IRC log of wai-wcag on 2003-10-30

Timestamps are in UTC.

21:00:35 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
21:00:46 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
21:01:01 [Zakim]
+Dave_MacDonald
21:01:02 [Zakim]
+[MIT342]
21:01:22 [rellero]
I've problems with dialpad
21:02:00 [rscano]
zakim, who is on the phone?
21:02:00 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Yvette_Hoitink, John_Slatin, JasonWhite, [MIT342], Dave_MacDonald
21:02:46 [Zakim]
+??P14
21:02:48 [Zakim]
+Wendy
21:02:57 [Zakim]
+Avi_Arditti
21:03:25 [Zakim]
+??P16
21:03:41 [Zakim]
+??P15
21:03:44 [wendy]
zakim, ??P16 is Bengt
21:03:44 [Zakim]
+Bengt; got it
21:03:55 [wendy]
zakim, mute Bengt
21:03:55 [Zakim]
Bengt should now be muted
21:03:58 [rscano]
zakim, who is here?
21:03:58 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Yvette_Hoitink, John_Slatin, JasonWhite, [MIT342], Dave_MacDonald, ??P14, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Bengt (muted), ??P15
21:04:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, Yvette, wendy, rellero, Zakim, bengt, rscano
21:04:04 [bcaldwell]
bcaldwell has joined #wai-wcag
21:04:20 [wendy]
zakim, ??P15 may be Tom
21:04:20 [Zakim]
+Tom?; got it
21:04:27 [sh1mmer]
sh1mmer has joined #wai-wcag
21:04:28 [bengt]
14?
21:04:33 [sh1mmer]
hi :)
21:04:42 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:04:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano, Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Yvette_Hoitink, John_Slatin, JasonWhite, [MIT342], Dave_MacDonald, ??P14, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Bengt (muted), Tom?
21:04:44 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
21:04:45 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
21:04:54 [GVAN]
GVAN has joined #wai-wcag
21:05:12 [wendy]
zakim, ??P14 is Gregg-and-Ben
21:05:12 [Zakim]
+Gregg-and-Ben; got it
21:05:17 [bengt]
still echo ?
21:05:23 [bengt]
yes
21:05:23 [Yvette]
I am
21:05:39 [wendy]
ack Gregg
21:05:42 [Yvette]
now it's ok
21:06:07 [Yvette]
I only hear echos when Wendy talks
21:06:11 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, I am Tom
21:06:11 [Zakim]
ok, sh1mmer, I now associate you with Tom?
21:06:24 [Zakim]
+??P17
21:06:28 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, Tom? is Tom
21:06:28 [Zakim]
+Tom; got it
21:06:35 [wendy]
zakim, ??P17 is Kerstin
21:06:35 [Zakim]
+Kerstin; got it
21:07:24 [rscano]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-20031027.html
21:07:47 [Zakim]
+[IBM]
21:07:48 [bengt]
what is the mute code ?
21:07:55 [wendy]
zakim, mute bengt
21:07:55 [Zakim]
Bengt was already muted, wendy
21:08:02 [m3mSEA]
m3mSEA has joined #wai-wcag
21:08:09 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:08:17 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, who's muted?
21:08:17 [Zakim]
I see Yvette_Hoitink, Bengt, Tom muted
21:08:21 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: JasonWhite (35%)
21:08:26 [wendy]
zakim, mute JasonWhite
21:08:26 [Zakim]
JasonWhite should now be muted
21:08:41 [sh1mmer]
zakim roberto_scano
21:08:42 [bengt]
echo gone
21:08:54 [rscano]
?
21:09:06 [sh1mmer]
rscano i was going to mute you :P
21:09:12 [rscano]
:P
21:09:18 [Yvette]
tsk tsk
21:09:26 [sh1mmer]
the voip is usually the noisy lines
21:09:48 [wendy]
or international lines.
21:11:12 [wendy]
david's text: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2003OctDec/0162.html
21:11:19 [rcastaldo]
rcastaldo has joined #wai-wcag
21:11:28 [rcastaldo]
Hi everybody
21:11:44 [rscano]
hi bob
21:11:56 [Zakim]
+??P20
21:12:27 [rscano]
zakim, ??P20 is Roberto_Castaldo
21:12:27 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Castaldo; got it
21:12:31 [Yvette]
Hi Roberto
21:12:39 [rscano]
hi :P
21:12:46 [rcastaldo]
Hi Yvette
21:12:58 [wendy]
"how to read doc" then "there are 3 levels" some people might read that as "this doc as both tech-specific and other text."
21:13:00 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Castaldo
21:13:22 [rellero]
rellero has joined #wai-wcag
21:13:31 [wendy]
we used to talk about "3 layers" of documents and now have 3 levels of success criteria.
21:13:33 [Zakim]
+??P20
21:13:40 [Zakim]
-??P20
21:14:13 [Zakim]
+??P20
21:14:30 [Zakim]
-??P20
21:14:34 [Zakim]
+??P21
21:14:36 [Zakim]
-??P21
21:14:46 [wendy]
roberto castaldo having trouble joining?
21:14:46 [sh1mmer]
q+
21:14:56 [rellero]
I too
21:15:00 [rcastaldo]
Yes
21:15:08 [rcastaldo]
I'll try again
21:15:25 [rellero]
The telephone call is closed soon
21:15:27 [Zakim]
+??P20
21:15:40 [wendy]
ack kerstin
21:15:44 [Zakim]
-??P20
21:15:56 [wendy]
where are we in the schedule?
21:16:27 [rcastaldo]
It falled again
21:16:31 [wendy]
wcag 2.0 will not become a w3c recommendation in 2003.
21:17:01 [wendy]
we're no longer expanding or exploring, we are trying to smooth the rought edges.
21:17:08 [rellero]
Impossible to phone, as soon as I hear the sound of tc the telephone call is closed, sorry
21:17:26 [rcastaldo]
It's exactly the same for me
21:18:35 [Zakim]
+??P20
21:18:52 [Zakim]
-??P20
21:19:53 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:19:59 [sh1mmer]
q-
21:20:35 [Zakim]
+Michael_Cooper
21:21:58 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
21:22:58 [wendy]
working backwards: address PR comments (4 weeks min) + PR review 4 weeks + CR minimum of 0 weeks (if document imp experience before enter) + address last call comments (4 weeks min) + last call review 3 weeks minimum + address WD comments (4 weeks min) + WD before last call (4-6 weeks) this is rough and incomplete
21:22:59 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/2003/06/Process-20030618/tr.html#rec-advance
21:23:16 [wendy]
q?
21:23:18 [wendy]
ack john
21:23:23 [wendy]
zakim, who's on the phone?
21:23:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Roberto_Scano (muted), Loretta_Guarino_Reid, Yvette_Hoitink (muted), John_Slatin, JasonWhite, [MIT342], Dave_MacDonald, Gregg-and-Ben, Wendy, Avi_Arditti, Bengt
21:23:26 [Zakim]
... (muted), Tom (muted), Kerstin, [IBM], Katie_Haritos-Shea, Michael_Cooper
21:25:11 [sh1mmer]
q+
21:25:43 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
21:25:46 [wendy]
q+ to say "don't think things will be solid by the end of the year"
21:26:58 [silvia]
silvia has joined #wai-wcag
21:27:54 [rscano]
hi silvia
21:28:10 [silvia]
hi
21:28:16 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:28:29 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: [MIT342] (47%), Tom (47%), JasonWhite (8%)
21:28:47 [wendy]
using wcag itself as an example.
21:29:14 [Yvette]
Fog index: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2001AprJun/0313.html
21:29:14 [wendy]
q?
21:29:18 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:29:18 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say "don't think things will be solid by the end of the year"
21:30:17 [m3mSEA]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:30:22 [rscano]
echoooo :)
21:30:27 [Zakim]
m3mSEA, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [MIT342] (27%), Tom (15%), Michael_Cooper (5%), JasonWhite (4%), Wendy (19%)
21:30:43 [sh1mmer]
oops
21:30:57 [rscano]
zakim, mute Tom
21:30:57 [Zakim]
Tom was already muted, rscano
21:31:09 [sh1mmer]
lol
21:31:17 [rscano]
lol
21:31:19 [sh1mmer]
rscano touche
21:31:47 [rcastaldo]
eh eh eh
21:32:55 [rscano]
ref Fog Index: http://www.juicystudio.com/fog/
21:34:39 [wendy]
where it says "no level 1 for this guideline" is disconcerting.
21:35:48 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:35:58 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg-and-Ben (25%), [IBM] (49%), JasonWhite (6%)
21:36:13 [wendy]
need something that at high-level gives visibility that don't have any level 1 criteria. not sure of mechanism.
21:36:41 [wendy]
temporary fix: those that don't have level 1 that we put [no level 1 criteria for this guideline]
21:36:48 [wendy]
headers in toc will be long.
21:36:59 [wendy]
ack john
21:37:17 [bcaldwell]
q+
21:37:18 [wendy]
is the normative form online or paper?
21:37:36 [wendy]
online
21:38:27 [sh1mmer]
q+
21:39:05 [sh1mmer]
q-
21:39:10 [wendy]
issue with headers (guidelines) being long. is there a way to break them up?
21:39:27 [wendy]
don't want to use guideline #
21:40:07 [wendy]
[no level 1 criteria] is shorter, but the issue of long guideline text still an issue.
21:40:19 [wendy]
ack bcaldwell
21:40:38 [wendy]
follow guideline w/number that indicates which levels are included.
21:40:46 [RylaDog]
RylaDog has joined #wai-wcag
21:41:08 [wendy]
e.g., (2,3) indicate that no level 1 criteria in this guideline.
21:41:39 [wendy]
don't put something on every guideline. what is it we want to get? if look at high-level view, get a list of minimum things that are required.
21:42:06 [wendy]
q+
21:43:02 [wendy]
group under each principle?
21:43:38 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
21:43:49 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Gregg-and-Ben (44%), JasonWhite (9%), Wendy (4%)
21:43:56 [wendy]
zakim, mute JasonWhite
21:43:56 [Zakim]
JasonWhite should now be muted
21:44:35 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:45:18 [Zakim]
-Bengt
21:45:19 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
21:45:25 [rscano]
?
21:45:28 [bengt]
?
21:46:03 [Zakim]
+??P8
21:46:16 [bengt]
zakim, ??P8 is Bengt_Farre
21:46:16 [Zakim]
+Bengt_Farre; got it
21:46:26 [bengt]
zakim, I am Bengt_Farre
21:46:26 [Zakim]
ok, bengt, I now associate you with Bengt_Farre
21:46:33 [bengt]
zakim, mute me
21:46:33 [Zakim]
Bengt_Farre should now be muted
21:48:09 [Zakim]
+??P5
21:48:11 [sh1mmer]
q+
21:48:15 [wendy]
usability testing, wcag 2.0 in context of rest of WAI site
21:48:19 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
21:48:21 [rscano]
zakim, ??P5 is Roberto_Scano
21:48:21 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano; got it
21:48:28 [rscano]
zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
21:48:28 [Zakim]
ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
21:48:31 [rscano]
zalim mute me
21:48:36 [rscano]
zakim, mute me
21:48:36 [Zakim]
Roberto_Scano should now be muted
21:50:28 [RylaDog]
q
21:50:32 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
21:50:35 [RylaDog]
q
21:50:52 [RylaDog]
q+
21:51:15 [wendy]
design techniques gateway based on tasks. need to find out what those tasks are.
21:51:26 [rscano]
zakim, RylaDog is 01Katie-Haritos-Shea
21:51:26 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named 'RylaDog'
21:52:16 [Zakim]
+??P16
21:52:20 [wendy]
techniques gateway needs to draw people in to get them to consider things they m ight not have intended to.
21:52:40 [wendy]
shouldn't hinder them from doing specific tasks, but encourage them to do more accessibility than they originally intended.
21:52:55 [wendy]
q?
21:52:58 [Zakim]
-??P16
21:53:02 [wendy]
ack Dave
21:53:30 [sh1mmer]
zakim, Katie-Haritos-Shea is RylaDog
21:53:30 [Zakim]
sorry, sh1mmer, I do not recognize a party named 'Katie-Haritos-Shea'
21:53:43 [wendy]
people seemed excited about views. depending on role, could see different information.
21:53:48 [rscano]
zakim, RylaDog is 01Katie_Haritos-Shea
21:53:48 [Zakim]
sorry, rscano, I do not recognize a party named 'RylaDog'
21:53:49 [sh1mmer]
zakim, Katie_Haritos-Shea is RylaDog
21:53:49 [Zakim]
+RylaDog; got it
21:53:58 [sh1mmer]
:P
21:54:12 [rscano]
touche
21:54:25 [wendy]
if we rely on techniques and outreach documents then need to pitch as "different views." i.e., people want to knowthat they can get the info they need."
21:54:54 [wendy]
q+ to say, "the need is to find the information needed for a person's task and background."
21:55:00 [wendy]
ack RylaDog
21:55:05 [wendy]
views only if they are very clear
21:55:22 [sh1mmer]
q+
21:55:25 [wendy]
viws only if they can not be mistaken for the full document
21:55:38 [wendy]
more interaction
21:56:20 [wendy]
nice if we could avoid multiple versions that repeat the guideline text. tables that summarize how things go by level and etc.
21:56:24 [Zakim]
-Loretta_Guarino_Reid
21:56:48 [rscano]
different CSS :)
21:57:29 [wendy]
most important issue, people come to find an answer to something.
21:57:46 [wendy]
"cut and paste" code.
21:59:11 [wendy]
q?
21:59:26 [wendy]
ack wendy
21:59:26 [Zakim]
wendy, you wanted to say, "the need is to find the information needed for a person's task and background."
22:00:34 [Yvette]
Maybe we can have something like a 'quicktour'
22:01:28 [rscano]
or like the QuickTips of WCAG 1.0
22:01:32 [Zakim]
-Avi_Arditti
22:02:13 [Yvette]
q+ to say "Why do you see policy makers as primary audience?"
22:02:19 [sh1mmer]
ack Tom
22:02:22 [GVAN]
Q+
22:03:04 [Yvette]
zakim, unmute me
22:03:04 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should no longer be muted
22:03:08 [wendy]
concern about views confuse people. "getting started" helps give context and help direct people to different types of info for diff tasks and background.
22:03:25 [rscano]
ack Yvette
22:03:25 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "Why do you see policy makers as primary audience?"
22:03:29 [wendy]
wcag 2.0 policy makers? getting started - could make them for different audiences.
22:03:42 [wendy]
e.g., "getting started for policy makers" "getting started for developers" etc.
22:04:12 [wendy]
both audiences have different introductory message.
22:04:16 [wendy]
ack gvan
22:05:10 [wendy]
in other document, had tables. do we need views? instead, crib sheets that give a list of just priority 1 items. it's a separate document. a summary of those things.
22:05:21 [Yvette]
What are "crib sheets"?
22:05:21 [wendy]
formatted to be different, it is different.
22:05:38 [wendy]
crib sheet is a quick overview.
22:05:43 [Yvette]
k, thx
22:05:50 [wendy]
a "cheat sheet" that covers important points.
22:06:55 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
22:07:06 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Kerstin (44%), RylaDog (4%), JasonWhite (4%)
22:07:24 [wendy]
like idea of different "getting started" for diff audiences.
22:07:32 [rscano]
me too
22:07:44 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
22:07:49 [Zakim]
-JasonWhite
22:08:03 [wendy]
checklists for WCAG 1.0 are probably more used than the entire document (in our use)
22:08:12 [wendy]
q?
22:08:14 [wendy]
ack kerstin
22:08:16 [wendy]
ack michael
22:08:29 [Zakim]
+??P0
22:08:30 [wendy]
crib sheet/checklist is a view.
22:08:36 [wendy]
they present different subsets of the content.
22:08:37 [rscano]
zakim, ??P0 is Roberto_Scano
22:08:37 [Zakim]
+Roberto_Scano; got it
22:08:41 [rscano]
zakim, I am Roberto_Scano
22:08:41 [Zakim]
ok, rscano, I now associate you with Roberto_Scano
22:08:50 [Yvette]
zakim, mute me
22:08:50 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink should now be muted
22:08:58 [wendy]
we want guidelines, checklists, cheat sheets (list of guidelines w/no other materials)
22:09:13 [wendy]
however, those views aren't well-specified and how they work with each other.
22:09:32 [Yvette]
q+ to say "I would like a myths document"
22:09:45 [wendy]
make sure all stay aligned w/each other.
22:10:47 [wendy]
short summaries of key requirements sections is helpful.
22:11:09 [Zakim]
+JasonWhite
22:11:19 [wendy]
having the document w/pieces that disappear can be confusing.
22:11:35 [wendy]
ack yvette
22:11:36 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "I would like a myths document"
22:12:35 [wendy]
in getting started, would like "myths" document.
22:12:51 [m3mSEA]
q+
22:13:16 [m3mSEA]
q-
22:13:54 [wendy]
from EOWG deliverables: Add page to business case suite on myths about Web accessibility
22:13:57 [wendy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/EO-Deliverables.html
22:13:59 [wendy]
ack john
22:14:12 [wendy]
providing summaries and quick references is consistent with the guidelines.
22:14:29 [wendy]
providing alt ways to move through document and providing for people with reading and learning difficulties.
22:14:49 [wendy]
gregg? could we spend the last 15 minutes on html techniques?
22:15:07 [wendy]
:)
22:15:09 [rscano]
:)
22:15:44 [wendy]
===
22:15:48 [Yvette]
q+ to say "What would be the best way to give feedback on many points of the techniques draft?"
22:16:25 [wendy]
techniques - we're working on a draft to publish to http://www.w3.org/TR/
22:16:30 [wendy]
a draft was published last week
22:16:41 [Yvette]
Link to draft: http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/WCAG20/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20031020.html
22:16:54 [wendy]
any issues to fix before publish to TR?
22:17:03 [wendy]
tried to put in place-holders for all techniques that have come up.
22:17:19 [wendy]
every technique has been split out onto own.
22:17:30 [wendy]
some techniques are uncertain. some have little text.
22:17:40 [wendy]
lots of ednotes to highlight issues.
22:18:00 [wendy]
couple of issues: change wording of a few checklist items (they should be t/f statements)
22:18:21 [wendy]
couple of paragraphs to add.
22:18:27 [wendy]
other than that, ready.
22:18:40 [wendy]
q?
22:18:49 [sh1mmer]
ack Yvette
22:18:49 [Zakim]
Yvette_Hoitink, you wanted to say "What would be the best way to give feedback on many points of the techniques draft?"
22:18:50 [wendy]
ack yvette
22:18:58 [sh1mmer]
sorry wendy
22:19:01 [wendy]
no worries
22:19:13 [wendy]
several emails or one big one?
22:19:53 [wendy]
do any of these issues stop it from going to tr?
22:21:35 [Yvette]
I will read it thoroughly tomorrow morning, then
22:22:55 [Yvette]
I don't think I have any show stoppers
22:23:29 [wendy]
zakim, who's making noise?
22:23:44 [Zakim]
wendy, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: Tom (19%), Kerstin (15%), Michael_Cooper (44%)
22:24:08 [sh1mmer]
Zakim, mute me
22:24:08 [Zakim]
Tom should now be muted
22:24:14 [sh1mmer]
sorry for the kb rattling
22:24:24 [wendy]
ack kerstin
22:25:00 [wendy]
request to discuss html techniques in thursday call
22:25:44 [wendy]
we need "blocker" comments by tomorrow (friday) at the latest.
22:27:13 [wendy]
abbreviation example: there is <th abbr="social security number">ss#</th> should be other way around
22:27:29 [wendy]
action: michael will fix html techniques
22:27:35 [wendy]
kerstin has comments will send after TR
22:28:56 [wendy]
no objections to timeline
22:29:00 [wendy]
ack kerstin
22:29:20 [wendy]
resolution: can move forward
22:29:29 [Zakim]
-RylaDog
22:29:31 [sh1mmer]
zakim, who's on the phone
22:29:31 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'who's on the phone', sh1mmer
22:29:51 [sh1mmer]
zakim, who's on the phone?
22:29:51 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Yvette_Hoitink, John_Slatin, JasonWhite (muted), [MIT342], Dave_MacDonald, Gregg-and-Ben, Wendy, Tom, Kerstin, [IBM], Michael_Cooper, Bengt_Farre (muted),
22:29:52 [wendy]
===
22:29:54 [Zakim]
... Roberto_Scano
22:29:57 [wendy]
testability action item
22:31:18 [wendy]
action: andi summarize testability notes and send to list
22:31:35 [wendy]
action: kerstin? find time to meet with cynthia, andi, and wendy to finish testability action item
22:35:05 [Zakim]
-Kerstin
22:35:06 [Zakim]
-Yvette_Hoitink
22:35:07 [Zakim]
-[IBM]
22:35:08 [Zakim]
-Michael_Cooper
22:35:08 [Zakim]
-Wendy
22:35:09 [Zakim]
-Dave_MacDonald
22:35:09 [Zakim]
-Gregg-and-Ben
22:35:10 [Zakim]
-[MIT342]
22:35:15 [rellero]
bye
22:35:17 [Zakim]
-Roberto_Scano
22:35:19 [wendy]
ciao
22:35:21 [Yvette]
Wendy, could you update the workgroup page regarding the face-to-face meetings?
22:35:22 [rscano]
bye
22:35:23 [rellero]
ciao
22:35:26 [rcastaldo]
ciao
22:35:33 [wendy]
yvette - yes. sorry. the page got out of date.
22:35:33 [silvia]
bye!
22:35:41 [Zakim]
-JasonWhite
22:35:49 [wendy]
zakim, bye
22:35:49 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
22:35:52 [Yvette]
I only now heard from Roberto Scano next year will be Cannes, not Brussels :-(
22:35:53 [wendy]
RRSAgent, bye
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
I see 3 open action items:
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: michael will fix html techniques [1]
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/30-wai-wcag-irc#T22-27-29
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: andi summarize testability notes and send to list [2]
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/30-wai-wcag-irc#T22-31-18
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: kerstin? find time to meet with cynthia, andi, and wendy to finish testability action item [3]
22:35:53 [RRSAgent]
recorded in http://www.w3.org/2003/10/30-wai-wcag-irc#T22-31-35