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13:12:02 <wendy> morning session:
13:12:12 <wendy> present:
13:12:12 <wendy> katie hartiso-shea, cessi
13:12:12 <wendy> ben caldwell, trace r&d
13:12:12 <wendy> tom croucher, uni sunderland
13:12:12 <wendy> eric velleman, bartimeus
13:12:13 <wendy> henk snetselaar, bartimeus
13:12:15 <wendy> jose alonso, ficyt (w3c spanish office host, taw)
13:12:17 <wendy> allistair garrison, accessinmind, ltd
13:12:19 <wendy> shadi abou-zhara, w3c (ert wg, eowg)
13:12:21 <wendy> wendy buckley, amadaeus (member, localization, usability)
13:12:23 <wendy> andrew arch, natl info lib service (Aus), EOWG
13:12:25 <wendy> lisa seeman, ubaccess
13:12:27 <wendy> michael cooper, watchfire
13:12:29 <wendy> wendy chisholm, w3c
13:12:31 <wendy> ===
13:12:33 <wendy> afternoon
13:12:35 <wendy> shadi, michael, ben, tom, jose, wendy
13:12:37 <wendy> techs submission form
13:17:37 <wendy> public-wcag2-techs@w3.org
13:25:39 <wendy> pull-down for category and guideline reference need to be updated for changes in docs
13:27:00 <wendy> action: tom create the script that will update category based on technology
13:27:22 <wendy> action: ben populate the category with appropriate info once get script from tom
13:29:35 <ben> action: ben to add a disclaimer "submissions are subject to WG approval and do not guarantee inclusion in a techniques working draft"
13:30:03 <sh1m|cannes> sh1m|cannes has joined #wai-wcag
13:30:17 <ben> action: ben to fix subject line to match "short name" for submitted technique
13:44:27 <wendy> going through gateway bugs
13:44:32 <wendy> 285: closed
13:44:33 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=285
13:44:45 <wendy> 302: closed
13:44:46 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=302
13:44:55 <wendy> 517: closed
13:44:56 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=517
13:45:31 <wendy> 520: assigned to tom
13:45:40 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=520
13:45:45 <wendy> 521: closed
13:45:51 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=521
13:48:04 <wendy> 522: assigned to tom
13:48:05 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=522
13:48:21 <wendy> 523: assigned to michael
13:48:22 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=523
13:48:37 <wendy> 524
13:48:59 <wendy> lots of info in latest draft
13:50:02 <wendy> how much move to gateway vs keep in guidelines/success criteria.
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13:50:28 <wendy> probably become guideline issue instead of gateway issue.
13:50:43 <wendy> it's normative info required for success criteria.
13:51:32 <wendy> 526; http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=526
13:51:40 <wendy> we need ids to nth degree, also apply to gateway
13:53:31 <wendy> action: tom put ids on everything (to paragraph level, begun needs to finish)
13:53:56 <wendy> assigned to tom
13:54:06 <wendy> 527: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=527
13:54:37 <wendy> not link to bugzilla, link to the techniques form
13:55:12 <wendy> no - about getting to issues from the document
13:55:32 <wendy> action: wendy talk to judy about linking to issue lists
13:56:43 <wendy> action: wendy and ben talk about "dead" link created by linking to issue summaries for guidelines that disappear.
13:57:51 <wendy> possible solution: 404 redirect to query form or main bugzilla page.
13:58:10 <wendy> 528: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=528
13:58:27 <wendy> closed. ben fixed the headers.
14:01:10 <wendy> 529: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=529
14:02:12 <wendy> http://www.w3.org/2000/08/nba-manual/Overview.html
14:02:44 <joseA> joseA has joined #wai-wcag
14:04:41 <wendy> leave open. tom will fix.
14:05:58 <wendy> 530 tom pick one
14:06:03 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=530
14:06:48 <wendy> 531: close. leave as is. http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=531
14:07:57 <wendy> 532: use wording from guidelines (of text equiv)
14:07:58 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=532
14:09:33 <wendy> 533: use wording from guidelines
14:09:33 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=533
14:10:32 <wendy> 534: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=534
14:10:45 <wendy> sounds html-like
14:10:55 <wendy> however, controls need to be identified to the user
14:12:02 <wendy> action: tom (and michael) figure out which part needs to be in gateway which part in html
14:12:12 <wendy> 535: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=535
14:14:32 <wendy> metaprocess discussion about dealing with ednotes and bugzilla.
14:14:56 <wendy> resolution: create a bugzilla entry for every ednote and cross reference (bugzilla) from ednote
14:15:20 <wendy> assigned to tom
14:15:41 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=536
14:15:43 <wendy> closed. 
14:15:53 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=612
14:17:29 <wendy> ===
14:17:32 <wendy> break in issue tracking.
14:17:39 <wendy> ian demos Exit
14:18:12 <wendy> (member access) http://www.w3.org/2003/12/exit/
14:40:28 <wendybreak> right now, we're too engrained in bugzilla (too much data to transfer)
14:40:58 <wendybreak> plus, the interface for bugzilla is more interactive (allwos our participants to edit, rather than only editing xml file).
14:41:10 <wendybreak> look at again in a few months after they complete the xforms interface
14:41:27 <wendybreak> perhaps at or before last call when will have less open issues to transfer.
14:41:34 <wendybreak> look into copying their reports.
14:41:47 <wendybreak> emulate their process via bugzilla. 
14:41:57 <wendybreak> reviewers, tracking communication with
14:41:59 <wendybreak> (issue)
14:42:35 <wendybreak> action: wendy and ben look at exit scheme and think about how to emulate in bugzilla.
14:43:17 <wendybreak> perhaps export bugzilla data to their schema and use their tools to create reports.
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15:08:22 <wendy> wendy has joined #wai-wcag
15:09:20 <wendy> 612: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=612
15:12:19 <wendy> leave open. assigned to tom.
15:13:31 <wendy> 613: leave open. assigned to tom.
15:13:32 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=613
15:13:39 <wendy> also 614 and 615
15:13:47 <wendy> 651: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=651
15:14:25 <wendy> assign to tom
15:14:33 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=758
15:15:26 <wendy> an overview of methodology
15:15:49 <wendy> link to eowg drafts
15:15:58 <wendy> testing info etc
15:16:04 <wendy> assign to tom
15:16:15 <wendy> http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=762
15:19:36 <wendy> cms: if content hasn't been generated yet, doesn't know title of where going.
15:19:50 <wendy> it's one technique for facilitating and understanding.
15:19:52 <wendy> not a criteria
15:20:50 <wendy> assigned to tom. 
15:21:01 <wendy> ===
15:21:10 <wendy> principle 1 intro (tom's preview of proposed text)_
15:22:41 <wendy> ben has action to write intro to each principle
15:23:53 <wendy> action: ben and tom draft intros to principles (to include in wcag 2.0 document as well as gateway)
15:25:18 <wendy> ===
15:25:21 <wendy> test matrix
15:25:49 <wendy> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/att-0404/draft_test_matrix.html
15:29:07 <wendy> move hpr to browser not AT
15:31:16 <wendy> linux:
15:31:40 <wendy> add emacspeak to linux as browser
15:32:16 <wendy> add galeon as browser
15:32:39 <wendy> add lynx and links as browsers
15:33:23 <wendy> test other devices?
15:33:27 <wendy> mobile phones (opera)
15:33:36 <wendy> voicexml browser/phones
15:34:14 <wendy> consider other platforms and devices
15:35:03 <wendy> ipacs (linux), jaws on palm of some sort?
15:35:45 <wendy> (open issue added)
15:36:44 <wendy> add firefox as browser
15:36:50 <wendy> add gnomespeak as at
15:37:19 <wendy> remove ie5
15:38:36 <wendy> action: jenae remove all currently listed ATs from linux table?
15:40:10 <wendy> add input ats.  speech recognition, keyboard interface, spellchecker/IE, etc.
15:40:20 <sh1m|cannes> http://trace.wisc.edu/linux/current.html#speech
15:41:04 <wendy> some of the links are broken, send feedback to trace
15:41:59 <wendy> add netscape 4, opera 7
15:42:13 <wendy> konq depend on KDE. what do for versions?
15:43:20 <wendy> action: tom figure out good list of browsers for linux.
15:43:48 <wendy> can we assume that people will stay more up-to-date w/linux?
15:44:19 <wendy> macintosh
15:44:29 <wendy> delete ie6 on mac
15:44:35 <wendy> check for versions on safari
15:45:00 <wendy> issues with running old versions of netscape on macs
15:46:08 <wendy> generalize: netscape 3 and under group and assign a single priority
15:46:14 <wendy> add omniweb to list of mac browsers
15:46:28 <wendy> only screenr eader for mac was outspoken
15:46:39 <wendy> most others delete 
15:47:13 <wendy> action: jenae to check on availability of assistive technologies for macs
15:47:25 <wendy> action tom: check on apple screen reader
15:47:34 <wendy> what about OSs that have the ability to enlarge text
15:48:25 <wendy> include OS features: e.g., windows magnifier, mac speech output
15:50:08 <wendy> issue: combinations of assistive technologies
15:51:48 <wendy> add amaya to linux
15:53:14 <wendy> windows
15:53:28 <wendy> s/lynx/lynx for windows
15:53:36 <wendy> s/lynx for dos
15:54:13 <wendy> screen readers can't interact with dos windows
15:54:32 <wendy> versions of the assistive technologies
15:55:35 <wendy> action: jenae proposal for versions of assistive technologies (for windows)
15:55:43 <wendy> add amaya for mac
15:56:02 <wendy> supernova (hal+magnifier)
15:56:09 <wendy> add
15:56:22 <wendy> magic
15:57:00 <wendy> magic's table navigation is from older version of jaws
15:57:25 <wendy> aol have own browser
15:57:28 <wendy> ?
15:57:56 <wendy> aol?
15:58:24 <wendy> other platforms: webtv, other devices, etc.
15:58:46 <wendy> webtv requires visual access and ability to use remote (system requirement)
15:59:43 <wendy> break out windows into windows 98?  windows xp, windows 2000, win nt
16:01:17 <wendy> how diff are implementations between nt and xp?
16:02:14 <wendy> netscape 4.7 on xp?
16:03:11 <wendy> action: jenae does netscape 4.7 work on xp?
16:03:24 <wendy> mac os 9?
16:03:47 <wendy> add icab to mac
16:04:11 <wendy> linux: KDE 1, 2
16:04:29 <wendy> s/KDE 2,3, gnome 1,2
16:05:02 <wendy> ===
16:05:06 <wendy> define priorities for test matrix
16:07:48 <wendy> must, should, may
16:07:52 <wendy> accept submissions at any level
16:07:59 <wendy> must - only level verify. not sure how much verify.
16:08:31 <wendy> notes about at quirks could scare away developers.
16:08:43 <wendy> "this doesn't work in jaws 4" could result in someone not doing it.
16:09:01 <wendy> p1 - we have to do ourselves (we need to ensure the fidelity of the test)
16:09:18 <wendy> p2 - things we can scour other resources for (only testourselves if unsure about)
16:09:23 <wendy> p3 - things we're not going to do
16:09:30 <wendy> if we stumble across info, log
16:11:45 <wendy> p1 - we must obtain test data
16:11:53 <wendy> p2 - we should try to get decent test data if we can
16:11:58 <wendy> p3 - nice to have
16:12:18 <wendy> are there things we exclude from p1?
16:12:32 <wendy> e.g., no longer supported by company who built?  older than x years old?
16:13:09 <wendy> i.e., what is likely to fall into p1?
16:13:12 <wendy> common use?
16:17:43 <wendy> netscape 4.71 pre 2000 (6 came out in 2000)
16:18:41 <wendy> 4th quarter 1999
16:23:07 <wendy> look at browser logs
16:23:48 <wendy> security issues are forcing upgrades
16:24:25 <wendy> eowg business case benefits is compatibility to older browsers.
16:26:37 <wendy> action: tom check if can use access logs from company has worked with
16:26:53 <wendy> see if can use it anonymously
16:28:17 <wendy> action: wac w3c logs
16:28:21 <wendy> action: ben w3c logs
16:28:44 <wendy> action: wac check with offices to get differences in browser use around the world
16:28:59 <wendy> won't get asst. tech use from logs.
16:30:07 <wendy> to determine p1: look at log data (most commonly used browsers) + a few choice older browsers + some asst techs
16:32:06 <wendy> cmn via sidar could fidn out s. america
16:32:19 <wendy> find time categorizing what needs to be done in general sense
16:32:29 <wendy> this is what we can do...if others want to do more...here you go
16:33:54 <wendy> other organizations to do testing on certain platforms?  
16:34:05 <wendy> w3cschools (interesting stats)
16:34:41 <wendy> ie6 72%, moz 9, netscape 4 <1/2%
16:34:49 <wendy> opera 2% (but it's set to "lie")
16:36:41 <wendy> usage axis (for browsers).  assist. techs - how determine? dno't havfe the same data.
16:43:29 <wendy> uaag for last call: http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/impl-pr2/
16:43:38 <wendy> select different browsers depending on the test?
16:44:56 <wendy> does the expected behavior happen? does anything happen?
16:45:32 <wendy> action: jenae and wendy to consider further, make initial proposal
16:49:51 <joseA> joseA has left #wai-wcag
16:51:48 <wendy> RRSAgent, help?
16:51:48 <wendy> I'm logging.  Sorry, nothing found for 'help'
16:54:28 <wendy> rrsagent, make logs world-visible
16:54:42 <wendy> rrsagent, bye
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> I see 21 open action items:
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom create the script that will update category based on technology [1]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-27-00
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben populate the category with appropriate info once get script from tom [2]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-27-22
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben to add a disclaimer "submissions are subject to WG approval and do not guarantee inclusion in a techniques working draft" [3]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-29-35
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben to fix subject line to match "short name" for submitted technique [4]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-30-17
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom put ids on everything (to paragraph level, begun needs to finish) [5]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-53-31
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy talk to judy about linking to issue lists [6]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-55-32
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy and ben talk about "dead" link created by linking to issue summaries for guidelines that disappear. [7]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T13-56-43
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom (and michael) figure out which part needs to be in gateway which part in html [8]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T14-12-02
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wendy and ben look at exit scheme and think about how to emulate in bugzilla. [9]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T14-42-35
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben and tom draft intros to principles (to include in wcag 2.0 document as well as gateway) [10]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-23-53
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jenae remove all currently listed ATs from linux table? [11]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-38-36
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom figure out good list of browsers for linux. [12]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-43-20
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jenae to check on availability of assistive technologies for macs [13]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-13
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom to check on apple screen reader [14]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-47-25
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jenae proposal for versions of assistive technologies (for windows) [15]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T15-55-35
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jenae does netscape 4.7 work on xp? [16]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-03-11
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: tom check if can use access logs from company has worked with [17]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-26-37
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wac w3c logs [18]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-17
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: ben w3c logs [19]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-21
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: wac check with offices to get differences in browser use around the world [20]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-28-44
16:54:42 <RRSAgent> ACTION: jenae and wendy to consider further, make initial proposal [21]
16:54:42 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-wai-wcag-irc#T16-45-32
16:54:57 <ben> ben has left #wai-wcag