IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-12-17

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:02:37 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:16 [ben]
ben has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:41 [Zakim]
+??P18
15:03:52 [wendy]
zakim, ??P18 is Ben_Caldwell
15:03:52 [Zakim]
+Ben_Caldwell; got it
15:06:03 [wendy]
agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0565.html
15:06:28 [wendy]
user agent support page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support
15:06:39 [Zakim]
+Tim_Boland
15:07:15 [ChrisR]
ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
15:08:32 [wendy]
1.3: still need to record an audio description.
15:10:56 [wendy]
how relate to timed text work?
15:11:27 [wendy]
a microsoft sami demo from a while ago that demonstrated this concept?
15:11:33 [Zakim]
+??P3
15:12:24 [wendy]
action: wendy look into wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.3 user agent support page info (microsoft demo? timed text work?).
15:12:49 [wendy]
zakim, ??P3 is Lisa_Seeman
15:12:49 [Zakim]
+Lisa_Seeman; got it
15:12:55 [wendy]
zakim, who's muted?
15:12:55 [Zakim]
I see Lisa_Seeman muted
15:13:06 [wendy]
wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.3: Until user agents can automatically read aloud the text equivalent of a visual track, provide an auditory description of the important information of the visual track of a multimedia presentation.
15:13:07 [wendy]
===
15:13:18 [wendy]
1.5 Until user agents render text equivalents for client-side image map links, provide redundant text links for each active region of a client-side image map.
15:14:36 [wendy]
need a new test page.
15:17:55 [wendy]
action: Dave - create a test page and test if text equivalents are shown for client-side image maps for wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.5.
15:18:22 [wendy]
instead of asking author to do something, ask users to use tools.
15:19:47 [wendy]
other options: have transcoding of some sort (a proxy) that will generate page for user.
15:20:34 [wendy]
action: ben look at client-side proxy tools that help with checkpoint 1.5 (muffin) - tools that convert image maps to plain text.
15:20:53 [wendy]
need to gather evidence that this is not longer an author requirement.
15:21:28 [wendy]
===
15:21:49 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.1 Until user agents allow users to control flickering, avoid causing the screen to flicker.
15:22:11 [wendy]
Is disabling features an acceptable solution? turning off images, scriptping.
15:22:25 [wendy]
IE to press escape and stop animated gifs, close to what we want.
15:24:53 [wendy]
ideally have a tool that runs on person with PSE computer that disables flicker on the fly.
15:25:57 [wendy]
tool for author is first priority (of trace's work)
15:26:09 [wendy]
looks like we keep this one.
15:26:29 [wendy]
===
15:26:33 [wendy]
similar for 7.2 and 7.3?
15:26:46 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.2 Until user agents allow users to control blinking, avoid causing content to blink (i.e., change presentation at a regular rate, such as turning on and off).
15:27:02 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.3 Until user agents allow users to freeze moving content, avoid movement in pages.
15:28:06 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.4 Until user agents provide the ability to stop the refresh, do not create periodically auto-refreshing pages.
15:28:43 [wendy]
(oops, not 7.4 yet. discussing 7.2 and 7.3) - blinking and freezing
15:29:00 [wendy]
even if can disable blink element, plug-ins could be blinking.
15:29:05 [wendy]
for blink element, could have user style sheet.
15:29:28 [wendy]
lump 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3?
15:30:57 [wendy]
7.1 seems diff. ok to lump 7.2 and 7.3.
15:32:31 [wendy]
can't avoid movement in pages (popularity of animation sites)
15:32:40 [wendy]
user issue? tools to do it?
15:33:26 [wendy]
look at client-side tools for all of these.
15:33:51 [wendy]
action: wendy update references to UAAG 1.0 checkpoints
15:34:24 [wendy]
action: wendy link to UAAG 1.0 test suite results for relevant UAAG 1.0 checkpoints.
15:35:23 [wendy]
can't deprecate 7.2 and 7.3 yet. yet, movement is common (other checkpoints apply)
15:35:43 [wendy]
===
15:35:56 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.4 Until user agents provide the ability to stop the refresh, do not create periodically auto-refreshing pages.
15:37:56 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.5 Until user agents provide the ability to stop auto-redirect, do not use markup to redirect pages automatically. Instead, configure the server to perform redirects.
15:38:11 [wendy]
Opera does good job. Handles scripts as well?
15:39:22 [wendy]
action: michael test wcag 1.0 checkpoint 7.4 and 7.5
15:39:52 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 checkpoint 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user.
15:40:01 [wendy]
google toolbar blocks pop-ups.
15:40:41 [wendy]
opera does as well.
15:40:51 [wendy]
run into situations where have to change settings in order to use a site.
15:42:15 [wendy]
is changing user agent settings on-the-fly acceptable? (i.e., enough reason to deprecate this checkpoint - that UA can be configured but has to be on-the-fly...user knowing enough to make changes)
15:42:43 [wendy]
issue: linear progression and knowing that are in a new window
15:44:41 [wendy]
state of world in 1999 was that pop-up ads were not common. this checkpoint not written to address them. state of world in 2003/2004... how these checkpoints apply today.
15:45:56 [wendy]
good usability practice to inform user that link will open in a new window.
15:46:10 [wendy]
authors still have ability to create confusing interfaces, probably can't deprecate this.
15:46:32 [wendy]
however, problem has been lessened (since 1999) since screen readers didn't alert to new window being opened. now do. although some users miss this.
15:46:53 [wendy]
===
15:47:08 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 10.2 Until user agents support explicit associations between labels and form controls, for all form controls with implicitly associated labels, ensure that the label is properly positioned.
15:47:25 [wendy]
likely to deprecate. have test results from UAAG 1.0 test suite. Michael has some test results as well.
15:48:07 [wendy]
action: michael summarize test results for placement of form controls and explicit association.
15:48:09 [wendy]
===
15:48:37 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 10.3 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render side-by-side text correctly, provide a linear text alternative (on the current page or some other) for all tables that lay out text in parallel, word-wrapped columns.
15:50:08 [wendy]
deprecate this. 5.3 remains: Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2]
15:50:46 [wendy]
(i.e., authors don't need to provide text alternative, but table needs to linearize)
15:51:06 [wendy]
action: michael update UA info for 10.3
15:51:22 [wendy]
===
15:51:31 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default, place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas.
15:51:37 [wendy]
already have proposal to deprecate
15:51:38 [wendy]
===
15:51:55 [wendy]
Checkpoint 10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links.
15:51:59 [wendy]
recently raised on the list.
15:52:46 [wendy]
when this created, screen reader would mix up links that were not separated.
15:52:49 [wendy]
no longer a problem.
15:53:26 [wendy]
good test page: http://www.w3.org/1999/11/wai-test-links.html
15:55:10 [wendy]
action: dave test for checkpoint 10.5
15:55:14 [wendy]
testing safari?
15:55:41 [wendy]
jenae has safari
15:57:20 [wendy]
action: michael and wendy create matrix of checkpoints and user agents and who testing
15:57:40 [wendy]
WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 13.6 Group related links, identify the group (for user agents), and, until user agents do so, provide a way to bypass the group.
15:57:55 [wendy]
UA don't provide way to bypass groups yet
15:58:01 [wendy]
===
15:58:23 [wendy]
QA Test Guidelines
15:58:44 [wendy]
Jenae's questions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0568.html
16:00:42 [Zakim]
+??P16
16:00:56 [wendy]
zakim, ??P16 Tom_Croucher
16:00:56 [Zakim]
I don't understand '??P16 Tom_Croucher', wendy
16:01:02 [wendy]
zakim, ??P16 is Tom_Croucher
16:01:02 [Zakim]
+Tom_Croucher; got it
16:01:44 [wendy]
zakim, mute Tom
16:01:44 [Zakim]
Tom_Croucher should now be muted
16:02:20 [wendy]
[jenae takes notes during discussion of QA Framework: Test Guidelines]
16:04:13 [wendy]
QA Process Document: define test materials
16:04:29 [wendy]
spelling that out, that will be our testing approach (ala checkpoint 1.3 of QA Test Guidelines)
16:04:50 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl1cp3
16:05:14 [wendy]
are we testing guidelines or techniques?
16:05:23 [wendy]
need to test techniques as well, but a distinct process from testing guidelines.
16:07:55 [wendy]
2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl2cp1
16:08:28 [wendy]
assertions: different from our success criteria?
16:10:19 [wendy]
apply to html checklist items? apply to html techniques (for example) rather than success criteria?
16:10:50 [wendy]
using techniques to test the guidelines. in which case, testable assertions in html technques (for example) could satisfy this QA checkpoint.
16:11:04 [wendy]
if use techniques to test guidelines, could miss some aspect of guidelines.
16:11:05 [sh1mmer]
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16:11:12 [wendy]
are guidelines 100% translatable into techniques?
16:11:26 [sh1mmer]
zakim, who is on the phone
16:11:26 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who is on the phone', sh1mmer
16:11:27 [wendy]
always treat techniques as test for guidelines. then at end, take run through guidelines to see what missing.
16:11:54 [sh1mmer]
zakim, who's on the phone?
16:11:54 [Zakim]
On the phone I see [Microsoft], Dave_MacDonald, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Tim_Boland, Lisa_Seeman, Tom_Croucher (muted)
16:11:55 [wendy]
if we can't create a technique for a guideline, then guideline fails.
16:12:02 [sh1mmer]
zakim, i am Tom_Croucher
16:12:02 [Zakim]
ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
16:12:07 [sh1mmer]
zakim, unmute me
16:12:07 [Zakim]
Tom_Croucher should no longer be muted
16:12:18 [wendy]
(is there a specific one in mind? e.g., defn of "clear text" - if can't define, how create a technique?)
16:12:34 [wendy]
what does QA test: WCAG or techniques?
16:12:56 [wendy]
QA Framework is to help us in creating techniques so that can use techniques and understand apply to their site.
16:14:55 [wendy]
QA primarily for normative documents (WCAG 2.0). testing our informative documents helps test WCAG 2.0. Separately, testing techniques (informative info) helps us test WCAG 2.0.
16:15:26 [wendy]
WCAG is a combination of technical things and usability stuff.
16:16:44 [wendy]
what do we need to document in response to 2.1?
16:16:54 [wendy]
fyi: this is a working draft and they haven't looked at in about 7 months.
16:17:06 [wendy]
thus: reflect discussion in comments to them (for inclusion in their next draft)
16:18:46 [wendy]
QA Test 2.2: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl2cp2
16:18:55 [wendy]
Metadata must be associated with test assertions, enabling test developers, the test-management system, the test-execution framework, and the results-reporting process to make useful distinctions between groups of tests.
16:19:32 [wendy]
we partially address this.
16:21:23 [wendy]
how is the metadata used? what is the need for it?
16:21:43 [wendy]
we have several pieces of this that are in markup (xml), and thus programmatically available. thus, satisfy this checkpoint?
16:21:47 [Zakim]
-Lisa_Seeman
16:21:57 [wendy]
QA Test 3.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp1
16:22:28 [wendy]
work so far has focused on html techniques, generalized to apply to WCAG 2.0?
16:22:32 [wendy]
(guidelines and principles)
16:22:54 [wendy]
problem for larger group, not the task force
16:24:02 [wendy]
test cases for gateway techniques?
16:25:25 [wendy]
QA Test checkpoint 3.2 and 3.3
16:25:26 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp2
16:25:32 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp3
16:26:01 [wendy]
allow that through structure of techs dtd
16:27:16 [wendy]
what type of filtering do they envision?
16:27:43 [wendy]
as simple as a spreadsheet: guidelines, checkpoints, test cases. select guideline 2.5 and it gives all of the tests you need to run.
16:28:16 [wendy]
not asking for us to create a tool, but a way to look through into in an organized way. however, no examples/techniques - we have opportunity to lead way in how this could be organized. give to them as techniques/example.
16:28:47 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
16:28:58 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (19%), Michael_Cooper (37%), Tom_Croucher (34%), Ben_Caldwell (13%)
16:29:09 [wendy]
QA Test 3.4: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp4
16:29:37 [wendy]
Test management system must support results.
16:29:40 [wendy]
not sure what that means
16:29:59 [wendy]
guideline 4 "Provide a test framework" goes back to our original question.
16:31:54 [wendy]
pick up with css and rdf for first mtg in january
16:33:20 [wendy]
as well as guideline 4 (where left off today)
16:33:23 [wendy]
and gateway techniques
16:33:54 [wendy]
next meeting: 7 January
16:34:02 [Zakim]
-Tim_Boland
16:34:05 [Zakim]
-Chris_Ridpath
16:34:19 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
16:34:20 [Zakim]
-[Microsoft]
16:34:20 [Zakim]
-Dave_MacDonald
16:34:22 [Zakim]
-Ben_Caldwell
16:37:58 [Zakim]
-Tom_Croucher
16:37:59 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
16:38:00 [Zakim]
Attendees were [Microsoft], Dave_MacDonald, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Tim_Boland, Lisa_Seeman, Tom_Croucher
16:38:25 [sh1mmer]
yeah and sorry for being late 2 weeks running
16:38:39 [sh1mmer]
i dont think i could get any busier at the moment unless you set me on fire ;)
16:39:54 [wendy]
:)
16:39:59 [wendy]
no worries
16:40:02 [wendy]
zakim, bye
16:40:02 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
16:40:06 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
I see 10 open action items:
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy look into wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.3 user agent support page info (microsoft demo? timed text work?). [1]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-12-24
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: Dave - create a test page and test if text equivalents are shown for client-side image maps for wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.5. [2]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-55
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: ben look at client-side proxy tools that help with checkpoint 1.5 (muffin) - tools that convert image maps to plain text. [3]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-20-34
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy update references to UAAG 1.0 checkpoints [4]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-51
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: wendy link to UAAG 1.0 test suite results for relevant UAAG 1.0 checkpoints. [5]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-34-24
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael test wcag 1.0 checkpoint 7.4 and 7.5 [6]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-39-22
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael summarize test results for placement of form controls and explicit association. [7]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-48-07
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael update UA info for 10.3 [8]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-51-06
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: dave test for checkpoint 10.5 [9]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-55-10
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael and wendy create matrix of checkpoints and user agents and who testing [10]
16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-57-20