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08:00:58 <RalphS> Meeting: SemWeb Best Practices and Deployment WG
08:01:06 <RalphS> Chair: Guus Schreiber
08:01:24 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #swbp
08:01:29 <RalphS> zakim, this will be swbp
08:01:29 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled near this time, RalphS
08:01:38 <RalphS> zakim, this will be sw
08:01:38 <Zakim> ok, RalphS; I see SW_BPD(tp2004)3:00AM scheduled to start now
08:02:11 <dajobe> dajobe has joined #swbp
08:02:46 <Zakim> SW_BPD(tp2004)3:00AM has now started
08:02:48 <Zakim> +Tp_iles_a
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08:04:56 <DanC_jam> DanC_jam has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-SWBPD
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08:05:58 <RalphS> Guus opens meeting
08:06:13 <RalphS> -> http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-SWBPD agenda
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08:07:19 <Zakim> +Deb_Mcguinness
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08:08:17 <dajobe> guus says this is a public meeting
08:08:42 <RalphS> Guus: happy that many people took the risk to come to Mandelieu given the short time since the Director's decision
08:09:52 <RalphS> ... expectation management; hope to define some early deliverables by the end of this meeting
08:10:49 <bwm-scribe> guus solicits scribes
08:10:58 <bwm-scribe> bwm volunteers
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08:11:46 <dlm> hi
08:11:51 <bwm-scribe> seme discussion of names of irc channels, mailing list etc
08:12:07 <shawn> shawn has joined #swbp
08:12:12 <bwm-scribe> deb macginess (sp?) is on the phone
08:12:25 <dlm> Deb McGuinness  for notes
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08:13:13 <libby> libby has joined #swbp
08:13:19 <bwm-scribe> thre is a home page for the group
08:13:44 <danbri_dna> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/
08:14:09 <fabien_gandon> mailing list page: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/
08:14:29 <bwm-scribe> introductions
08:15:05 <bwm-scribe> patrick observes that the room is too hot
08:15:24 <bwm-scribe> guus sumarizes agenda
08:15:49 <Yoshio> Yoshio has joined #swbp
08:16:12 <bwm-scribe> guus: co-chair of webont
08:16:24 <bwm-scribe> ... would like a co-chair for this group
08:16:36 <bwm-scribe> ... interesting experience
08:16:39 <bwm-scribe> ... good discusions
08:16:53 <bwm-scribe> ... keeps task to one day per week
08:17:06 <bwm-scribe> ... also does semantic annotation of heritage images
08:17:22 <bwm-scribe> ... area of research best practices oriented
08:17:47 <bwm-scribe> Ralph Swick: was activity lead for metadata activity
08:17:53 <bwm-scribe> ... did first rdf spec
08:18:03 <bwm-scribe> ... being trying to get this stuff off ground for a while
08:18:18 <bwm-scribe> ... has been focussing on advanced development
08:18:22 <chaalsMEL> chaalsMEL has joined #swbp
08:18:34 <bwm-scribe> ... back to help guus and wg
08:18:39 <chaalsMEL> Al: There is a push behind getting DOM 3 done. HTML group are unhappy about not having them disappear
08:18:50 <bwm-scribe> ... interest in not forgetting the deployment part of the charter
08:18:51 <libby> libby has joined #swbp
08:19:01 <bwm-scribe> ... helping folks who need to understand how to tuse the tools
08:19:02 <DanC_NCE> logger, pointer?
08:19:12 <DanC_NCE> RRSAgent, pointer?
08:19:12 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-swbp-irc#T08-19-12
08:19:19 <bwm-scribe> ... folks need help converting ot owl and how to use rdf int he context of their work
08:19:29 <bwm-scribe> ... concern to ensure group facilities them
08:19:41 <bwm-scribe> ... particular interest in human/human collaboration
08:20:04 <bwm-scribe> Aldwin Journe: Ontology Lab in Italy
08:20:13 <bwm-scribe> ... interested in formal ontologies, domain ontologies ...
08:20:19 <bwm-scribe> ... terminology engineering
08:20:30 <Natasha> Natasha has joined #swbp
08:20:41 <bwm-scribe> ... the lab specicually dedicated to application fo ontologies
08:20:53 <bwm-scribe> ... multidisciplinary - philosophy, linguistics ...
08:21:17 <bwm-scribe> ... contribution methodologies for best practices
08:21:29 <bwm-scribe> ... apply generic principles for ontology design patterns
08:21:53 <bwm-scribe> ... aim to reduce gap between theoryand practice
08:22:09 <bwm-scribe> ... developing an ontology library
08:22:14 <bwm-scribe> ... part of wondernet
08:22:32 <bwm-scribe> Beranard Vatton: Mondeca
08:22:35 <bwm-scribe> ... topic maps
08:22:52 <bwm-scribe> ... involved in owl group
08:23:13 <bwm-scribe> ... very interested in bp because mondeca is a sw enterprise
08:23:22 <bwm-scribe> ... semantic web portals
08:23:29 <bwm-scribe> ... bring pragmatic use cases
08:23:48 <bwm-scribe> ... has chaired for two years oasis tech committee on published subjects
08:24:03 <bwm-scribe> ... trying to be bridge between sw community and topic maps community
08:24:25 <bwm-scribe> guus: link with topic maps is explicitly mentioned in the charter
08:24:33 <fabien_gandon> spelling: Bernard Vatant from Mondeca
08:24:43 <bwm-scribe> Andre ??? France Telecom
08:24:49 <bwm-scribe> ... involved in ontoweb
08:25:22 <bwm-scribe> ... intersted in process to educate industry in semantic web
08:25:23 <bwm-scribe> ... good for new services for enterprise
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08:27:35 <DanC_jam> Alain LEGER <alain.leger@rd.francetelecom.com> (France Telecom)
08:27:42 <fabien_gandon_> fabien_gandon_ has joined #swbp
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08:28:01 <dlm> whomever is speaking can not be heard almost at all
08:28:04 <DanC_jam> ... working on knowledge processing, reasoning, natural language processing, ...
08:28:31 <DanC_jam> ... in charge of outreach to industry part of KnowledgeWeb (sp?)
08:28:31 <gk> gk has joined #swbp
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08:28:41 <danbri> ...intention to connect services and commerce
08:28:59 <DanC_jam> ... in charge of best practices in [something? OntoWeb?]
08:29:10 <danbri> (yes, OntoWeb)
08:29:32 <fabien_gandon_> Previous guy from france telecom must have been Marco Nanni (IMHO)
08:30:02 <DanC_jam> ... have been involved in other standardization efforts for some time: ISO, CCITT...
08:30:11 <DanC_jam> ... so I know their rules.
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08:30:27 <DanC_jam> JJC: will you both representing F.T?
08:30:31 <bwm> bwm has joined #swbp
08:30:32 <DanC_jam> A: mostly Marco
08:30:34 <libby> libby has joined #swbp
08:30:59 <DanC_jam> Yoshio Fukushige <yoshio@w3.org> (Matsushita Electric Industrial Co., Ltd. (MEI))
08:31:02 <bwm> bwm has joined #swbp
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08:31:10 <DanC_jam> ... an observer today
08:31:34 <DanC_jam> ... as a former member of [a large project in japan? help?] I'm very interested to be here...
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08:31:41 <danbri> <- http://www.w3.org/People/all#yoshio  Yoshio Fukushige
08:31:57 <bwm> ... interested in classificationa nd clustering of documents and terms
08:31:57 <gk> interested in full-text search, classification of terms
08:31:59 <danbri> ]]His research area is natural language processing (NLP), and he is an ex-member of the EDR project, a national project of Japan to build large-scale dictionaries for NLP, such as machine translation. He has been interested in probabilistic reasoning and its application to document processing these couple of years.
08:31:59 <DanC_jam> ... [large dictionary project?]
08:31:59 <danbri> ]]
08:32:03 <bwm> ... interested in probabalistic reasoning
08:32:22 <bwm> ... Dirk ??? form asymantics
08:32:27 <bwm> ... small compnay
08:32:29 <gk> Dirk Willem van Gulik
08:32:30 <ChrisWelty> ChrisWelty has joined #swbp
08:32:36 <gk> aSemantics (comoany)
08:32:39 <bwm> ... sell sw technologies to large orgs
08:32:46 <bwm> ... from shallow end of th eweb
08:33:05 <bwm> ... will not be on wg but David ????
08:33:14 <bwm> Liddy Neville
08:33:19 <bwm> ... not sure if at table or not
08:33:25 <bwm> ... interstin accessabilty
08:33:39 <bwm> ... how we can take inaccecca ble things and make thema cessable
08:33:47 <bwm> ... business of matching people to resources
08:33:59 <bwm> ... work with a lot of accessability folks outside w3 community
08:34:07 <bwm> ... would like to bring that work into w3 community
08:34:14 <bwm> ... this wg looks like best place
08:34:25 <gk> matching profiles of people with profiles of (?) and services
08:34:35 <bwm> ... another interest is list of the sorts of questions that sw allows us toask beyond ontolgoies
08:34:42 <Yoshio> Yoshio has joined #swbp
08:34:43 <bwm> ... e.g. is this persona friend of that person
08:34:50 <bwm> ... helps explain what the sw is about
08:35:03 <fabien_gandon_> Liddy is an W3C Invited Expert
08:35:07 <bwm> ... has a student interested in the sort practices established in uml
08:35:17 <bwm> ... bring power of sw to uml community
08:35:19 <gk> building on practices well established around UML [interesting!]
08:35:36 <bwm> ... works with dublin core community a lot
08:35:54 <bwm> ... would like to help bridge with that community
08:36:01 <bwm> dan connolly:
08:36:08 <bwm> don't expect ot be regular participant in this wg
08:36:12 <bwm> worked on webont
08:36:15 <bwm> tag member
08:36:38 <bwm> ... wg should feel free to pass things to other groups
08:36:52 <bwm> ??? ??? from Keio University
08:37:03 <RRS> Noboru Shimizu
08:37:15 <DanC_jam> Noboru Shimizu <shimizu@intap.or.jp> (Interoperability Technology Association for Information Processing, Japan) 
08:37:19 <bwm> ... committee associated with major japaneese companies
08:37:31 <ivan> ivan has joined #swbp
08:37:41 <bwm> ... objective is to establish effective implementation methos of semantic wevb and promote with industry
08:38:09 <RalphS> Brian Mcbride
08:38:17 <RalphS> ... "very interested in semantic printing"
08:38:24 <gk> Brian's done a "little bit" if hacking in Java (is this British understatemen?)
08:38:26 <bwm> bwm: hp rdfcore
08:38:38 <bwm> eric prud'hommeaux
08:38:49 <bwm> ... team contact for data access working group
08:39:00 <bwm> ... expect wg's to collaborate
08:39:08 <bwm> ... does not expect to be participant
08:39:12 <bwm> Dan Brickley
08:39:17 <bwm> ... w3c team
08:39:21 <bwm> ... chair sw interest group
08:39:35 <bwm> ... co-chair of rdfcore
08:39:57 <bwm> ... semantic web storage
08:40:07 <bwm> ... wished this group had existed two years ago
08:40:17 <bwm> ... so swad-e had a delivery route
08:40:24 <bwm> ... background in philosophy
08:40:33 <bwm> ... involved in many rdf vocabularly initiatives
08:40:54 <bwm> ... got early adopter scars, e.g. versioning and difficulty explaining
08:41:03 <bwm> ... wants to compliment ontological engineering aspect
08:41:23 <bwm> ... how do we help groups not working in industrial or stds group environemnt to establish vocabularies
08:41:36 <bwm> ... hasn't put domain name in his will
08:42:15 <bwm> ... in terms of priorities for group - is "teach a man to fish" thing
08:42:27 <bwm> ... bias for pragmatics
08:42:28 <gk> "Feedback experience relating to difficulty of explaining" ... [interested]
08:42:42 <bwm> ... hopes to join the group
08:43:01 <bwm> ... ralph is the team contact
08:43:19 <bwm> ... other team members will participate as their responsibilities relate to the work of the group
08:43:39 <bwm> ... expect there will be folks contributing to task forces who are not long term working group members
08:44:00 <bwm> guus: what is relationship between interest group and bpwg
08:44:16 <bwm> ... the interest group may be a good source of folks for task forces
08:44:52 <bwm> ... it would be typical for a task force to combine experiences of folks participating in the interst group
08:45:18 <bwm> danbri: role is to ensure there are bridges between the ig and wg
08:45:48 <bwm> ralph asks if anyone objects to him taking photograhphs
08:45:52 <bwm> for the meeting record
08:45:55 <bwm> none were made
08:46:03 <bwm> Jos de Roos: agfo
08:46:07 <bwm> agfa
08:46:15 <bwm> working in technology spike in healthcore
08:46:23 <bwm> ... worked on rdfcore and webont
08:46:25 <Natasha> Natasha has left #swbp
08:46:29 <bwm> ... focussed ontest cases 
08:46:32 <areggiori> areggiori has joined #swbp
08:46:34 <bwm> ... and on running code
08:46:42 <bwm> ... author of Euler
08:46:48 <bwm> ... built in free time
08:46:53 <bwm> Jeremy Carroll:
08:47:02 <bwm> works for hewlett packard
08:47:10 <bwm> ... part of Bristol research labs
08:47:21 <bwm> ... we are medium to long term research function at hp
08:47:38 <bwm> ... lives in livorno in italy - visiting researcher at cnr in pisa
08:47:41 <dirkx> dirkx has joined #swbp
08:47:48 <bwm> wrote apr xml parser
08:48:02 <bwm> joined rdfcore and then webont
08:48:18 <bwm> ... edited rdfcore concepts doc and owl test cases doc
08:48:45 <bwm> ... wold like w3 stats to show page counts of documents
08:49:06 <bwm> ??? ??? of MaDRID univestirty
08:49:14 <fabien_gandon_> Oscar Corcho Universidad de Madrid
08:49:19 <bwm> ... working on methodology for building ontology for a long time
08:49:27 <DanC_jam> Oscar Corcho <ocorcho@fi.upm.es> (Universidad Polit?cnica de Madrid)
08:49:48 <DanC_jam> s/apr xml parser/ARP rdf parser/
08:49:54 <bwm> ... experience transforming from frame based formalisms to description logic
08:49:58 <bwm> part of knowledge web
08:50:07 <danbri> [RalphS, are the proceedings of this meeting expected to be public?]
08:50:17 <bwm> ... recently published book on ontology engineering
08:50:18 <chaalsNCE> [danbri, they already are]
08:50:32 <bwm> ... some parts of the book could be used as input to the group
08:50:39 <bwm> Mike Uschold: Boeing
08:50:41 <chaalsNCE> [... to the extent they have proceeded]
08:50:42 <RalphS> [danbri, yes]
08:50:45 <bwm> medium and long term research
08:51:08 <bwm> ... jon at Boeing is to try to transission maturing technologies into the company
08:51:17 <bwm> ... here to learn and contribute experience
08:51:24 <bwm> Chris Welty IBM
08:51:33 <bwm> Watson research centre in new york
08:51:37 <bwm> ... member of webont
08:51:50 <bwm> ... background in knowledge representation and ontologies
08:52:00 <bwm> ... this is important group
08:52:19 <bwm> ... there is interest in ibm in using owl, but no idea how to use it
08:52:44 <bwm> ... experience in what kinds of approach work for different formalisms
08:53:02 <bwm> .. dave beckett ilrt, univ of Bristol
08:53:14 <bwm> ... most recently working on storage and retrieval
08:53:26 <bwm> .. author of redland, raptor c libraries
08:53:30 <bwm> ... editor of rdf syntax
08:53:38 <bwm> ... maintainer fo rdf resource guide
08:53:52 <bwm> ... have not gone to recommending stuff by is considering it
08:54:09 <bwm> guus: don't want to duplicate effort in this wg
08:54:37 <bwm> Graham Klyne: invinted expert
08:54:45 <bwm> ... background in network protocols
08:54:49 <bwm> ... worked on ccpp
08:54:53 <RalphS> invited expert in RDF Core
08:54:53 <bwm> ... member of rdfcore
08:55:09 <bwm> ... here as an observer, but that may change
08:55:18 <bwm> ... Alberto Regiori - asymantics
08:55:23 <bwm> ... working on rdf software
08:55:30 <bwm> ... looking at swad-europe work
08:55:50 <bwm> ... whcih has been very relevant
08:56:06 <bwm> Chris Bizer Free Univeristy Berlin
08:56:16 <bwm> ... potential econimic impact of sweb
08:56:21 <bwm> ... working on trust layer
08:56:23 <dajobe_> swade europe http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/
08:56:27 <bwm> ... combine different trust mechanisms
08:56:38 <bwm> ... database to rdf mapping
08:56:54 <bwm> ... mapping application specific datamodels to rdf
08:57:10 <bwm> Ivan Herman: w3t amsterdam
08:57:22 <danbri> (Chris also made http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/rdfapi/ which gets RDF into the hands of PHP developers)
08:57:23 <bwm> ... making presentation on semantic web once a month
08:57:28 <bwm> ... observer
08:57:44 <bwm> ... but would like to continue to be an observer to inform presentations
08:57:48 <bwm> ... uses rdf in practice
08:57:56 <bwm> ... in w3c process
08:58:07 <bwm> ... svg pictures generated from rdf
08:58:19 <bwm> ... hope to be involved in annotation of graphics for accessibility
08:58:50 <bwm> Shawn Henry: team contact for accessibilty wg
08:58:57 <bwm> ... overlap between wg charters
08:59:01 <bwm> ... long list of overlaps
08:59:19 <bwm> ... want to share successes and not yet successes
08:59:42 <bwm> Mike Cocus: Mitre
08:59:49 <bwm> consultant to governments
08:59:57 <DanC_jam> Michael Cokus <msc@mitre.org> (MITRE Corporation)
08:59:58 <bwm> ... interested in practical applications
09:00:02 <bwm> ... observer
09:00:21 <bwm> ... was expecting Leo ??? from Mitre to be here
09:00:29 <bwm> Patrick Stickler: Nokia
09:00:34 <ChrisWelty> Leo Obrst
09:00:35 <bwm> rdfcore and data access
09:00:42 <bwm> ... here as an observer
09:00:53 <bwm> ... Nokia active in deploying sw in web architecture
09:01:04 <bwm> ... lots to contribute and hoping for guidance
09:01:20 <bwm> ... Nokia do not expect to have a participant int the wg
09:01:26 <bwm> Libby Miller: ILRT
09:01:33 <bwm> ... swad europe
09:01:43 <bwm> ... calendar task force
09:01:45 <bwm> ... foaf
09:02:04 <bwm> ... interested in yusing multiple vocabularies
09:02:10 <bwm> ... hope to join group
09:02:20 <bwm> Patrick Curran SUN QA group
09:02:23 <bwm> ... observer
09:02:33 <bwm> ... non't know if sun will have participant
09:02:38 <bwm> Phil Tetlow IBM
09:02:49 <fabien_gandon_> Fabien Gandon, INRIA, Observer (for now), http://www-sop.inria.fr/acacia/personnel/Fabien.Gandon/research/
09:02:51 <bwm> ... this work is interesting, important and relevant to commmerce
09:02:57 <bwm> ??? Inria
09:03:05 <bwm> ... reseach in onotlogy engineering
09:03:13 <bwm> ... distributed query solving on semantic nets
09:03:28 <bwm> ... contextual awareness and privacy accesssing web services from mobile devices
09:03:37 <bwm> Chuck Myers Adobe
09:03:45 <bwm> ... observer but looking for participant
09:03:55 <bwm> ... Adobe implements rdf in its products
09:04:05 <bwm> ... interest in std metadata vocabularies
09:04:12 <bwm> ??? Athens Info TEchnology
09:04:16 <bwm> ... observer
09:04:19 <DanC_jam> Thanassis Tiropanis <ttir@ait.edu.gr> (Athens Information Technology (AIT)) 
09:04:31 <bwm> ... interested in sw for composition of web and grid services
09:04:44 <bwm> ... intend to participate
09:04:59 <bwm> ??? w3t
09:05:07 <fabien_gandon_> Marie-Claire Forgue W3C Com.\
09:05:22 <bwm> end of introductions
09:05:41 <danbri> http://www.w3.org/People/all#mcf
09:05:51 <danbri> Marie-Claire Forgue
09:06:00 <bwm> guus: my eyesight is not good, so if I don't see you , please don't be offended
09:06:08 <bwm> Ralph:
09:06:32 <bwm> Ah - Back to Deb Macguiness
09:06:34 <chaalsNCE> [Charles McCathieNevile is following IRC. Works with danbri on SWAD-E, and with Liddy and others]
09:06:40 <bwm> Knowlege systems lab at stanford
09:06:43 <bwm> ... intend to participate
09:06:56 <bwm> ... main goal is to try to helpt he sweb to continue to take off
09:07:06 <bwm> ... working on description logic etc for a long time
09:07:20 <bwm> ... written predecessors to the owl guide
09:07:30 <bwm> back to Ralph
09:07:37 <bwm> Ralph: welcome all
09:07:59 <bwm> ... one of oour deliverables is to bring in other communities
09:08:39 <sdehors> sdehors has joined #swbp
09:08:41 <bwm> ... this session is best practices process and practice
09:08:54 <bwm> ... procedural matters that affect the way we operate
09:08:58 <dajobe_> ralphS shows http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0304-swbp-rrs/
09:09:35 <bwm> ... recommednation track work has different procedures from other forms of publication
09:09:59 <bwm> ... talk about social practices, e.g. tools, expectations of colleauges in w3c
09:10:20 <bwm> ... making work accessible to others
09:10:36 <bwm> ... talk about expectations of other groups as well
09:10:51 <bwm> w3c formal process is in the process document
09:11:11 <JosD_> pointer to Ralph's  talk http://www.w3.org/2004/Talks/0304-swbp-rrs/
09:11:24 <bwm> http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/
09:11:30 <DanC_jam> the process document has a pretty new 1-page summary that I heartily endorse: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/Process-20040205/intro.html#Intro
09:11:47 <bwm> ... important to understand impact of intellectual property process
09:11:55 <bwm> ... we are royalty free
09:12:54 <bwm> ... from a formal point of view, if we choose to create a recommendation, then we need to make sure that we document all the ipr that anyone may have that relates to that
09:13:53 <bwm> ... groundwork for doing a recommendation requires that ac reps approve royalty free process
09:14:57 <bwm> ... this group is authorised to do rec track work
09:15:25 <bwm> ... the new patent policy is new - less than a month old - we are beta testers
09:15:35 <danbri> danbri has joined #swbp
09:16:33 <bwm> as part of signing up for wg, ac rep must agree to royalty free process
09:17:07 <bwm> ???: will bulk of our deliverables be as notes
09:17:15 <bwm> Ralph: my bias is yes
09:17:28 <bwm> ... Notes don't have an explicity ipr process around them
09:17:34 <bwm> ... they do have copyright
09:18:22 <bwm> ... our objective is to increase consensus in the use of these tools
09:18:55 <bwm> ... we will develop consensus amongst ourselves and in the wider community
09:19:21 <bwm> ... Where are we now
09:19:31 <bwm> ... Ralph shows diagram of w3c process
09:20:00 <bwm> ... starts with a need from the community
09:20:16 <bwm> ... arrived at through informal discussions, possibly workshops ...
09:20:33 <Guus> Guus has joined #swbp
09:20:39 <bwm> ... ideas incorporated in an activty proposal reviewed by members of w3c
09:20:56 <bwm> ... the WG gets a formal charter
09:21:24 <bwm> .. takes 2-4 months to charter an activity/working group
09:21:49 <bwm> ... we have pushed the schedule, doing much in parallel so we could meet today
09:22:02 <DanC_jam> (2-4 months is pretty low, I'd say)
09:22:03 <bwm> ... the formal call for participation has only gone out a week ago
09:22:10 <bwm> ... expect more participants
09:22:33 <bwm> ... most w3c wgs are expected to produce working drafts as part of the rec track process
09:22:41 <bwm> ... this group may produce more notes
09:22:48 <bwm> ... which isnot a new process
09:23:04 <bwm> ... there is precedent for how this group operates
09:23:18 <bwm> ... if we choose to publish a recommendation, then we publish several wd's
09:23:33 <danbri> (re WAI, see http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/)
09:23:57 <bwm> ... objective is to build consensus
09:24:27 <bwm> ... there are some practices from which we will select, add etc
09:24:37 <bwm> ... we first form consensus amongst ourselves
09:24:46 <bwm> ... we ask people to participate in our task forces
09:24:58 <bwm> ... work out the best consensus we can arrange locally and then expand outward
09:25:29 <bwm> ... ralph recommends The Art of Concensus
09:25:34 <danbri> ...see http://www.w3.org/Guide/ - The Art of Consensus
09:25:47 <danbri> (W3C Member-only link)
09:25:51 <bwm> ... Social practises
09:26:00 <danbri> (the doc is A Guidebook for W3C Working Group Chairs and other Collaborators)
09:26:25 <bwm> ... we are expected to keep relatively detailed minutes of meetings and telecon
09:26:31 <bwm> ... it is vital to document decisions
09:26:50 <bwm> ... important to document options and useful to document rationale
09:27:01 <bwm> ... helps to build consensus if folsk understand the reasons
09:27:20 <DanC_jam> s/folsk/folks/
09:27:31 <bwm> ... we are using irc to keep notes for this particular meeting
09:27:37 <bwm> ... moving on for shortage of time
09:27:51 <bwm> ... part of what we will discuss is how we expect to achieve our deliverables
09:28:14 <bwm> ... expectations of task forces
09:28:22 <bwm> ... probably will have telecons
09:28:30 <bwm> ... we can choose whether to use irc
09:28:44 <bwm> ... there are tools help make irc more effective
09:28:53 <bwm> ... no time to introduce those
09:29:11 <bwm> ... decided that deliberations of the wg are open to the public
09:29:34 <bwm> ... 'd' dropped from the mailing list name
09:29:48 <bwm> ... the mailing list archive is open to public to read
09:30:27 <bwm> ... until yesterday only folks who had signed up to the wg could post to the list but it is now open
09:30:39 <bwm> ... will a wiki help us
09:30:54 <bwm> ... w3c infrastructure does not formally support wiki's yet
09:31:02 <bwm> ... but we have expereince in swad-e
09:31:13 <bwm> ... we can consider whether to use one
09:31:26 <bwm> ... we do produce formal published documents
09:31:41 <bwm> ... such documents must have a certain style, should validate etc
09:31:51 <bwm> ... there is a set of publication guidelines
09:32:04 <bwm> ... there is a set of best practices for all w3c pages
09:32:21 <bwm> ... we ahve assistance from the communictions team e.g. marie-claire
09:32:30 <bwm> ... they are very hard worked
09:33:23 <bwm> ... new opportunity - we were approached by society for technical communication who offered writers so we might get some help to write the documents
09:33:41 <bwm> ... we may be a suitable group to take advantage of that opportunity
09:34:36 <bwm> guus: we will come back to issues around planning, telecons, f2f etc
09:34:44 <bwm> ... expect to have f2f twice a year
09:34:53 <DanC_jam> fyi, many of the materials mentioned in Ralph's talk are on the WG homepage too. http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/BestPractices/
09:34:55 <bwm> ... get requirments of people on the table
09:35:19 <bwm> .. this pm we will discuss notion of task force
09:35:34 <bwm> break for coffee
09:53:33 <jacco> jacco has joined #swbp
10:09:45 <timbl> timbl has joined #swbp
10:10:28 <timbl> Zakim, what is the passcdoe?
10:10:28 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, timbl.
10:10:28 <timbl> Zakim, what is the passcode?
10:10:28 <Zakim> the conference code is 79273, timbl
10:10:58 <Zakim> +TimBL
10:11:33 <marie> marie has joined #swbp
10:12:00 <DanC_jam> list archive has some input on group priorities: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/thread.html
10:12:05 <DanC_jam> (says Guus)
10:12:09 <db-scribe> Chris Welty
10:12:24 <db-scribe> later...
10:12:33 <db-scribe> Aldo
10:12:55 <timbl> Zakim, who is on the phone?
10:12:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Tp_iles_a, Deb_Mcguinness, TimBL
10:13:14 <areggiori> areggiori has joined #swbp
10:14:13 <db-scribe> Aldo Gangemi, ICST, CNR
10:14:32 <db-scribe> The Three Lightening Issues
10:14:39 <ivan> ivan has joined #swbp
10:14:42 <db-scribe> thinking of priorities for semweb ontologies
10:14:46 <db-scribe> for final users
10:14:50 <db-scribe> 1) Learn logic
10:14:52 <DanC_jam> Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:14:46 GMT
10:14:56 <db-scribe> 2) Learn formal logic
10:15:04 <db-scribe> 3) Learn knowledge acquisiton
10:15:23 <db-scribe> given these three reqs
10:15:45 <db-scribe> the chance of success is None if thet target is semantic web users
10:16:17 <db-scribe> chance is Reasonable, if the expectations turn into requirements for ontology construction tools
10:16:35 <db-scribe> chance = 1 (certainty), if ?? unknown
10:16:39 <db-scribe> Priotities for best practices
10:16:49 <db-scribe> * logic construction patterns (canonical forms)
10:16:58 <db-scribe> - tempaltes, examples, familar interfaces
10:17:14 <db-scribe> * Ontology design patterns (content skeeltons)
10:17:45 <db-scribe> - templates at the content level, step-by-step maieutics and examples
10:17:46 <DanC_jam> maieutics?
10:17:55 <db-scribe> = the techqnique from Socrates
10:18:17 <timbl> The extraction of knowledge you never knew you had"
10:18:22 <libby> libby has joined #swbp
10:18:27 <timbl> :)
10:18:45 <db-scribe> ChrisW - this makes ontology seem like a simple world
10:18:50 <db-scribe> Ardo:
10:18:59 <db-scribe> * Acquaisition workflow managers (smaret assistants)
10:19:15 <db-scribe> - workflow incl maintainance, transformation tools
10:19:27 <DanC_jam> Thu, 04 Mar 2004 10:19:16 GMT
10:19:35 <db-scribe> (above, s/simple world/simple word/)
10:19:43 <areggiori> areggiori has changed the topic to: 
10:19:55 <db-scribe> Ardo shows an ontology requirements diagram
10:20:28 <fabien_gandon_> Maieutics, n. The art of giving birth (i. e., clearness and conviction) to ideas, which are conceived as struggling for birth.
10:20:32 <db-scribe> [I'm not scribing this complex diagram]
10:20:57 <DanC_jam> [I expect the presenter to mail their slides]
10:20:58 <db-scribe> --
10:21:17 <DanC_jam> RRSAgent, pointer?
10:21:17 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-swbp-irc#T10-21-17
10:21:27 <db-scribe> Bernard Vatant
10:21:46 <db-scribe> BV - people like to make their own stuff, ontologies
10:22:00 <db-scribe> .. we should make/define reusable ontologies
10:22:05 <timbl> [A slide mailed to www-archive@w3.org *before* the talk is of course on the web]
10:22:37 <db-scribe> a too generic tech is not so useful
10:22:43 <db-scribe> FOAF's pretty useful
10:22:53 <db-scribe> we should focus on that kind of scope, ground level and sharable
10:22:57 <db-scribe> 2nd point -
10:23:18 <db-scribe> how do i work with my legacy stuff
10:23:21 <db-scribe> 3rd point -
10:23:39 <db-scribe> tension between private and shared knowledge
10:24:46 <db-scribe> customers say tm and ontologies may be cool, but for my intranet stuff, don't care
10:24:56 <DanC_jam> RRSAgent, pointer?
10:24:56 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-swbp-irc#T10-24-56
10:25:26 <db-scribe> Alain Leget, France Telecom
10:25:40 <db-scribe> FT semweb context
10:26:03 <db-scribe> lots of different business needs
10:26:09 <db-scribe> what are the semweb links
10:26:36 <db-scribe> trying to illustrate with concrete use cases and convincing demos
10:26:51 <db-scribe> for this group and our workw ith knowledgeweb need a showcase that shows the value
10:27:07 <db-scribe> don't want to know the logic, ontology detail, just the benefits
10:27:35 <db-scribe> showing the value as quick as possible
10:27:40 <db-scribe> one way, generating use cases
10:27:51 <db-scribe> guidelines and best practices
10:27:59 <db-scribe> and supporting education outside our group
10:28:10 <db-scribe> top 3 priorities
10:28:16 <db-scribe> 1) repository of tools and demo apps
10:28:24 <db-scribe> - well organsied for industry to find ou thie best choice of tools
10:28:40 <db-scribe> - realistic demos, not toy demos
10:28:59 <db-scribe> there are lots of toy ones
10:29:06 <db-scribe> - show it works in a realistic context
10:29:11 <db-scribe> 2) interopability
10:29:22 <db-scribe> - we have lots of needs as a telcom operator
10:29:29 <DanC_jam> interoperability
10:29:32 <db-scribe> - support Bernard - private & public parts
10:29:40 <aldoG> aldoG has joined #swbp
10:30:08 <db-scribe> - ontology mappings, MPEG using with w3c environment, many other examples
10:30:15 <db-scribe> 3) Guidelines
10:30:37 <db-scribe> - for making it plug and play
10:30:44 <db-scribe> - difficucult to get industrial-grade best practices
10:30:54 <db-scribe> maybe some prefer to keep them private?
10:30:58 <db-scribe> - success stories
10:31:04 <db-scribe> we know some in this area
10:31:10 <db-scribe> Marco, FT continues
10:31:16 <db-scribe> FT=France Telecom also
10:31:52 <db-scribe> semantic application compared to semantic web application
10:32:05 <db-scribe> can I use semweb techniques, word web too limited
10:32:11 <db-scribe> inside my organisation
10:32:54 <db-scribe> where do I apply these teqniques, between services?  at the edge, or re-engineer a lot of systems
10:33:23 <db-scribe> afraid that semweb techniniques can only be viewed as exchanging data between two partners, and not of use internally
10:33:53 <db-scribe> for e.g. when is an OO app is better/worse than a semweb app?  no simple response
10:34:04 <db-scribe> Dirk, Asemantics replies
10:34:30 <db-scribe> - more of a presentation problem maybe, or is there something missing?
10:34:40 <db-scribe> - like can they use xml and not do graphs?
10:34:49 <db-scribe> Marco, FT:
10:35:33 <db-scribe> - have to be convinced we can 1) build big, critical programs with these techniques 
10:35:42 <db-scribe> Mike, Boeing - 
10:35:53 <db-scribe> 2nd semantic & semanticweb
10:36:08 <db-scribe> there may not be any link anywhere with some semantic web app - on the web or off
10:36:16 <timbl> The chief benefit of semantic web is reuse. Resuse of data -- use across applications -- only pays off when you have several applicstions involved.  resue of design -- the fact that ontolgy work is about real things rather than programming artifacts -- pays off as you design and especially when you redesign an application.
10:36:23 <db-scribe> Dirk, Asemantics -
10:36:41 <db-scribe> - semweb tech you see triples at the core, but in the apps you find other things like provenance
10:36:55 <db-scribe> - so if you are on best practice side, you may be adding extra elements
10:37:32 <db-scribe> - maybe one of the outreach things could be documentating where you practically have to go off the path, in order to build industrial-strength semweb apps
10:38:04 <db-scribe> Libby Milller, University of Bristol:
10:38:41 <db-scribe> 1) examples and tests where appropraite
10:38:44 <db-scribe> can be very useful
10:38:52 <db-scribe> 2) identification of things
10:38:58 <db-scribe> in particular  people, events
10:39:11 <db-scribe> people like to assign uris for people, we've been using the owl:inverseFunctionalProperty
10:39:17 <db-scribe> ways to write this down would be useful
10:39:23 <db-scribe> 3) for newbies, pointers to existing vocabs
10:39:31 <db-scribe> how to find them, mechanisms for reusing them and mixing themj
10:39:54 <db-scribe> Guus - how suitable is FOAF as a semweb demo app?  for convincing outsiders?
10:40:06 <db-scribe> LM - seems to convince people qutie well, open
10:40:21 <DanC_jam> on foaf as a demo: it has nice eye-candy SVG tools. but it gets hash-vs-slash wrong.
10:40:38 <db-scribe> LM - people do get it as a compelling app, also 'cos it is about people
10:40:40 <timbl> [it uses no hash in its namespace which is an architectural problem  and a bad example]
10:40:57 <db-scribe> danbri - have been trying to explain rdf for years, find it easier for foaf
10:41:05 <db-scribe> LM - about things in the world rather than on the web
10:41:08 <shawn> shawn has joined #swbp
10:41:19 <db-scribe> jjc - presentational issue with FOAF, sometimes feels rather geeky
10:41:31 <DanC_jam> ralph, would you please project http://esw.w3.org/topic/RdfCalendarPresentation when it's my turn?
10:41:50 <db-scribe> jjc=Jeremy Carroll, HP
10:42:07 <db-scribe> Ivan Herman - 
10:42:20 <db-scribe> foaf is fun yeah, but what are the big business oriented apps?
10:42:26 <db-scribe> this is not one
10:42:46 <db-scribe> one I usually refer to is Baby Care (ref to AC meeting in Yokohama)
10:43:06 <db-scribe> Guus asks Ivan to talk about this later
10:43:16 <timbl> [I note that there  are already several FOAF-oriented commercial sites, one of which exprts FOAF]
10:43:20 <db-scribe> Liddy neville -
10:43:31 <db-scribe> separate the general from the specific; foaf is a general class of things
10:43:39 <timbl> Zakim, mute me
10:43:39 <Zakim> TimBL should now be muted
10:43:53 <db-scribe> try to suggest that there is a list of the general to separate from the specific
10:43:56 <timbl> zakim, mute Deb
10:43:56 <Zakim> Deb_Mcguinness should now be muted
10:44:45 <db-scribe> ?, INTAP -
10:45:04 <db-scribe> 1) intelligent home appliance
10:45:23 <db-scribe> 2) japanese cultrure reflected tech
10:45:26 <DanC_jam> Noboru Shimizu <shimizu@intap.or.jp> (Interoperability Technology Association for Information Processing, Japan) . (handy player scorecard: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tp2004/registrants#webont)
10:45:29 <db-scribe> 3) study and develop sem web services
10:45:34 <db-scribe> ^- background items
10:45:37 <db-scribe> priorities:
10:45:42 <db-scribe> 1) make an rdf/owl portal
10:45:58 <db-scribe> 2) develop and rdf/owl hierarchy system
10:46:07 <db-scribe> 3) somthing like semantic internationalization
10:46:36 <gk> Re advantages of FOAF... maybe Danny Ayers XOW (W6) work also in this style?  cf. http://semtext.org/2004-02/slides/
10:46:44 <bijan> bijan has joined #swbp
10:47:01 <bijan> RSSAgent, where am I?
10:47:10 <db-scribe> Chuck Myers, adobe
10:47:13 <DanC_jam> RRSAgent, pointer?
10:47:13 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-swbp-irc#T10-47-13
10:47:26 <danbri> I forgot /me'd IRC comments unlogged. From earlier: /me notes that Jeff Bezos from Amazon was in the etech foaf session audience, but didn't get to talk to him
10:47:47 <db-scribe> adobe's been implementing semantics on media objects in our projects
10:47:54 <db-scribe> products
10:48:02 <db-scribe> been working on business use cases
10:48:23 <db-scribe> ^- is 1)
10:48:36 <db-scribe> 2) development of, registration of vocabs to make people's learning curve easier
10:49:03 <db-scribe> 3) answer why you want to express it in rdf?, isn't xml good enough?
10:49:15 <db-scribe> - been asked by 4 groups available, mostly at the database end
10:49:33 <db-scribe> - the scope of the group needs to expand a little
10:49:56 <gk> Why isn't XML good enough?  After long discussion last night, I think the answer may be "RDF solves the mixed namespace problem" (cf. yesterday's plenary discussion)
10:50:06 <db-scribe> Chuck outlines detailed workflow and semweb may apply
10:50:15 <db-scribe> good to have some of those people participating in the WG
10:50:19 <DanC_jam> (it solves an interesting part of the namespace mixing problem, anyway)
10:50:22 <bijan> gk, er...no :)
10:50:45 <db-scribe> Dan Brickley, W3C/ILRT:
10:50:49 <bijan> I guess I don't have a crisp understanding of the mixed namespace problem
10:50:54 <DanC_jam> Guus: I intend to follow up with you, Chuck Meyers
10:51:04 <db-scribe> main rdf specs finished
10:51:06 <bijan> RDF doesn't *have* a mixing namespace problem...but it doesn't have namespaces
10:51:18 <db-scribe> lots of stuff for BPD potentially
10:51:31 <db-scribe> lets focus on gatherhing storeis not just use cases
10:51:44 <db-scribe> talk to earliy adopters, kr old terms and newcomers
10:51:57 <db-scribe> such as if newcomers read stuff and felt stupid, find out what was going non
10:52:00 <db-scribe> on
10:52:04 <db-scribe> wishlist
10:52:04 <timbl> Gk:  When, really thhe answer is that SemWeb is a more pwerful technology in many ways. But the fact that is has solved the ns mixing problem is a big thing -- in tha XML technologies which don't discuss what thinsg mean are incapable fo solving that problem generically.
10:52:09 <db-scribe> 1) thesauri on the sw using rdf/owl
10:52:24 <db-scribe> 2) what you put at a namsespace uri  - techniques for useful info behind them - rdf/owl/xjhtml
10:52:28 <gk> bijan, sure that's another way of expressing it.  But, from yesterday's discussion, XML *does* have some issues with composing documents using different namespaces.
10:52:30 <db-scribe> 3) [too slow]
10:52:52 <DanC_jam> (please don't paste the text in. please mail the slides)
10:53:33 <dlm> if there is a url for slides though, that is good to paste in this log
10:53:42 <db-scribe> there is no url, that's the point
10:53:48 <bijan> gk, it's not an other way of expressing it :) It's expressing something different!
10:54:12 <db-scribe> danbri explains thes stuff
10:54:25 <timbl> And that is why it has solved the namespaec mixing problem.
10:54:30 <db-scribe> danbri 2) vocab documentation
10:54:37 <db-scribe> .. seems like a job for the TAG
10:54:54 <db-scribe> the rest is on the mythical slides
10:55:20 <db-scribe> go out see what people have done
10:55:25 <db-scribe> 3) versioning
10:55:35 <db-scribe> vocab versioning
10:55:50 <bijan> Look, I think it's just an error to say you've solved a problem if you merely redefine it *without* demonstrating that your redefinition meets the needs of the people with the problem
10:56:02 <db-scribe> costs of changing, would like to see thoughts on changing vocab and costs
10:56:18 <DanC_jam> (hmm... can you measure the level of agreement between what a "namespace document" says and what the data files say about those terms? we do a little bit of that in RDF calendar)
10:56:21 <db-scribe> Jos De Roo, AGFA-Gevaert
10:56:23 <timbl> Bijan, you talking about the ns mixing problem?
10:56:23 <danbri> OK how to rescue that from powerpoint? maybe I'll cut and paste...
10:56:26 <bijan> Such moves tend to irritate the people with the problem. Rightly I think.
10:56:27 <JosD_> pointer http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0006.html
10:56:30 <bijan> timbl, yes
10:56:44 <DanC_jam> danbri, pls mail to www-archive or swbp
10:56:57 <db-scribe> JdR -
10:57:18 <db-scribe> not necessary to re-invent things, taking 10s of  years
10:57:34 <db-scribe> working with helping work with when the are overlapping
10:57:48 <db-scribe> connecting them, a case with interoperability
10:57:51 <danbri> danbri slides: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2004Mar/0017.html
10:58:15 <db-scribe> 2) test results
10:58:19 <bijan> I mean, in some important sense, XML can solve the mixed namespace problem the same way RDF does: Don't use namespaces! Done! :)
10:58:26 <db-scribe> an extension or an ontology for a more clafieid output
10:58:45 <db-scribe> 3)
10:59:06 <db-scribe> pracitcal use case
10:59:20 <db-scribe> believe it should be hands on, bottom-up
10:59:35 <db-scribe> semantic web is to some extent webizing real world problems
10:59:39 <db-scribe> Guus -
10:59:57 <db-scribe> interested in formal pub of medical vocabularies?
11:00:03 <bijan> RDF, or OWL at least, *has* some vocabulary mixing problems, e.g., combining two owl lite documents can produce an owl full...Surprise!
11:00:22 <db-scribe> discussion of public/pay for medical vocabs
11:00:24 <gk> bijan, I think that needs more explanation, just as my terse assertion also does.  I'm reluctant to continue this debate here, but happy to engage later.
11:00:24 <timbl> [The namespace mixing problem: When you have two independently designed XML langauges each with define semantcis, how do you define the semantics of a document which uses a a mixture of the two langauges?  RDF solution: constrain the XML langauges to be RDF.  The semantics of the mixed langauge document is the set of triples defined by RDF]
11:00:39 <db-scribe> Guus - could discuss later today
11:01:06 <bijan> timbl, pifft. That's no solution. What are the semantics of a mixed namespace document in xml? The infoset
11:01:13 <db-scribe> jjc - approaches could be mapping into owl
11:01:28 <db-scribe> or the other way, is to describe methodologies to enable anyone to do it
11:01:31 <db-scribe> Guus
11:01:37 <bijan> RDF semantics doesnt' strongly constrain the meaning of RDF documents
11:02:00 <db-scribe> +1
11:02:19 <db-scribe> jjc -
11:02:43 <db-scribe> hp has put effort into jena, rdf core, webont ..
11:03:05 <db-scribe> at present putting more effort into apps and Deployment, swbp'D'
11:03:17 <db-scribe> looking for best practies to make better apps, deployment
11:03:40 <db-scribe> as a W3C WG, it is important to link with other W3C activities, WGs
11:03:44 <db-scribe> better links with the XML world
11:03:49 <danbri> [doh, i forgot one of my hobbyhorses: find w3c-internal customers; but jjc saying something close]
11:04:14 <db-scribe> talking to people who say XML is the answer
11:04:34 <db-scribe> internationalization is very weak
11:04:39 <db-scribe> ... in semweb
11:04:48 <DanC_jam> jjc: I18N of SemWeb technologies is somewhat weak.
11:04:51 <timbl> [specifically?]
11:05:01 <db-scribe> Guus - language thesauri?
11:05:06 <db-scribe> jjc - a small step
11:05:26 <db-scribe> ... more specifically rfc3306bis - next generation of xml:lang tag 
11:05:42 <db-scribe> ... much clearer model of languages, dialects, scripts
11:05:54 <DanC_jam> RFC 3066 - Tags for the Identification of Languages http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc3066.html
11:06:18 <db-scribe> Dirkx - there are also practical things you can do to work in an internationalized context, good to record them
11:06:20 <danbri> re 3066 bis, also found http://xml.coverpages.org/ni2003-11-14-a.html when googled
11:06:24 <DanC_jam> IETF "Best Current Practice" Jan 2001
11:06:25 <db-scribe> chuck, adobe - ...
11:06:44 <db-scribe> jjc - more immediate importance in the xhtml work
11:06:53 <db-scribe> .. the W3C xml schema datatypes
11:07:01 <db-scribe> ... basics in rdf datatyping only done
11:07:32 <db-scribe> jjc 3) collaboration vs compettion in deployment
11:07:34 <RalphS> RFC3066bis
11:07:36 <gk> RFC3066bis:  latest I-D announcement: http://eikenes.alvestrand.no/pipermail/ietf-languages/2004-February/001721.html
11:08:04 <db-scribe> jjc - important thing is to make the semweb succeed, make the pie bigger for later
11:08:06 <RalphS> http://www.alvestrand.no/mailman/listinfo/ietf-languages
11:08:11 <db-scribe> .. important now to be in collaborative mode
11:08:44 <DanC_jam> CW: <humor>That's beautiful, Jeremy... sob</humor>
11:09:02 <db-scribe> jjc .. sharing thet semantics in particular ontologies
11:09:18 <db-scribe> clearly there is tension in sharing private data but there is more value in sharing
11:09:48 <RalphS> Oscar Corcho
11:10:03 <DanC_jam> Oscar Corcho <ocorcho@fi.upm.es> (Universidad Polit?cnica de Madrid) -- http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35125/tp2004/registrants#webont
11:10:06 <db-scribe> motivated by best practices
11:10:25 <db-scribe> some FAQs - how do I do this?
11:10:50 <db-scribe> asked on various email lists
11:11:07 <DanC_jam> "how can I do defaults" yes, that's a FAQ. an answer from W3C Semantic Web Advanced Development: http://www.w3.org/2003/Talks/0520-www-tf1-d1-reach/slide5-0.html
11:11:44 <db-scribe> could provide some guidelines, improving the OWL guide
11:11:49 <db-scribe> (These are all OWL questions)
11:11:50 <gk> I think the OWL docs are v good, but I still don't feel that I know how to design an inference in OWL.  So I think Oscar is spot on here.
11:12:00 <DanC_jam> yeah verily.
11:13:01 <db-scribe> some things are in the owl docs, some things not so clear and hard to find
11:13:12 <DanC_jam> "can I use XML Schema derived datatypes?" another excellent example of a FAQ I'd like this WG to work on.
11:13:14 <db-scribe> 2) interoperability - frames vs description logics
11:13:38 <db-scribe> transforming to/from frames / OWL/DL
11:14:08 <db-scribe> several questions of what is good practice
11:15:13 <db-scribe> interop between tools at EON2003, at ISWC semantic web conf found very bad
11:15:28 <gk> This might be a good use for a SWBP WG wiki?
11:15:35 <db-scribe> new workshop to find out at EON2004
11:15:36 <DanC_jam> I hope so, gk
11:15:39 <db-scribe> 3) ontology repository
11:15:55 <db-scribe> we've build a reference ontology in ontoweb work
11:16:03 <db-scribe> for describing ontology tools and ontologies
11:16:14 <db-scribe> apps, ontologies, lajnguages,  methodologies
11:16:19 <fabien_gandon_> URL of the repository : http://babage.dia.fi.upm.es/ontoweb/wp1/OntoRoadMap/index.html
11:16:38 <db-scribe> Mike Uschold, Boeing
11:16:49 <db-scribe> some from Jim Hendler
11:16:55 <db-scribe> "semantics" term, loaded, semweb also
11:17:14 <db-scribe> WG should come up with a statement, or point at several if there are >1
11:17:20 <gk> Thinks, re wiki, just slightly off-topic:  can we use sweb technologies to improve wiki indexing?  I find wikis are good if you know what's there, but not always easy to discover topics.
11:17:24 <db-scribe> 2) where does meaning come from?
11:17:25 <danbri> [fair point imho]
11:17:38 <danbri> [fair point imho --- re documenting senses of 'semantics' we're buying into]
11:18:06 <db-scribe> from physical world, words
11:18:19 <db-scribe> good to make something in this space, may be research
11:18:22 <db-scribe> 3) more friendly syntax
11:18:38 <db-scribe> answering JimH's point
11:18:44 <db-scribe> graphical representation for OWL
11:18:55 <db-scribe> see network inference's tool as a start
11:19:02 <DanC_jam> graphical representation: hear hear! some of my own work: http://www.w3.org/2001/02pd/
11:19:03 <db-scribe> 4) semantic interopability
11:19:14 <db-scribe> 5) clean up the mess about languages and tools, owl/full/lite/dl
11:19:16 <db-scribe> - what a mess
11:19:28 <db-scribe> 6) hybrid reasoning
11:19:36 <db-scribe> reasoning in multiple modes
11:19:50 <db-scribe> for e.g. DL can't do some things such as arithmetic
11:20:04 <ChrisWelty> pointer: http://esw.w3.org/topic/BestPracticesChris
11:20:05 <db-scribe> how to call out to other engines and still do ontological reasoning?
11:20:13 <db-scribe> Chris Welty, IBM:
11:20:21 <DanC_jam> hybrid reasoning is another thing we're researching. (we = W3C SemWeb AD, esp. MIT CSAIL)
11:21:02 <db-scribe> db-scribe has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-SWBPD
11:21:09 <db-scribe> 1) jobs for BPWG
11:21:21 <DanC_jam> http://esw.w3.org/topic/BestPracticesChris
11:21:49 <db-scribe> not just any practice
11:21:55 <DanC_jam> hmm... "we're not cheerleaders" -- I disagree.
11:22:15 <db-scribe> our job is to solve common problems
11:22:30 <db-scribe> tests not usually best practices
11:23:00 <db-scribe> at least as in OWL, more like use cases
11:23:08 <db-scribe> 2) ontology patterns
11:23:18 <RalphS> Chris: test cases are not necessarily the best documentation of the way to use the language
11:23:25 <db-scribe> points to PartWhole wiki page
11:23:30 <db-scribe> as an example pattern
11:23:40 <danbri> [re hybrid reasoning, yes agree important tech topic -- esp when to reason about documents/provenence, then dip into the 'worldview of that document'; ie provenance/src in queries, apis etc]
11:24:01 <db-scribe> 3) documenting worst practices
11:24:04 <db-scribe> i.e. modelling pitfalls
11:24:24 <db-scribe> in particular the examples in the OWL guide
11:24:47 <timbl> [I hope this group keeps close enough contact with users to have users, ontology deevlopers or prospective ones,  come to the group to share experiences]
11:24:56 <DanC_jam> (in wiki culture, worst practices are called AntiPatterns. http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?AntiPatterns)
11:25:11 <RalphS> Dave Beckett:
11:25:20 <RalphS> 1. please, please, please explain the OWL layers
11:25:26 <RalphS> 2. tools and applications lists
11:25:36 <RalphS> 3. textual RDF syntax; see my turtle
11:26:15 <db-scribe> Dan Connolly, W3C:
11:26:48 <db-scribe> show http://esw.w3.org/topic/RdfCalendarPresentation
11:26:54 <db-scribe> calendars
11:27:22 <db-scribe> event description, hey using rdf
11:27:40 <db-scribe> started, say as a toy, but now there is a commercial product - EventSherpa
11:27:43 <db-scribe> oops
11:27:52 <timbl> [me thinks BPWG should keep a hit-list of teh top 10 common ontologies eg time, place, people, docs, money]
11:27:58 <danbri> ['good oops' :]
11:28:03 <db-scribe> legacy point- shows iCalendar
11:28:15 <db-scribe> how do I deal in the semweb?
11:28:23 <libby> +1 timbl
11:28:34 <db-scribe> hopeful design patterns work out, will be worked on here
11:28:54 <db-scribe> danc points to http://esw.w3.org/topic/ThingsVersusTheirNames
11:29:08 <db-scribe> "learning to think formally 101"
11:29:27 <dlm> +2 timbl    there may be a number of ways to count the top 10 also - daml.org provides some ways
11:29:29 <db-scribe> ugly details
11:29:39 <db-scribe> such as '-' in dates
11:29:49 <db-scribe> DanC - design patterns come from real work
11:29:54 <db-scribe> .. hppe they end up here
11:30:00 <db-scribe> rdf and xhtml, more later
11:30:17 <db-scribe> Yoshio
11:30:23 <db-scribe> NEC/W3c:
11:30:35 <danbri> (http://www.w3.org/People/all#yoshio)
11:30:41 <db-scribe> an educational portal site collecting real world scenarios
11:30:44 <db-scribe> ^have
11:30:50 <db-scribe> .. that make people in the company get involved
11:30:59 <db-scribe> Ivan Herman, W3C:
11:31:04 <db-scribe> questions -
11:31:12 <db-scribe> Who produces the metadata? where does it come from?
11:31:18 <Zakim> -Deb_Mcguinness
11:31:20 <db-scribe> separate guidelines for authoring tools
11:31:43 <db-scribe> (ref Danny Weitzman)
11:31:58 <timbl> Weitzner
11:32:00 <db-scribe> Trust, rdf and xml signature - can be addressed here?
11:32:10 <RalphS> s/Weitzman/Weitzner/
11:32:18 <db-scribe> 3) General praticles on programming apps?
11:32:20 <fabien_gandon_> +1 on "where the meta-data comes from?" recurrent question 
11:32:20 <db-scribe> practices
11:32:52 <Yoshio> Yoshio is a W3C fellow from Matsushita Electric Industrial (Panasonic)
11:32:56 <DanC_jam> re time/place/money, see http://esw.w3.org/topic/SeedApplications
11:33:22 <db-scribe> ---
11:33:34 <db-scribe> Ben Adida, Creative Commons
11:33:48 <db-scribe> - http://creativecommons.org/
11:34:10 <gk> re "where does it come from"...  Partly, by exposing existing data sources as RDF?  (e.g. existing RDBs) Is there likely to be any SWBP coverage of this?  It seems an important topic to me?
11:34:11 <db-scribe> "Creative Commons and the Semantic Web" - Ben Adida
11:34:50 <db-scribe> BenA:
11:34:56 <db-scribe> Intro to CC
11:35:12 <areggiori> +1 gk
11:35:42 <libby> (a lengthier version of my top 3: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0017.html)
11:35:44 <db-scribe> CC wants to enable striking a balance of rights on content with licenses to share
11:36:11 <db-scribe> geared towards sharing, assuming that - talking about credit, non/commercial, derivative works etc.
11:36:27 <db-scribe> just added a Sampling License
11:36:58 <db-scribe> each license has 3 forms - human readbale deed, lawyer-readble legal code and machine-readable digital code
11:37:44 <db-scribe> working hard translating it not just languages, but cross jurisdictional
11:38:27 <db-scribe> the digital code, metadata is RDF
11:38:30 <RalphS> BenA: cross-jurisdictional: e.g. what does "attribution" mean
11:38:47 <DanC_jam> "what happens when you take a piece of content in license X and one in licnese Y an combine them?" -- Ben. I've done some N3 rules scribbling on that problem.
11:39:07 <db-scribe> we tend to tell people to explain it to those who want to, others we just say put on their web page
11:39:16 <db-scribe> BenA: shows the CC rdf license validato thing
11:39:46 <db-scribe> at http://yergler.net/projects/ccvalidator/
11:40:25 <db-scribe> the web form makes some html that you are meant to paste into your page
11:40:50 <db-scribe> some software vendors such as movable type (MT) allow you to say CC licensing applies, and write that using the guidelines
11:41:32 <db-scribe> also have moz plugin
11:41:45 <db-scribe> - http://www.yergler.net/projects/mozcc/
11:42:02 <danbri> [http://www.kanzaki.com/docs/sw/ -> http://www.kanzaki.com/docs/sw/ccm.html has Japanese info re Creative Commons and RDF/SW]
11:42:05 <DanC_jam> mozilla license plug-in... ooh... ah...
11:42:15 <db-scribe> mozCC - an XPI
11:42:18 <DanC_jam> Ben: "mozcc" is the google keyword
11:42:30 <db-scribe> urls are all above, DanC
11:42:48 <db-scribe> demo of RDF-enhanced search on CC
11:42:59 <db-scribe> at http://search.creativecommons.org/
11:43:27 <DanC_jam> Ben searches for "eiffel tower" with option "I want to make commercial use" checked.
11:43:30 <DanC_jam> many oohs and oaahs.
11:43:35 <db-scribe> looks for eifeill tower, returning CC licensed content
11:43:38 <RalphS> BenA: CC search just released today
11:43:47 <db-scribe> and mozCC popup shows the licenses and works, rdf
11:44:02 <db-scribe> *applause*
11:44:12 <db-scribe> How can CC help the semanitic web?
11:44:15 <fabien_gandon_> lots of things said here about guidelines and pedagogical material are close to the objectives of the e-Learning WP of Knowledge Web : http://www.learninglab.de/deutsch/projekte/knowledgeweb.html
11:44:24 <db-scribe> semblance of a conflict between
11:44:40 <db-scribe> publishers control metadata (us), and others extract it (google etc.)
11:44:54 <db-scribe> who don't believe you should be able to talk about your own page
11:45:23 <db-scribe> Licensing metadata is only semantic web, nobody else can say about it.
11:45:36 <db-scribe> the rest of world can't do it
11:46:14 <db-scribe> CC can provide the users
11:46:20 <db-scribe> >1 miliion licensed pages
11:46:32 <db-scribe> shows several big projects 
11:46:35 <db-scribe> What does CC need?
11:47:06 <db-scribe> BenA - we will continue to take RDF tech frfom W3C
11:47:15 <db-scribe> we put rdf in comments now in html, no other way right now
11:47:45 <db-scribe> uncomfortable with this, but it worked to get 1.2M pages
11:48:04 <db-scribe> CC want simple howtos and clear recommendations
11:48:10 <danbri> hmm, maybe i/we/... should revisit the 'does it make sense to use creative commons when publishing one's foaf, calendar data etc' question
11:48:20 <db-scribe> Using owl?  don't know.  If so, we want the 1 page thbat tells you how.
11:48:24 <bwm> q+ to ask if its important that rdf in xthml is a rec
11:48:37 <db-scribe> Tools - semweb enabled browsers
11:48:42 <db-scribe> working with adobe on XMP for CC
11:48:48 <ChrisWelty> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html
11:48:52 <ChrisWelty> for rdf in xml
11:49:18 <db-scribe> search engine for CC, but more generically for semweb?
11:49:28 <RalphS> [I propose Brian's question be deferred to tomorrow morning slot]
11:49:30 <DanC_jam> "This is an internal working draft." -- http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html
11:49:31 <db-scribe> Want guidance and help on these items.
11:49:36 <danbri> [definitely agree re importance of crawling/harvesting]
11:49:40 <bwm> q-
11:50:31 <db-scribe> Guus - this afternnoon discuss via the charter areas
11:50:43 <db-scribe> lunch, back 14:00 GMT+1
11:51:14 <Zakim> -TimBL
11:53:46 <Zakim> -Tp_iles_a
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13:00:57 <dajobe> danbri slides http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0016.html
13:01:17 <dajobe> libby miller top3 andintro http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-swbp-wg/2004JanMar/0017.html
13:03:37 <timbl> Zakim, who is on the phone?
13:03:37 <Zakim> On the phone I see no one
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13:14:34 <Zakim> +TPIlesA
13:15:35 <RalphS> Guus: Natasha Noie & Jim Hendler have asked to join by telecon after 17h00
13:16:05 <fabien_gandon> fabien_gandon has joined #swbp
13:16:06 <em> em has joined #swbp
13:16:39 <Zakim> +EMiller
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13:16:54 <RalphS> Guus: the way we're planning to do work in Task Forces is new in W3C WGs
13:17:08 <RalphS> ... we have a range of things we want to cover, a range of expertise
13:17:39 <gk> gk has joined #swbp
13:17:53 <RalphS> ... when we think a subject is important, we find 'sponsors' within the WG to chair a TF and edit documents, and can recruit outside
13:18:09 <JosD> JosD has joined #swbp
13:18:37 <ChrisWelty> !-5s^Noie^Noy^
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13:20:51 <RalphS> Guus: typical task force size expected to be 4 to 8 people
13:20:58 <RalphS> ... typical duration 4 to 6 months
13:21:16 <Zakim> +TimBL
13:21:29 <timbl> Zakim, mute me
13:21:29 <Zakim> TimBL should now be muted
13:21:45 <timbl> Zakim, unmute me
13:21:45 <Zakim> TimBL should no longer be muted
13:22:08 <timbl> Zakim, mute me
13:22:08 <Zakim> TimBL should now be muted
13:22:46 <RalphS> Guus: RDF in XHTML is in the charter
13:23:05 <RalphS> ... converting thesaurii to the Web
13:23:28 <RalphS> Jeremy: will a Task Force have Task Force telecons?
13:23:30 <RalphS> Guus: I prefer not
13:23:40 <dirkx> dirkx has joined #swbp
13:23:47 <RalphS> ... important that everything stay in the public and WG participants stay involved
13:24:30 <RalphS> ... planning biweekly telecons (biweekly == every two weeks)
13:24:53 <em> zakim, who is here?
13:24:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see TPIlesA, EMiller, TimBL (muted)
13:24:54 <Zakim> On IRC I see dirkx, aldoG, JosD, gk, areggiori, marie, em, fabien_gandon, bwm, RalphS, Yoshio, DanC_jam, libby, dajobe, ChrisWelty, chaalsNCE, bijan, timbl, sdehors, dlm, Zakim,
13:24:56 <Zakim> ... RRSAgent
13:25:14 <RalphS> Chuck Myers: in SVG, a subset of the WG goes to work on something and reports back to the WG
13:25:35 <RalphS> Guus: the main difference here is we're not producing one spec
13:26:07 <RalphS> ... in WebOnt we used tags in mail subject lines to make mail filtering easier
13:27:06 <danbri_dna> danbri_dna has joined #swbp
13:27:11 <RalphS> Jeremy: in WebOnt test case development it was difficult to figure out who was actually in a subgroup except by looking at mail
13:27:48 <RalphS> DanBri: agree with working completely in public
13:28:00 <DanC_jam> when it comes to organizing to do work, I lean toward "he who does the work makes the rules"
13:28:11 <RalphS> ... in a few cases, e.g. calendaring, there are existing public fora
13:28:41 <RalphS> ... consider using exising fora where appropriate
13:29:01 <RalphS> ... some task forces have longer life
13:29:05 <ChrisWelty> q+ to suggest we move on
13:29:15 <RalphS> Guus: want to avoid long-lived task forces; if something isn't working out we should stop it
13:29:32 <RalphS> ... publish early results
13:29:38 <Zakim> ChrisWelty, you wanted to suggest we move on
13:29:55 <ivan> ivan has joined #swbp
13:30:10 <danbri_dna> (if that ok)
13:30:14 <RalphS> Focus 1: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/2003/wstf
13:30:17 <RalphS> oops
13:30:23 <danbri_dna> guus: use of 'ontology' in charter, could've said 'vocabulary'
13:30:27 <RalphS> Focus 1: Supporting initiatives for publishing ontologies / vocabularies
13:30:33 <danbri_dna> ...lightweight ontos
13:30:47 <danbri_dna> ...what we put in the charter here, what i had in list as one of the early things we could work on...
13:31:03 <danbri_dna> ...an early wg note on conversion of existing representations of thesauri into rdf/owl format
13:31:13 <danbri_dna> ...rdf/owl ie any combination of the two that fits the requirements best
13:31:18 <danbri_dna> ...eg. rdfs, or extended to use owl
13:31:46 <danbri_dna> ...people wanting to port their stuff to this format... so they know what to do...
13:32:17 <danbri_dna> ...some things in this charter were invented by a small group of people, useful to discuss it in this group
13:32:35 <danbri_dna> JosD: I believe it is fairly ambitious to convert large existing std vocabs
13:33:06 <danbri_dna> ...whereas i don't see a real alternative, i'm happy to support this, but it is very ambitious to claim a full conversion of say a ... vocab
13:33:15 <danbri_dna> ChrisWelty: i don't think that's guus' goal
13:33:23 <danbri_dna> ChrisWelty: focus on methods...
13:33:29 <danbri_dna> guus: i've noticed ppl have already done this
13:33:40 <danbri_dna> ...eg wordnet, + work in swad-europe (on thesaurus metamodel)
13:33:45 <danbri_dna> ...for wordnet, several efforts
13:33:59 <danbri_dna> ...we in Amsterdam have done the AAT, Getty, ulan, iconclass
13:34:06 <danbri_dna> ...[something re iso stds]
13:34:12 <danbri_dna> ...have seen a few others, eg 
13:34:16 <danbri_dna> RalphS: FAO thes
13:34:25 <danbri_dna> guus: fisheries
13:34:43 <libby> http://www.w3c.rl.ac.uk/SWAD/thesaurus.html <- swad-e europe thesauri work
13:34:45 <danbri_dna> em: /me comments aren't recorded; I suggest [foo bar] as out-of-band asides if you want on record
13:34:53 <RalphS> s/RalphS/Aldo/
13:34:59 <DanC_jam> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreeExamples
13:35:01 <danbri_dna> [hmm the em:/ comment cryptic sorry]
13:35:04 <danbri_dna> ...
13:35:12 <danbri_dna> guus: are there people here with particular views?
13:35:17 <danbri_dna> RalphS: i see two approaches to this
13:35:25 <danbri_dna> ...look at specfic thesauri, eg wordnet
13:35:40 <danbri_dna> ...perhaps the way it is done now doesn't take advantage of all that could be done
13:35:48 <DanC_jam> (I'm not clear whether this is about thesauri in particular or data representations in general, but I'll wait for volutneers who want to do this work, whatever it is, to let me know.)
13:36:02 <danbri_dna> ...or do it in terms of classes of thesaurus
13:36:09 <danbri_dna> ...which of those two?
13:36:18 <danbri_dna> guus: the 1st issue we cannot do here just in the wg
13:36:22 <danbri_dna> ...better to collab with the vocab owner
13:36:33 <danbri_dna> ...maybe that is too strong a statement...
13:36:41 <DanC_jam> (hmm... what's the shortest path from here to the WordNet developers?)
13:36:47 <danbri_dna> ...but i don't see the wg doing actual work on conversion unless in collaboration
13:37:18 <danbri_dna> RalphS: that doesn't preclude us approaching them
13:37:28 <chaalsNCE> [/me suggests that one of the valuable things is taking projects and writing them up a lot. Explaining at levels from "here's the schema, go for it" through "here's each piece as an example" to "here's how we decided to do the model, the alternatives and the implications..."]
13:37:33 <aldoG> at cnr-loa we are in touch with WordNet developers and we are working on an OntoWordNet
13:37:51 <danbri_dna> guus: could restrict this activity... do it so it worked for stuff along lines of the ISO std
13:38:08 <danbri_dna> ...you could have scoping issues such as inclusion of multilingual issues
13:38:16 <bwm> q+
13:38:35 <danbri_dna> jjc: a fundamental choice is whether to start w/ general guidelines, or start with an onto owner but do the docs after testing them 
13:38:56 <bwm> q-
13:38:56 <danbri_dna> mike(? from boeing): former makes more sense... why start without input from others?
13:39:11 <danbri_dna> ChrisWelty: re wordnet, the work on conversion wasn't done by the vocab owners
13:40:01 <danbri_dna> danbri_dna: when i did my 99 mapping, i got in touch but they had no resources to help, but were happy
13:40:13 <danbri_dna> guus: we can negotiate, maybe they could endorse it afterwards
13:40:41 <danbri_dna> ?: two things, converting thes to rdf vocab, vs converting wordnet to a real ontology
13:40:54 <RalphS> s/?/Aldo/
13:41:07 <danbri_dna> bernard: i agree we need 3/4/5 good use cases...
13:41:14 <danbri_dna> ...what is process to go to src owners
13:41:34 <danbri_dna> guus: i think v pragmatic material like: is there a big demand for this particular resource
13:41:40 <danbri_dna> ...wordnet figures high in many apps
13:41:52 <danbri_dna> ...is probably no.1 despite its errors
13:42:08 <danbri_dna> brian: seems good, i'd like to see this recorded
13:42:18 <danbri_dna> bernard:  [missed pt sorry]
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13:42:56 <danbri_dna> bwm: given your agreement on need for demand to help prioritise, can you show some evidence for this demand re thesaurus
13:43:07 <danbri_dna> guus: yes, we see questions re thesaurus
13:43:29 <danbri_dna> jjc: on the subject of wordnet, our colleague Ian has been looking at conversion
13:43:34 <danbri_dna> ...had some specfic question
13:43:41 <danbri_dna> ...to do with whether and how to publish his results
13:44:07 <danbri_dna> RalphS: is it plausible there's an owner of wordnet?
13:44:13 <danbri_dna> (several): princeton
13:44:38 <RalphS> "owner" as in a real person who can work with us
13:44:40 <ChrisWelty> The owners of WordNet are George Miller and Christiane Fellbaum
13:44:49 <danbri_dna> guus: although they are resource limited, maybe if we offer to help synetheisse the different proposals, would value that
13:44:59 <danbri_dna> guus: ericm, any thoughts re getty?
13:45:13 <danbri_dna> em: (via phone) getty have a series of thesauri and controlled vocabs
13:45:17 <danbri_dna> ...AAT, Getty, ...
13:45:31 <danbri_dna> ...etc. they have spent much time/effort building systems aroudn their own representations of this information
13:45:41 <danbri_dna> ...are looking at an xml serialization option to ship in the nr future
13:45:55 <danbri_dna> ...after looking at several options, rdf looks valuable to them
13:46:16 <danbri_dna> ...they're thinking about how best to represent these vocabs in rdf/xml
13:46:22 <danbri_dna> ...when to use rdf, when to use owl, ...
13:46:41 <danbri_dna> q+ to ask whether Gettty's vocabs would be usable freely in public semweb documents
13:46:51 <danbri_dna> em: issue of business case, usage scenarios, e
13:47:00 <danbri_dna> tc., haven't yet commited to any rdf/xml serialization
13:48:26 <danbri_dna> guus: i'd like to see the rationale for doing this documented
13:48:28 <RalphS> Guus: note should provide rationale for doing a conversion
13:48:34 <danbri_dna> em: yup
13:48:46 <danbri_dna> jjc: are you generalising from many people or just getty?
13:49:10 <danbri_dna> em: mostly getty but reflecting a general view. Dewey Decimal is another
13:49:16 <danbri_dna> ...similar questions there
13:49:38 <danbri_dna> ...eg are there ways of providing access control?
13:50:08 <DanC_jam> gee... "some rights reserved"... didn't we just hear that? ;-)
13:50:14 <danbri_dna> ...balancing between how to webify and make this rich information set available vs manage the existing business practices they're deeply committed to
13:50:20 <danbri_dna> [+1 danc]
13:50:35 <danbri_dna> q-
13:50:43 <danbri_dna> (ericm answered my planned question)
13:51:20 <danbri_dna> em: re prioritisation strategies -- if it is used by 2-3 communities it gets more attractive; if licensing issues/cost, less attractive
13:51:28 <danbri_dna> guus: a bootstrap problem here
13:51:34 <danbri_dna> ...iconclas as a resource describing images...
13:51:42 <danbri_dna> ...if getty crosses the line, they will also
13:51:48 <danbri_dna> ...that is the way these things work
13:52:33 <danbri_dna> guus: couple of things: a business method note, and also info encouraging vocab owners to convert
13:53:08 <danbri_dna> RalphS: I'm hearing interest, but no volunteers yet
13:53:19 <danbri_dna> guus: who would help w/ wordnet?
13:53:22 <RalphS> Guus: who's willing to sign up for Wordnet?
13:53:34 <danbri_dna> volunteers: danbri, alberto, guus (for a colleague)... 
13:53:44 <danbri_dna> ...also stefan or melnik would be good
13:54:23 <danbri_dna> jjc: possibly also Ian Dickinson interested in helping w/ wordnet
13:54:39 <danbri_dna> RalphS: can we make an informal query to princeton?
13:54:48 <danbri_dna> guus: we can address that after this meeting
13:55:14 <aldoG> I also volunteer (for a colleague)
13:55:15 <danbri_dna> danbri_dna: offers to contact decker/melnik if not premature
13:55:26 <danbri_dna> guus: can we address that tommorrow?
13:55:35 <danbri_dna> guus: re methodology note?
13:55:39 <danbri_dna> ...a show of hands...
13:55:48 <danbri_dna> libby: me or aleistair (from swad-e)
13:55:56 <danbri_dna> guus: [raises hand for a colleague]
13:56:16 <danbri_dna> guus: this is re a simple stepwise process for doing the conversion
13:56:25 <danbri_dna> [see http://esw.w3.org/mt/esw/archives/000045.html for recent swad-e writeup]
13:56:37 <danbri_dna> [Thesaurus FAQ Entry: How can I make my thesaurus a part of the Semantic Web?]
13:57:10 <RalphS> DanBri: 2 or 4 people joined the SWAD-Europe thesaurus list
13:57:11 <danbri_dna> guus: any outside people?
13:57:18 <danbri_dna> [see public-esw-thes]
13:57:46 <danbri_dna> guus: maybe we could send out a messaGE?
13:58:07 <danbri_dna> ACTION: danbri send msg to public-esw-thes letting them know BDP WG is considering work in thes2rdf area
13:58:18 <danbri_dna> guus: re ontologies... in charter
13:58:41 <danbri-scribe> ...
13:59:05 <danbri-scribe> guus: NCI ontology... coujld recreuit someone for the ontology methods discussion
13:59:28 <danbri-scribe> (discussion of fora that have stdised units of measure)
13:59:48 <em> [/me doesn't want to disrupt flow of conversation, but wanted to point about z39.19 work for defining thesaurus relationships for thesaurus construction - they are interested in RDF/XML representation and this may be another option to explore]
14:00:13 <dajobe> dajobe has changed the topic to: meeting http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-SWBPD charter http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/swbpd-charter
14:00:20 <danbri-scribe> DanC_jam: Frank Olsen in original rdfs wg had interests in this area fwiw
14:00:39 <danbri-scribe> guus: are ppl willing to sponsor this? units/measures etc?
14:01:21 <danbri-scribe> guus: From this list and others you know, which would be examples we could make use of  / work with?
14:01:29 <DanC_jam> not rdfs wg, but XML Schema WG. oh... he was interested in that in the RDFS WG too, wasn't he?
14:01:31 <danbri-scribe> [missed jjc point]
14:01:48 <danbri-scribe> RalphS: is there an issue re how best to represent those in the rdf/owl structure...
14:01:55 <danbri-scribe> ...maybe datatypes is one way, may be multiple ways...
14:02:10 <danbri-scribe> ...i think that is important, per danc's comments [re patterns etc]
14:02:33 <danbri-scribe> guus: re actual units of measures, yes there is an iso std
14:02:54 <danbri-scribe> ...but also [@@who] introduced a way of describing how different measures of quantity relate
14:02:58 <JosD> fyi http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/knowledge-sharing/papers/engmath.html
14:03:08 <danbri-scribe> bernard: something called ?sweet...
14:03:32 <danbri-scribe> (more discussion on measures]
14:03:52 <danbri-scribe> guus: see Gruber's paper on design principles for ontologies, uses this area as eg., shows some common problems
14:03:56 <danbri-scribe> ...has been well used
14:04:13 <danbri-scribe> [process discussion]
14:05:17 <timbl> q+
14:06:33 <danbri-scribe> (we are talking about poss work areas now)
14:07:04 <danbri-scribe> guus: are there particular vocabs/ontologies/etc that people want and that meet our criteria?
14:07:50 <danbri-scribe> timbl: (via phone) re wordnet... if there is prioritisation, i'm concerned, since it does give the impression of being a cyc-like ontology
14:08:17 <danbri-scribe> ...will lead people to misunderstand how this stuff works (even if this approach goes against orig design of WordNet)
14:08:39 <danbri-scribe> timbl: is fun but not weblike enough
14:08:52 <danbri-scribe> ...ppl use it 'cos way ppl use any unscalable tech that's easily adoptable
14:08:55 <chaalsNCE> [/me thinks here that Dan's comment about who does the work makes the rules is useful here]
14:09:16 <danbri-scribe> ...wordnet at a uri makes you think you've done an ontology and named a concept etc
14:09:31 <danbri-scribe> ...ppl will end up making diff systems which use the word House in diff ways
14:09:33 <libby> q+
14:09:40 <danbri-scribe> ...tempting to go down that route
14:09:55 <danbri-scribe> [shame that eurowordnet isn't available, as it helps fix the semaantics across nat langs]
14:10:14 <danbri-scribe> guus: the danger you're quoting is the thing wordnet was designed to avoid
14:10:30 <danbri-scribe> ...the house example, you'd expect wordnet users to do it oppositely
14:10:57 <danbri-scribe> bwm: re timbl comment. picking things that aid interop across the web should be high-scoring. i think that's useful, please note.
14:11:00 <danbri-scribe> [+1 from danbri]
14:11:21 <timbl> I ahve seen for example MortenF's use of Wordnet as a concept to link to a GPS waypoint, for example. 
14:11:25 <danbri-scribe> libby: timbl suggested that we focus on particular areas... people, places, time, ...
14:11:35 <danbri-scribe> ...same point, certain core group of things that would help interop
14:11:45 <danbri-scribe> jjc: i wanted to know a bit more about alan's time model
14:11:55 <danbri-scribe> ...is there a published ontology for that?
14:12:04 <timbl> Also some key metadta vocab ularies like the GRDDL property.
14:12:07 <danbri-scribe> q+ to speak up for TAP and for MusicBrainz
14:12:16 <danbri-scribe> guus: since his model, nobdoy proposed much else
14:12:23 <danbri-scribe> @@uri pls
14:12:39 <danbri-scribe> DanC_jam: please post a uri
14:12:55 <danbri-scribe> mike: it was daml-supported
14:13:03 <RalphS> Chris: DAML time ontology exists
14:13:11 <ChrisWelty> pointer to DAML-Time: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/~ferguson/daml/
14:13:12 <RalphS> ... is based on Alan's work
14:13:25 <danbri-scribe> guus: if we think something is hard to find or might drop off web, we might offer to host as a wg document
14:13:35 <danbri-scribe> guus: let's put time on todo list
14:13:44 <danbri-scribe> DanC_jam: the who/what/where/when/why of journalism
14:14:12 <timbl> I would encourage teh group to offer a namespace with persistent supprt in w3.org to groups starting work, so that they don't have to change later.
14:14:16 <danbri-scribe> ...in the semweb, for who, like or not, often foaf; where is a geo vocab we sorta started; there's a daml spatial mailing list; also stuff in cyc, sumo;
14:14:39 <danbri-scribe> ...for when, there is two extremes; clean stuff by James Allen, then there's the data that everybody uses, ical stuff
14:14:45 <danbri-scribe> ...little communication between theese two
14:15:04 <danbri-scribe> [note that  pat hayes came to the swad-e workshop on calendar :]
14:15:30 <RalphS> DanC: I'm willing to work on iCalendar and ...
14:15:34 <danbri-scribe> DanC_jam: i want to work on cal stuff
14:15:42 <danbri-scribe> danbri-scribe: is pat hayes
14:15:43 <danbri-scribe> q?
14:15:47 <danbri-scribe> ack 
14:15:48 <DanC_jam> ... work on iCalendar and maybe contrasting with James Alan's stuff.
14:15:49 <Zakim> DanC_jam, you wanted to note SeedApplications, the 6 w's: who? foaf when? iCalendar. where? ... etc.
14:15:52 <Zakim> danbri-scribe, you wanted to speak up for TAP and for MusicBrainz
14:16:26 <RalphS> DanBri: TAP ontology by Guha and Rob McCool @Stanford
14:16:37 <RalphS> ... small ontology
14:16:47 <RalphS> ... MusicBrainz database
14:16:49 <ChrisWelty> pointer to TAP: http://tap.stanford.edu/
14:16:58 <bwm> q+ to request group considers schema for xsd datatypes
14:17:11 <DanC_jam> one page about tap; probably not the home: http://www.w3.org/2002/05/tap/
14:17:12 <timbl> wishlist: Calendaring, Geospatial, Units and measures, Physical constants, Properties of the elelemts (eg GPL periodic table),  FOAF stuff with a hash,  A cleaned-up DC with a hash and well-defined domain and range of things like creator (not  mixture of names and email addersses etc).
14:17:29 <RalphS> ... MusicBrainz has a nice database, ontology could use some cleaning
14:17:48 <RalphS> DanBri: I spend time on MusicBrainz already
14:17:58 <danbri-scribe> danbri-scribe: advocates for stanford/guha/mcCool TAP
14:17:58 <RalphS> Jeremy: I'm interested in Alan's time model
14:18:01 <danbri-scribe> ...and for musicbrainz
14:18:05 <DanC_jam> musicbrainz http://www.musicbrainz.org/
14:18:10 <danbri-scribe> bernard: am wondering about the open directory project
14:18:14 <danbri-scribe> ...a good idea, and a bad idea...
14:18:18 <danbri-scribe> ...is widely used
14:18:25 <danbri-scribe> ...but on the other hand it is really a mess
14:18:29 <danbri-scribe> ...huge and illformed 
14:18:40 <danbri-scribe> ...400,000 categories
14:19:04 <danbri-scribe> aldoG: it is not an ontology, it is a directory
14:19:16 <danbri-scribe> [it is unfaceted; could be cleaned up at some expense]
14:19:17 <Zakim> bwm, you wanted to request group considers schema for xsd datatypes
14:19:21 <timbl> wishlist +=  conversions from existing standards, such as JPG-EXIF,   OFX,   
14:19:38 <danbri-scribe> brian: as an rdfcore chair... defining either an rdf schema or owl ontology for the xml schema datatypes
14:19:47 <danbri-scribe> [missed detail, re relations between them]
14:20:05 <danbri-scribe> ...i spoke with henry thompson, who suggested the xml schema wg may be receptive right now
14:20:08 <DanC_jam> hmm... GRDDL + schema-for-schemas = OWL ontology for datatypes?
14:20:09 <timbl> It is better IMHO to start making a few well-defined concepts like lattitude and longitude than to tr to take some dewey decimal systm of all things and refine it until everything is crisp and clean.
14:20:18 <danbri-scribe> jjc: I would spend time on that
14:20:30 <danbri-scribe> oh, re spending time
14:20:36 <danbri-scribe> danbri-scribe: i would spend time on musicbrainz
14:21:06 <danbri-scribe> phil: re ISO... we know there's  real world need for measures... just registering intent to look at the area would send out intent
14:21:18 <libby> libby has joined #swbp
14:21:24 <danbri-scribe> guus: is that a positive yes?
14:21:41 <danbri-scribe> phil t: yes, re measures
14:21:59 <danbri-scribe> [phil speaking as a wg observer not wg member, i think]
14:22:05 <danbri-scribe> guus: sohuld be on list of things to consider
14:22:19 <danbri-scribe> DanC_jam: do we have agenda space for published subject stuff?
14:22:26 <danbri-scribe> g:yes
14:22:49 <danbri-scribe> ChrisWelty: not sure where it fits, but I'd be willing to coordinate a task force on these Ontology patterns
14:23:04 <danbri-scribe> guus: next bit of agenda
14:23:14 <aldoG> back to DMOZ, the point is that DMOZ is a topic hierarchy, and the notion of topic is different from that of class ... I don't want to overprecise things, but imo one best practice is clarifying what a terminological resource is made of in terms of data types ...
14:23:18 <danbri-scribe> jjc: this isn't the last opportunity!
14:23:51 <danbri-scribe> guus: we have a first initial list, will revisit later
14:23:59 <DanC_jam> aldoG, I don't think I understand. consider sending mail to the WG mailing lists, please.
14:24:05 <Liddy> Liddy has joined #swbp
14:24:30 <danbri-scribe> [ http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/swbpd-charter#sec12 1.2.2 Focus: FAQs and how-to-do-it guidelines]
14:24:42 <ChrisWelty> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/2004/02/xhtml-rdf.html
14:24:47 <ChrisWelty> RDF in XHTML
14:24:48 <danbri-scribe> guus: there are 2 technical proposals...
14:24:53 <danbri-scribe> ...poss for convergence
14:24:57 <danbri-scribe> ...existing task force
14:25:09 <danbri-scribe> ...will become part of this wg's activity. discussing tommorrow.
14:25:35 <DanC_jam> GRDDL http://www.w3.org/2003/g/data-view
14:25:52 <danbri-scribe> jjc: note that we already covered rdfs/owl for xml schema datatypes
14:26:00 <danbri-scribe> guus: look at work for additional guidelines
14:26:16 <danbri-scribe> ...many recent questions, on rdfig, owl etc... 'how do i do, ..., ... etc'
14:27:02 <danbri-scribe> guus: considering design patterns for things like defaults...
14:27:15 <danbri-scribe> ...what are the principles underlying an ontology if you are going to build one
14:27:22 <danbri-scribe> ...there are pragmatic papers etc on this
14:27:31 <danbri-scribe> ...eg @@url 4 steps for normalising a representation
14:27:43 <danbri-scribe> ...nicola g, also work from aldo, ...
14:28:05 <danbri-scribe> (around the table brief summary)
14:28:23 <danbri-scribe> ChrisWelty: i could coord a tf on onto patterns, eg how to do certain kinds of things in owl
14:28:36 <danbri-scribe> guus: could anyone else contrib to that?
14:28:38 <RalphS> Chris: patterns, solutions, pitfalls
14:28:55 <danbri-scribe> mike: could we get Alan Rector in?
14:29:17 <danbri-scribe> (discussion of whether Manchester are in w3c, network inference etc)
14:29:23 <gk> RalphS, the ref above to "Alan's work", do you mean "Allen's work", as in James Allen (http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/james/)
14:29:40 <ChrisWelty> yes, that's him
14:29:42 <danbri-scribe> guus: Alan told me he would be interested to join
14:29:47 <danbri-scribe> ...he wrote a pattern for defaults
14:30:41 <danbri-scribe> [+1 on value of having input from Alan rector in some way]
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14:32:19 <danbri-scribe> bernard: do we want to prvide a way for normalising info? 
14:32:34 <danbri-scribe> ...we are not to say 'this ontology is crap, this is good beacause of xyz]
14:32:58 <aldoG> I am saying that generic ontologies (time, persons, plans, space, etc.) are something that should be used as ontology design patterns, if appropriately formatted, then a sharp distinction is a bit artificial ...
14:33:06 <danbri-scribe> guus: prio would be howto info then? practical answers...
14:33:21 <danbri-scribe> bernard: a more bottom up approach,... eg which are classes, which are individuals
14:33:32 <danbri-scribe> guus: also things like naming conventions in scope?
14:33:40 <danbri-scribe> ChrisWelty: not sure what you mean
14:33:50 <danbri-scribe> guus: whether you use a plural or a single form
14:34:02 <danbri-scribe> ChrisWelty: seems orthogonal
14:34:26 <danbri-scribe> ...a std of reference for how u name yr classes wasn't what i was thinking, is separate work
14:34:51 <danbri-scribe> guus: ppl ask 2 kinds of q, content oriented stuff, how do you do this; also practical Qs: re URIs etc detail
14:34:58 <danbri-scribe> jjc: use of label/comment
14:35:09 <danbri-scribe> dirkx: use of label/comment v good topic, esp re i18n
14:35:22 <danbri-scribe> guus: yes seems diff to area chris outlining
14:35:40 <danbri-scribe> bernard: use of the <Ontology> header
14:35:50 <danbri-scribe> JosD: could we call it a style guide
14:36:03 <RalphS> style conventions
14:36:07 <danbri-scribe> thx
14:36:25 <danbri-scribe> dirkx, ralph express interest
14:36:40 <RalphS> dirk expresses interest on behalf of his colleague ;)
14:36:44 <dirkx> s/dirkx/David Norheim (who officially will do this work on behalf of ASemantics.com).
14:37:28 <RalphS> DanBri: the Dublin Core Internationalization Group would be good to talk to
14:37:39 <danbri-scribe> danbri-scribe: SWIG folks could input, likjely each person small input rather than weeks of work
14:37:58 <danbri-scribe> q+ to request a new scribe assign before we leave room
14:38:15 <Zakim> danbri-scribe, you wanted to request a new scribe assign before we leave room
14:38:38 <RalphS> [30 min break]
14:38:57 <Zakim> -EMiller
14:40:08 <Zakim> -TPIlesA
14:40:25 <Zakim> -TimBL
15:11:58 <dirkx> dirkx has joined #swbp
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15:16:43 <fabien_gandon> fabien_gandon has joined #swbp
15:17:43 <libby> libby has joined #swbp
15:18:09 <Zakim> +TPIlesA
15:18:09 <gk-scr> Discussion of possible SWBP work items....
15:18:59 <areggiori> areggiori has joined #swbp
15:19:11 <gk-scr> Guus' slides ...#sect12
15:19:39 <gk-scr> (URI for Guus' slides?)
15:20:00 <areggiori> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/swbpd-charter#focus2
15:20:07 <gk-scr> Guus:  Protege has an owl plug-in
15:20:11 <RalphS> Guus is scroling through the WG charter
15:21:01 <JosD> Re ontology 101 http://www.ksl.stanford.edu/people/dlm/papers/ontology101/ontology101-noy-mcguinness.html
15:21:03 <gk-scr> Educational materials/issues... brainstorming...
15:21:29 <gk-scr> Availability of material in mutl languages (japanese, spanish, etc)
15:21:37 <RalphS> Karl Dubost: don't restrict to just English
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15:22:00 <bwm> bwm has joined #swbp
15:22:09 <gk-scr> Michael U:  imprtant, but how much should this group do?
15:22:21 <ChrisWelty> pointer to ontology 101: http://protege.stanford.edu/publications/ontology_development/ontology101.html
15:22:22 <gk-scr> Guus:  mainly, our role to provide pointers, rather than do it all
15:22:34 <gk-scr> Not sure if many good edu sites yet
15:22:57 <Zakim> +EMiller
15:23:01 <gk-scr> Book being published
15:23:29 <gk-scr> Michael U:  Survey would be good;  pointers + commentary.  Also, identify thye gaps
15:24:00 <gk-scr> Guus:   woukld be useful, not sure task force needed for this
15:24:23 <gk-scr> ... for exploration, just one or two people 
15:24:52 <gk-scr> ... is anyone here interested?
15:25:10 <dajobe> Guus refers to "A Semantic Web Primer", Grigoris Antoniou and Frank van Harmelen, MIT Press
15:25:17 <gk-scr> Ralph:  other risk here?  i.e. risk of endorsement of 3rd party material
15:25:39 <gk-scr> jjc:  avoid endorsement problem by "free-for-all" wiki
15:26:19 <fabien_gandon> q+
15:26:31 <gk-scr> With ESW, occasionally vandal strikes, but generally self-improving
15:26:45 <gk-scr> (ESW= European SWAD)
15:27:06 <gk-scr> Guus:  Wiki, open, but with opr without watcher?
15:27:30 <danbri_dna> [ESW also expands to Extended SW if needed; i chose esw.w3.org over swadeurope.w3.org for that reason]
15:27:32 <gk-scr> (missed stuff) join force with "them" (who?)
15:27:52 <RalphS> Fabien: KnowledgeWeb folk are collecting pointers
15:28:40 <gk-scr> To what extent should multi-lingual material be incorporated?  reference it seems OK (?)
15:29:20 <gk-scr> Adiditonal materials for Japanese?
15:29:56 <gk-scr> (EUropean effort to create course materials for SWeb, multi-lingual in European.   Would Japanese groups like to join in?)
15:30:28 <gk-scr> Noburo:  we have a learning portal site... linking to that would be useful
15:31:16 <gk-scr> ... offers to be contact person for this
15:31:28 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/
15:31:42 <gk-scr> Ivan:  SVG home page has lots of information about technology is available
15:32:16 <gk-scr> ... This is  very valuable in practice
15:32:40 <gk-scr> Sort of like a big linking/portal page
15:33:01 <fabien_gandon> One of the objectives of KnowledgeWeb is to "&provide up to date learning materials, curricula and, ultimately, new degree programs." The repository has already started. http://www.learninglab.de/deutsch/projekte/knowledgeweb.html
15:33:05 <gk-scr> Ralph:  SVG also has RSS feed from this.  Lots of work for team contact.
15:33:19 <gk-scr> Duplicate other efforts?:  Where so, just link.
15:33:55 <gk-scr> Guus:  seems to be enough here to start with.
15:33:57 <gk-scr> ----
15:34:03 <gk-scr> Notes that could be produced:
15:34:26 <gk-scr> (see slides)
15:35:09 <RalphS> Guus: 'backbone' refers to work of Nicola, Aldo, ...
15:35:21 <gk-scr> http://www.w3.org/2003/12/swa/swbpd-charter#sec12  ... section 1.2.2
15:35:26 <RalphS> Aldo: Nicola used 'backbone' in one paper to talk about principles of an ontology
15:35:37 <gk-scr> Discuss "backbone of ontology" (missed details)
15:36:25 <gk-scr> ... counts as "best advanced practice"
15:36:32 <aldoG> more exactly, to identify the most stable part of a taxonomy (so-called 'rigid properties'). which sometimes is not the most central one btw
15:37:02 <gk-scr> Chris Welty indicates willingness to sponsor "ontology backbone" note
15:37:43 <gk-scr> DL/Frames/FOL... note needs broader view?
15:37:59 <gk-scr> jjc:  XML vs RDF worldview difference more interesting
15:39:03 <gk-scr> ??:  distinguish between language primitives, and patterns of construction
15:39:15 <gk-scr> all: "yes"
15:39:57 <ChrisWelty> !-2s^??^Aldo^
15:40:30 <gk-scr> Ralph:  whetever we work on/with, be approachable to people *here* (W3C) who use semantic web technologies.  Deep use of ontology community concepts could be off-putting.  Try to translate, not-reinvent.
15:41:42 <gk-scr> Other communities... UML, computer science, ... (range of different views of same concepts?)
15:42:24 <gk-scr> Guus:  Sponsors for "worldview" note?
15:43:00 <gk-scr> Michael U: might, jjc: might
15:43:29 <gk-scr> Worldviews to cover XML/HTML issues?
15:44:00 <ChrisWelty> MikeU and Oscar volunteered for frames/logic to OWL
15:44:13 <ChrisWelty> JJC volunteered for XML to RDF/OWL
15:44:17 <ChrisWelty> world view points
15:44:23 <gk-scr> Have two years to develop / work on issues
15:44:41 <gk-scr> -----
15:44:48 <gk-scr> Tools and DAML applications
15:45:00 <gk-scr> s/daml/demo/
15:45:28 <gk-scr> DaveB has maintained RDF resource guiode for 5 years
15:45:36 <gk-scr> Recommendations?
15:45:45 <gk-scr> DaveB:  get several people
15:46:13 <gk-scr> ... haven't done recommendations, thinking of it,  this group couldn't
15:46:31 <gk-scr> ... more subject-specific areas
15:47:02 <gk-scr> ... maybe for this WG, link the three other pages (DaveB RDF res gude, DAML, OWL)
15:47:26 <gk-scr> Guus:  could have links to existing pages, plus extra links
15:48:17 <gk-scr> DaveB:  unless the team commits resources, (something) could be expensive
15:48:36 <gk-scr> ... need editorial control (not open wiki)
15:50:02 <danbri_dna> [hmm, claims about tools that can be written in a wiki and not be rewritten by others... may have some value]
15:50:12 <gk-scr> Ref Oscar's workshop that discovers non-interop of RDF tools
15:51:02 <gk-scr> danbri:  wiki can be valuable for allowing critical comments
15:51:10 <gk-scr> daveb:  mailing list?
15:51:23 <danbri_dna> [for allowing peer review of possibly contentious claims]
15:51:24 <Zakim> RalphS, you wanted to ask Dave if he thinks it possible to distribute maintenance of his index
15:52:01 <gk-scr> DaveB:  use bloggging approach as a starting point
15:53:06 <gk-scr> general discuss... topic map of tools and applications...
15:53:35 <gk-scr> ... for later (after the TM guidelines have ben developed)
15:53:57 <RalphS> DaveB: consider multiple 'categories' in blog to support different needs; e.g. looking for tool for specific purpose
15:54:28 <gk-scr> Bernard:  try not to restrict examples to technology applied to itself
15:54:50 <gk-scr> DaveB:  project called "Doap"
15:55:13 <gk-scr> ... issues were (as always) version control
15:55:22 <RalphS> DaveB: separate work on describing sw systems; Description Of A Project
15:55:25 <gk-scr> Guus: summarise:
15:55:30 <gk-scr> ... at leats a page with links
15:55:39 <dajobe> DOAP's a project by Edd Dumbill, should be announced soon
15:55:44 <gk-scr> ... possible add characteristics (review?) to this
15:55:56 <gk-scr> ... problem of recommendation
15:56:13 <gk-scr> ... (but simply being on page is a minimal form of endorsement)
15:56:48 <gk-scr> jjc:  use W3C voting technology to give guide to popularity?    Consensus not.
15:57:25 <gk-scr> Sponsors?
15:57:42 <danbri_dna> more on DOAP, lit review article from Edd Dumbill, http://www-106.ibm.com/developerworks/xml/library/x-osproj.html 
15:58:32 <gk-scr> Ralph:  maybe best goal is to cresate a structure that the community can maintain.
15:58:47 <gk-scr> DaveB could work with that.
15:59:33 <gk-scr> [GK: wonders if HP's semantic blogging would be useful here?]
16:00:20 <bwm> [bwm wonders what effect square brackets have]
16:00:41 <timbl> [in another channel, I note that a useful ontology would be that of iso language codes , as properties relating something to its expression in that language.     as in:  pet genus [ islong:fr "chat" ]   .... ]
16:00:56 <timbl> [square brackets are admittedly offtopic comments]
16:01:02 <danbri_dna> [i have been using them as a way of saying, 'aside:', in a way that is recorded in the meeting record, without suggesting the words were put to the entire meeting at the time]
16:01:15 <timbl> [unless nesetd in whcih case they are N3 bnodes ;-)   ]
16:02:06 <gk-scr> [ [ a :privateComment ; rdf:comment "blah blah" ] ] ?
16:02:25 <gk-scr> Ralph:  make special effort to spend time on things that are open source
16:03:31 <gk-scr> Marco and Alain sponsor toools related work
16:03:46 <Zakim> + +1.650.654.aaaa
16:03:56 <RalphS> Bernard: Actors project has an ontology for tools
16:04:04 <RalphS> zakim, aaaa is Natasha
16:04:04 <Zakim> +Natasha; got it
16:04:09 <gk-scr> Natasha joins
16:05:22 <gk-scr> Guus:  demo apps separate from tools?
16:05:24 <RalphS> RalphS has changed the topic to: meeting http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-SWBPD log is http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-swbp-irc
16:06:04 <gk-scr> Ivan:  my list from output of SWAD project 
16:06:05 <dajobe> from http://www.aktors.org/akt/
16:06:24 <gk-scr> Will this be maintained after ESW?
16:06:39 <gk-scr> DanBri:  it needs pulling togethyer again, needs to live on
16:06:44 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/chosen_demos_rationale_report/hp-applications-survey.html
16:06:48 <Natasha> Natasha has joined #swbp
16:06:53 <gk-scr> Libby:  wiki is good place, but it does need work
16:07:15 <RalphS> Bernard also willing to sponsor tool-related indexing
16:07:27 <Guus> Guus has joined #swbp
16:07:30 <gk-scr> DanBri:  was talking about the FAQs ,  comment above at cross purposes.
16:07:53 <NatashaN> NatashaN has joined #swbp
16:08:55 <gk-scr> Ivan:  it's not only a list;  also attempt to categorize them.  Something like that continued would be a valuable resource.
16:09:01 <gk-scr> Ralph: backed by RDF data?
16:09:14 <gk-scr> Guus:  sponsors?
16:09:35 <gk-scr> jjc:  will talk to colleagues
16:10:20 <gk-scr> ... find mechanism used for generating the application liost in the HP report
16:10:39 <gk-scr> ----
16:10:42 <gk-scr> Demo applications
16:10:54 <gk-scr> Guus:  this is almost a "must" for this group
16:11:39 <gk-scr> Ivan:  demo applications mean real-life applications that demonstrate real-world utility
16:12:03 <RalphS> Ivan: many of the items in the EU report are real, not just demo
16:12:05 <gk-scr> Moving on...
16:12:39 <gk-scr> 1.2.4 Focus: Links to related techniques
16:13:51 <Natasha> Natasha has joined #swbp
16:14:13 <gk-scr> Project to create repository of (tools?), maintained by Sandro Hawke  (?)
16:14:27 <RalphS> s/(tools?)/ontologies/
16:14:38 <RalphS> s/maintained/developed/
16:14:39 <gk-scr> Now to 1.2.4...
16:15:03 <RalphS> Focus 4: Links to related techniques
16:15:21 <Zakim> -EMiller
16:15:41 <RalphS> Guus: hoping to involve individuals from CWI and DSTC on MPEG
16:15:54 <gk-scr> DanBri:  question about SMIL and timed test
16:16:12 <gk-scr> Ivan: no SMIL group now, but desired link is in place
16:16:26 <gk-scr> s/test/text/
16:17:14 <RalphS> DanBri: would like to get <indecs> folk involved
16:17:51 <RalphS> Guus: MPEG21 augments MPEG7
16:19:07 <ChrisWelty> ChrisWelty has joined #swbp
16:19:14 <gk-scr> Postpone further discussion until others have joined
16:19:34 <RalphS> Guus: expect Evan Wallace to participate for UML connection
16:19:42 <sandro> sandro has joined #swbp
16:19:53 <gk-scr> Guus: Re UML, (??) will join the working group
16:20:06 <timbl> re Project to create repository of (tools?), maintained by Sandro Hawke  (?)"
16:20:20 <timbl> Not tools, ontologies
16:20:28 <RalphS> I corrected the scribing
16:21:13 <RalphS> [Sandro is developing the tools to create an open directory of ontologies ]
16:21:22 <gk-scr> Topic maps:
16:21:35 <gk-scr> Bernard:  actions, 3 organizations:  ISO process (??)...
16:21:49 <gk-scr> ... one part of framework is framework of (?)
16:22:08 <RalphS> published subject identifiers
16:22:21 <gk-scr> ... process issue, who does what ...  
16:22:46 <gk-scr> ... proposals for TM/RDF interop frameworks ...
16:22:57 <gk-scr> ... what can be mapped, what is diffiult...
16:23:19 <gk-scr> ... bernard's prefered approach to use IOWL as constraint language for TM
16:23:30 <gk-scr> s/OIWL/OWL/
16:23:40 <gk-scr> s/IOWL/OWL/
16:24:05 <gk-scr> ... do we make proposal to TM community, do we want them to push proposal to us?
16:24:23 <gk-scr> jjc: geolang area, easier area to make quick gains?
16:24:26 <danbri_dna> q+ to note a swad-europe workshop planned for April18th, alongside XML-Europe in Amsterdam (as yet unannounced)
16:24:28 <RalphS> Bernard: cites recent work from Lars Marius Garshol to connect OWL to TopicMaps
16:24:35 <dajobe> tm geolang http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=geolang
16:24:52 <gk-scr> bernard:  TM work lacks task force, process is slow, stuck in difficult issues
16:25:35 <RalphS> [see, e.g. http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-interest/2003Mar/0058.html "Living with topic maps and RDF" Lars Marius Garshol 2003-03-21]
16:25:57 <gk-scr> Guus: (personal view) technically not diffiult to map TM to RDF.  TM is more like info searching paradigm;  correspond to a particular way of using RDF.
16:26:25 <gk-scr> ... first step to write note about this worldview notion, and what it means in SWeb terms.
16:26:34 <gk-scr> ... no so much technical issue
16:27:02 <gk-scr> ... show how to do same thing with diofferent underlying representation, we have a link
16:27:07 <danbri_dna> q?
16:27:12 <danbri_dna> ack danbri_dna
16:27:12 <Zakim> danbri_dna, you wanted to note a swad-europe workshop planned for April18th, alongside XML-Europe in Amsterdam (as yet unannounced)
16:28:33 <gk-scr> Bernard:  we have three days of meetings, is overlap, we will not attend.
16:28:45 <gk-scr> danbri: formal annoucnement awaits further checks
16:29:26 <gk-scr> Bernard:  TM people want clear indication that there is an interest in (cooperation) ... if there is one
16:29:44 <gk-scr> ... people say TM in SWEB, but not written anywhere
16:30:33 <gk-scr> Ralph:  mentioned in a couple of places;  is there in this group desire to work on the mapping?
16:30:39 <JosD> Re Topic Maps  Data Model - Committee draft 2003-11-02 http://www.isotopicmaps.org/sam/sam-model/
16:30:59 <gk-scr> ... e.g. GRDDL mapping style of approach
16:31:48 <gk-scr> Bernard:  if you can map, people ask "why two technologies, get rid of one".
16:32:05 <gk-scr> Jos:  does TM have model theory
16:32:14 <gk-scr> Bernard: no.  standard is data model.
16:33:14 <gk-scr> Guus:  write a note ... what does it mean ... (not following detail here)
16:33:50 <gk-scr> Bernard:  RDF has ben supported by good formal logic people;  no such in TM community
16:34:33 <gk-scr> Guus:  TMs have ben successful for certain user communities .. building common index streams to find documents, mostly intranet based.
16:34:57 <gk-scr> Sponsors?
16:35:33 <gk-scr> Bernard.  DanBri will help to find people.  Guus wants to, but...  (a day has only 30 hours)
16:35:55 <gk-scr> Ralph:  I want to see progress.  The conversation is long-running.  
16:36:23 <danbri_dna> aside: [[
16:36:24 <danbri_dna> Bring together existing and new developers working on interoperability between RDF-based and Topic Map-based datasets, applications, systems and services.
16:36:24 <danbri_dna> Explore ways of exposing RDF vocabularies (including OWL ontologies) within Topic Maps environment (and vice-versa)
16:36:28 <danbri_dna> Encourage practical, test-case led framework for cross-technology interoperability
16:36:28 <gk-scr> ... are there practices we can examine, or is new work needed?  Latter seems beyond a SWBP task force
16:36:32 <danbri_dna> Discuss implementation lessons learnt.
16:36:36 <danbri_dna> Share this information to the wider community.
16:36:38 <danbri_dna> ]]
16:36:40 <danbri_dna> ...is the workshop draft I have
16:37:10 <gk-scr> jjc:  Good if Mondeca nd ANO are using the same mapping.
16:37:20 <gk-scr> s/nd/and/
16:37:59 <gk-scr> Leave it this for now.
16:38:01 <gk-scr> ----
16:38:09 <gk-scr> Databases
16:38:28 <danbri_dna> [ontopia folks have done works on mapping too]
16:38:41 <gk-scr> RDF data model very like binary relational model.
16:39:09 <gk-scr> What relations are there between RDF and SQL query techniques, and other aspects.  (Excpet query out of scope, to DAWG)
16:39:35 <gk-scr> jjc:  Chris Bizer works in this area.
16:40:47 <gk-scr> Maybe Alain Lege interested
16:40:50 <danbri_dna> [libby, dajobe, what was that swad-e report that covered sql to rdf mapping stuff? or in several docs?]
16:40:52 <RalphS> Ivan: RDF comes up in discussions as a general data model to combine large databases
16:42:03 <danbri_dna> q+ to note that DA WG will be pretty close to this space due to the xquery relationship
16:42:20 <gk-scr> DaveB:  Swad europe, workshop and two reports.  What else to say/do?  mapping RDBs/ontologies.
16:42:28 <libby> here's one: http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/Europe/reports/scalable_rdbms_mapping_report/
16:42:45 <gk-scr> ChrisW:  different issues:  RDF for DB integration and what is relationship between RDB and triples
16:43:20 <danbri_dna> thanks libby
16:43:32 <gk-scr> jjc:  two kinds of DB integration:  (1) integrate with RDF (map the triples), (2) integration by OWL, be much smarter.
16:43:40 <danbri_dna> [[
16:43:41 <danbri_dna> A public report on mapping triple stores and RDBMS  concentrating on surveying the schemas used and discussing  mapping approaches to and from relational schemas.
16:43:44 <danbri_dna> ]] from url above
16:43:53 <Natasha> Natasha has joined #swbp
16:44:08 <gk-scr> [GK:  wonders about work like Lore]
16:44:10 <Zakim> danbri_dna, you wanted to note that DA WG will be pretty close to this space due to the xquery relationship
16:44:28 <danbri_dna> thanks zakim
16:45:38 <gk-scr> danbri: t get sweb kick-started, taking relational databases and presenting them as RDF sems to be of some value.  Part will be addressed by new DAWG.  Guys wrapping XML around relational data mostly using XQuery.  DAWG will look at maop to XQuery.
16:46:02 <gk-scr> ... suggest concentrate this group on other things, but keep talking to DAWG.
16:46:02 <Natasha> Natasha has joined #swbp
16:47:09 <libby> http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/suhl/bizer/d2rmap/D2Rmap.htm see refs e.g. http://www.w3.org/1999/07/13-persistant-RDF-DB.html (I'm sure eric's done more recent stuff too)
16:47:55 <gk-scr> ChrisW:  two issues; one to throw to the DAWG, the other is database integration and this has great value.  Using RDF to specify database schema semantics, seems to lie in SWBP purview.
16:48:09 <gk-scr> Ralph:  but what can we do in 4-6 months.
16:48:28 <gk-scr> ChrisW:  lots of work in description logics community.
16:49:07 <gk-scr> jjc:  Suggest postponing this:  OWL is new and exists prior art in DL community which will hopefully\emerge into SWeb in any case.
16:49:27 <gk-scr> ChrisW:  I don't want to lose it;  OK to postpone.
16:49:43 <gk-scr> -------
16:49:55 <gk-scr> Summarizing possible task forces:
16:50:20 <gk-scr> 1. Thesaurus porting
16:50:26 <gk-scr> 2. Ontology conversion support
16:50:44 <gk-scr> s/1./1a/
16:50:49 <gk-scr> s/2./1b/
16:51:06 <gk-scr> 2a design patterns
16:51:27 <gk-scr> 2b style considerations
16:51:34 <gk-scr> 2c RDF in XHTML
16:52:13 <gk-scr> *** I'm stopping this:  I'll take a photo of the whiteboard ***
16:53:34 <danbri_dna> I wonder whether 'input from knowledgeweb' could be broadened to all EU or all research projects...?
16:53:37 <danbri_dna> []
16:57:12 <danbri_dna> [propose: Technical and Social Considerations for an International Semantic Web...]
16:58:15 <danbri_dna> [re conversion, musicbrainz is _already_ in rdf... maybe could do a review of their draft schema?]
16:59:42 <libby> makes sense from what I've heard
17:00:25 <gk-scr> Discussing topic for integration of tools....
17:00:50 <gk-scr> (I've made a separate list of the topics, which I'll paste in when preference pickibng starts)
17:02:00 <Natasha> Natasha has joined #swbp
17:02:11 <gk-scr> Too late for straw poll for tonight, but the current list is this:
17:02:12 <gk-scr> 1. (a) Thesaurus porting methods
17:02:12 <gk-scr>    (b) Internationalization issues
17:02:12 <gk-scr>    (c) Ontology conversion support
17:02:12 <gk-scr>          WordNet
17:02:12 <gk-scr>          Getty Thesaurus
17:02:14 <gk-scr>          Units and Measures
17:02:16 <gk-scr>          Time ontology
17:02:18 <gk-scr>          XML Schema datatypes
17:02:20 <gk-scr>          MusicBrainz
17:02:22 <gk-scr> 2. (a) Design patterns; part-whole, default
17:02:24 <gk-scr>    (b) Style considerations; naming, namespace usage, ...
17:02:26 <gk-scr>    (c) RDF in XHTML
17:02:28 <gk-scr>    (d) Ontology design backbone
17:02:30 <gk-scr> 3. (a) Tools;  links to existing work
17:02:32 <gk-scr>    (b) Demos and applications
17:02:34 <gk-scr>    (c) Integration of reasoning tools, and application-specific computation
17:02:36 <gk-scr> 4. (a) Link to MPEG
17:02:38 <gk-scr>    (b) Link to UML
17:02:40 <gk-scr>    (c) Link to Topic Maps
17:02:42 <gk-scr> -----
17:03:12 <gk-scr> Winding up.
17:04:26 <danbri_dna> [suggest: show how RDF+OWL meets the WebOnt Requirements document, with examples; collecting issues if it fails to meet]
17:04:39 <gk-scr> Ummm... above list is incomplete.
17:04:54 <ChrisWelty> http://esw.w3.org/topic/BestPracticeTaskForces
17:06:28 <Zakim> -Natasha
17:07:15 <areggiori> areggiori has left #swbp
17:08:13 <Zakim> -TPIlesA
17:08:54 <Zakim> SW_BPD(tp2004)3:00AM has ended
17:08:55 <Zakim> Attendees were Tp_iles_a, Deb_Mcguinness, TimBL, TPIlesA, EMiller, +1.650.654.aaaa, Natasha
17:23:08 <RalphS> zakim, bye
17:23:09 <Zakim> Zakim has left #swbp
17:23:12 <RalphS> rrsagent, bye
17:23:12 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item:
17:23:12 <RRSAgent> ACTION: danbri send msg to public-esw-thes letting them know BDP WG is considering work in thes2rdf area [1]
17:23:12 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/03/04-swbp-irc#T13-58-07