IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-02-12

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:59:34 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:59:40 [Yvette]
Hi Roberto C
20:59:42 [rscano]
hi
20:59:52 [silvia]
hi
20:59:57 [rcastaldo]
Hi Yvette, Hi Robertos
21:00:01 [rcastaldo]
Hi Silvia
21:00:07 [rscano]
who open the calls?
21:00:45 [Yvette]
I don't know
21:01:10 [rscano]
i'm patching dialpad...
21:01:12 [wendy]
zakim, this is will be WCAG
21:01:12 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I do not see a conference named 'will be WCAG' in progress or scheduled at this time
21:01:19 [wendy]
zakim, will be WCAG
21:01:19 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'will be WCAG', wendy
21:01:24 [wendy]
zakim, will be WAI_WCAG
21:01:24 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'will be WAI_WCAG', wendy
21:01:27 [rscano]
zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG()
21:01:27 [Zakim]
ok, rscano, I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM already started
21:01:33 [wendy]
:) thx
21:01:34 [rscano]
zakim,who is on the phone?
21:01:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, ??P2, ??P5, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer
21:01:36 [rscano]
:)
21:01:42 [rscano]
opps... go :)
21:01:47 [Zakim]
+Sailesh_Panchang
21:02:13 [Zakim]
+??P9
21:02:14 [Zakim]
+Wendy
21:02:24 [Zakim]
+Avi_Arditti
21:02:28 [Zakim]
+Yvette_Hoitink
21:02:46 [wendy]
zakim, ??P2 may be Roberto_Scano
21:02:46 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano?; got it
21:02:49 [doyle]
doyle has joined #wai-wcag
21:02:50 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
21:02:57 [rscano]
nope i'm not connected
21:03:20 [doyle]
Wendy may have been me after David
21:03:28 [Zakim]
+??P13
21:03:30 [wendy]
zakim, ??P5 may be Gregg
21:03:30 [Zakim]
+Gregg?; got it
21:03:33 [rscano]
zakim, ??P13 is Roberto_Scano
21:03:36 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano; got it
21:03:40 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
21:03:47 [rscano]
zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
21:03:47 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not see a party named 'Roberto_Scano'
21:03:57 [rscano]
zakim, who is here?
21:03:57 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Roberto_Scano?, Gregg?, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer, Sailesh_Panchang, ??P9, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Yvette_Hoitink,
21:04:00 [Zakim]
... Roberto_Scano, JasonWhite
21:04:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see bcaldwell, doyle, RRSAgent, rcastaldo, wendy, silvia, rellero, Zakim, Yvette, rscano
21:04:03 [Yvette]
zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
21:04:03 [Zakim]
ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink
21:04:05 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:04:05 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Roberto_Scano?, Gregg?, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer, Sailesh_Panchang, ??P9, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Yvette_Hoitink,
21:04:09 [Zakim]
... Roberto_Scano, JasonWhite
21:04:11 [wendy]
zakim, ??P9 may be Gian
21:04:15 [rscano]
doubleScano? :)
21:04:19 [Zakim]
+Gian?; got it
21:04:24 [wendy]
zakim, Ray is Doyle
21:04:26 [rcastaldo]
Incredible!!!
21:04:27 [Zakim]
+Doyle; got it
21:04:30 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
21:04:31 [rcastaldo]
2 Roberto Scanos
21:04:33 [rellero]
hi rob
21:04:40 [rscano]
i hang up
21:04:42 [rscano]
and recall
21:04:45 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
21:04:56 [rscano]
zakim, Roberto_Scano? is Roberto_Castaldo
21:04:56 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Castaldo; got it
21:05:10 [wendy]
zakim, Roberto_Scano? is Roberto_Castaldo
21:05:10 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'Roberto_Scano?'
21:05:15 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
21:05:48 [wendy]
agenda?
21:05:56 [wendy]
zakim, take up item 1
21:05:58 [Zakim]
+??P16
21:05:59 [Zakim]
agendum 1. ""guideline 3.4: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0129.html"" taken up [from rscano]
21:06:04 [rscano]
zakim, ??P16 is Roberto_Scano
21:06:04 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano; got it
21:06:06 [wendy]
??P16 is Roberto?
21:06:11 [rscano]
zakim, i'm Roberto_Scano
21:06:11 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'i'm Roberto_Scano', rscano
21:06:23 [rscano]
zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
21:06:23 [Zakim]
ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
21:07:03 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:07:10 [rellero]
zakim, ??P15 may be Roberto_ellero
21:07:10 [Zakim]
+Roberto_ellero?; got it
21:07:18 [wendy]
did someone just join?
21:07:35 [rscano]
rellero
21:07:54 [rellero]
I am P15
21:08:33 [rscano]
zakim, Roberto_Ellero? is Roberto_Ellero
21:08:33 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Ellero; got it
21:09:02 [wendy]
ack john
21:09:19 [wendy]
one suggestion for testability - "repeated navigation elements" are grouped together
21:09:47 [wendy]
i.e., those that appear on multiple pages
21:12:35 [wendy]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=443
21:13:13 [wendy]
action: john write up concrete suggestion for wording for success criterion for matching link text with titles of destination pages for grouping navigation elements
21:14:11 [wendy]
general process comments: we are 6 months from last publication to /TR.
21:14:19 [wendy]
we need to get something published before CSUN.
21:14:57 [wendy]
we have several open issues. people come to the meeting and ask the "homework" for the call to be read to them.
21:15:05 [wendy]
feeling that it is the first time people are reading the recommendations.
21:15:28 [wendy]
spend telecon time framing what we're going to work on, instead of closing items.
21:15:53 [wendy]
we have 2 weeks to close about a dozen issues. we've been proceeding at pace of about 2/week. we need to move more quickly to get draft out before csun.
21:16:34 [wendy]
why 2 weeks? tech plenary, publishing moratorium, csun, etc.
21:16:41 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Ellero
21:16:59 [wendy]
need blessing by WCAG WG first week of march so that can be on docket for publication week of 8 march.
21:17:42 [wendy]
instead of reading all of the items is to have an action item for someone who will take issues and propose solution.
21:17:46 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:17:48 [Zakim]
-??P15
21:18:48 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:18:51 [rellero]
zakim, ??P15 is Roberto_ellero
21:18:51 [Zakim]
+Roberto_ellero; got it
21:19:04 [wendy]
q+ to say "think we can close some issues today or at least verify they are open"
21:19:22 [wendy]
ack
21:19:24 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:19:24 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "think we can close some issues today or at least verify they are open"
21:21:39 [wendy]
ack John
21:22:04 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise
21:22:04 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's making noise', wendy
21:22:06 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:22:12 [wendy]
does someone else hear an echo?
21:22:16 [rellero]
zakim, mute me
21:22:16 [Zakim]
sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
21:22:18 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg? (9%)
21:22:19 [Yvette]
yes, I did just now
21:22:23 [Yvette]
Now it's fine again
21:22:31 [wendy]
john seems echo-y
21:22:33 [Yvette]
Yep
21:24:13 [rscano]
good
21:24:16 [wendy]
383: replace key with important. ed note that subjective.
21:24:21 [bcaldwell]
Gregg and I got muted
21:24:30 [bcaldwell]
zakim, who is muted?
21:24:30 [Zakim]
I see Roberto_Scano muted
21:24:49 [wendy]
action: check with kynn about understandability (bug 422)
21:25:26 [wendy]
replace "not consistent" with "not necessarily consistent"
21:25:39 [wendy]
oops, "not identical"
21:26:22 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:26:22 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:26:46 [wendy]
action: john send proposal to clarify "not identical"
21:26:56 [wendy]
(bug 422)
21:27:13 [wendy]
"consistent across web site or application"
21:27:25 [Yvette]
q+
21:27:31 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
21:27:31 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
21:27:51 [Yvette]
q-
21:28:11 [wendy]
bug 471:
21:28:20 [wendy]
handled by john's proposed rewording?
21:28:25 [rscano]
http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=471
21:28:25 [Zakim]
-Roberto_ellero
21:28:29 [wendy]
443: not easily closed
21:29:10 [wendy]
action: gian propose wording for issue 443
21:29:40 [wendy]
if take non-testability out of it, becomes very rigid.
21:29:51 [wendy]
as work on it, think about those issues.
21:30:05 [rellero]
With regard to the communicative appearances, it is well known that the
21:30:06 [rellero]
uniformity excess kills the communication. This is a negative aspect which
21:30:06 [rellero]
distresses for example many CMS (very consistent but not communicative and rigid), we should in my opinion find a form which makes explicit the importance of a clear articulate layout , so not identical may be even an usability issue
21:30:06 [rellero]
.
21:30:18 [wendy]
ack Dave
21:30:24 [wendy]
move to gateway?
21:30:37 [wendy]
if not testable, move to gateway?
21:30:39 [rellero]
I'm sorry, I have problems with the phone
21:30:48 [wendy]
design principles that can't put through a/b test
21:31:00 [Yvette]
what's a/b test?
21:31:05 [wendy]
need an anchor in the guidelines
21:31:29 [wendy]
it's a comparison between two things (a and b). i think you can say, "a is set of rules, does b meet them?"
21:31:36 [wendy]
compare b to the set of rules a
21:31:40 [Yvette]
ok, thx
21:32:31 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:32:43 [rellero]
zakim, ??P15 is Roberto_ellero
21:32:43 [Zakim]
+Roberto_ellero; got it
21:33:09 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Lots of database generated pages have same layout"
21:33:25 [wendy]
q?
21:33:55 [wendy]
sorry - w/my wonky network, i didn't see them.
21:33:59 [wendy]
(have a delay)
21:34:01 [wendy]
ack loretta
21:34:01 [Yvette]
:-)
21:34:10 [wendy]
difference between design of page and page being the same.
21:34:21 [wendy]
e.g., book - design of page similar even if content is different.
21:34:54 [wendy]
layout could be identical, but title and content distinguish
21:34:58 [rscano]
yes... this is the example that i've done with pdf in the doc :)
21:35:01 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:35:01 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Lots of database generated pages have same layout"
21:40:12 [wendy]
language in 315: seems testable. include in some way. http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=315
21:40:53 [wendy]
time limit on action items: finish by next Tuesday
21:41:00 [wendy]
===
21:41:04 [wendy]
close this item
21:41:11 [wendy]
take up item 2
21:41:16 [Yvette]
Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/att-0142/2004-jan-28-princ4-proposal.html
21:46:35 [Yvette]
q+ to ask "Why have you moved the use of accessibility conventions to 4.1?"
21:49:14 [wendy]
if say "any user interface elements" would then apply to forms and similar interface elements. thus "programmatic" remains.
21:49:28 [wendy]
trying to trap for those user interface elements created by the author.
21:49:59 [wendy]
q?
21:52:04 [Zakim]
-Roberto_ellero
21:55:31 [bcaldwell]
ack John
21:55:34 [wendy]
ack john
21:55:36 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:55:36 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to ask "Why have you moved the use of accessibility conventions to 4.1?"
21:55:57 [wendy]
(level 2)
21:57:19 [wendy]
move from 4.1 to 4.2
21:57:31 [wendy]
"where appropriate"
22:00:33 [wendy]
ack dave
22:01:39 [wendy]
q+ to say "put an editorial note on this. someone take an action to look at all uses of 'appropriately' in the doc?"
22:04:04 [wendy]
"there are some exceptions to this rule depending on support"
22:04:11 [wendy]
ack Loretta
22:04:33 [wendy]
redundant to say use accessibility conventions?
22:05:16 [wendy]
thus get rid of it
22:06:20 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
22:06:31 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Castaldo (77%), Doyle (9%), Gian? (39%), Yvette_Hoitink (9%)
22:06:37 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:06:37 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:06:38 [rscano]
zakim, mute Roberto_Castaldo
22:06:38 [Zakim]
Roberto_Castaldo should now be muted
22:06:45 [rscano]
opps
22:07:46 [wendy]
ack andi
22:08:04 [wendy]
agree with loretta - if meet all of the requirements, what difference does it make? you've probably already used it.
22:08:07 [wendy]
ack wendy
22:08:07 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "put an editorial note on this. someone take an action to look at all uses of 'appropriately' in the doc?"
22:08:09 [doyle]
we may want to write out what API stands for - I assume Application Program Interface
22:08:10 [wendy]
ack [IBM]
22:08:27 [wendy]
move to techniques and tie to level 1 criterion
22:10:45 [wendy]
move level 2 4.1 criteria "accessibility conventions of the markup or programming language (API's or specific markup) are used where appropriate [X] " to techniques
22:10:51 [wendy]
[resolved]
22:11:33 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:11:33 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:11:58 [wendy]
fyi: defn of programmatic:
22:11:58 [wendy]
Of, relating to, or having a program.
22:11:58 [wendy]
Following an overall plan or schedule: a step-by-step, programmatic approach to problem solving.
22:11:58 [wendy]
Music. Of, resembling, or constituting program music.
22:12:04 [wendy]
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=programmatic
22:12:45 [Yvette]
q+ to say "4.1 level 1 # 1 : Presupposes 1 plugin for content. Is it enough if 1 accessible plugin exists?"
22:14:23 [wendy]
custom seems like better wordl
22:14:27 [wendy]
s/wordl/word
22:15:42 [wendy]
level 3: very restrictive. needed?
22:18:02 [rcastaldo]
ok
22:18:09 [rscano]
ok
22:19:32 [wendy]
amendments: delete level 2 criterion in 4.1
22:20:31 [wendy]
delete 3rd item in level 3: create a bug
22:21:34 [wendy]
"public spec available"
22:21:49 [wendy]
pdf not developed by open process, but has an public spec
22:22:49 [wendy]
may have thrown out basic goal of "people can get at this" but not sure of crisp way to say.
22:23:20 [rcastaldo]
Good job :-)
22:23:46 [Yvette]
ack Yvette
22:23:46 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "4.1 level 1 # 1 : Presupposes 1 plugin for content. Is it enough if 1 accessible plugin exists?"
22:23:49 [wendy]
action: loretta write bug re: "be deleting 4.2 level 3 #3 may throw out goal of 'people can get at this'"
22:25:44 [rscano]
plugin definition in UAAG 1.0: A plug-in is a program that runs as part of the user agent and that is not part of content. Users generally choose to include or exclude plug-ins from their user agent.
22:26:11 [wendy]
4.2 level 1 #1: at least one plug-in to require these things meets... "~link is provided from the content"
22:26:53 [Zakim]
-Gian?
22:31:06 [Yvette]
Wendy can I ask you something after the meeting?
22:31:20 [Zakim]
-Sailesh_Panchang
22:31:27 [rcastaldo]
Bye
22:31:30 [Zakim]
-John_Slatin
22:31:31 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
22:31:31 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
22:31:32 [Zakim]
-Dave_MacDonald
22:31:32 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:31:33 [Zakim]
-Doyle
22:31:33 [silvia]
Bye all!
22:31:34 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
22:31:35 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
22:31:37 [Zakim]
-Gregg?
22:31:39 [Zakim]
-Avi_Arditti
22:31:39 [silvia]
silvia has left #wai-wcag
22:31:41 [Yvette]
Wendy, I heard of the tight time schedule
22:31:44 [Zakim]
-JasonWhite
22:31:54 [rcastaldo]
Ciao a tutti
22:31:54 [Yvette]
I don't have much time the next two weeks to work on my new summary
22:32:02 [Yvette]
Ciao a uno :-)
22:32:20 [rcastaldo]
:-D
22:32:20 [Yvette]
Is it too late if I finish it by the end of February?
22:32:40 [Zakim]
-Wendy
22:32:41 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:32:42 [Zakim]
Attendees were Dave_MacDonald, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Yvette_Hoitink, Gregg?, Roberto_Scano, JasonWhite,
22:32:44 [Zakim]
... Gian?, Doyle, Roberto_Castaldo, [IBM], Roberto_Ellero
22:32:49 [Yvette]
She walked out on me!!!
22:32:51 [Yvette]
Grrr :-)
22:33:00 [rcastaldo]
:-)
22:33:03 [wendy]
wendy has joined #wai-wcag
22:33:03 [Yvette]
RRSAgent, bye
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
I see 5 open action items:
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john write up concrete suggestion for wording for success criterion for matching link text with titles of destination pages for grouping navigation elements [1]
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-13-13
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: check with kynn about understandability (bug 422) [2]
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-24-49
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: john send proposal to clarify "not identical" [3]
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-26-46
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: gian propose wording for issue 443 [4]
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-10
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: loretta write bug re: "be deleting 4.2 level 3 #3 may throw out goal of 'people can get at this'" [5]
22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T22-23-49
22:33:15 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:33:15 [Zakim]
sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is; apparently WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:33:17 [Zakim]
On IRC I see wendy, GVAN, bcaldwell, RRSAgent, rcastaldo, rellero, Zakim, Yvette, rscano
22:33:21 [wendy]
zakim, room for 3?