IRC log of ua on 2004-02-06

Timestamps are in UTC.

01:00:12 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #ua
01:00:18 [MattSEA]
zakim, this is WAI_UAWG
01:00:18 [Zakim]
ok, MattSEA; that matches WAI_UAWG(mozilla)8:00PM
01:01:02 [Zakim]
+ +1.512.246.aabb
01:01:17 [MattSEA]
zakim, call matt-bos
01:01:17 [Zakim]
ok, MattSEA; the call is being made
01:01:18 [Zakim]
01:02:20 [janina]
janina has joined #ua
01:03:43 [MattSEA]
Regrets: Harvey Bingham, Jim Allan
01:05:10 [Zakim]
01:05:58 [MattSEA]
zakim, ??P4 is Cathy_Laws
01:05:58 [Zakim]
+Cathy_Laws; got it
01:06:21 [MattSEA]
zakim, who's here?
01:06:21 [Zakim]
On the phone I see +1.217.398.aaaa, ??P1, Janina, +1.512.246.aabb, Matt, Cathy_Laws
01:06:23 [Zakim]
On IRC I see janina, RRSAgent, Zakim, MattSEA
01:06:34 [MattSEA]
zakim, aaaa is Jon_Gunderson
01:06:34 [Zakim]
+Jon_Gunderson; got it
01:06:41 [MattSEA]
zakim, Matt is me
01:06:41 [Zakim]
+MattSEA; got it
01:06:52 [MattSEA]
zakim, ??P1 is Sun_Beijing
01:06:52 [Zakim]
+Sun_Beijing; got it
01:09:12 [MattSEA]
Janina Sajka, representing Free Standards Group (
01:10:17 [MattSEA]
zakim, who's making noise?
01:10:32 [Zakim]
MattSEA, listening for 13 seconds I heard sound from the following: Jon_Gunderson (3%), Sun_Beijing (100%)
01:11:11 [MattSEA]
Working on debugging Mozilla accessibility, based on 1.6. Fixed bug to allow Mozilla to work with Gnopernicus and GOK.
01:11:29 [MattSEA]
jg: Trying to add GNOME Accessibility APIs to Mozilla?
01:11:41 [MattSEA]
sun: That has already been implemented. Now focusing on bug fixing.
01:12:16 [MattSEA]
sun: Many small bugs in ATK portion.
01:12:37 [MattSEA]
jg: This will be compatible with 2.4?
01:12:46 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
01:13:27 [MattSEA]
jg: Have you added new UI features to Mozilla 1.6? For example, navigating header markup of a document?
01:13:45 [MattSEA]
jg: Or focusing on making UI work with screen reader?
01:14:00 [MattSEA]
sun: First focusing on exposing Mozilla's UI to the user agent.
01:14:09 [MattSEA]
Cathy: Is the content in the form of a tree structure?
01:15:14 [MattSEA]
sun: We're exposing Mozilla's content through ATK libraries. Can expose content via DOM tree.
01:16:29 [MattSEA]
jg: We have a section in UAAG related to compatibility with ATs. Part of that requirement provides for supporting access to content through DOM, but also through accessibility APIs. Is the GNOME API much different from DOM?
01:17:16 [MattSEA]
sun: We're exposing the content based on the GNOME API. Not exactly the same as DOM object model. For example, for HTML content, we move a paragraph into one accessibility object no matter how many nodes are in it.
01:18:14 [MattSEA]
jg: Through that interface, can the screen reader know the difference between a p or a h1?
01:18:40 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes. The data is different.
01:18:53 [MattSEA]
jg: Attributes, such as title?
01:19:17 [MattSEA]
sun: Some of it is implemented, but not all.
01:19:59 [MattSEA]
sun: Part of it is implemented by AT.
01:20:54 [MattSEA]
sun: We can implement some of the attributes. Does UAAG require all attribs to be accessible?
01:20:57 [MattSEA]
jg: Yes.
01:21:18 [MattSEA]
sun: We can conform to some of the P1 items.
01:28:48 [MattSEA]
Cathy: Does this support onmouseover?
01:28:49 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: (from evaluation report) Mouse events not supported via keyboard emulation.
01:31:23 [MattSEA]
01:35:06 [MattSEA]
jg: 1.3 requires text messages for errors, where graphics or sound are used. What would Mozilla send to Gnopernicus?
01:35:29 [MattSEA]
sun: Gnopernicus can't read the status of download windows, etc.
01:35:59 [MattSEA]
jg: Is that just for Mozilla, or for any dialog box?
01:37:36 [MattSEA]
janina: In my experience, I've seen it, but I'm reluctant to generalize on that.
01:38:04 [MattSEA]
jg: Part of the issue is getting dialogs to work with ATK.
01:38:16 [MattSEA]
janina: Right, and my understanding is that it requires the Sun Java plugin to bridge that.
01:39:20 [MattSEA]
sun: There is no Java layer in Mozilla accessibility architecture. We talk directly to GNOME.
01:39:25 [MattSEA]
janina: Java isn't required?
01:39:29 [MattSEA]
sun: Not required.
01:40:52 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: Would it be possible to run an applet with the Java accessibility tools in Mozilla?
01:40:53 [MattSEA]
sun: no
01:41:50 [MattSEA]
jg: 2.1 Render content according to specification. Have you been working with the rendering engine developers?
01:43:00 [MattSEA]
sun: Mozilla is following the W3C standards.
01:44:46 [MattSEA]
jg: If a user pulled up a text view, would the screen reader be able to read it?
01:45:49 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes. It passes 2.2.
01:46:27 [MattSEA]
sun: Also compatible with screen reader.
01:48:23 [MattSEA]
jg: 2.3: Render conditional content
01:48:40 [MattSEA]
sun: We've filed bugs against these. Due to limited resources, we will fix the higher priority first.
01:48:47 [MattSEA]
jg Which ones are higher priority?
01:48:59 [MattSEA]
sun: First one, alt attribute. Longdesc and title are also important.
01:51:58 [JRG]
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01:52:11 [JRG]
01:55:22 [MattSEA]
jg: 2.4: allow time-dependent interaction.
01:55:28 [MattSEA]
sun: Don't have a test case.
01:55:41 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: 2.4-6 don't really apply to Mozilla.
01:59:45 [MattSEA]
jg: 3.2: Toggle audio, video, animated images. This is important because of people who may have seizures, etc.
02:00:02 [MattSEA]
jg: Audio may interfere with AT, if they're using speech output.
02:00:46 [kyle]
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02:00:55 [MattSEA]
jg: Do you have access to the people working on Gecko?
02:01:22 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes, we're involved with the Mozilla community.
02:01:39 [MattSEA]
jg: Is there an owner for Gecko that we can talk to about this?
02:02:23 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes, we know Gecko experts, and can talk to them about this.
02:02:43 [MattSEA]
jg: It may help them to show them what the issues are than for you to try to fix it and get them to accept the change.
02:03:41 [MattSEA]
jg: Does it support turning off blinking or scrolling?
02:03:59 [MattSEA]
sun: Can't prevent something from blinking or scrolling, but did work to stop GIF animations.
02:05:09 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: I think blink is off by default, but may be changing to on by default?
02:08:57 [MattSEA]
sun: It's now on by default.
02:09:08 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: setting in about:config: browser.blink_allowed
02:10:04 [MattSEA]
jg: Can you turn off automatic redirects and refreshes?
02:10:15 [MattSEA]
(<meta http-equiv="refresh">)
02:11:05 [MattSEA]
sun: This item should not be a pass. Mozilla can't automatically disable this.
02:11:40 [MattSEA]
jg: 4.1, 4.5 and 4.6 are not applicable
02:11:53 [MattSEA]
jg: Does Mozilla support audio at all, like background audio?
02:13:00 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: Does Mozilla generate its own audio, or does it depend on the OS for event sounds and plugins like Real/Flash for everything else?
02:13:52 [MattSEA]
jg: 4.7, 4.8, 4.9, 4.10 and 4.11 do not apply to Mozilla. Not fail.
02:14:08 [MattSEA]
jg: Does Mozilla support more than one user style sheet?
02:14:54 [MattSEA]
jg: Can you configure Mozilla to ignore author style sheets and use user style sheets?
02:15:49 [MattSEA]
sun: Currently Mozilla cannot ignore author style sheets.
02:16:03 [MattSEA]
jg: Do the gecko developers know this is a UAAG requirement?
02:16:34 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes. Someone must know this is an issue. We can talk to them.
02:17:15 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.1. Can Gnopernicus or other apps access the Gecko object model?
02:18:03 [Zakim]
02:18:08 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.1 is about providing any interface to the HTML/XML infoset. What the element is, its content, attribute name/value pairs. You already explained that most of that can be done.
02:19:42 [MattSEA]
jg: No plans to expose DOM?
02:20:04 [MattSEA]
sun: Exposing GNOME Accessibility API on Linux and Solaris. Not exactly the same as DOM.
02:20:14 [MattSEA]
jg: So no plans right now to expose DOM.
02:20:27 [MattSEA]
sun: We don't do it presently.
02:20:36 [MattSEA]
Rich: You can't access div right now?
02:22:09 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.3 is programmatic access to non-HTML/XML content. Still some problems with dialog boxes.
02:22:18 [MattSEA]
jg: Do you plan on full access to XUL?
02:22:36 [MattSEA]
sun: Have already implemented accessible XUL.
02:22:46 [MattSEA]
jg: Doesn't XUL allow you to create dialog boxes.
02:22:50 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:23:03 [MattSEA]
jg: If warning message came up, you couldn't read content of message box?
02:23:34 [MattSEA]
sun: That's because accessibility implementation depends on event system. If XUL element gets focus, it can expose that element correctly.
02:23:47 [MattSEA]
jg: User could read dialog, just has to move focus to it?
02:23:55 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:24:47 [MattSEA]
jg: It sounded like you said earlier that it couldn't read dialog boxes.
02:24:56 [MattSEA]
sun: The problem is that the user can't focus on the dialog.
02:25:03 [MattSEA]
jg: Some boxes can't receive focus?
02:25:05 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:25:24 [MattSEA]
jg: If it had a cancel button, would it receive focus.
02:25:41 [MattSEA]
sun. Yes. Only label descriptions.
02:26:00 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.4. Being provided through accessibility API.
02:26:47 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.5 Programmatic operation of user agent UI. My understanding is that with GOK, you could display events to the user. Is that supported in Mozilla?
02:27:02 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes. Mozilla can support GOK. You can select Mozilla menus.
02:27:16 [MattSEA]
jg: But can't programmatically through the AT say go to URL control?
02:28:49 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: I think you can select menu items in GOK.
02:29:08 [MattSEA]
sun: There is a bug preventing menu items from being interacted with via GOK.
02:29:52 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: Can you use keyboard to move the mouse in GOK?
02:29:54 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:31:43 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: I would say definitely once that bug is fixed, it will pass 6.6.
02:32:02 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.7 use conventional keyboard APIs. Not using any special keyboard capturing, right?
02:32:34 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: That sounds right.
02:32:50 [MattSEA]
jg: 6.8 API character encodings. Does content have character encodings?
02:33:19 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:33:34 [MattSEA]
jg: 7.1 Respect focus and selection conventions of the operating system.
02:33:46 [MattSEA]
jg: It would use GNOME's features for supporting focus and select.
02:34:26 [MattSEA]
sun: Mozilla doesn't use GNOME APIs for this.
02:34:53 [MattSEA]
Rich: Would have to send focus change events to the environment.
02:34:55 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:35:12 [MattSEA]
Rich: When you highlight text in the document area, do you send notification there?
02:35:29 [MattSEA]
Rich: If I use the mouse to highlight text.
02:35:43 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:36:42 [MattSEA]
jg: 7.2 Respect input configuration conventions. Need to make sure mouse keys and sticky keys work. You'd pass this if you're using GNOME APIs.
02:36:55 [MattSEA]
jg: What features do you think you don't support?
02:37:54 [MattSEA]
Rich: If you hit Ctrl-P, it brings up print dialog. Do you follow the same conventions in GNOME?
02:38:38 [MattSEA]
jg: In Windows, Ctrl+Shift+NumLock activates mousekeys. I shouldn't use that combination in my program.
02:40:32 [MattSEA]
Sun: I think because Mozilla is cross-platform, they have standards in Mozilla itself. Part of the shortcuts are GNOME.
02:40:53 [MattSEA]
sun: Not 100% compliant with keyboard conventions.
02:41:31 [Rich]
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02:42:37 [MattSEA]
jg: Sounds like you're pretty close.
02:42:47 [Rich]
These guys have quite a way to go
02:43:05 [MattSEA]
jg: 8.1 Implement accessibility features.
02:43:35 [Rich]
IBM is getting more involved in this
02:43:46 [MattSEA]
jg: It's a priority 1 to implement on HTML if you're an HTML browser. Alt text, accesskey, title access. We can send you more info on accessibility features of HTML.
02:44:59 [MattSEA]
sun: Any others?
02:45:48 [MattSEA]
jg: There are accessibility features documents for CSS and SVG. I don't know if there is a note, but I think Mozilla supports MathML, that has some accessibility features.
02:46:41 [MattSEA]
jg: We're working with QA to highlight accessibility features in specifications.
02:46:43 [Rich]
Problem: They don't use the DOM directly. MathML tags have no mapping to the ATSPI layer
02:46:58 [Rich]
02:47:09 [MattSEA] <- CSS accessibility features
02:47:36 [MattSEA]
jg: 10.1 Associate table cells and headers. Do you provide scope and header information to the ATs?
02:48:05 [MattSEA]
(scope attribute and headers attribute on TDs)
02:48:19 [MattSEA]
sun: We don't support this.
02:48:23 [kyle]
Rich, we are mapping the accessibility object based on DOM
02:48:39 [MattSEA]
jg: Gnopernicus doesn't get this information?
02:49:12 [kyle]
Rich, so technically, it's possible to expose MathML object through ATSPI
02:49:28 [MattSEA]
sun: Gnopernicus can read the content of the table, but not the attributes of the table element.
02:49:35 [MattSEA]
jg: Can it determine the headers for a given cell?
02:49:44 [MattSEA]
sun: No.
02:49:54 [MattSEA]
jg: Are you working on it?
02:50:04 [MattSEA]
sun: We plan to work on it.
02:50:30 [MattSEA]
jg: 10.2 pass, 10.6 pass.
02:50:41 [MattSEA]
jg: Can you reconfigure keyboard shortcuts for Mozilla?
02:50:46 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes.
02:50:59 [MattSEA]
jg: Through a config file, or through the UI?
02:51:21 [MattSEA]
sun: We cannot change the keyboard shortcuts.
02:51:37 [MattSEA]
jg: Then 11.2 says you should document what the elements are.
02:52:17 [MattSEA]
MattSEA: Technically could change in XUL chrome files.
02:52:22 [MattSEA]
sun: But not accessible to the user.
02:52:43 [MattSEA]
jg: A list of keyboard bindings is needed in the help system, so this would pass.
02:53:16 [MattSEA]
jg: 12.1 Provide accessible documentation. Is that in HTML? Is help system accessible to ATs?
02:53:50 [MattSEA]
sun: Yes, Mozilla's help file is HTML, and uses Mozilla browser window.
02:54:12 [MattSEA]
jg: OK, pass for 12.1
02:54:25 [MattSEA]
jg: 12.2 Document accessibility features. No documentation?
02:54:43 [MattSEA]
sun: Currently not. We can add that.
02:55:31 [MattSEA]
jg: 12.3 Document default bindings. This is documented, so 12.3 is pass.
02:55:58 [MattSEA]
jg: Should we meet again in 2 weeks?
02:56:00 [MattSEA]
sun: OK.
02:58:14 [MattSEA]
sun: Would like to invite Peter Korn to next meeting.
02:58:19 [MattSEA]
jg: That'd be fine.
02:59:18 [MattSEA]
jg: Next meeting Feb 26, same time.
03:00:56 [Zakim]
03:00:57 [Zakim]
- +1.512.246.aabb
03:00:57 [Zakim]
03:00:58 [Zakim]
03:00:59 [Zakim]
03:01:00 [Zakim]
03:01:04 [Zakim]
03:01:05 [Zakim]
WAI_UAWG(mozilla)8:00PM has ended
03:01:06 [Zakim]
Attendees were +1.217.398.aaaa, Janina, +1.512.246.aabb, Cathy_Laws, Jon_Gunderson, MattSEA, Sun_Beijing, Rich
03:03:03 [MattSEA]
zakim, bye
03:03:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #ua
03:03:05 [MattSEA]
rrsagent, bye
03:03:05 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items