IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-12-17
Timestamps are in UTC.
- 15:02:37 [RRSAgent]
- RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:03:16 [ben]
- ben has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:03:41 [Zakim]
- +??P18
- 15:03:52 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P18 is Ben_Caldwell
- 15:03:52 [Zakim]
- +Ben_Caldwell; got it
- 15:06:03 [wendy]
- agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0565.html
- 15:06:28 [wendy]
- user agent support page: http://www.w3.org/WAI/Resources/WAI-UA-Support
- 15:06:39 [Zakim]
- +Tim_Boland
- 15:07:15 [ChrisR]
- ChrisR has joined #wai-wcag
- 15:08:32 [wendy]
- 1.3: still need to record an audio description.
- 15:10:56 [wendy]
- how relate to timed text work?
- 15:11:27 [wendy]
- a microsoft sami demo from a while ago that demonstrated this concept?
- 15:11:33 [Zakim]
- +??P3
- 15:12:24 [wendy]
- action: wendy look into wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.3 user agent support page info (microsoft demo? timed text work?).
- 15:12:49 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P3 is Lisa_Seeman
- 15:12:49 [Zakim]
- +Lisa_Seeman; got it
- 15:12:55 [wendy]
- zakim, who's muted?
- 15:12:55 [Zakim]
- I see Lisa_Seeman muted
- 15:13:06 [wendy]
- wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.3: Until user agents can automatically read aloud the text equivalent of a visual track, provide an auditory description of the important information of the visual track of a multimedia presentation.
- 15:13:07 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:13:18 [wendy]
- 1.5 Until user agents render text equivalents for client-side image map links, provide redundant text links for each active region of a client-side image map.
- 15:14:36 [wendy]
- need a new test page.
- 15:17:55 [wendy]
- action: Dave - create a test page and test if text equivalents are shown for client-side image maps for wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.5.
- 15:18:22 [wendy]
- instead of asking author to do something, ask users to use tools.
- 15:19:47 [wendy]
- other options: have transcoding of some sort (a proxy) that will generate page for user.
- 15:20:34 [wendy]
- action: ben look at client-side proxy tools that help with checkpoint 1.5 (muffin) - tools that convert image maps to plain text.
- 15:20:53 [wendy]
- need to gather evidence that this is not longer an author requirement.
- 15:21:28 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:21:49 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.1 Until user agents allow users to control flickering, avoid causing the screen to flicker.
- 15:22:11 [wendy]
- Is disabling features an acceptable solution? turning off images, scriptping.
- 15:22:25 [wendy]
- IE to press escape and stop animated gifs, close to what we want.
- 15:24:53 [wendy]
- ideally have a tool that runs on person with PSE computer that disables flicker on the fly.
- 15:25:57 [wendy]
- tool for author is first priority (of trace's work)
- 15:26:09 [wendy]
- looks like we keep this one.
- 15:26:29 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:26:33 [wendy]
- similar for 7.2 and 7.3?
- 15:26:46 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.2 Until user agents allow users to control blinking, avoid causing content to blink (i.e., change presentation at a regular rate, such as turning on and off).
- 15:27:02 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.3 Until user agents allow users to freeze moving content, avoid movement in pages.
- 15:28:06 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.4 Until user agents provide the ability to stop the refresh, do not create periodically auto-refreshing pages.
- 15:28:43 [wendy]
- (oops, not 7.4 yet. discussing 7.2 and 7.3) - blinking and freezing
- 15:29:00 [wendy]
- even if can disable blink element, plug-ins could be blinking.
- 15:29:05 [wendy]
- for blink element, could have user style sheet.
- 15:29:28 [wendy]
- lump 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3?
- 15:30:57 [wendy]
- 7.1 seems diff. ok to lump 7.2 and 7.3.
- 15:32:31 [wendy]
- can't avoid movement in pages (popularity of animation sites)
- 15:32:40 [wendy]
- user issue? tools to do it?
- 15:33:26 [wendy]
- look at client-side tools for all of these.
- 15:33:51 [wendy]
- action: wendy update references to UAAG 1.0 checkpoints
- 15:34:24 [wendy]
- action: wendy link to UAAG 1.0 test suite results for relevant UAAG 1.0 checkpoints.
- 15:35:23 [wendy]
- can't deprecate 7.2 and 7.3 yet. yet, movement is common (other checkpoints apply)
- 15:35:43 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:35:56 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.4 Until user agents provide the ability to stop the refresh, do not create periodically auto-refreshing pages.
- 15:37:56 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 7.5 Until user agents provide the ability to stop auto-redirect, do not use markup to redirect pages automatically. Instead, configure the server to perform redirects.
- 15:38:11 [wendy]
- Opera does good job. Handles scripts as well?
- 15:39:22 [wendy]
- action: michael test wcag 1.0 checkpoint 7.4 and 7.5
- 15:39:52 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 checkpoint 10.1 Until user agents allow users to turn off spawned windows, do not cause pop-ups or other windows to appear and do not change the current window without informing the user.
- 15:40:01 [wendy]
- google toolbar blocks pop-ups.
- 15:40:41 [wendy]
- opera does as well.
- 15:40:51 [wendy]
- run into situations where have to change settings in order to use a site.
- 15:42:15 [wendy]
- is changing user agent settings on-the-fly acceptable? (i.e., enough reason to deprecate this checkpoint - that UA can be configured but has to be on-the-fly...user knowing enough to make changes)
- 15:42:43 [wendy]
- issue: linear progression and knowing that are in a new window
- 15:44:41 [wendy]
- state of world in 1999 was that pop-up ads were not common. this checkpoint not written to address them. state of world in 2003/2004... how these checkpoints apply today.
- 15:45:56 [wendy]
- good usability practice to inform user that link will open in a new window.
- 15:46:10 [wendy]
- authors still have ability to create confusing interfaces, probably can't deprecate this.
- 15:46:32 [wendy]
- however, problem has been lessened (since 1999) since screen readers didn't alert to new window being opened. now do. although some users miss this.
- 15:46:53 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:47:08 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 10.2 Until user agents support explicit associations between labels and form controls, for all form controls with implicitly associated labels, ensure that the label is properly positioned.
- 15:47:25 [wendy]
- likely to deprecate. have test results from UAAG 1.0 test suite. Michael has some test results as well.
- 15:48:07 [wendy]
- action: michael summarize test results for placement of form controls and explicit association.
- 15:48:09 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:48:37 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 10.3 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render side-by-side text correctly, provide a linear text alternative (on the current page or some other) for all tables that lay out text in parallel, word-wrapped columns.
- 15:50:08 [wendy]
- deprecate this. 5.3 remains: Do not use tables for layout unless the table makes sense when linearized. Otherwise, if the table does not make sense, provide an alternative equivalent (which may be a linearized version). [Priority 2]
- 15:50:46 [wendy]
- (i.e., authors don't need to provide text alternative, but table needs to linearize)
- 15:51:06 [wendy]
- action: michael update UA info for 10.3
- 15:51:22 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:51:31 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 10.4 Until user agents handle empty controls correctly, include default, place-holding characters in edit boxes and text areas.
- 15:51:37 [wendy]
- already have proposal to deprecate
- 15:51:38 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:51:55 [wendy]
- Checkpoint 10.5 Until user agents (including assistive technologies) render adjacent links distinctly, include non-link, printable characters (surrounded by spaces) between adjacent links.
- 15:51:59 [wendy]
- recently raised on the list.
- 15:52:46 [wendy]
- when this created, screen reader would mix up links that were not separated.
- 15:52:49 [wendy]
- no longer a problem.
- 15:53:26 [wendy]
- good test page: http://www.w3.org/1999/11/wai-test-links.html
- 15:55:10 [wendy]
- action: dave test for checkpoint 10.5
- 15:55:14 [wendy]
- testing safari?
- 15:55:41 [wendy]
- jenae has safari
- 15:57:20 [wendy]
- action: michael and wendy create matrix of checkpoints and user agents and who testing
- 15:57:40 [wendy]
- WCAG 1.0 Checkpoint 13.6 Group related links, identify the group (for user agents), and, until user agents do so, provide a way to bypass the group.
- 15:57:55 [wendy]
- UA don't provide way to bypass groups yet
- 15:58:01 [wendy]
- ===
- 15:58:23 [wendy]
- QA Test Guidelines
- 15:58:44 [wendy]
- Jenae's questions: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0568.html
- 16:00:42 [Zakim]
- +??P16
- 16:00:56 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P16 Tom_Croucher
- 16:00:56 [Zakim]
- I don't understand '??P16 Tom_Croucher', wendy
- 16:01:02 [wendy]
- zakim, ??P16 is Tom_Croucher
- 16:01:02 [Zakim]
- +Tom_Croucher; got it
- 16:01:44 [wendy]
- zakim, mute Tom
- 16:01:44 [Zakim]
- Tom_Croucher should now be muted
- 16:02:20 [wendy]
- [jenae takes notes during discussion of QA Framework: Test Guidelines]
- 16:04:13 [wendy]
- QA Process Document: define test materials
- 16:04:29 [wendy]
- spelling that out, that will be our testing approach (ala checkpoint 1.3 of QA Test Guidelines)
- 16:04:50 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl1cp3
- 16:05:14 [wendy]
- are we testing guidelines or techniques?
- 16:05:23 [wendy]
- need to test techniques as well, but a distinct process from testing guidelines.
- 16:07:55 [wendy]
- 2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl2cp1
- 16:08:28 [wendy]
- assertions: different from our success criteria?
- 16:10:19 [wendy]
- apply to html checklist items? apply to html techniques (for example) rather than success criteria?
- 16:10:50 [wendy]
- using techniques to test the guidelines. in which case, testable assertions in html technques (for example) could satisfy this QA checkpoint.
- 16:11:04 [wendy]
- if use techniques to test guidelines, could miss some aspect of guidelines.
- 16:11:05 [sh1mmer]
- sh1mmer has joined #wai-wcag
- 16:11:12 [wendy]
- are guidelines 100% translatable into techniques?
- 16:11:26 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, who is on the phone
- 16:11:26 [Zakim]
- I don't understand 'who is on the phone', sh1mmer
- 16:11:27 [wendy]
- always treat techniques as test for guidelines. then at end, take run through guidelines to see what missing.
- 16:11:54 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, who's on the phone?
- 16:11:54 [Zakim]
- On the phone I see [Microsoft], Dave_MacDonald, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Tim_Boland, Lisa_Seeman, Tom_Croucher (muted)
- 16:11:55 [wendy]
- if we can't create a technique for a guideline, then guideline fails.
- 16:12:02 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, i am Tom_Croucher
- 16:12:02 [Zakim]
- ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom_Croucher
- 16:12:07 [sh1mmer]
- zakim, unmute me
- 16:12:07 [Zakim]
- Tom_Croucher should no longer be muted
- 16:12:18 [wendy]
- (is there a specific one in mind? e.g., defn of "clear text" - if can't define, how create a technique?)
- 16:12:34 [wendy]
- what does QA test: WCAG or techniques?
- 16:12:56 [wendy]
- QA Framework is to help us in creating techniques so that can use techniques and understand apply to their site.
- 16:14:55 [wendy]
- QA primarily for normative documents (WCAG 2.0). testing our informative documents helps test WCAG 2.0. Separately, testing techniques (informative info) helps us test WCAG 2.0.
- 16:15:26 [wendy]
- WCAG is a combination of technical things and usability stuff.
- 16:16:44 [wendy]
- what do we need to document in response to 2.1?
- 16:16:54 [wendy]
- fyi: this is a working draft and they haven't looked at in about 7 months.
- 16:17:06 [wendy]
- thus: reflect discussion in comments to them (for inclusion in their next draft)
- 16:18:46 [wendy]
- QA Test 2.2: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl2cp2
- 16:18:55 [wendy]
- Metadata must be associated with test assertions, enabling test developers, the test-management system, the test-execution framework, and the results-reporting process to make useful distinctions between groups of tests.
- 16:19:32 [wendy]
- we partially address this.
- 16:21:23 [wendy]
- how is the metadata used? what is the need for it?
- 16:21:43 [wendy]
- we have several pieces of this that are in markup (xml), and thus programmatically available. thus, satisfy this checkpoint?
- 16:21:47 [Zakim]
- -Lisa_Seeman
- 16:21:57 [wendy]
- QA Test 3.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp1
- 16:22:28 [wendy]
- work so far has focused on html techniques, generalized to apply to WCAG 2.0?
- 16:22:32 [wendy]
- (guidelines and principles)
- 16:22:54 [wendy]
- problem for larger group, not the task force
- 16:24:02 [wendy]
- test cases for gateway techniques?
- 16:25:25 [wendy]
- QA Test checkpoint 3.2 and 3.3
- 16:25:26 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp2
- 16:25:32 [wendy]
- http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp3
- 16:26:01 [wendy]
- allow that through structure of techs dtd
- 16:27:16 [wendy]
- what type of filtering do they envision?
- 16:27:43 [wendy]
- as simple as a spreadsheet: guidelines, checkpoints, test cases. select guideline 2.5 and it gives all of the tests you need to run.
- 16:28:16 [wendy]
- not asking for us to create a tool, but a way to look through into in an organized way. however, no examples/techniques - we have opportunity to lead way in how this could be organized. give to them as techniques/example.
- 16:28:47 [wendy]
- zakim, who's making noise?
- 16:28:58 [Zakim]
- wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft] (19%), Michael_Cooper (37%), Tom_Croucher (34%), Ben_Caldwell (13%)
- 16:29:09 [wendy]
- QA Test 3.4: http://www.w3.org/TR/2003/WD-qaframe-test-20030516/#gl3cp4
- 16:29:37 [wendy]
- Test management system must support results.
- 16:29:40 [wendy]
- not sure what that means
- 16:29:59 [wendy]
- guideline 4 "Provide a test framework" goes back to our original question.
- 16:31:54 [wendy]
- pick up with css and rdf for first mtg in january
- 16:33:20 [wendy]
- as well as guideline 4 (where left off today)
- 16:33:23 [wendy]
- and gateway techniques
- 16:33:54 [wendy]
- next meeting: 7 January
- 16:34:02 [Zakim]
- -Tim_Boland
- 16:34:05 [Zakim]
- -Chris_Ridpath
- 16:34:19 [Zakim]
- -Michael_Cooper
- 16:34:20 [Zakim]
- -[Microsoft]
- 16:34:20 [Zakim]
- -Dave_MacDonald
- 16:34:22 [Zakim]
- -Ben_Caldwell
- 16:37:58 [Zakim]
- -Tom_Croucher
- 16:37:59 [Zakim]
- WAI_WCAG(techniques)10:00AM has ended
- 16:38:00 [Zakim]
- Attendees were [Microsoft], Dave_MacDonald, Chris_Ridpath, Wendy, Michael_Cooper, Ben_Caldwell, Tim_Boland, Lisa_Seeman, Tom_Croucher
- 16:38:25 [sh1mmer]
- yeah and sorry for being late 2 weeks running
- 16:38:39 [sh1mmer]
- i dont think i could get any busier at the moment unless you set me on fire ;)
- 16:39:54 [wendy]
- :)
- 16:39:59 [wendy]
- no worries
- 16:40:02 [wendy]
- zakim, bye
- 16:40:02 [Zakim]
- Zakim has left #wai-wcag
- 16:40:06 [wendy]
- RRSAgent, bye
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- I see 10 open action items:
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy look into wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.3 user agent support page info (microsoft demo? timed text work?). [1]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-12-24
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: Dave - create a test page and test if text equivalents are shown for client-side image maps for wcag 1.0 checkpoint 1.5. [2]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-17-55
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: ben look at client-side proxy tools that help with checkpoint 1.5 (muffin) - tools that convert image maps to plain text. [3]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-20-34
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy update references to UAAG 1.0 checkpoints [4]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-33-51
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: wendy link to UAAG 1.0 test suite results for relevant UAAG 1.0 checkpoints. [5]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-34-24
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael test wcag 1.0 checkpoint 7.4 and 7.5 [6]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-39-22
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael summarize test results for placement of form controls and explicit association. [7]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-48-07
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael update UA info for 10.3 [8]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-51-06
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: dave test for checkpoint 10.5 [9]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-55-10
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- ACTION: michael and wendy create matrix of checkpoints and user agents and who testing [10]
- 16:40:06 [RRSAgent]
- recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/12/17-wai-wcag-irc#T15-57-20