IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-12-11

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:03:23 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
21:03:35 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:03:35 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Roberto_Scano (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ian, Yvette_Hoitink, JasonWhite, Kerstin_Goldsmith (muted), John_Slatin, Wendy,
21:03:38 [Zakim]
... Doyle_Burnett, Avi_Arditti, Ben_Caldwell, Mark_Friedman
21:04:00 [rscano]
Regrets: Silvia Dini
21:04:03 [Zakim]
21:04:20 [wendy]
zakim, ??P24 is Bengt_Farre
21:04:20 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
21:04:25 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:04:25 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:04:35 [bengt]
zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
21:04:36 [Zakim]
ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
21:04:42 [bengt]
zakim, mute mne
21:04:42 [Zakim]
sorry, bengt, I do not see a party named 'mne'
21:04:44 [bengt]
zakim, mute me
21:04:45 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
21:04:52 [wendy]
21:05:10 [wendy]
plain language rewrites
21:06:14 [Zakim]
21:07:04 [wendy]
21:07:18 [wendy]
W3C process and errata
21:07:27 [wendy]
Ian presents summary
21:07:30 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has joined #wai-wcag
21:07:38 [rellero]
Hi rob
21:07:42 [rcastaldo]
Hi everybody
21:07:45 [wendy]
of changes to process document related to w3c process doc
21:07:49 [rcastaldo]
Hi Robs
21:07:50 [Zakim]
21:07:57 [Yvette]
Hi Rob#3
21:07:59 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:08:09 [rcastaldo]
Hi Yvette
21:08:10 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Ian (100%)
21:08:23 [Zakim]
21:08:37 [rcastaldo]
It's me
21:08:37 [wendy]
always encouraged to keep errata up-to-date and whether or not if they are normative.
21:08:47 [wendy]
zakim, ??P35 is Roberto_Castaldo
21:08:47 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Castaldo; got it
21:08:48 [Ian]
21:08:54 [wendy]
zakim, mute Roberto_Castaldo
21:08:54 [Zakim]
Roberto_Castaldo should now be muted
21:09:05 [Ian]
7.6.2 Classes of Changes to a Recommendation
21:09:19 [wendy]
zakim, who's muted?
21:09:19 [Zakim]
I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero, Yvette_Hoitink, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Bengt_Farre, Roberto_Castaldo muted
21:09:35 [wendy]
4 types of errata:
21:09:48 [Ian]
3. Corrections that MAY affect conformance, but add no new features
21:09:58 [Zakim]
21:10:34 [wendy]
likely not to add, but to subtract (i.e., until user agents clauses being met)
21:10:40 [Zakim]
21:10:47 [wendy]
paths to take to incorporate normatively: easiest is to edit the document and publish a revision.
21:11:05 [wendy]
get review of the revision (1 month review) and if agreement, then publish as WCAG 1.0 2nd edition.
21:11:19 [wendy]
people can continue to refer to older version.
21:11:38 [wendy]
called "proposed edited recommendation" - get review. if support, becomes new version.
21:12:00 [wendy]
possible to add something to the old version that says, "new version available"?
21:12:13 [Zakim]
21:12:28 [wendy]
a w3c policy to not modify published documents (archival state so important...) won't modify in place to say "new version available"
21:12:41 [wendy]
more recent documents, try to highlight fact that new ones might be available.
21:12:44 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:12:55 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg_Vanderheiden (38%), Ian (100%), JasonWhite (4%)
21:13:53 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:13:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Roberto_Scano (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ian, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), JasonWhite, Kerstin_Goldsmith (muted), John_Slatin, Wendy,
21:13:56 [Zakim]
... Doyle_Burnett, Avi_Arditti, Ben_Caldwell, Mark_Friedman, Bengt_Farre (muted), Dave_MacDonald, [IBM], Roberto_Castaldo (muted), David_D, ??P38, Gregg_Vanderheiden
21:14:00 [wendy]
zakim, ??P38 is Mat
21:14:00 [Zakim]
+Mat; got it
21:14:03 [Ian]
zakim, mute Mat
21:14:03 [Zakim]
Mat should now be muted
21:14:03 [wendy]
zakim, mute Mat
21:14:04 [Zakim]
Mat was already muted, wendy
21:14:07 [doyle]
still hear noise
21:14:07 [wendy]
zakim, Mute Gregg
21:14:07 [Zakim]
Gregg_Vanderheiden should now be muted
21:14:18 [wendy]
zakim, who's muted?
21:14:18 [Zakim]
I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero, Yvette_Hoitink, Kerstin_Goldsmith, Bengt_Farre, Roberto_Castaldo, Mat, Gregg_Vanderheiden muted
21:14:50 [wendy]
several WGs said, "we want to make our errata page contain normative changes w/out republishing our doc.
21:14:55 [wendy]
pros: less effort and time
21:15:10 [wendy]
cons: if lots of corrctions, people might not find them or might not integrate them into text in the same way
21:15:11 [Zakim]
21:15:28 [Ian]
7.6.4 Call for Review of Proposed Corrections
21:15:33 [wendy]
AB created compromise process in section 7.6.4 - WG calls for review of proposed corrections
21:15:44 [wendy]
if no objections after 4 weeks, they become normative.
21:15:48 [Zakim]
21:15:52 [wendy]
useful for the case of labeling as normative
21:16:18 [Zakim]
21:16:19 [wendy]
however, at some point have to integrate into spec.
21:16:39 [wendy]
after 1 month review have 6 months to republish document
21:16:49 [wendy]
similar to proposed edited rec, but delay
21:16:50 [Zakim]
21:17:29 [wendy]
zakim, unmute Gregg
21:17:29 [Zakim]
Gregg_Vanderheiden should no longer be muted
21:17:57 [wendy]
ack Gregg
21:18:15 [wendy]
we can change WCAG 1.0, send it out for 1 month review, and it is normative?
21:18:22 [wendy]
yes. and be called WCAG 1.0 second revision.
21:18:43 [wendy]
would not replace the old version but become the new latest version and say "this doc supercedes the 1999 draft..."
21:18:47 [wendy]
only edit to old one?
21:18:54 [wendy]
it is already there.
21:18:56 [Zakim]
21:19:00 [wendy]
"current draft" link
21:19:08 [wendy]
latest version draft
21:19:51 [wendy]
zakim, mute Kerstin
21:19:51 [Zakim]
Kerstin_Goldsmith was already muted, wendy
21:19:54 [wendy]
zakim, mute Gregg
21:19:54 [Zakim]
Gregg_Vanderheiden should now be muted
21:20:02 [wendy]
zakim, who's muted?
21:20:02 [Zakim]
I see Roberto_Scano, Roberto_Ellero, Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt_Farre, Roberto_Castaldo, Mat, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Kerstin_Goldsmith muted
21:20:07 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:20:19 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 11 seconds I heard sound from the following: JasonWhite (69%), ??P39 (8%)
21:20:30 [wendy]
zakim, mute ??P39
21:20:30 [Zakim]
??P39 should now be muted
21:20:35 [wendy]
who's P39?
21:20:53 [Yvette]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:20:53 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Roberto_Scano (muted), Roberto_Ellero (muted), Ian, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), JasonWhite, John_Slatin, Wendy, Doyle_Burnett, Avi_Arditti,
21:20:54 [wendy]
if nothing effects conformance, can republish and no review required.
21:20:56 [rscano]
nobody here in irc i think...
21:20:56 [Zakim]
... Ben_Caldwell, Mark_Friedman, Bengt_Farre (muted), Dave_MacDonald, [IBM], Roberto_Castaldo (muted), David_D, Mat (muted), Gregg_Vanderheiden (muted), ??P39 (muted),
21:20:58 [Zakim]
... Kerstin_Goldsmith (muted)
21:21:18 [wendy]
the review is required when there are dependencies and stakeholders who will be effected by changes.
21:21:24 [wendy]
ack Gregg
21:21:49 [wendy]
theoretically, we could publish WCAG 2.0 as WCAG 1.0 revision 2 with 1 month review?
21:22:00 [wendy]
doubtful that would be considered fixing WCAG 1.0.
21:22:06 [ben]
21:22:16 [wendy]
i.e., WCAG 2.0 contains new features
21:22:17 [wendy]
ack Ben
21:22:21 [wendy]
mute Gregg
21:22:26 [wendy]
zakim, mute gregg
21:22:26 [Zakim]
Gregg_Vanderheiden was already muted, wendy
21:22:37 [wendy]
until user agents would be deletions. is that acceptable?
21:22:50 [wendy]
deprecations rather than deletions?
21:23:10 [wendy]
they are not new features. process is largely geared towards protocol and format specs.
21:23:33 [wendy]
seem to be a change that does effect conformance.
21:23:45 [wendy]
could bring non-conforming documents conformant or conforming docs non-conformant.
21:24:45 [Ian]
21:25:45 [Yvette]
Wendy: "Different types of errata: technical problems in the PDF version, typos, 'until user agents' clauses that have been met, clarifications"
21:25:47 [wendy]
ack Ian
21:25:53 [wendy]
thx yvette!
21:25:57 [Yvette]
no problem
21:26:30 [wendy]
in uaag had links to pdf and other version. at time of rec, got rid of them b/c took time to produce. offer that in revision, don't link to them.
21:26:38 [wendy]
create and link to them from someplace else.
21:26:50 [wendy]
e.g., uaag faq, "is there a pdf version" "yes, here"
21:27:12 [wendy]
q+ to say, "also techniques docs. need to decide"
21:27:28 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:27:28 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say, "also techniques docs. need to decide"
21:28:15 [wendy]
ack Loretta
21:28:31 [wendy]
worried that already sliding down slope of putting a lot of work in WCAG 1.0, would like WCAG 2.0 to finish.
21:30:53 [wendy]
revised version help with harmonization?
21:31:13 [wendy]
techniques can help clarify some of the issues with WCAG 1.0.
21:31:16 [rscano]
i think so
21:31:42 [wendy]
take a conservative approach, fix significant typos and errors, until user agent clauses if necessary.
21:32:03 [wendy]
(if we are to take this path, should be very limited in scope, type, and tightly managed so as not to jeopardize work on WCAG 2.0)
21:32:06 [wendy]
ack Gregg
21:32:21 [Yvette]
ack Gregg_VanderHeiden
21:32:21 [wendy]
zakim, unmute Gregg
21:32:22 [Zakim]
Gregg_Vanderheiden was not muted, wendy
21:32:33 [rellero]
I think so too, even referring to ATAG
21:32:44 [Zakim]
21:33:40 [wendy]
3 votes for: quick fix - typos and until user agents
21:33:50 [Yvette]
+ my vote
21:33:57 [bengt]
me too
21:34:06 [doyle]
yes from me, too
21:34:22 [rscano]
me too
21:34:31 [rellero]
+ my vote
21:35:21 [wendy]
anything in html techniques for wcag 2.0 that would affect conformance to wcag 1.0?
21:36:56 [Yvette]
q+ to say "One exception might be placeholder text"
21:37:32 [wendy]
write clearly and simply - perhasp? not in html techniques but in techniques gateway
21:37:37 [wendy]
ack kerstin
21:38:08 [wendy]
techniques will change conformance. not so much does it effect, but could become conformant or not based on techniques.
21:38:31 [wendy]
agree that should look into user agent clause, and typos and get back to assigning guidelines to people.
21:38:35 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:38:36 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "One exception might be placeholder text"
21:38:44 [wendy]
zakim, mute Kerstin
21:38:44 [Zakim]
Kerstin_Goldsmith was already muted, wendy
21:39:04 [wendy]
html tech for wcag 2.0 that would effect conformance for 1.0. place-holders in forms.
21:39:36 [wendy]
Ian leaves
21:39:38 [Zakim]
21:39:43 [rscano]
there will be a sub-group? like techniques group?
21:39:58 [wendy]
21:40:02 [wendy]
assigning guidelines
21:40:27 [wendy]
john slatin: 3.3
21:40:54 [wendy]
ack Jason
21:43:47 [wendy]
andi: 2.2
21:43:52 [wendy]
ack Kerstin
21:44:04 [wendy]
kerstin: no preference (can assign a couple)
21:44:15 [wendy]
no meetings on 25 december and 1 january
21:44:30 [rscano]
me like Kerstin
21:44:31 [wendy]
andi: also 3.1
21:44:52 [wendy]
dave macdonald: help john with 3.3
21:45:04 [wendy]
goal: to get more discussion on list, to get through comments, and to be more prepared for telecons
21:45:12 [wendy]
so that we can get a new public draft in february
21:45:19 [doyle]
I do 1.6 but do not want to bump others also working on 1.6
21:45:31 [wendy]
i.e., talk about proposals in january to prep for draft in february
21:45:33 [wendy]
yvette: 4.1
21:46:06 [wendy]
doyle: 1.6 (summary issues for subgroup)
21:46:24 [wendy]
searching for 3.3? does that include issues raised about related items under older numbering schemes?
21:47:20 [wendy]
ben gives summary about issues in bugzilla:
21:47:34 [Yvette]
21:47:39 [wendy]
primarily issues from public comments.
21:47:41 [wendy]
zakim, mute kerstin
21:47:41 [Zakim]
Kerstin_Goldsmith was already muted, wendy
21:47:49 [wendy]
who's trying to raise hand?
21:48:12 [wendy]
issues are assigned to a checkpoint/guideline by a unique id not by numbering (numbers have changed)
21:48:13 [bengt]
I can work on 3.3 too wendy
21:48:31 [rellero]
I can work on 3.4
21:48:38 [wendy]
ben is going to publish documentation about using bugzilla
21:48:42 [wendy]
mat 1.6 and 1.7
21:49:10 [wendy]
mat: could do more. will have a look.
21:49:12 [doyle]
hand up
21:49:38 [wendy]
Roberto Ellero: 3.4
21:49:43 [wendy]
ack Loretta
21:49:43 [rscano]
me too to 3.4
21:49:51 [wendy]
loretta: 4.3
21:49:55 [wendy]
ack doyle
21:50:03 [wendy]
doyle willing to help with leftovers
21:50:15 [wendy]
Mat: 1.1 10 bugs
21:50:40 [wendy]
ack ??P39
21:50:40 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute ??P39
21:50:42 [Zakim]
??P39 was not muted, Yvette
21:50:52 [wendy]
zakim, ??P39 is Mike_Barta
21:50:52 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta; got it
21:51:22 [wendy]
Mike already has 1.1 aciton item from tokyo mtg. will take 1.1.
21:51:44 [Zakim]
21:51:44 [wendy]
zakim, mute Mike
21:51:45 [Zakim]
Mike_Barta was already muted, wendy
21:53:01 [wendy]
what do we want to know about?
21:53:30 [wendy]
synthesis of the issues
21:53:36 [wendy]
summarize how many issues there have been?
21:53:52 [wendy]
summary of categories of comments?
21:54:41 [wendy]
range of opinion (differing comments)
21:55:12 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Using bugzilla is enough? Not necessary to sift through mail archives?"
21:56:11 [wendy]
ack yvette
21:56:11 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "Using bugzilla is enough? Not necessary to sift through mail archives?"
21:57:22 [wendy]
not all issues discussed on the list are in bugzilla. also, public comments were about june draft.
21:57:34 [wendy]
many bugzilla comments point to a thread in the mail archives, should follow that thread for more comments.
21:57:55 [wendy]
therefore, good to go through bugzilla first since reviewers picked up most of issues, but to be thorough, helpful to go through archives.
21:58:21 [wendy]
ack kerstin
21:59:10 [wendy]
zakim, mute kerstin
21:59:10 [Zakim]
Kerstin_Goldsmith should now be muted
21:59:19 [Zakim]
21:59:34 [wendy]
in bugzilla: if a bug has been resolved, show up as resolved in bugzilla?
22:00:01 [wendy]
there are different states in bugzilla.
22:01:00 [bengt]
22:02:46 [rscano]
ok :)
22:02:48 [doyle]
sign me up too
22:03:16 [wendy]
anyone who did not accept one but has ideas, please submit them and the person who took it will incorporate it.
22:05:41 [wendy]
adopting plain language by next week: was doing to get people discussing (spur to action). instead, include plain language as an issue to review for a guideline.
22:06:19 [wendy]
plain language are issues in bugzilla, so when reviewing your guideline plain language will become part of the issues.
22:06:32 [wendy]
template for moving forward:
22:06:50 [wendy]
outstanding issues, proposed solutions, proposed solution
22:06:55 [wendy]
feel free to propose more than one solution.
22:07:09 [wendy]
(each of those headings a summary of the issues)
22:07:18 [wendy]
(contain a summary of the issues)
22:07:43 [wendy]
also think about dependencies between guidelines
22:07:56 [Zakim]
22:07:59 [wendy]
assumptions: what assumption do you make when thinking about this guideline?
22:08:08 [wendy]
rationale: why this guideline is important.
22:12:19 [Zakim]
22:12:28 [wendy]
Kerstin: 1.4 and 1.5
22:12:49 [wendy]
zakim, ??P0 is Mike_Barta
22:12:49 [Zakim]
+Mike_Barta; got it
22:13:19 [wendy]
agenda: 1.6/1.7, 1.4, 1.5, wcag 1.0 errata
22:13:26 [rscano]
next week is Jan 8 2004?
22:14:15 [wendy]
gregg: 2.1, 2.3, 2.4
22:15:08 [wendy]
ack Dave
22:15:37 [wendy]
CAPTCHA related to 1.1
22:15:42 [wendy]
are we going to deal with that?
22:16:21 [wendy]
Inaccessibility of Visually-Oriented Anti-Robot Tests"
22:16:32 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:16:32 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:16:39 [wendy]
principle in guidelines, solutions in techniques
22:17:40 [Yvette]
q+ to say "alternative: contact by e-mail?"
22:18:08 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:18:08 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:18:31 [wendy]
ack Yvette
22:18:31 [Zakim]
Yvette, you wanted to say "alternative: contact by e-mail?"
22:19:36 [Zakim]
22:21:15 [Zakim]
22:22:55 [wendy]
yes, an issue for us to address. likely 1.1, but not sure what to recommend.
22:23:58 [bengt]
22:23:59 [Zakim]
22:24:01 [Zakim]
22:24:01 [bengt]
bengt has left #wai-wcag
22:24:02 [Zakim]
22:24:02 [rellero]
22:24:03 [Zakim]
22:24:03 [Zakim]
22:24:04 [Zakim]
22:24:04 [Zakim]
22:24:05 [Zakim]
22:24:05 [rcastaldo]
Bye everybody
22:24:06 [Zakim]
22:24:08 [Zakim]
22:24:08 [Yvette]
bye all
22:24:10 [Zakim]
22:24:12 [Zakim]
22:24:12 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has left #wai-wcag
22:24:12 [rscano]
bye all
22:24:14 [Zakim]
22:24:15 [doyle]
next time!!!
22:24:16 [Zakim]
22:24:20 [Zakim]
22:24:21 [rscano]
see u next year!
22:24:33 [rscano]
merry christmas and happy new year :)
22:24:42 [Zakim]
22:24:47 [Zakim]
22:24:48 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()4:00PM has ended
22:24:49 [Zakim]
Attendees were Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Ian, Roberto_Scano, Yvette_Hoitink, JasonWhite, Roberto_Ellero, Kerstin_Goldsmith, John_Slatin, Wendy, Doyle_Burnett, Avi_Arditti,
22:24:51 [Zakim]
... Ben_Caldwell, Mark_Friedman, Bengt_Farre, Dave_MacDonald, [IBM], Roberto_Castaldo, David_D, Gregg_Vanderheiden, Mat, Mike_Barta
22:24:56 [wendy]
roberto: we'll meet next week: 18 december. will you be on vacation?
22:25:03 [rscano]
ah no :)
22:25:13 [rscano]
opps... :)
22:25:52 [rscano]
so with two weeks of holiday (no WCAG) i will do some translations :)
22:25:56 [wendy]
22:26:06 [rscano]
have u received the files for WCAGConformance logos?
22:26:11 [Yvette]
I will take off between Christmas and New Year's, first time I had more than a day off since February :-)
22:26:19 [wendy]
yes. the first step is to make the default served the english version.
22:26:19 [Yvette]
(including weekends)
22:26:35 [rscano]
good :)
22:26:39 [wendy]
i still need to talk with ivan and others about how to handle publishing the italian translations. i haven't done that before.
22:26:47 [rscano]
also the default page is HTML 2.0 now :)
22:26:50 [wendy]
and need to check if there is any process.
22:26:55 [rscano]
22:27:03 [wendy]
zakim, bye
22:27:03 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:28:27 [rscano]
good night! see on 18th ;-)
22:28:35 [Yvette]
By Roberto!
22:28:49 [Yvette]
Bye all
22:28:59 [rscano]
rscano has left #wai-wcag
22:41:59 [ben]
ben has left #wai-wcag
23:15:46 [Ian]
Ian has left #wai-wcag
23:28:18 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
23:28:18 [RRSAgent]
I see no action items