IRC log of wai-wcag on 2004-01-08

Timestamps are in UTC.

20:54:28 [RRSAgent]: RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
20:54:32 [wendy]: zakim, list conferences
20:54:32 [Zakim]: I see WS_ArchWG()3:30PM active
20:54:33 [Zakim]: also scheduled at this time are WAI_WCAG()4:00PM, SVG_WG()4:00PM, WAI_UAWG()2:00PM
20:54:41 [wendy]: zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
20:54:41 [Zakim]: ok, wendy; I see WAI_WCAG()4:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
20:54:44 [doyle]: how's your weather...my daughter is in Portland and all is terrible there
20:55:06 [wendy]: i like snow, so its *really* wonderful. :)
20:55:37 [doyle]: Well, we have tons up here...38" in December plus stuff from wearlier
20:55:40 [wendy]: watching my husky bounce around the backyard because there is so much snow has been fun.
20:55:59 [wendy]: 38". wow.
20:55:59 [doyle]: Do you x-country ski
20:56:51 [doyle]: last night it was -5 with 60 mile per hour winds - no hot tub last evening
20:56:56 [wendy]: i have (and really enjoy it) but the last few years I've become an avid snowboarder. so, if it snows, i'm usually on the slopes.
20:56:59 [wendy]: lol
20:57:29 [doyle]: I used to ski on th epass - i went to school in Ellensburg
20:57:49 [doyle]: has anyone called-in yet?
20:59:03 [doyle]: There were many regrets for this meeting
21:00:19 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:00:19 [Zakim]: sorry, wendy, I don't know what conference this is
21:00:20 [Zakim]: On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, doyle, wendy
21:00:49 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has now started
21:00:56 [MattBOS]: MattBOS has joined #wai-wcag
21:00:56 [Zakim]: +[W3C]
21:01:01 [MattBOS]: zakim, [W3C] is me
21:01:01 [Zakim]: +MattBOS; got it
21:01:03 [doyle]: Wendy, I just used my callign card to find out I only have 81 minutes left - I will add minutes an dbe with you all soon
21:01:13 [Zakim]: +??P15
21:01:16 [Zakim]: +??P16
21:01:17 [Zakim]: +JasonWhite
21:01:23 [ben]: ben has joined #wai-wcag
21:01:32 [Zakim]: +Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:01:49 [Zakim]: +Wendy
21:01:58 [rcastaldo]: rcastaldo has joined #wai-wcag
21:02:08 [rcastaldo]: Hi everybody
21:02:43 [wendy]: ben - are you P15 or 16?
21:02:44 [Zakim]: +Andi_Snow_Weaver
21:02:50 [Zakim]: + +1.206.484.aaaa
21:03:01 [ben]: not sure - probably 15
21:03:09 [wendy]: zakim, ??P15 may be Ben
21:03:09 [Zakim]: +Ben?; got it
21:03:23 [Zakim]: +Michael_Cooper
21:03:26 [wendy]: zakim, +1.206.484.aaaa may be Mike_Barta
21:03:26 [Zakim]: +Mike_Barta?; got it
21:03:30 [wendy]: zakim, who's on the phone?
21:03:30 [Zakim]: On the phone I see MattBOS, Ben?, ??P16, JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Mike_Barta?, Michael_Cooper
21:04:12 [rellero]: rellero has joined #wai-wcag
21:04:17 [rellero]: Hi
21:04:22 [rcastaldo]: ciao
21:04:44 [rellero]: today I can follow only in irc
21:04:58 [wendy]: zakim, ??P16 may be Roberto_Castaldo
21:04:58 [Zakim]: +Roberto_Castaldo?; got it
21:05:12 [wendy]: zakim, Mike_Barta is Mike_Barta
21:05:12 [Zakim]: +Mike_Barta; got it
21:05:14 [wendy]: :)
21:05:23 [bengt]: bengt has joined #wai-wcag
21:05:52 [wendy]: ===
21:05:56 [wendy]: guideline 2.1
21:05:57 [wendy]: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0588.html
21:06:04 [Zakim]: +Ray_Whitmer
21:06:10 [Zakim]: +??P26
21:06:16 [wendy]: zakim, Ray_Whitmer is Doyle
21:06:16 [Zakim]: +Doyle; got it
21:06:20 [wendy]: zakim, ??P26 is Bengt
21:06:20 [Zakim]: +Bengt; got it
21:07:00 [wendy]: Loretta reads proposed rewording.
21:09:18 [wendy]: was this on andi's list?
21:11:56 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=410
21:12:14 [wendy]: take "at least" out of parens.
21:12:22 [wendy]: it does say "all functionality>
21:12:24 [wendy]: "
21:12:30 [wendy]: said that before.
21:13:10 [wendy]: create a note under level 1 that says, "min is keyboard but doesn't exclude other interfaces"
21:13:48 [wendy]: http://trace.wisc.edu/bugzilla_wcag/show_bug.cgi?id=346 - no proposed defn of operable (?)
21:14:59 [wendy]: defn of operable could help clarify the criteria. don't see prposed defn of operable.
21:16:40 [wendy]: proposed defn of operable through keyboard interface:
21:16:40 [wendy]: Content is operable when it is properly designed in a way that all the
21:16:40 [wendy]: information is reachable and all the funcionality is available through an
21:16:40 [wendy]: efficient use of a keyboard interface. An appropriate hierarchical
21:16:40 [wendy]: collection of keyboard shortcuts or a navigation bar situated after each
21:16:41 [wendy]: section strengthens operability. Intensive use of tabbing weakens
21:16:43 [wendy]: operability due to monotony and lack of a clear structure.
21:16:52 [wendy]: last 2 sentences are subjective.
21:16:57 [wendy]: too much tabbing makes it unusable.
21:17:15 [wendy]: action: andi propose defn of operable through a keyboard interface
21:17:42 [wendy]: The U.S. Access Board writes:
21:17:42 [wendy]: We agree that a webpage should be navigatable by keyboard commands.
21:17:42 [wendy]: However, there is always the issue of how much keyboard access is the
21:17:42 [wendy]: responsibility of the webpage designer versus the capability of the specific
21:17:42 [wendy]: browser being used by the person accessing the page.
21:18:03 [wendy]: --
21:18:55 [wendy]: If there are user agents that support the technologies you are using and that meet principle 4, and the user agents+content meet guidelines, then author should not do anything further. however, this idea needs more work.
21:19:09 [wendy]: clear that if ua does it, author doesn't have to.
21:19:22 [wendy]: isn't that "until user agents" said differently?
21:19:54 [wendy]: q+ to say "reminiscent of baseline discussions"
21:20:03 [wendy]: ack wendy
21:20:03 [Zakim]: wendy, you wanted to say "reminiscent of baseline discussions"
21:20:53 [wendy]: and mapping to UAAG 1.0 conformance profile
21:22:41 [wendy]: action: jason write proposal about user agent support and author responsibility (take into consideration wendy and loretta's work from f2f after csun in march)
21:23:05 [wendy]: action: wendy dig up notes from loretta and wendy discussion from post-csun f2f about UAAG
21:24:11 [wendy]: proposals for changing 2.1 - 1. parenthetical/note to clarify that other access methods may be available and 2. to clarify "at least"
21:25:25 [wendy]: action: ben write note that clarifies that other access methods may be available and to clarify "at least" (which is related to defn of operable, see andi's action item)
21:27:03 [wendy]: "Functionality or outcome can be expressed in words":
21:27:18 [Zakim]: +Dave_MacDonald
21:27:19 [wendy]: seems to have success criteria embeded into defn.
21:27:34 [wendy]: it has examples. hard to define w/out.
21:29:21 [wendy]: ack Loretta
21:29:35 [wendy]: does some of this discussion belong in techniques gateway?
21:29:41 [wendy]: techniques for providing keyboard access.
21:30:00 [wendy]: techs for keyboard access are technology-specific.
21:30:14 [wendy]: analog volume control feels like in techniques gateway - it is not tech-specific.
21:30:25 [wendy]: should be enough guidance in guidelines that techs can hook into it.
21:31:27 [wendy]: possible rewording to make it a defn: Functionality that can be accomplished using buttons or command line interfaces is can be expressed in words. Continuous analong control of an interface is not able to be expressed in words.
21:31:55 [wendy]: Everything after "note:" is useful info but not a definition.
21:32:08 [wendy]: could expand on it in the techniques gateway
21:33:19 [wendy]: examples clarify defn, but "more primitive form of control..." should not be there.
21:34:39 [wendy]: action: wendy propose rewrite of defn for "functionality or outcome can be expressed in words"
21:35:03 [wendy]: trying to define "functionality or outcome can be expressed in words" but this feels like a defn of "keyboard-accessible"
21:35:13 [wendy]: how do we use this defn to distinguish between level 1 and other criteria?
21:35:42 [wendy]: level 1: exception for functionality that can not be expressed in words. level 3: no exception (thus at level 3 can not have that functionality in your content)
21:36:15 [wendy]: illustrates the diff between content that can or can not be expressed in words. thus example rather than defn.
21:38:07 [ben]: ben has joined #wai-wcag
21:38:37 [wendy]: ack mike
21:39:14 [wendy]: if a function can be expressed in words, it means that there are discrete values that can be labeled (or small number of words). if a function can not be expressed in words, it is usually something that requires a gestural interaction - gestures typically require a mouse gesture.
21:39:28 [wendy]: continuous or discrete
21:39:34 [wendy]: image map: could be tabbable
21:39:57 [wendy]: ack Dave
21:42:02 [wendy]: mapquest map, every pixel is hot.
21:43:36 [wendy]: alternate controls to them: e.g., zoom in/out, west/east, etc.
21:43:47 [wendy]: if functionality is available, then meets the requirements.
21:44:03 [wendy]: inconsistent with other guidelines where we say "or altnerative..."
21:44:23 [wendy]: need 2 success criteria in or? or put in "or equiv control provided"
21:44:44 [wendy]: if the functionality is operable, it meets the requirement.
21:45:59 [wendy]: in defn of operable, clarify that it doesn't have to be the same control or part of the interface as long as same function is performed.
21:46:00 [doyle]: raises hand
21:46:06 [wendy]: ack doyle
21:47:05 [wendy]: talking about input, should also be concerned with output. could input info, but (in case of mapquest) what does output look like if you can't see the map. e.g., they also give directions in written form below graphic of map.
21:47:17 [wendy]: other guideline - 1.1?
21:47:35 [wendy]: if can't be expressed textually, in 1.1., then no other way of doing it.
21:49:24 [wendy]: action: Mike review guidelines for consistency in how we address primary content or providing alternative (what it takes to meet the guideline. inherent that if have alternative access as part of content you satisfy, or if alternatives are called out in the guideline)
21:50:37 [wendy]: IBM software guideline say "all functions that are not inherently mouse functions have to be operable via keyboard" then give examples of what is/is not mouse operable.
21:50:38 [silvia]: silvia has joined #wai-wcag
21:50:43 [silvia]: Hi
21:50:52 [rcastaldo]: ciao Silvia
21:51:17 [silvia]: ciao, scusate il ritardo
21:51:18 [wendy]: action: Andi forward IBM software guidelines reference.
21:51:21 [wendy]: actions?
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: sees 7 open action items:
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: andi propose defn of operable through a keyboard interface [1]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-17-15
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jason write proposal about user agent support and author responsibility (take into consideration wendy and loretta's work from f2f after csun in march) [2]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-22-41
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy dig up notes from loretta and wendy discussion from post-csun f2f about UAAG [3]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-23-05
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ben write note that clarifies that other access methods may be available and to clarify "at least" (which is related to defn of operable, see andi's action item) [4]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-25-25
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy propose rewrite of defn for "functionality or outcome can be expressed in words" [5]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-34-39
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Mike review guidelines for consistency in how we address primary content or providing alternative (what it takes to meet the guideline. inherent that if have alternative access as part of content you satisfy, or if alternatives are called out in the guideline) [6]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-49-24
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Andi forward IBM software guidelines reference. [7]
21:51:22 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-51-18
21:53:14 [wendy]: jason willing to work on action #5 w/wendy
21:54:00 [wendy]: defn of keyboard interface
21:54:19 [wendy]: add defn of "alternate keyboard"
21:54:34 [wendy]: add to the end "as if it were being controlled by a standard keyboard"
21:55:00 [wendy]: what if the device doesn't have a keyboard or possibility of keyboard?
21:55:06 [wendy]: telephone has keypad.
21:55:19 [wendy]: addressed in example 2 (of 2.1)
21:55:33 [wendy]: if content can not be used that does have a keyboard, then doesn't conform.
21:55:41 [wendy]: does a telephone keypad count as a keyboard?
21:56:03 [wendy]: then perhaps don't need addendum
21:57:27 [wendy]: "alternate text entry methods" an umbrella statement. if some other way to get it there, that counts, too.
21:58:52 [wendy]: strike "add to the end "as if it were being controlled by a standard keyboard""
21:59:19 [wendy]: action: Michael add clarification to defn of "keyboard interface" to include keyboard-style interfaces.
21:59:39 [wendy]: clarify what control by keyboard interface means.
21:59:41 [wendy]: drop action 8
21:59:47 [wendy]: RRSAgent, drop action 8
21:59:59 [wendy]: action: Michael add clarification to defn of "keyboard interface" to include keyboard-style interfaces. clarify what control by keyboard interface means.
22:00:27 [wendy]: ===
22:00:33 [wendy]: defn of input device event handlers
22:00:54 [wendy]: drop the last sentence (that is HTML-specific)
22:02:50 [wendy]: also defn of abstract event
22:03:00 [wendy]: could be rewritten in more general and plain language.
22:03:12 [wendy]: 1st: clarify what an event handler does and that there are diff types
22:03:21 [wendy]: 2nd: what abstract are capable of that device-specific are not
22:04:12 [wendy]: action: propose rewrite defns of input device event handlers and abstract events.
22:04:27 [wendy]: drop action 10
22:05:28 [wendy]: action: david propose rewrite defns of input device event handlers and abstract events. input device event handlers should define what an event handler is and that there are two types (abstract and device-dependent). defn of abstract build on defn of event handler.
22:06:18 [wendy]: ===
22:06:54 [wendy]: wording suggestion for level 3: strike "in some fashion or degree" from end of criterion.
22:07:05 [wendy]: agreed
22:07:28 [wendy]: ===
22:08:16 [wendy]: when look at keyboard interfaces, some devices are keyboard with integrated mouse interface. e.g., intellikeys that can do mouse and keyboard functions.
22:08:24 [wendy]: it is more than a keyboard interface.
22:09:01 [wendy]: or satisfies the requirement of keyboard interface
22:09:20 [wendy]: i.e., if operable via intellikeys, operable via a keyboard interface
22:09:30 [wendy]: ===
22:09:37 [wendy]: http://www.w3.org/2003/12/wcag10-errata-table.html
22:13:55 [wendy]: wac provides overview of errata in table
22:21:10 [wendy]: michael willing to help document evidence of why to deprecate or not deprecate.
22:21:27 [wendy]: ===
22:21:34 [wendy]: upcoming f2f meetings
22:25:29 [wendy]: techs task force 4&5 March in Cannes (part of tech plenary)
22:25:47 [wendy]: rest of group likely to meet after csun - 20/21 march in l.a.
22:25:54 [wendy]: registration and other info to follow.
22:26:11 [wendy]: to register: will need to create public w3c account to use new registration system
22:26:16 [Zakim]: -MattBOS
22:26:17 [Zakim]: -Michael_Cooper
22:26:18 [Zakim]: -Mike_Barta
22:26:19 [Zakim]: -Doyle
22:26:20 [Zakim]: -Wendy
22:26:21 [rcastaldo]: rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
22:26:21 [Zakim]: -Andi_Snow_Weaver
22:26:22 [Zakim]: -Loretta_Guarino_Reid
22:26:23 [Zakim]: -Ben?
22:26:24 [rellero]: bye
22:26:24 [Zakim]: -Dave_MacDonald
22:26:25 [Zakim]: -Bengt
22:26:27 [Zakim]: -Roberto_Castaldo?
22:26:28 [silvia]: bye
22:26:29 [Zakim]: -JasonWhite
22:26:31 [Zakim]: WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:26:33 [Zakim]: Attendees were MattBOS, JasonWhite, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Wendy, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Ben?, Michael_Cooper, Mike_Barta?, Roberto_Castaldo?, Mike_Barta, Doyle, Bengt, Dave_MacDonald
22:26:42 [silvia]: silvia has left #wai-wcag
22:26:53 [bengt]: bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:26:55 [MattBOS]: MattBOS has left #wai-wcag
22:27:37 [wendy]: zakim, bye
22:27:37 [Zakim]: Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:27:42 [wendy]: RRSAgent, bye
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: I see 10 open action items:
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: andi propose defn of operable through a keyboard interface [1]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-17-15
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: jason write proposal about user agent support and author responsibility (take into consideration wendy and loretta's work from f2f after csun in march) [2]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-22-41
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy dig up notes from loretta and wendy discussion from post-csun f2f about UAAG [3]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-23-05
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: ben write note that clarifies that other access methods may be available and to clarify "at least" (which is related to defn of operable, see andi's action item) [4]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-25-25
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: wendy propose rewrite of defn for "functionality or outcome can be expressed in words" [5]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-34-39
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Mike review guidelines for consistency in how we address primary content or providing alternative (what it takes to meet the guideline. inherent that if have alternative access as part of content you satisfy, or if alternatives are called out in the guideline) [6]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-49-24
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Andi forward IBM software guidelines reference. [7]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-51-18
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: Michael add clarification to defn of "keyboard interface" to include keyboard-style interfaces. clarify what control by keyboard interface means. [9]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T21-59-59
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: propose rewrite defns of input device event handlers and abstract events. [10]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T22-04-12
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: ACTION: david propose rewrite defns of input device event handlers and abstract events. input device event handlers should define what an event handler is and that there are two types (abstract and device-dependent). defn of abstract build on defn of event handler. [11]
22:27:42 [RRSAgent]: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2004/01/08-wai-wcag-irc#T22-05-28