draft DAWG document outline
15:41:25 <ericP> do we want to adderss action items?
15:41:42 <DaveB> kendall outlines 0231 above
15:42:09 <DaveB> KC - user stories I liked
15:42:09 <ericP> someone is breahting into the microphone
15:42:31 <DaveB> KC - motivating me, classifying by problem domain
15:42:51 <DaveB> KC - AndyS also did a draft, more stuff with user storeies. going to work to try to merge them into 1 doc
15:43:33 <DaveB> ?not mentioned xqueyr
15:44:01 <thompsonbry> thompsonbry has joined #dawg
15:44:01 <DaveB> KC - an oversight, to add
15:44:21 <JosD> JosD has joined #dawg
15:44:40 <DaveB> an outline, generally seems ok
15:45:00 <Zakim> +JosD
15:45:03 <DaveB> ACTION ericP, kendallC: sort out CVS access, put this on the home page
15:45:43 <DaveB> DanC - this isn't the final doc, or even includes all the UCs
15:46:02 <DaveB> KC - motivation for people who care about a UC to flesh it out, add a story - stop it being so thin
15:46:20 <DaveB> note to scribe - aagfa people arrived?  JosD & others?
15:47:05 <DaveB> present +JosD - agfa
15:47:39 <DaveB> PatrickS - would be nice to have a summary at the start to describe where it is going
15:48:01 <DaveB> ... what the purpose of the doc is, possible requirements
15:48:18 <DaveB> ... each UC have a 1 paragraph summary?
15:48:46 <DaveB> KC - love to have UCs with a para of text, easier to read
15:48:56 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/#goalChar_literalCmp
15:49:26 <DanC> Zakim, next item
15:49:27 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Requirements" taken up [from DanC]
15:49:45 <thompsonbry> bryan thompson also joined recently.
15:50:07 <thompsonbry> like to see addressing and linking added to the set of related technologies and standards.
15:50:17 <DaveB> ok, bryan - ack
15:50:48 <DaveB> EricP discusses url above
15:50:53 <DaveB> implemntation survey
15:51:03 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/#goalChar_literalCmp
15:51:15 <DaveB> ... section "Implentnation Survey"
15:51:29 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/11/13-RDF-Query-Rules/#langChar
15:51:32 <DaveB> top part is an attempt of an abstract syntax
15:51:42 <DaveB> anchors for language characteristics we could use
15:51:51 <DaveB> to describe what the different existing languages do
15:51:56 <DaveB> and what the UCs need/usr
15:51:57 <DaveB> use
15:52:24 <DaveB> happy to add items that aren't covered to this doc
15:52:36 <DaveB> AndyS - a lot more than just queyr langs (QLs)
15:52:43 <DaveB> ... such as rules
15:52:53 <DaveB> ... and we need to be aware of that.  Has to be query aspect.
15:53:10 <DaveB> EricP - rules, a fair amount in the doc above
15:53:16 <kendall> zakim, queue
15:53:16 <Zakim> I don't understand 'queue', kendall
15:53:19 <kendall> argh
15:53:39 <DaveB> EricP - ~70% query
15:54:10 <kendall> zakim queue+ me
15:54:11 <DaveB> ACTION EricP: Send mail to group about rdf-query-rules doc, proposing to using it an abstract syntax to describe requirements
15:54:29 <DaveB> KC - don't see anything about rdf path languages
15:54:51 <DaveB> KC - considering this, or out of scope?
15:55:04 <DaveB> EricP - there are a couple there SeRQL, Xqueyr, ... - 
15:55:28 <DaveB> ... abstract syn part doesn't really describe serialations, mostly about functions such as comparing rdf literals
15:55:52 <DaveB> ... might be tricky to add to this document.
15:56:18 <DaveB> PatrickS - looks useful, I like it.  But don't want to be constrained to things in this survey doc.
15:56:40 <DaveB> EricP - will be responsive to adding new terminology as people need them
15:56:47 <kendall> ericp: i had Versa in mind specifically, FWIW.
15:57:13 <DaveB> PatrickS - just want WG to be clear this isn't scoping us
15:57:57 <DaveB> Pat Hayes (PH) - tree structure / graph - presumption graphs are a tree structure?
15:58:07 <DaveB> EricP - no, but could clarify with an example
15:58:16 <DaveB> .. however some path languages don't express things that aren't trees
15:59:08 <DaveB> PH - implementations?
15:59:15 <DaveB> EricP - mostly stuff I found good docs for
15:59:48 <AndyS> ericp: Could you add the "tell me about .." http://www.joseki.org/RDF_data_objects.html and Patricks URIQA and CBD
15:59:49 <alberto> other list of RDF query languges (still maintained) http://rdfstore.sourceforge.net/2002/06/24/rdf-query/query-use-cases.html
16:00:00 <DaveB> ?speaking
16:00:16 <rob> I'm the guy with my own QL...
16:00:21 <DaveB> DanC - tell EricP if something you want, have, isn't there
16:00:45 <DaveB> Jos deRoo (JD) - access aspect present?
16:00:47 <DanC> no, dave, I said "if...". I guess if you misunderstood, others did too.
16:01:14 <DaveB> correction
16:01:20 <rob> I must admit I do think we're getting ahead of ourselves.
16:01:42 <rob> I think we've got a little more requirement-gathering before moving on to full query languages.
16:03:08 <DaveB> AndyS - don't want requirements to displace work on UCs
16:03:23 <DaveB> DanC - want to work on both
16:04:05 <rob> Is it worth trying to get consensus on what the "tell me about" requirement/usecase means?
16:04:08 <DaveB> .. UCs are there to 1) tell the world about this tech 2) for us so we know what we mean when we make requiremetns
16:05:13 <DaveB> DanC - we are discusing things not UCs or requirements somewhat
16:05:31 <DaveB> DanC - optional triples for example
16:05:41 <DaveB> worth having in candidate reuqirements?
16:06:09 <DaveB> support for optional triples as a candidate requirement - AndyS (proposer), Alberto, DaveB
16:06:30 <DaveB> DanC - disjunction?  use case of Rob (ref?)
16:07:08 <kendall> that's 0184 in the archive
16:08:08 <thompsonbry> graph update as candidate requirement ;) ?
16:08:08 <DaveB> candidate requirement - DanC (proposer), ericp, Rob
16:08:30 <rob> use case is http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0184.html
16:08:30 <DaveB> this is proposing candidate requirements for the list, not supporting them
16:08:53 <DaveB> kendall - complex graphs
16:09:16 <DaveB> .. to select more than just based on an adjacent node such as three nodes connected by 2 edges, want just one?
16:09:55 <DaveB> DanC - Pat Hayes said earlier, more than just paths?
16:10:06 <DaveB> KC - paths with more than 1 edge
16:10:55 <DanC> Jean Francois speaking, I believe
16:10:58 <DaveB> yes
16:11:04 <kendall> taht's not me, btw
16:11:05 <DaveB> JF - entailment as a requirement
16:11:31 <DaveB> PH - QL should enable the querier to specify if they want interference or not
16:11:36 <DaveB> inference
16:12:35 <DaveB> decided canidate requirement - paths of length more than two edges
16:12:59 <DaveB> s/more than two/more than one/
16:13:25 <DaveB> PatrickS - support PH inference
16:13:49 <DaveB> AndyS - keep inference separate from source selection
16:14:25 <DaveB> DanC - charter has words on this re inference, being same as selecting sources
16:14:58 <AndyS> Inference Charter 1.8 http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/dawg-charter#derivedGraphs
16:15:13 <ericP> 2.1: http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/dawg-charter#rdfs-owl-queries
16:17:13 <DaveB> candidate requirement - should be possible for the query to indicate whether the response is expected to allow for entailment from the graph or is dealing with the graph as a fixed object (P Hayes)
16:17:34 <DaveB> decided to add above, PatrickS agrees
16:17:42 <DaveB> DanC - non trees?
16:17:58 <DaveB> PH - more of an observation
16:18:30 <DaveB> be able to ask if a triple doesn't exist in a grpah
16:19:01 <DaveB> discussion of negation examples
16:20:35 <DaveB> DanC - taking to email, subtlies here
16:21:07 <kendall> "subtleties" is subtle ;>
16:21:31 <DaveB> PatrickS - propose requirement to be able to express arbitrary datatype values
16:22:07 <thompsonbry> 60
16:22:40 <DaveB> extend to 90 mins
16:23:07 <alberto> 60 - sorry need to leave
16:23:52 <DaveB> ? - my next Q would be operations on literal values, and then working on arbitrayr datatype values
16:24:07 <jannes> (that was my)
16:24:24 <DaveB> PatrickS - clearly there will be some limit tothe supported dataypes, such as XSD ones being widespread
16:24:54 <DaveB> ... for datatypes not supported, it could fail or could send back an error, don't understand
16:25:17 <DaveB> patH - agree with patrickS
16:25:34 <AndyS> AndyS agrees to the requirement
16:25:42 <DaveB> janne - I agree also, min datatypes a QL should support?
16:25:45 <AndyS> Issues on the actions on not supported
16:25:51 <DaveB> ?KC - agree, without the word arbitrary
16:25:56 <kendall> nope, not me.
16:26:27 <DaveB> candidate requirement above of PatrickS - decided on the list
16:26:28 <alberto> AlbertoR agrees that core set of datatype support as relevant
16:26:59 <DaveB> DanC - ask KC / EricP to copy these into the UC doc?
16:27:27 <Zakim> - +1.207.395.aaaa
16:27:34 <ericP> ACTION: EricP and KC to update use cases docuent with candidate requirement
16:28:21 <rob> PS- queries should be bookmarkable
16:28:23 <thompsonbry> Possible requirement: Client can negotiate with the server to determine which requirements MUST apply or MUST NOT apply for a given query.
16:28:44 <rob> query captured as URL
16:28:53 <thompsonbry> +1
16:28:54 <rob> alberto: concur, possible with XPointer
16:29:04 <rob> new req: bookmarking
16:29:14 <thompsonbry> Is that captured as the reference of a URI or as the URI itself?
16:30:11 <thompsonbry> Suggestion is content negotiation for the returned representation?
16:30:14 <rob> rob: users should be able to format their own results
16:30:26 <rob> Eric- concur
16:31:23 <ericP> candidate requirements += format their own results (specify format of return)
16:32:03 <rob> Yanni: closure is useful
16:32:17 <DanC> Janne
16:32:45 <kendall> :>
16:32:46 <rob> Patrick supports
16:33:44 <thompsonbry> Bryan supports client option to elect for closure, but also to elect for other content types in the response.
16:33:51 <rob> Janne: closure implies ability to format results.
16:33:57 <rob> (just an excuse to spell it correctly)
16:34:34 <rob> the results can be an rdf graph...
16:35:09 <rob> EricP: closure only if it means results as RDF
16:35:12 <DanC> candidates += closure (Janne, EricP)
16:35:15 <DaveB> I support results as rdf graph
16:35:44 <DaveB> can somebody expand closure for me, as scribe, I've got to explain this!
16:36:14 <Zakim> -[ASemantics]
16:36:21 <alberto> alberto has left #dawg
16:36:36 <jannes> closure = operator that operates on data model B returns result in data model B
16:36:43 <rob> proposed: ability to express queries in RDF
16:36:54 <DaveB> thanks Janne
16:37:12 <DanC> " ability to express queries in RDF" - candidate. jos, Patricks
16:37:18 <rob> RDF vocab for expressing queries...
16:37:37 <kendall> danc bottleneck! :>
16:38:01 <DanC> Zakim, next item
16:38:01 <Zakim> agendum 4. "Issues" taken up [from DanC]
16:38:33 <rob> dan: there's mail not about use cases or requirements
16:38:41 <rob> ignore, or put them in issues list?
16:38:50 <DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-dawg/2004JanMar/0226.html
16:39:06 <rob> call for volunteers to manage issues list
16:39:13 <rob> ericP volunteers
16:39:31 <rob> eric and dan to maintain issues list
16:39:59 <DanC> ACTION EricP: work with DanC on an initial issues list
16:40:53 <rob> path: anything on issues list means lots of work; don't use it frivolously
16:41:02 <DanC> Zakim, next item
16:41:02 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Amsterdam meeting arrangements" taken up [from DanC]
16:41:09 <DanC> er..
16:41:37 <rob> issues list should be approved by others?
16:41:42 <rob> (who said it?)
16:41:44 <kendall> so a candidates issues list :>
16:41:52 <kendall> rob: patricks
16:41:57 <thompsonbry> Signing off.
16:42:06 <Zakim> -BryanT
16:42:07 <thompsonbry> thompsonbry has left #dawg
16:42:34 <rob> patricks: telecon for f2f include requirements
16:42:40 <rob> (at least ps's requirements)
16:43:00 <DaveB> can you expand on that?
16:43:13 <rob> fill out reg form for f2f even if you're not attending
16:43:17 <rob> all 17
16:43:58 <rob> DanC to continue working on agenda for f2f
16:45:21 <Zakim> -DanielK
16:45:24 <Zakim> -DanC
16:45:26 <rob> fare thee well
16:45:29 <Zakim> -Pat_Hayes
16:45:30 <DaveB> rob?
16:45:31 <Zakim> -PatrickS
16:45:32 <Zakim> -Tayeb
16:45:39 <Zakim> -JosD
16:45:42 <Zakim> -Kevin
16:45:50 <Zakim> - +358.925.6aabb
16:45:54 <jannes> jannes has left #dawg
16:45:54 <KevinW> KevinW has left #dawg
16:47:30 <rob> addition: PatS wanted the teleconference to be scheduled at the time the discussion of his requirements comes up.
16:47:41 <rob> (during the face-to-face)
16:47:57 <rob> Who's writing up minutes? Me, DanC, or DaveB?
16:48:01 <DaveB> me
16:48:11 <DanC> ah, good, dave, yes please.
16:48:18 <rob> Great.
16:48:27 <rob> Signing off, unless I'm needed for anything else...
16:48:35 <DaveB> see ya
16:48:37 <DanC> thanks, rob. hasta.
16:48:44 <Zakim> -RobS
16:52:50 <Zakim> -AndyS
16:57:48 <DanC> crud... did I ever get back to Brian?
17:02:03 <Zakim> -[UMD]
17:02:06 <Zakim> -EricP
17:02:07 <Zakim> SW_DAWG()10:30AM has ended
17:02:08 <Zakim> Attendees were Tayeb, [UMD], +1.207.395.aaaa, RobS, Kevin, +358.925.6aabb, DanielK, DanC, Pat_Hayes, PatrickS, +39.033.2.aacc, EricP, AlbertoG, [ASemantics], AndyS, BryanT, JosD
17:04:02 <DanC> hmm... ericp, I wonder if the telcon reservation is for 15:30 UTC
17:04:23 <DanC> "Boston *	Thu 11:30 AM" -- http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=8&month=4&year=2004&hour=15&min=30&sec=0&p1=0
17:05:17 <DanC> crud... " 10:30am-12:00pm (14:30-16:00Z) SW_DAWG" -- http://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#D20040408
17:05:46 <ericP> kendal, issues list: http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-dawg-issues
17:08:51 <DanC> ericp, pls put that under 2001/sw/DataAccess
17:09:45 <ericP> ok. kendal, i'm moving that document now
17:12:43 <ericP> kendal, now at http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues
17:12:48 <DanC> thx
17:20:20 <kendall> kendall has joined #dawg
17:58:20 <patH> ?
18:12:46 <kendall> ericp: you still here?
18:15:19 <ericP> yup
18:15:23 <kendall> oh, hey
18:15:30 <kendall> hmm, i'm a bit confused by the uri you coined
18:15:35 <kendall> ... /issues?
18:15:52 <ericP> oops, too many things in my head at once.
18:15:54 <kendall> that sounds like the issues list. but the doc i'm working on isn't an issues list. :>
18:16:00 <ericP> i needed to create an issues list too.
18:16:07 <kendall> maybe .../user-stories or something?
18:16:08 <kendall> yeah
18:16:10 <kendall> i thought so
18:16:24 <ericP> UseCases.html ?
18:16:34 <kendall> well, no .html but sure ;>
18:17:48 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-readable
18:17:51 <DanC> RRSAgent, make logs world-access
18:18:08 <DanC> RRSAgent, pointer?
18:18:08 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-dawg-irc#T18-18-08
18:18:45 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases
18:19:29 <DanC> are you fixing kendall up with cvs access, ericp?
18:21:19 <ericP> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/issues is now an empty issues list
18:21:45 <ericP> danc, kendall and i decided to start with him using mail to me as his publishing mechanism
18:22:03 <ericP> and deal with more access if necissary
18:22:21 <kendall> well, mail to the list ;>
18:22:27 <ericP> specifically, mail to the list, which i will poll and publish in the consistent location
18:22:31 <ericP> rigth
18:22:37 <kendall> yep
18:31:54 <DanC> ew.
18:32:13 <DanC> I'd really rather kendall had instant-update-access.
18:32:25 <DanC> we can move the document to mindswap if it helps.
18:33:39 <kendall> i dont' really have much of a preference
18:34:06 <DanC> ok, well, I have a pretty strong preference that you use cvs.w3.org directly, kendall
18:34:33 <kendall> ok
18:38:59 <ericP> danc, may i ask why? are you worried about letancy or burdens falling on your shoulders when i'm off net?
18:39:38 <DanC> (a) I don't like whole documents being mailed to the whole WG to fix a typo. And I want typos fixed quickly and often.
18:39:47 <ericP> we didn't think it was worth a lot of infrastructure effort at this point, but you may have a better grasp of the job than either of us.
18:39:47 <DanC> (b) I don't want 2 people in the critical path when 1 will do.
18:40:15 <DanC> I want WG members to get instant-gratification for proposing changes to the document.
18:40:32 <ericP> all right, i'll start the dance with sysreq tomorrow
18:40:54 <DanC> as in: "ah, yes, good point. fixed in $Revision 1.6$ of http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/DataAccess/UseCases"
18:41:44 <DanC> thanks, ericp
18:41:53 <ericP> no prob
18:51:10 <Zakim> Zakim has left #dawg
19:02:25 <DanC> RRSAgent, bye
19:02:25 <RRSAgent> I see 3 open action items:
19:02:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to Send mail to group about rdf-query-rules doc, proposing to using it an abstract syntax to describe requirements [1]
19:02:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-dawg-irc#T15-54-11
19:02:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP and KC to update use cases docuent with candidate requirement [2]
19:02:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-dawg-irc#T16-27-34
19:02:25 <RRSAgent> ACTION: EricP to work with DanC on an initial issues list [3]
19:02:25 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/04/01-dawg-irc#T16-39-59