IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-02-12
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 20:59:34 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 20:59:40 [Yvette]
- Hi Roberto C
- 20:59:42 [rscano]
- hi
- 20:59:52 [silvia]
- hi
- 20:59:57 [rcastaldo]
- Hi Yvette, Hi Robertos
- 21:00:01 [rcastaldo]
- Hi Silvia
- 21:00:07 [rscano]
- who open the calls?
- 21:00:45 [Yvette]
- I don't know
- 21:01:10 [rscano]
- i'm patching dialpad...
- 21:01:12 [wendy]
- zakim, this is will be WCAG
- 21:01:12 [Zakim]
- sorry, wendy, I do not see a conference named 'will be WCAG' in progress or scheduled at this time
- 21:01:19 [wendy]
- zakim, will be WCAG
- 21:01:19 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'will be WCAG', wendy
- 21:01:24 [wendy]
- zakim, will be WAI_WCAG
- 21:01:24 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'will be WAI_WCAG', wendy
- 21:01:27 [rscano]
- zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG()
- 21:01:27 [Zakim]
- ok, rscano, I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM already started
- 21:01:33 [wendy]
- :) thx
- 21:01:34 [rscano]
- zakim,who is on the phone?
- 21:01:34 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, ??P2, ??P5, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer
- 21:01:36 [rscano]
- :)
- 21:01:42 [rscano]
- opps... go :)
- 21:01:47 [Zakim]
- +Sailesh_Panchang
- 21:02:13 [Zakim]
- +??P9
- 21:02:14 [Zakim]
- +Wendy
- 21:02:24 [Zakim]
- +Avi_Arditti
- 21:02:28 [Zakim]
- +Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:02:46 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P2 may be Roberto_Scano
- 21:02:46 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Scano?; got it
- 21:02:49 [doyle]
- doyle has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:02:50 [bcaldwell]
- bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:02:57 [rscano]
- nope i'm not connected
- 21:03:20 [doyle]
- Wendy may have been me after David
- 21:03:28 [Zakim]
- +??P13
- 21:03:30 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P5 may be Gregg
- 21:03:30 [Zakim]
- +Gregg?; got it
- 21:03:33 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P13 is Roberto_Scano
- 21:03:36 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Scano; got it
- 21:03:40 [Zakim]
- +JasonWhite
- 21:03:47 [rscano]
- zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
- 21:03:47 [Zakim]
- sorry, rscano, I do not see a party named 'Roberto_Scano'
- 21:03:57 [rscano]
- zakim, who is here?
- 21:03:57 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Roberto_Scano?, Gregg?, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer, Sailesh_Panchang, ??P9, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Yvette_Hoitink,
- 21:04:00 [Zakim]
- ... Roberto_Scano, JasonWhite
- 21:04:01 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see bcaldwell, doyle, RRSAgent, rcastaldo, wendy, silvia, rellero, Zakim, Yvette, rscano
- 21:04:03 [Yvette]
- zakim, I am Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:04:03 [Zakim]
- ok, Yvette, I now associate you with Yvette_Hoitink
- 21:04:05 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 21:04:05 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see Dave_MacDonald, Roberto_Scano?, Gregg?, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer, Sailesh_Panchang, ??P9, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Yvette_Hoitink,
- 21:04:09 [Zakim]
- ... Roberto_Scano, JasonWhite
- 21:04:11 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P9 may be Gian
- 21:04:15 [rscano]
- doubleScano? :)
- 21:04:19 [Zakim]
- +Gian?; got it
- 21:04:24 [wendy]
- zakim, Ray is Doyle
- 21:04:26 [rcastaldo]
- Incredible!!!
- 21:04:27 [Zakim]
- +Doyle; got it
- 21:04:30 [GVAN]
- GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
- 21:04:31 [rcastaldo]
- 2 Roberto Scanos
- 21:04:33 [rellero]
- hi rob
- 21:04:40 [rscano]
- i hang up
- 21:04:42 [rscano]
- and recall
- 21:04:45 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Scano
- 21:04:56 [rscano]
- zakim, Roberto_Scano? is Roberto_Castaldo
- 21:04:56 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Castaldo; got it
- 21:05:10 [wendy]
- zakim, Roberto_Scano? is Roberto_Castaldo
- 21:05:10 [Zakim]
- sorry, wendy, I do not recognize a party named 'Roberto_Scano?'
- 21:05:15 [Zakim]
- +[IBM]
- 21:05:48 [wendy]
- agenda?
- 21:05:56 [wendy]
- zakim, take up item 1
- 21:05:58 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 21:05:59 [Zakim]
- agendum 1. ""guideline 3.4: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/0129.html"" taken up [from rscano]
- 21:06:04 [rscano]
- zakim, ??P16 is Roberto_Scano
- 21:06:04 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Scano; got it
- 21:06:06 [wendy]
- ??P16 is Roberto?
- 21:06:11 [rscano]
- zakim, i'm Roberto_Scano
- 21:06:11 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'i'm Roberto_Scano', rscano
- 21:06:23 [rscano]
- zakim, i am Roberto_Scano
- 21:06:23 [Zakim]
- ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
- 21:07:03 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 21:07:10 [rellero]
- zakim, ??P15 may be Roberto_ellero
- 21:07:10 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_ellero?; got it
- 21:07:18 [wendy]
- did someone just join?
- 21:07:35 [rscano]
- rellero
- 21:07:54 [rellero]
- I am P15
- 21:08:33 [rscano]
- zakim, Roberto_Ellero? is Roberto_Ellero
- 21:08:33 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_Ellero; got it
- 21:09:02 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:09:19 [wendy]
- one suggestion for testability - "repeated navigation elements" are grouped together
- 21:09:47 [wendy]
- i.e., those that appear on multiple pages
- 21:12:35 [wendy]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=443
- 21:13:13 [wendy]
- action: john write up concrete suggestion for wording for success criterion for matching link text with titles of destination pages for grouping navigation elements
- 21:14:11 [wendy]
- general process comments: we are 6 months from last publication to /TR.
- 21:14:19 [wendy]
- we need to get something published before CSUN.
- 21:14:57 [wendy]
- we have several open issues. people come to the meeting and ask the "homework" for the call to be read to them.
- 21:15:05 [wendy]
- feeling that it is the first time people are reading the recommendations.
- 21:15:28 [wendy]
- spend telecon time framing what we're going to work on, instead of closing items.
- 21:15:53 [wendy]
- we have 2 weeks to close about a dozen issues. we've been proceeding at pace of about 2/week. we need to move more quickly to get draft out before csun.
- 21:16:34 [wendy]
- why 2 weeks? tech plenary, publishing moratorium, csun, etc.
- 21:16:41 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Ellero
- 21:16:59 [wendy]
- need blessing by WCAG WG first week of march so that can be on docket for publication week of 8 march.
- 21:17:42 [wendy]
- instead of reading all of the items is to have an action item for someone who will take issues and propose solution.
- 21:17:46 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 21:17:48 [Zakim]
- -??P15
- 21:18:48 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 21:18:51 [rellero]
- zakim, ??P15 is Roberto_ellero
- 21:18:51 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_ellero; got it
- 21:19:04 [wendy]
- q+ to say "think we can close some issues today or at least verify they are open"
- 21:19:22 [wendy]
- ack
- 21:19:24 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 21:19:24 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "think we can close some issues today or at least verify they are open"
- 21:21:39 [wendy]
- ack John
- 21:22:04 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise
- 21:22:04 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who's making noise', wendy
- 21:22:06 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 21:22:12 [wendy]
- does someone else hear an echo?
- 21:22:16 [rellero]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:22:16 [Zakim]
- sorry, rellero, I do not see a party named 'rellero'
- 21:22:18 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg? (9%)
- 21:22:19 [Yvette]
- yes, I did just now
- 21:22:23 [Yvette]
- Now it's fine again
- 21:22:31 [wendy]
- john seems echo-y
- 21:22:33 [Yvette]
- Yep
- 21:24:13 [rscano]
- good
- 21:24:16 [wendy]
- 383: replace key with important. ed note that subjective.
- 21:24:21 [bcaldwell]
- Gregg and I got muted
- 21:24:30 [bcaldwell]
- zakim, who is muted?
- 21:24:30 [Zakim]
- I see Roberto_Scano muted
- 21:24:49 [wendy]
- action: check with kynn about understandability (bug 422)
- 21:25:26 [wendy]
- replace "not consistent" with "not necessarily consistent"
- 21:25:39 [wendy]
- oops, "not identical"
- 21:26:22 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 21:26:22 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 21:26:46 [wendy]
- action: john send proposal to clarify "not identical"
- 21:26:56 [wendy]
- (bug 422)
- 21:27:13 [wendy]
- "consistent across web site or application"
- 21:27:25 [Yvette]
- q+
- 21:27:31 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 21:27:31 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 21:27:51 [Yvette]
- q-
- 21:28:11 [wendy]
- bug 471:
- 21:28:20 [wendy]
- handled by john's proposed rewording?
- 21:28:25 [rscano]
- http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=471
- 21:28:25 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_ellero
- 21:28:29 [wendy]
- 443: not easily closed
- 21:29:10 [wendy]
- action: gian propose wording for issue 443
- 21:29:40 [wendy]
- if take non-testability out of it, becomes very rigid.
- 21:29:51 [wendy]
- as work on it, think about those issues.
- 21:30:05 [rellero]
- With regard to the communicative appearances, it is well known that the
- 21:30:06 [rellero]
- uniformity excess kills the communication. This is a negative aspect which
- 21:30:06 [rellero]
- distresses for example many CMS (very consistent but not communicative and rigid), we should in my opinion find a form which makes explicit the importance of a clear articulate layout , so not identical may be even an usability issue
- 21:30:06 [rellero]
- .
- 21:30:18 [wendy]
- ack Dave
- 21:30:24 [wendy]
- move to gateway?
- 21:30:37 [wendy]
- if not testable, move to gateway?
- 21:30:39 [rellero]
- I'm sorry, I have problems with the phone
- 21:30:48 [wendy]
- design principles that can't put through a/b test
- 21:31:00 [Yvette]
- what's a/b test?
- 21:31:05 [wendy]
- need an anchor in the guidelines
- 21:31:29 [wendy]
- it's a comparison between two things (a and b). i think you can say, "a is set of rules, does b meet them?"
- 21:31:36 [wendy]
- compare b to the set of rules a
- 21:31:40 [Yvette]
- ok, thx
- 21:32:31 [Zakim]
- +??P15
- 21:32:43 [rellero]
- zakim, ??P15 is Roberto_ellero
- 21:32:43 [Zakim]
- +Roberto_ellero; got it
- 21:33:09 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "Lots of database generated pages have same layout"
- 21:33:25 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:33:55 [wendy]
- sorry - w/my wonky network, i didn't see them.
- 21:33:59 [wendy]
- (have a delay)
- 21:34:01 [wendy]
- ack loretta
- 21:34:01 [Yvette]
- :-)
- 21:34:10 [wendy]
- difference between design of page and page being the same.
- 21:34:21 [wendy]
- e.g., book - design of page similar even if content is different.
- 21:34:54 [wendy]
- layout could be identical, but title and content distinguish
- 21:34:58 [rscano]
- yes... this is the example that i've done with pdf in the doc :)
- 21:35:01 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:35:01 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Lots of database generated pages have same layout"
- 21:40:12 [wendy]
- language in 315: seems testable. include in some way. http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=315
- 21:40:53 [wendy]
- time limit on action items: finish by next Tuesday
- 21:41:00 [wendy]
- ===
- 21:41:04 [wendy]
- close this item
- 21:41:11 [wendy]
- take up item 2
- 21:41:16 [Yvette]
- Proposal: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2004JanMar/att-0142/2004-jan-28-princ4-proposal.html
- 21:46:35 [Yvette]
- q+ to ask "Why have you moved the use of accessibility conventions to 4.1?"
- 21:49:14 [wendy]
- if say "any user interface elements" would then apply to forms and similar interface elements. thus "programmatic" remains.
- 21:49:28 [wendy]
- trying to trap for those user interface elements created by the author.
- 21:49:59 [wendy]
- q?
- 21:52:04 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_ellero
- 21:55:31 [bcaldwell]
- ack John
- 21:55:34 [wendy]
- ack john
- 21:55:36 [wendy]
- ack yvette
- 21:55:36 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to ask "Why have you moved the use of accessibility conventions to 4.1?"
- 21:55:57 [wendy]
- (level 2)
- 21:57:19 [wendy]
- move from 4.1 to 4.2
- 21:57:31 [wendy]
- "where appropriate"
- 22:00:33 [wendy]
- ack dave
- 22:01:39 [wendy]
- q+ to say "put an editorial note on this. someone take an action to look at all uses of 'appropriately' in the doc?"
- 22:04:04 [wendy]
- "there are some exceptions to this rule depending on support"
- 22:04:11 [wendy]
- ack Loretta
- 22:04:33 [wendy]
- redundant to say use accessibility conventions?
- 22:05:16 [wendy]
- thus get rid of it
- 22:06:20 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 22:06:31 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Roberto_Castaldo (77%), Doyle (9%), Gian? (39%), Yvette_Hoitink (9%)
- 22:06:37 [Yvette]
- zakim, mute me
- 22:06:37 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
- 22:06:38 [rscano]
- zakim, mute Roberto_Castaldo
- 22:06:38 [Zakim]
- Roberto_Castaldo should now be muted
- 22:06:45 [rscano]
- opps
- 22:07:46 [wendy]
- ack andi
- 22:08:04 [wendy]
- agree with loretta - if meet all of the requirements, what difference does it make? you've probably already used it.
- 22:08:07 [wendy]
- ack wendy
- 22:08:07 [Zakim]
- wendy, you wanted to say "put an editorial note on this. someone take an action to look at all uses of 'appropriately' in the doc?"
- 22:08:09 [doyle]
- we may want to write out what API stands for - I assume Application Program Interface
- 22:08:10 [wendy]
- ack [IBM]
- 22:08:27 [wendy]
- move to techniques and tie to level 1 criterion
- 22:10:45 [wendy]
- move level 2 4.1 criteria "accessibility conventions of the markup or programming language (API's or specific markup) are used where appropriate [X] " to techniques
- 22:10:51 [wendy]
- [resolved]
- 22:11:33 [Yvette]
- zakim, unmute me
- 22:11:33 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
- 22:11:58 [wendy]
- fyi: defn of programmatic:
- 22:11:58 [wendy]
- Of, relating to, or having a program.
- 22:11:58 [wendy]
- Following an overall plan or schedule: a step-by-step, programmatic approach to problem solving.
- 22:11:58 [wendy]
- Music. Of, resembling, or constituting program music.
- 22:12:04 [wendy]
- http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=programmatic
- 22:12:45 [Yvette]
- q+ to say "4.1 level 1 # 1 : Presupposes 1 plugin for content. Is it enough if 1 accessible plugin exists?"
- 22:14:23 [wendy]
- custom seems like better wordl
- 22:14:27 [wendy]
- s/wordl/word
- 22:15:42 [wendy]
- level 3: very restrictive. needed?
- 22:18:02 [rcastaldo]
- ok
- 22:18:09 [rscano]
- ok
- 22:19:32 [wendy]
- amendments: delete level 2 criterion in 4.1
- 22:20:31 [wendy]
- delete 3rd item in level 3: create a bug
- 22:21:34 [wendy]
- "public spec available"
- 22:21:49 [wendy]
- pdf not developed by open process, but has an public spec
- 22:22:49 [wendy]
- may have thrown out basic goal of "people can get at this" but not sure of crisp way to say.
- 22:23:20 [rcastaldo]
- Good job :-)
- 22:23:46 [Yvette]
- ack Yvette
- 22:23:46 [Zakim]
- Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "4.1 level 1 # 1 : Presupposes 1 plugin for content. Is it enough if 1 accessible plugin exists?"
- 22:23:49 [wendy]
- action: loretta write bug re: "be deleting 4.2 level 3 #3 may throw out goal of 'people can get at this'"
- 22:25:44 [rscano]
- plugin definition in UAAG 1.0: A plug-in is a program that runs as part of the user agent and that is not part of content. Users generally choose to include or exclude plug-ins from their user agent.
- 22:26:11 [wendy]
- 4.2 level 1 #1: at least one plug-in to require these things meets... "~link is provided from the content"
- 22:26:53 [Zakim]
- -Gian?
- 22:31:06 [Yvette]
- Wendy can I ask you something after the meeting?
- 22:31:20 [Zakim]
- -Sailesh_Panchang
- 22:31:27 [rcastaldo]
- Bye
- 22:31:30 [Zakim]
- -John_Slatin
- 22:31:31 [Zakim]
- -[IBM]
- 22:31:31 [Zakim]
- -Yvette_Hoitink
- 22:31:32 [Zakim]
- -Dave_MacDonald
- 22:31:32 [Zakim]
- -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
- 22:31:33 [Zakim]
- -Doyle
- 22:31:33 [silvia]
- Bye all!
- 22:31:34 [Zakim]
- -Roberto_Scano
- 22:31:35 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 22:31:37 [Zakim]
- -Gregg?
- 22:31:39 [Zakim]
- -Avi_Arditti
- 22:31:39 [silvia]
- silvia has left #wai-wcag
- 22:31:41 [Yvette]
- Wendy, I heard of the tight time schedule
- 22:31:44 [Zakim]
- -JasonWhite
- 22:31:54 [rcastaldo]
- Ciao a tutti
- 22:31:54 [Yvette]
- I don't have much time the next two weeks to work on my new summary
- 22:32:02 [Yvette]
- Ciao a uno :-)
- 22:32:20 [rcastaldo]
- :-D
- 22:32:20 [Yvette]
- Is it too late if I finish it by the end of February?
- 22:32:40 [Zakim]
- -Wendy
- 22:32:41 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 22:32:42 [Zakim]
- Attendees were Dave_MacDonald, [Microsoft], John_Slatin, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ray_Whitmer, Sailesh_Panchang, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Yvette_Hoitink, Gregg?, Roberto_Scano, JasonWhite,
- 22:32:44 [Zakim]
- ... Gian?, Doyle, Roberto_Castaldo, [IBM], Roberto_Ellero
- 22:32:49 [Yvette]
- She walked out on me!!!
- 22:32:51 [Yvette]
- Grrr :-)
- 22:33:00 [rcastaldo]
- :-)
- 22:33:03 [wendy]
- wendy has joined #wai-wcag
- 22:33:03 [Yvette]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- I see 5 open action items:
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john write up concrete suggestion for wording for success criterion for matching link text with titles of destination pages for grouping navigation elements [1]
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-13-13
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: check with kynn about understandability (bug 422) [2]
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-24-49
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: john send proposal to clarify "not identical" [3]
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-26-46
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: gian propose wording for issue 443 [4]
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T21-29-10
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: loretta write bug re: "be deleting 4.2 level 3 #3 may throw out goal of 'people can get at this'" [5]
- 22:33:03 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/02/12-wai-wcag-irc#T22-23-49
- 22:33:15 [wendy]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 22:33:15 [Zakim]
- sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is; apparently WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
- 22:33:17 [Zakim]
- On IRC I see wendy, GVAN, bcaldwell, RRSAgent, rcastaldo, rellero, Zakim, Yvette, rscano
- 22:33:21 [wendy]
- zakim, room for 3?